Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[UsernameMDM]

Amended Tactician.

[Waterbrick Down]

So... Skirmisher? They seem pretty similar to me.

Yes and no. Skirmisher while functioning as a buff class, never has the option to do anything else. Clerics can choose to heal, Druids can choose to nurture, Alchemists can choose to use items, Minstrels can choose to sing, Caveliers can choose to buff. Edited April 22, 2016 by Waterbrick Down

[JimBee]

Yes and no. Skirmisher while functioning as a buff class, never has the option to do anything else. Cleric's can choose to heal, Druid's can choose to nurture, alchemists can choose to use items, minstrels can choose to sing, Caveliers can choose to buff.

Fair enough, though I think Alchemist, Skirmisher, Minstrel and even Chi Monk round out the support classes nicely in the expert class level. I do like the speech rolls.

Looking through some of the old ideas in this topic, I still like the Demonologist master class I adapted from Pie's idea. It's pretty complicated, but I'm a big fan of the way it uses health to attack instead of ether. Not sure if spellcasting fits in. It could definitely be simplified, anyone think the class would be worth exploring more?

[Rider Raider]

Perhaps Veni Vidi Vici could function like the Guardian Knight's shield skill combined with the Bezerker's shield skill combined with the Raider's shield skill?

[Flipz]

So... Skirmisher? They seem pretty similar to me.

Interesting idea, it's a little bit like the Chi Monk's SHIELD roll. It might be a little OP for a 4 roll but it seems to suit the theme of the class, which is support/offensive (like Berserker's SHIELD).

Yes and no. Skirmisher while functioning as a buff class, never has the option to do anything else. Clerics can choose to heal, Druids can choose to nurture, Alchemists can choose to use items, Minstrels can choose to sing, Caveliers can choose to buff.

Fair enough, though I think Alchemist, Skirmisher, Minstrel and even Chi Monk round out the support classes nicely in the expert class level. I do like the speech rolls.

Looking through some of the old ideas in this topic, I still like the Demonologist master class I adapted from Pie's idea. It's pretty complicated, but I'm a big fan of the way it uses health to attack instead of ether. Not sure if spellcasting fits in. It could definitely be simplified, anyone think the class would be worth exploring more?

Again, though, Minstrel and Chi Monk use Ether (and the latter is more of an offensive Cleric class than a true support class). Alchemist is a physical support class, but it functions very differently than Cavalier. Skirmisher is a passive support class, and it functions as a tank rather than an attacking class--again, another reason why Cavalier would fill a very unique niche. (And additionally, Skirmisher is specifically unavailable unless Doc starts hosting again, he's been very insistent in the past that it only be awarded to those who perform exceptional service for the Lion Knights.)

And if we're going to pull for the Master class ideas again, I still want to push Mystic Warden.

Speaking of classes, does Paragon look absurdly underpowered (and also boring) compared to Prophet, or is it just me?

Paragon's Shield is Guardian Angel, Frenzy, and maybe stealing gold rolled up into one.

Prophet's Shield is one to six Magic Bursts, and as many Roots of Life is necessary to heal everyone to perfect health. And piles of ether just in case you don't have any left.

I feel like the Shield needs a straight buff, the basic rolls should all have the 'steal gold on defeat' ability, and Truce needs to get changed, because that could thoroughly screw over any battle in which the heroes are on a timer to beat enemies, which happens fairly often.

Thoughts?

Maybe, but I feel like the main Master Classes should be more appealing rather than less so. Prophet seems like it fills its role as super-powered Sage well, but Paragon feels like a weird medley of different Shields and kind of underwhelming basic rolls.

You have a point, and now that we've seen both classes in action the imbalance is evident.

Would you guys rather have "Veni Vidi Vici" deal more damage or have additional effects?

And would "Truce" work if it was optional? Or would you rather have something else replacing it, like some sort of gold-gaining ability?

How about change it from "Truce" to "Tactician":

Tactician - Paragon gives a positive effect to a random ally. Effect and ally are determined by a separate dice roll. If the ally already has that positive effect, it goes to the next ally in the Battle Order that does not have that effect. In addition, a random enemy receives a negative effect, with the same mechanic applied the opposite of the ally's positive effect.

Lucky - Jinxed

Encourage - Weakened

Blessed - Cursed

Hastened - Slowed

Inspired - Fragile

Nimble - Petrified

or something like that.

Maybe Veni Vidi Vici reduces the levels of the enemies it hits?

I like optional Truce, and replacing it with a buffing ability like MDM suggests seems suitable for the class.

I'm with MDM on this one. His amended Tactician seems a little complicated, but it's definitely better than the actively detrimental Truce. If Tactician is too much, perhaps Truce could be changed to preventing Free Hits against the entire party? (Yeah, stealing from Regulator, but now that Pie's left the class I doubt we'll see Regulators again, sadly.)

I don't like the idea of Veni Vidi Vici reducing enemy levels, I do think it should deal significantly more damage. I also agree with Pie's idea of letting the "gain Gold per enemy defeat" ability apply to all of the class' rolls, it fits the nature of the class and makes attacking even more appealing.

Perhaps Veni Vidi Vici could function like the Guardian Knight's shield skill combined with the Bezerker's shield skill combined with the Raider's shield skill?

Ehh...I've always disliked the Berserker's SHIELD skill, and to a lesser extent Berserker in general. Neither Black Knight's nor Berserker's SHIELD-skills seem particularly well-suited to Paragon, IMO they're both better left to their respective Advanced Classes.

[Flipz]

I'm going to take a crack at re-writing WBD's Cavalier slightly, incorporating all the most recent feedback:

(Requires Cavalier's Saddle)

Cavaliers rush into battle atop their mighty steeds inspiring their party to further glory.

Health Bonus: +14

Weapons: Lances, Great Swords, Long Swords, Hammers, Maces

Job Traits: Mounted – Cavaliers are permanently hastened as long as their mount is sufficiently healthy (see MOUNTS below); Extended Reach – Cavaliers may strike enemies in the back row with full strength; Animal Talk(See Ranger)

Battle style: Overpowering: Cavaliers dole out piercing blows foiling even the most thorough of enemy defenses and tactics.

1. SHIELD: Heroic Charge – The Cavalier leads the party in a routing of the enemy forces dealing damage equal to their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP to all enemies in the target’s row; if no target was chosen, the Cavalier's Mount recovers up to two Strength instead. Additionally, the party member immediately after the Cavalier is guaranteed to roll a SHIELD, the following party member a CRITICAL HIT (or equivalent), and the following party member a HIT (or equivalent).

2. CRITICAL INTREPID HIT/ INVIGORATING SPEECH: The Cavalier does damage with strength equal to two times their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier can give an invigorating speech, increasing the Level, HP, and SP of the Cavalier and the party members directly above and below them in the Battle Order by 15 during the next round.

3. INTREPID HIT/ROUSING SPEECH: The Cavalier does damage with strength equal to their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier can give a rousing speech, increasing the Level, HP, and SP of the Cavalier and the party members directly above and below them in the Battle Order by 10 during the next round.

4. INTREPID COUNTER/GALLANT SPEECH: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent’s attack but counters with an attack that does damage with strength equal to their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier takes the next attack directed against another party member and gives a gallant speech increasing the Level, HP, and SP of the Cavalier and the party members directly above and below them in the Battle Order by 5 during the next round.

5. DAMAGE/FORGETTABLE SPEECH: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent's attack. Alternatively the Cavalier gives a forgettable speech that fails to accomplish anything.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/DEMORALIZING SPEECH: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent’s special attack. Alternatively the Cavalier accidentally demoralizes their allies, decreasing the Level, HP, and SP of the Cavalier and the party members directly above and below them in the Battle Order by 5 during the next round.

MOUNTS:

Upon training in the class, the Cavalier must choose a mount; this mount may be of any non-Dragon species the character is capable of riding. The Cavalier's mount has strength equal to the Cavalier's number of usable Artifact slots (i.e. Mount Strength 4 at Level 30). Any attack, Special Damage, or Free Hit that strikes the Cavalier reduces the mount's strength by 1, even if the Cavalier's SP reduces the damage to 0. The mount cannot be healed in battle, but automatically heals to full strength at the battle's conclusion.

I'm still not 100% sure on the SHIELD, I'm tempted to take it down even further to just Level, considering how powerful the roll manipulation is. I was originally only going to let the Mount Strength recover by 1, but then realized a particularly unlucky Cavalier (*cough*anycharacterplayedbyLegonater*cough* ) could potentially lose the benefit of the steed's recovery immediately after getting their mount back from a SHIELD and potentially mess up the party's planned Free Hits; recovering 2 strength lets them roll Counter, Damage, or Special Damage on their first action while still being able to attack again, thus making it slightly more reliable to strategize around.

I feel like Mounts might need more elaboration; I was originally going to list it as "any non-flying species the character is capable of riding", but then I thought about people wanting to ride griffins and pegasi and alicorns, and changed it to only non-Dragons (so as not step on Dragoon's toes). What do you guys think? Do flying mounts step on other classes' toes (i.e. Winged Warrior's Fly job trait/Dragoon's dragon companion), or are they fine for this class?

[Rider Raider]

I like it. I don't see Timothy becoming one, but the idea and rolls are very well thought out. Try I might, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it besides that the Shield skill would render Lucky and Hastened useless for that round.

[StickFig]

I'm glad someone else noticed this. I think the Prophet should get nerfed instead of buffing the Paragon, though.

You shut your mouth!

[Waterbrick Down]

Thought I'd make this look a little more formal:

Edited April 23, 2016 by Waterbrick Down

[Flipz]

Thought I'd make this look a little more formal:

*snip*

Ooh, pretty!

...you know, it's a shame we didn't get this all worked up before 102. This would have been the perfect class for Russel & Pigley, and that would have been a very nice test for the class. I'll have to come up with a suitable excuse/NPC to test this out in the future.

[Enceladus]

Ooh, pretty!

...you know, it's a shame we didn't get this all worked up before 102. This would have been the perfect class for Russel & Pigley, and that would have been a very nice test for the class. I'll have to come up with a suitable excuse/NPC to test this out in the future.

But only players with the animal talk ability would be able to understand Russell's speeches...

[Flipz]

But only players with the animal talk ability would be able to understand Russell's speeches...

...hmm...welp, time to go ask a glaringly basic rules question I actually don't know the answer to.

[Yzalirk]

I think the concept of the Cavalier class is pretty cool, not sure if I would choose it though because how would Goliath ride a horse?

Would the player be allowed to name their mount or would it just be called "Horse," for example?

[Palathadric]

I'm sure you can name it if you want to.

[Rider Raider]

I think the concept of the Cavalier class is pretty cool, not sure if I would choose it though because how would Goliath ride a horse?

Goliath could ride a cow, perhaps? Edited April 23, 2016 by Rider Raider

[Yzalirk]

Goliath could ride a cow, perhaps?

A mechanical bull would be cool.

[Waterbrick Down]

I think the concept of the Cavalier class is pretty cool, not sure if I would choose it though because how would Goliath ride a horse?

Would the player be allowed to name their mount or would it just be called "Horse," for example?

Mounts would not be required to be horses, just non-dragons. Flying mounts or swimming mounts wouldn't really offer any mechanical advantage, just fluff.

[Yzalirk]

Mounts would not be required to be horses, just non-dragons. Flying mounts or swimming mounts wouldn't really offer any mechanical advantage, just fluff.

I was only using horses as an example because they are pretty generic.

[Zepher]

I liked playing alongside a Paragon (Rex) though I agree truce needs to change! I'm actually in the school of thought of nerfing Prophet - it really looks ridiculously over powered to me, and I do not look forward to hosting them, for pretty much the same reasons that Pie voiced. It basically just restarts the battle for the heroes - give it a nostrum and theres no way to lose.

[JimBee]

I liked playing alongside a Paragon (Rex) though I agree truce needs to change! I'm actually in the school of thought of nerfing Prophet - it really looks ridiculously over powered to me, and I do not look forward to hosting them, for pretty much the same reasons that Pie voiced. It basically just restarts the battle for the heroes - give it a nostrum and theres no way to lose.

I'm starting to agree about Prophet being nerfed just a tad. Recovering 25 ether is a lot. I think the SHIELD roll should be either the [Magic Burst/AoE attack + Roots of Life] OR gain 25 ether, with the former being spells->nurture in order until ether runs out.

On that note, I've been thinking for awhile that the standard Meditate roll is pretty underpowered. 1 ether doesn't do much especially at the higher levels. Especially, Paladin isn't that great because of Meditate. Sure, it has one of the best SHIELD rolls in the game, but it's gotta be frustrating having only 2 hit rolls. And Paladins don't heal very often. I dunno, I feel like Meditate should restore a little more ether. Or, Paladin should have a different roll.

Also, I don't think I brought this up after 139, but Marauder is awesome. Very powerful and good at both damage-dealing and crowd control, but also balanced due to Dual Damage/Special Damage. Definitely my favorite class I've played as so far, with Alchemist coming in second.

[Zepher]

Yeah, I liked hosting Marauders! I felt like both they and Dragoons were incredibly powerful, BUT in this case I'd say we just had powerful players playing as them - and they didn't ever break battles (well, Guts did, but he always does ).

[StickFig]

I'm actually in the school of thought of nerfing Prophet.

I'm starting to agree about Prophet being nerfed just a tad.

Nooooooooooooooooooo!

[Jebediahs]

The Guild of Invision has been busy conducting Shadeaux funded experiments to combat their oldest of rivals...

Mage Hunter

These hunters target a very specific prey.

Requires membership with the Crescent Union.

* Additional Health: +9

* Weapons: Mage Hunters depend on weapons particularly adept at cutting down mages such as great swords, long swords, axes, scythes, whips and crossbows.

* Job Trait(s): Elemental Tenacity - The mage hunter absorbs elemental damage but suffers double damage from non-elemental attacks.

- The mage hunter generates an aura that can silence friend and foe alike.

Sense Magic - The mage hunter has the ability to successfully track and determine the direction of magical objects and beings.

* Battle Style: Antimagic - Mage Hunters despise magical things.

1. SHIELD:

Dampening Field

- The mage hunter’s aura fluctuates. If an aura is active and pointed at the enemy party, all enemies are afflicted with the weakened effect for the duration of the aura. Targets already weakened become fragile. If the mage hunter’s aura is active and pointed towards an allied party, the party’s positive status effects and immunities are nullified(removed) for the duration of the aura. The mage hunter’s aura is extended (or reactivated) for only one round but the mage hunter may choose the direction of the aura.

2. STRONG DISPELLING STRIKE/STRONG AURA EXTENSION: The mage hunter hits his target with strength equal to weapon power multiplied by two then added to level. The total damage of the attack is multiplied by two for each positive status effect the target has which also removes each effect from the target (i.e. (WP:15x2 + Level 30) x 4 (two immunities/positive status effects on target) = 240 damage + removal of positive status effects). Optionally, the mage hunter may choose to extend (or reactivate) his silence aura for three rounds. The extension has a 1/6 chance of reversing the direction of the aura.

3. DISPELLING STRIKE/AURA EXTENSION: The mage hunter hits his target with strength equal to weapon power added to level. The total damage of the attack is multiplied by two for each positive status effect the target has which also removes each effect from the target (i.e. (WP:15 + Level 30) x 4 (two immunities/positive status effects on target) = 180 damage + removal of positive status effects). Optionally, the mage hunter may choose to extend (or reactivate) his silence aura for three rounds. The extension has a 2/6 chance of reversing the direction of the aura.

4. LESSER DISPELLING STRIKE/WEAK AURA EXTENSION: The mage hunter hits his target with strength equal to weapon power. The total damage of the attack is multiplied by two for each positive status effect the target has which also removes each effect from the target (i.e. WP:15 x 4 (two immunities/positive status effects on target) = 60 damage + removal of positive status effects). Optionally, the mage hunter may choose to extend (or reactivate) his silence aura for two rounds. The extension has a 3/6 chance of reversing the direction of the aura.

5. DAMAGE/WEAKER AURA EXTENSION: The mage hunter is struck by his opponent’s attack. Optionally, the mage hunter may choose to extend (or reactivate) his silence aura for two rounds. The extension has a 4/6 chance of reversing the direction of the aura.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/WEAKEST AURA EXTENSION: The mage hunter is struck by his opponent’s special skill. Optionally, the mage hunter may choose to extend (or reactivate) his silence aura for two rounds. The extension has a 5/6 chance of reversing the direction of the aura.

MAGE HUNTER AURA:

The mage hunter generates an aura of silence before the first round of combat that lasts for three rounds. The aura is directed towards the enemy party, preventing the enemies from using their special skills. The mage hunter may choose to spend a round extending the duration of (or reactivating) his aura but risks the chance of his aura changing direction. Aura direction always begins at the enemy party, with the first direction change pointed towards the Allied party, silencing them for the aura’s duration unless they are immune to silence. For battles with multiple enemy/allied parties the QM will determine the direction change pattern.

When the aura is reactivated, it points in the direction opposite of the last active aura. For multiple parties, the reactivated aura points towards the next party in the sequence from the last activated aura.

[Flipz]

Goliath could ride a cow, perhaps?

I have this hilarious image in my mind now of some character (preferably a leprechaun or a gnome) bribing a particularly lazy and apathetic troll to be their mount. xD

RE: Prophet: I still feel like Prophet hasn't gotten a decent run-through. No offense to Kinto, but the battles in 137 were not well suited to show off a Prophet's strength, especially since it was a small party to begin with and they kept splitting up on top of it, not to mention the party already having a healer besides Althior to keep everyone topped up, so Althior only had to continue to be a glorified Mage. Everyone is still crying "battle reset", but as far as I remember Althior didn't raise a single party member during the entirety of the Quest. (...Yup, just double-checked, Althior got exactly one SHIELD and it only healed, it didn't revive.)

Now, in fairness, it is incredibly powerful, but "battle reset" isn't a fair argument considering a.) Druid exists and works just fine since the revival ether cost nerf, as has been proven several times with Druids running out of Ether, and b.) as just mentioned, the Ether revival nerf has already happened and still hasn't been tested in terms of practicality.

IMO, Paragon needs to be buffed before we start tinkering with Prophet again. Its "Truce" needs to be replaced with something better, and IMO letting the Paragon gain Gold equal to the enemy's level whenever they defeat an enemy (not just on a SHIELD) would go a long way towards leveling the gap between it and Prophet, giving it a bit of the tactical depth that Prophets get. IF (and I stress this as a HUGE if) afterwards Prophet still needs a nerf, I'd say make it cost 1 Ether per negative effect removed, and make the Ether restoration happen only if the Prophet was choosing to meditate (and in that case, the amount should be something like 1/2 the Prophet's Level, to make it more powerful than Meditate to Nirvana and to make up for it not happening automatically). OH! And if the "1 extra Ether per effect removed" nerf does get put into place, Druids should be exempt; they don't have the Ether pool to actually pull that off, and in that way it gives Druid a bit of an advantage over Prophet, so that Druid->Prophet needs at least a little consideration before making the switch.

I'm starting to agree about Prophet being nerfed just a tad. Recovering 25 ether is a lot. I think the SHIELD roll should be either the [Magic Burst/AoE attack + Roots of Life] OR gain 25 ether, with the former being spells->nurture in order until ether runs out.

On that note, I've been thinking for awhile that the standard Meditate roll is pretty underpowered. 1 ether doesn't do much especially at the higher levels. Especially, Paladin isn't that great because of Meditate. Sure, it has one of the best SHIELD rolls in the game, but it's gotta be frustrating having only 2 hit rolls. And Paladins don't heal very often. I dunno, I feel like Meditate should restore a little more ether. Or, Paladin should have a different roll.

Also, I don't think I brought this up after 139, but Marauder is awesome. Very powerful and good at both damage-dealing and crowd control, but also balanced due to Dual Damage/Special Damage. Definitely my favorite class I've played as so far, with Alchemist coming in second.

Thought: if the concern is that Prophets are regaining more Ether than they're burning (and reminder, Althior is a terrible example for this because he's permanently Transcended), maybe their spells need to do something interesting that justifies them costing additional Ether? Maybe Prophet spells can be cast with multiple elements at 1 Ether per element used (and the same thing would apply to SHIELD)? Yes, it makes them more powerful, but frankly if the issue is Ether restoration then you've got to give them something to spend it on; after all, even a basic Mage at Level 50 barely uses their Ether supply unless they're casting Scrolls out the wazoo with a Lens of Speed-Reading. Perhaps Prophets should be incentivized to burn Ether on Scrolls more often, either through free Scroll actions like the Lens grants or through being able to burn extra Ether to improve Scroll odds? I'm just spitballing ideas at this point, since everyone seems so convinced that Prophet needs the nerf-bat and we don't really have that much usable usage data to tell us what actually needs to be changed.

Definitely agree that Meditate needs a little extra something to give it some oomph, though, especially on Paladin in particular. Maybe restoring Ether based on WP?

[CMP]

Also, I don't think I brought this up after 139, but Marauder is awesome. Very powerful and good at both damage-dealing and crowd control, but also balanced due to Dual Damage/Special Damage. Definitely my favorite class I've played as so far, with Alchemist coming in second.

Glad to hear it.

Making classes is fun but actually having them be useful is even better.