The Earth Marshals... the next action theme?

[James Lucas Jones]

The problem is the world view being put forth here is very one sided. I know in the US the theme you propose could easily be seen as having a "Greedy Right Wing Republican Corporations are Evil" vibe going with it. And there are a lot of subtle queues to that in the designs. And also remember there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. This theme seems to be dancing a bit over it.

Parts of the fringe Right would almost certainly freak out, just look at the lame comments about the recent Muppets film and its "anti-Big Business" stance. But it's no different than elements in the fringe Left's unreasonable reaction to LEGO's Friends line.

I personally don't think this theme would be all that controversial.

[Doctor_ocks]

While the sets are well designed and the presentation is great, if I saw this on the shelf I'd pass it up based on what I see as politically one-sided propaganda - "Fossil fuels are bad and so are the people who use them." To say that this is neutral and finding common ground is disingenuous. You've drawn a line in the sand and clearly labeled one side as good and one side is bad. What if the theme was reversed and the good guys were small business owners trying to provide for their families and the bad guys were portrayed as extreme environmentalists who blow up buildings? In my opinion, this theme dumbs down the argument and puts both sides in two very radical camps.

The problem is reality. The idea is too real for Lego to touch with a ten foot pole. Lego sticks with fantastical stories with basic 'moral' themes that most people can get on board with - Starwars, LoTR, etc. If they do use reality, like with the city/police sets, they still use those basic moral themes - stealing is wrong, hurting people is wrong, etc.

I'd also like to add that it's not the job of Lego (or any other toy companies) to provide life lessons to children - besides in the broadest of senses. That's the job of their parents and the people around them who love them. There's a fine line between teaching children HOW to think versus WHAT to think.

All that being said, you and your friend are very talented. I'd enjoy seeing more ideas come from you.

[Yatkuu]

Thank you for the feedback, I'm afraid we disagree on a lot of things but at least I'm glad you like the models!

I think you are missing our point of the good versus bad dichotomy. The fossil energies are only one key point of the bad guys identity. The general idea is to portray a faction of individuals that do not respect the nature in extreme ways. In other words, driving a huge SUV that pumps fuel like mad isn’t making you a bad guy in this reality. Dumping oil in the ocean and cutting down trees for the fun is.

If you fear that people might feel offended by the reality depicted in these sets I'm afraid the problem is not with the sets, it's with the people. In a way it reminds me the controversy with Jabba's palace. The issue is not with the set itself, it's with the people who see the set as an insult.

The problem is reality. The idea is too real for Lego to touch with a ten foot pole.

What about this?

http://education.leg...-challenge-set/

I'm not making this up, this DACTA set is called "Green City".

I would also make one last point regarding the question whether LEGO should do this or not. Anyone who thinks this is inappropriate for LEGO, that it is not their role or purpose, please remember that the concept of this “open call for ideas” is to gather feedback and ideas on new territories.

Our idea is meant to be something different than what LEGO is already doing. By nature it is going to challenge some boundaries so please try to consider this with an open mind. Instead of having a debate around what makes this idea wrong why don't we try to elaborate of what would make it better?

[Vindicare]

What about this?

http://education.leg...-challenge-set/

I'm not making this up, this DACTA set is called "Green City".

This is worlds apart from your theme concept. That set (appears) to be a wind turbine build with a lot of pieces. It's not trying to make a point, except with the turbine and wind power, which I don't think anyone could argue that wind power is "green". To me, it's a lot different than what your theme is proposing.

[Yatkuu]

This is worlds apart from your theme concept. That set (appears) to be a wind turbine build with a lot of pieces. It's not trying to make a point, except with the turbine and wind power, which I don't think anyone could argue that wind power is "green". To me, it's a lot different than what your theme is proposing.

You are misinterpreting my words. Of course it is different, I never said it was similar or comparable to this action theme idea.

Doctor_ocks stated that this whole concept was too real for LEGO - I was only trying to argue that on the contrary the ecology theme is something they are willing to touch within the right context.

[Faefrost]

Thank you for the feedback, I'm afraid we disagree on a lot of things but at least I'm glad you like the models!

I think you are missing our point of the good versus bad dichotomy. The fossil energies are only one key point of the bad guys identity. The general idea is to portray a faction of individuals that do not respect the nature in extreme ways. In other words, driving a huge SUV that pumps fuel like mad isn’t making you a bad guy in this reality. Dumping oil in the ocean and cutting down trees for the fun is.

If you fear that people might feel offended by the reality depicted in these sets I'm afraid the problem is not with the sets, it's with the people. In a way it reminds me the controversy with Jabba's palace. The issue is not with the set itself, it's with the people who see the set as an insult.

What about this?

http://education.leg...-challenge-set/

I'm not making this up, this DACTA set is called "Green City".

The Dacta set is perhaps the polar opposite of what your theme is putting forth. That set you link is designed to teach and work with energy efficiency. Getting more from existing energy sources at the least cost and lowest impact to the environment. That is actually one of those areas where all sides agree. It is the purpose of teaching refinement of existing technologies and development of new. It illustrates how much energy you can get at what costs or tradeoffs.

your theme is designed to teach kids that the current most efficient, least impactful mechanisms of energy (fossil fuels) , is pure evil and must be fought by a team of super environmentalists. It ignores the very real and very important trade offs. And I'm sorry but it reeks of far left environmentalist propaganda. Which is a shame. The builds are gorgeous. The model design work is first rate and the color choices are amazing.

[Doctor_ocks]

Thank you for the feedback, I'm afraid we disagree

Yeah I think so too but thanks for responding in a mature fashion and not taking the arguments too personally.

[Ardelon]

First of all, nice sets! I especially like the Stinker vehicles (my fav is the Juggernaut), they seem to have more personality than the good guys! The good guys are lacking a base, though (I assume the ship is the Stinker base).

I’m kind of surprised at the critisim of the alleged political aspect. It’s not like the bad guys are some regular energy or logging company going about its business producing and providing fuel and energy. These are bullies that like to pollute and destroy the environment for a quick buck, or for the fun of it. To claim the theme has a political agenda is like saying the Castle theme is pushing a monarchist agenda, with all their noble kings. Polluters are a stereotypical kind of villain, just like heroic kings and knights are a stereotypical kind of good guy. And it’s pretty tough to deny that fossil fuels are big pollutants, whatever the efficiency or reliability of alternative energy sources. So yes, the bad guys use fossil fuels, but it’s just one of their weapons, along with circular sawblades, harpoons, or “oil dumping units” – (hopefully) even the biggest “drill baby drill” supporter wouldn’t advocate dumping oil into the ocean. It’s not really a left-right thing either – while environmentalism is generally (though not at all exclusively) associated with the left, so is protecting the jobs of coal miners, for example. On the other hand the private sector (associated with the right) is pretty strong in inventing and pushing cleaner technologies.

I wonder if it’s a cultural thing, since it mostly seems to be our colleagues from the US who bring up the political aspects of the theme in this thread. AFAIK, this debate is more current in the US than Europe or other parts of the developed world, where the preferability of alternative energy over fossil fuels seems to be a given. But then, Captain Planet was a US production. And if that made it past the moral guardians, I don’t think this project would face any such hurdles, apart from the “LEGO Friends are sexist” types – in which case TLG could use the publicity.

As for my own personal bias, there should be a third faction that would kick both the other factions’ behinds with nuclear powered vehicles … The Atom is your friend!

Edited January 28, 2013 by Ardelon

[Faefrost]

Captain Planet was privately created and produced by a fairly whacked out crazy billionaire with longstanding political views. (The whacked out craziness has little to do with the political views. The politics merely provides a direction to point Ted Turners insanity in. But at least he is fun to watch.) Since WB bought out Ted Turners properties the IP has been fairly well ignored.

[Doctor_ocks]

To claim the theme has a political agenda is like saying the Castle theme is pushing a monarchist agenda, with all their noble kings.

Hmmmm I don't see that. What if I created the opposite of this? What if the bad guys, The Huggers, caved in coal mines, blew up oil platforms, and defaced the outside of the modular building sets with pro-clean energy rhetoric? What if the good guys were coal miners, oil workers and small business owners who formed the 'Free Enterprise Police' - a group of Heros who take down the Huggers. Would you guys all support that? I mean come on, we all can agree that destroying property is wrong cant we? That's all my new theme is about...there's no hidden agenda or political motivation there. Granted, my new theme would make for some lame sets lol.

If nothing else, the Earth Marshal theme would drum up some attention as evidenced here!

Captain Planet was privately created and produced by a fairly whacked out crazy billionaire with longstanding political views. (The whacked out craziness has little to do with the political views. The politics merely provides a direction to point Ted Turners insanity in. But at least he is fun to watch.) Since WB bought out Ted Turners properties the IP has been fairly well ignored.

This.

[Dr.Cogg]

I think if you were to change the Villians into all machine , less people would have a problem with it, here's an example backstory: Machines built to aid use ,turned on use taking are lands and resources and leaving distruction in their wake ,but lucky for us we were prepared (Earth Marshals).

[Yatkuu]

The Dacta set is perhaps the polar opposite of what your theme is putting forth. That set you link is designed to teach and work with energy efficiency. Getting more from existing energy sources at the least cost and lowest impact to the environment. That is actually one of those areas where all sides agree. It is the purpose of teaching refinement of existing technologies and development of new. It illustrates how much energy you can get at what costs or tradeoffs.

Thank you for the explanation, I know very little about these Education sets. As said before I was only trying to argue that the ecology theme was no stranger to LEGO. Of course this action theme idea is very different but I think that down the line they do share some common ground. The use of renewable and alternate energies is one of the key points of the good guys.

your theme is designed to teach kids that the current most efficient, least impactful mechanisms of energy (fossil fuels) , is pure evil and must be fought by a team of super environmentalists. It ignores the very real and very important trade offs. And I'm sorry but it reeks of far left environmentalist propaganda. Which is a shame.

Wow, now hold on a second. I never said my theme was meant to teach kids that the use of fossil energies is pure evil. I don’t know how you got to that conclusion but it was never my intention to portray something like that. “Left environmentalist propaganda”? Really?

To give you a little extra background info on the genesis of this project the use of fossil energies was at first only a way to visually differentiate the vehicles of the two factions. The prominence of large exhaust pipes, oversized tanks.. as opposed to sleek and modern designs. Now if you see this as a critic of modern society that is relying too much on fossil energies I think you are reading more than I ever intended to tell.

I think the analogy given by Ardelon is very good. The “Castle” theme is no more a pro-monarchy lecture than this theme is about radical ecology.

You know, if we start dissecting these themes too much we will always find something to say. Another example… how come did no one complain about the fact that Chima is using wolves, ravens and crocodiles as the bad guys? What did these poor species do to deserve such a treatment?

I don’t know if our different cultures could explain our different perception of this but it is an interesting point. I presented this theme in the exact same fashion on the French forum Brick Pirate and it certainly did not generate such a controversy!

The good guys are lacking a base, though (I assume the ship is the Stinker base).

I started designing a base of the Marshals but never finished it. It was a mix of a lab and a bio-dome. For the bad guys the oil tanker/aircraft carrier is indeed their mobile base.

As for my own personal bias, there should be a third faction that would kick both the other factions’ behinds with nuclear powered vehicles … The Atom is your friend!

Thanks for the great input! I like the idea of the nuclear powered vehicles! How about a Delorean - no, wait, LEGO is already making one!

I think if you were to change the Villians into all machine , less people would have a problem with it, here's an example backstory: Machines built to aid use ,turned on use taking are lands and resources and leaving distruction in their wake ,but lucky for us we were prepared (Earth Marshals).

That’s an interesting point. Machines would have the advantage to be “nameless enemies”.

My only concern with this is that you need a minimum of characterization for a theme to work and I’m not sure we could achieve that with machines. In other word you would need to have machines with personality. Let’s take the example of Battlestar Galactica if the only enemies were the basic "toasters" Cylons it would become boring as hell in a heartbeat. That’s why they added the humanoid Cylons.

[Ardelon]

Hmmmm I don't see that. What if I created the opposite of this? What if the bad guys, The Huggers, caved in coal mines, blew up oil platforms, and defaced the outside of the modular building sets with pro-clean energy rhetoric? What if the good guys were coal miners, oil workers and small business owners who formed the 'Free Enterprise Police' - a group of Heros who take down the Huggers. Would you guys all support that? I mean come on, we all can agree that destroying property is wrong cant we? That's all my new theme is about...there's no hidden agenda or political motivation there. Granted, my new theme would make for some lame sets lol.

That would be a tough sell! The thing is, there is no automatic link between destroying property and promoting environmentalism, while pollution (e.g. through fossil fuels) is a way to destroy the environment, so you would have much a harder time claiming the theme would be apolitical. But if you managed, sure, I could support it.

@ Dr.Cogg:

That idea could work.

[Flying Ace]

Zodiac Coma = Amoco Cadiz. I hadn't heard of the ship before this, but I was able to extract "Amoco" from the name and Cadiz was the most likely spelling of the remaining letters. For the US market, an anagram of Exxon Valdez would be a much more accessible reference. Or Deepwater Horizon.

I really like the design and thought behind the theme. I think presentations of environmentalism are always going to be subject to criticism but that's not a reason to avoid them. The recent Lorax movie is a good example. I read a lot of the criticism but when I saw the movie I thought it wasn't really justified. The movie is not an improvement on the original book and shorter TV special, but it's not awful either.

This theme reminds me of an animated show in the USA on PBS called Wild Kratts that features two brothers putting on suits/accessories that mimic what animals can do (dolphins, bats, etc) and fighting against villains who are rather broadly comic anti-environmentalists (similar to the "villains" in Disney's Kim Possible), while presenting lessons in biology and ecology in the process. It's a very entertaining and engaging show and it has a lot of cool vehicle/item designs that would work well in LEGO.

[Yatkuu]

Zodiac Coma = Amoco Cadiz

Ladies and Gentleman... we have a winner! If anyone is interested in the tragic story of this ship, here is the wiki link: Amoco Cadiz.

Well done Flying Ace and thank you for this great feedback.

I did not know about this "Wild Kratts" show, I just watched an episode on youtube... and it's good! I love how the bad guy explains that he has "rhino-dozers" so he can dig up trees and flatten things to build parking lots.

This is pretty much the same type of reasoning I had in mind for the Stinkers, pointless destruction of nature for their own profit.