Are LEGO Trains Classed as "Real" Model Trains?

[Sir E Fullner]

Considering the fact that LEGO trains are small and they look like real trains, they should be technically classified as true model trains.

[bricks n bolts]

You want a good argument that L gauge can be considered a model train scale. Get them to look at Carl Geartrix's work.

Totally justifiable.

Certainly have to agree with that comment Mikka! Carl is one of my favourite MOC builders.

Agree with most of what's been said, only want to add that in the UK the majority of public Lego train layouts are shown alongside other model train shows, and there aren't many specific Lego train shows.

Not being ageist, I can't help but notice that most the people who are into model trains are older gentlemen whereas Lego is mainly targeted at children. It's a pity that more children aren't involved in the shows here as that would lead to greater exposure for Lego trains.

But, moreover, I think it's just a matter of time, the average age of train AFOLs is below that of other train modellers, once the likes of us in this forum have greyed just that little bit more to reach parity of age we will have won the argument.

[WesternOutlaw]

When I see the work of masters like Sava, Teddy or other genius I can say that lego trains must be classed as real model trains!

Absolutely! These guys help make LEGO Trains "real" model trains.

if a scale modeler is biased against Lego, it is because they don't see Lego sets or accessories for sale in the hobbyist shops they use to supply their layouts.

That's a really good point. What do most people know about LEGO Trains? - not a whole lot. Many see them (a very limited supply of them) in the toy stores. The more detailed sets (targeted for AFOL), like City Modulars, are sold on-line or in a LEGO stores. Limited availability certainly impacts the perception.

This discussion goes beyond trains. I build scale models of real cars, aircraft and military vehicles. I have the impression that model builders who use kits or who build their models from scratch generally don't see LEGO as a medium for building models. They see it as a toy.

Against popular opinion, I'm afraid I agree with you (from a modeling perspective). I don't personally feel this way, but modelers may certainly view LEGO differently.

Not being ageist, I can't help but notice that most the people who are into model trains are older gentlemen whereas Lego is mainly targeted at children. It's a pity that more children aren't involved in the shows here as that would lead to greater exposure for Lego trains.

I think you're correct in regard to the age interest. I've been to a few non-LEGO hobby train shows, and with no disrespective intended, the average age seemed to be 65+. A real plus about LEGO is that it draws a younger audience to a traditionally older hobby.

This is a really good discussion with great points. I think intelligent discussions like this draw fans to EB and to Train Tech; and as mentioned above, this topic really goes beyond just trains.

[fred67]

Well, just to add my two cents; when I go to train shows that include a LEGO layout, the LEGO layout is often pretty popular. On the other hand, a lot of vendors often sell other "toy" trains (and other stuff), so a lot of the so-called train hobbyists may still consider LEGO trains just toys.

So, the way I look at it, it's very much like other LEGO themes... LEGO makes kids toys, and that's how people perceive it until they see "that LEGO robot!" Suddenly it's toys for "older" kids.. and then there's technic, power functions... when people actually see what can be done with LEGO, it starts becoming less of a toy and more of a "modelling" hobby.

Lastly, who the hell cares what everyone else thinks? I started in n-scale and sold just about all of it for LEGO and haven't regretted it... for the same reasons a lot of people here mention... my kids can play with it, we can make whatever we want, and if we don't like it, we can take it apart and make something else.

[jozero]

I can share my story. I've always wanted to get into trains and modelling, and just last year I got enough space to properly start the hobby. All my research was around 'real' model trains and buildings. I'm an urban nut, thats the setting I'm building. I searched for quite a long time on creating an urban setting through traditional modelling. I didn't want to build ye old west as I usually see in most model building magazines. I wanted it to be a crazy urban city with trains running all through it on multiple levels. I also wanted the setting to be alive, incorporate my hobby of playing with arduino boards. After humming and hawing for months, with nothing quite clicking, my brother casually mentioned Lego to me.

... LEGO ?? ...

... Yah Lego, apparently they have a train ....

So I started searching and quickly fell into the rabbit hole ...

Trains? trains that go. check

Automation? Yep, incorporate Mindstorm & technic.

Now for the buildings. Meandering around the lego.com website one day is what sealed the deal. I stumbled upon Modular Buildings and that was it. And of course its lego, I've already done slight mods on regular modulars, and made some custom buildings as well.

So then, thus far Lego has been perfect. I love the fact I can spend $300 on something grand, and the next week spend 5 bucks on something just to add something small. Its fantastic at its basic level its literally building blocks. I love that it provides just enough automation tools to make things interesting. And lastly the community has been fantastic. I'm still new to it all, but my city has taken a bit of shape after less than a year.

Edited January 20, 2012 by jozero

[WesternOutlaw]

I can share my story.

Great story!

[the enigma that is badger]

While I'm personally not a train builder, it was my pleasure over the past few years to spend a lot of time with the folks at the NILTC. From conversations with them, their experience seemed similar to what others have reported: some resistance to LEGO trains in the wider model train community but overall acceptance once other gained an appreciation of the detail, accuracy, and creativity in the MOCs . . . not to mentioned their popularity with the public at model train events!

My father has a collection of Lionel trains from his youth, and I grew up setting up small displays with him during the holidays. Every LEGO train display I see always brings back those fond memories, and hopefully as the wider model train community gains a better understanding and appreciation of LEGO trains, train builders will find a wider acceptance.

[kyphur]

Now for the buildings. Meandering around the lego.com website one day is what sealed the deal. I stumbled upon Modular Buildings and that was it. And of course its lego, I've already done slight mods on regular modulars, and made some custom buildings as well.

The City that will eventually go at one end of my lay out (covering an area of 60 x 150 inches, basically 90 32x32 stud baseplates) will probably be mostly MOCs based on LEGO's Modular Building System. I might buy a couple of the official ones (like Fire Brigade & Town Hall) but I think mostly it will be MOCs to fit the design and scale of my layout.

[JopieK]

of course we see them like real model trains. I'm also subscribed to a magazine about railroad hobby stuff (it covers interesting things about model trains and real trains).

[tbroyd]

I have exhibited at a couple of model railway exhibitions here in the UK and I'm doing another next month.

I've only ever had positive comments and there are always crowds looking on. Many of the visitors are 35 years plus and have not touched lego since they were children. They are therefore quite amazed at whats possible in Lego now, the range of parts available and the colours now produced.

[BelValcor]

Is it a toy train or a model train?

Depends who you ask and who you are talking about really.

From Wikipedia:

A toy train is a toy that represents a train. It is distinguished from a model train by an emphasis on low cost and durability, rather than scale modeling. A toy train can be as simple as a pull toy that does not even run on track, or it might be operated by clockwork or a battery. Many toy trains blur the line between the two categories, running on electric power and approaching accurate scale.

Ever price out enough elements from bricklink to ballast 5 foot of track?

This would be adding realism which would make it a model train.

The modern standards for toy trains also include S gauge, HO scale, N scale, and Z scale, in descending order of size. HO and N scale are the most popular model railway standards of today; inexpensive sets sold in toy stores and catalogs are less realistic than those sold to hobbyists. O gauge arguably remains the most popular toy train standard. Another size that is attracting interest among hobbyists is building and operating trains from Lego, or L gauge, which is roughly 1/38 scale.

Today, S gauge and O gauge railroads are still considered toy trains even by their adherents and are often accessorized with semi-scale model buildings by Plasticville or K-Line (who owns the rights to the Plasticville-like buildings produced by Marx from the 1950s to the 1970s). Ironically, however, due to their high cost, one is more likely to find an HO scale or N scale train set in a toy store than an O scale set.

The point here is the realism of the train.

I've seen fantastic O gauge layouts that looked very real and on the other end of the spectrum layouts that looked just plain cheesy to me. Ironicaly, the cheesy ones probably cost more with all the not-to-scale buildings layered everywhere (I'm remembering a layout I saw in an issue of Classic Trains magazine).

From Wikipedia:

Railway modelling (UK, Australia, Ireland and Canada) or model railroading (US and Canada) is a hobby in which rail transport systems are modelled at a reduced scale. The scale models include locomotives, rolling stock, streetcars, tracks, signalling, and roads, buildings, vehicles, model figures, lights, and features such as streams, hills and canyons.

This seems straight forward... L scale is model railroading.

Involvement ranges from possession of a train set to spending hours and large sums on a large and exacting model of a railroad and the scenery through which it passes, called a "layout". Hobbyists, called "railway modellers" or "model railroaders", may maintain models large enough to ride. Modellers may collect model trains, building a landscape for the trains to pass through, or operate their own railroad in miniature.

Layouts vary from a circle or oval of track to realistic reproductions of real places modeled to scale.

Sounds like everyone here in the train section of EB.

I think, for me, it comes down to this...

If you build your new set and play with it, never trying to mod it, then it's a toy.

If you mod it, or better yet try and make a prototype train, then it's a model.

I think we would gain more acceptance from the model train community if websites out there showed how WE view L scale and what we do with it. Not that I really care what others think...

So which do you have?

A toy train collection or a model train collection that happens to be in L scale?

[Toastie]

... in some ways "looked down upon" by people with "real" model trains? I wonder why this is the case and what if anything we can do as a hobby to change this and gain support for them?

Paul

Thank you Paul for that interesting question and thank you TB for front paging that!!! Very cool idea

... "looked down upon by people" ... Hmmm. Anyone who is giving that impression is - well - lacking imaginativeness, if you'd ask me. There are of course several ways of looking at your question. However, if that imaginativeness is not there we probably will never gain support from them. When it is there, we probably already have their support.

Personally, I'd say: We are talking about LEGO here! That's it: LEGO is inspiration, creativeness, skill, fun, fun, fun, building, imagination, endless possibilities, ...

The very moment we narrow down this wonderful world to "making models as accurate or realistic as possible", we pretty much narrow down the idea of LEGO to something (I feel) is less than LEGO really is, to something much more restricted. When you go into "serious scales", you can always get very close to the real thing - look at all these gigantic breathtaking models out there; they are indeed "realistic". But then you have simply overcome the quantum noise of the LEGO world: If the smallest brick you consider is a 1x1 plate then you can virtually model every structure with amazing details and realism once the model is 10 feet long and 5 across. It is getting much more challenging when building 7-wide trains with a minimum piece dimension of 1-wide. Here we need all the skills form the geniuses out there and all the fantastic ideas to get close to the real thing.

And there were (poor) attempts to get closer to realism: Remember that ugly white nose from the ICE train? It is good for just that: An ICE train. Nothing more, nothing less. Take any average sized LEGO train model, take it apart and you could probably do a fairly nice aircraft, at least one we all would recognize. Or a car, or a house, or a tree, ...

I like to "feel the idea", to "see functionality", playability, and have fun fun fun. I like to dream along when a LEGO train thunders through it's own world. I like to put Mr. Crabs joint next to Café Corner - just because I can. Is this a realistic model? Oh yes! In the world I have created, it is as realistic as it gets! It simply defines itself.

You know, I am very happy with the way LEGO modeling works. All models are "realistic" to me. I do enjoy very much Anthony's, Teddy's, Ben's, LT12V's, (and many other genius builders not listed) creations. I also enjoy cool ideas, alternative approaches, funny layouts, colorful solutions, ...

I believe that people giving the impression of "looking down upon" LEGO models may probably (not yet) have had the chance of feeling a universe of unlimited possibilities ...

Best regards,

Thorsten

[woolie]

Of course they are real model trains. Think about the word "model" itself. It applies as much to a functional model (a "model system") as it does to a physical representation. All the elements are there -- engines, tracks, switchgear, buildings, etc. -- to model the behavior (at some approximation) of the real life system. That satisfies me; I could care less what "real model train" enthusiasts think :) Group consensus is often a barrier to creativity; maybe more people would share their hobby if they were more inclusive.

[Hoexbroe]

I am an avid H0 scale model railroader, and I dont REALLY consider that the current line-up of Lego-trains qualifies as "real" model trains; Because of the track-system! It is currently impossible to control trafic with multiple trains on a complex layout. The old 9V system had everything needed. (Namely powering the trains through the tracks, and giving the posibillity of installing DCC control)

Saying that, I DO however think that Lego is excellent for model-railroading. As the internet is already full of excellent examples of very beautiful working models nobody should discard Lego because of looks alone.

Lego basically blew it when they abandoned the 9V track system and introduced the PF with IR, which is practically useless for most "real" MRR implementacions.

IMHO the prime objective of the Lego MRR society should be to DEMAND the re-introduction of the 9V system! The importance of this cant really be stressed enough...

Edited January 21, 2012 by Hoexbroe

[Paul B Technic]

First I just wanted to say that I never expected such an excellent level of replies when I first posted this topic, clearly it is a topic that people have a lot of passion for.

Second I would like to thank everybody for the replies, I have read all over of them and they all have some excellent points.

Paul

[mred]

I am an avid H0 scale model railroader, and I dont REALLY consider that the current line-up of Lego-trains qualifies as "real" model trains; Because of the track-system! It is currently impossible to control trafic with multiple trains on a complex layout. The old 9V system had everything needed. (Namely powering the trains through the tracks, and giving the posibillity of installing DCC control)......

..... Lego basically blew it when they abandoned the 9V track system and introduced the PF with IR, which is practically useless for most "real" MRR implementacions.

IMHO the prime objective of the Lego MRR society should be to DEMAND the re-introduction of the 9V system! The importance of this cant really be stressed enough...

I don't know if I can entirely agree with that, as the non conducting tracks make other layouts more possible, and besides that, in real life, not all tracks conduct power. What I will say is this: Yes, the current PF system could do with some work, especially when it is used in a large area such as at a LEGO expo, or a train show. But having the PF system also means a lot less wiring, and therefore the ability to pretty much set up anywhere. In my opinion, the biggest downfall of PF is that there just aren't enough channels, and there isn't an easy way to make them only listen to your transmitter, rather than all that are on the same channel. If that could be fixed, I'm sure IR repeaters could be installed throughout a layout, and that would completely solve the transmission problems of PF.

So I for one am not about to demand that the 9v system gets re-introduced, particularly as I don't own any anyway. Having two systems running is just asking for trouble, particularly if people are not aware of the differences, so I think LEGO should stick with PF track only. While that may sound selfish, I don't believe it is, because not relying on conductive rails has given us those <some would say useless> flex tracks, which greatly enhances the possibilities of previously unbuildable curves and layouts. In my opinion, these have actually increased the practicle apllications as a working model railroad system.

I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way either.....

[Hoexbroe]

I don't know if I can entirely agree with that, as the non conducting tracks make other layouts more possible, and besides that, in real life, not all tracks conduct power.

I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way either.....

Well, in that case I´ll briefly expand a little on two major issues; track conducting power and problem with wiring;

I find it troublesome to construct models around the IR receiver and the AAA battery pack; With power from the rails (like all other decent model railroad systems) you won´t have to change batteries.

As of wiring; basically you just need two wires; I hope most people wont see that as a problem. -Actually the wires needed between battery-pack, IR-receiver and motor in each motorized unit bothers me more! (-and I dont mind if I am the only one feeling so! hehe)

Edited January 21, 2012 by Hoexbroe

[WesternOutlaw]

Let's make sure we keep this topic on the question rather than what is better, 9V or PF.

[dr_spock]

I would consider Lego as model trains if the train is modeled after a real train. Isn't that what models are? Back in my HO days, there were a lot of discussion/arguments about prototype vs freelance. Scratchbuilding vs "ready to run". Brass vs plastic. Don't think much has changed. True scale vs Lego...

At end of the day, I think the important thing is are you having fun?

Also I think the NMRA needs fresh blood in the hobby. Gotta attract the kids somehow.

[Dfenz]

As Duq mentioned in a previous post the brick.ie team had layouts at two Irish model railway shows in 2011. On the first occasion they were completely unprepared for the level of detail, not only in the custom -built trains in Irish liveries but also the station, viaduct and other detailed buildings that formed part of the overall layout. There was some fantastic comments. Postings on the model railway websites afterwards confirmed that we'd taken the serious model railway enthusiasts by surprise. At the second exhibition another bunch of model railway enthusiasts were won over. Indeed the second invite was received because of the reaction of the public at the first layout where not only did it attract a much younger audience, they tended to hang around the layout much longer.

Model railway exhibitions are not targeted at children. One of the manufacturers of the train kits in Ireland has made comments to the model railway community that they seriously need to look at running junior sections to ensure the hobby doesn't die out. As others have mentioned the age profile of the model railway hobby is skewed towards the over-50s. This isn't surprising given the investment in time and especially money required to build their fantastic and incredibly detailed layouts. Some of the models are off-the-shelf but the layouts themselves are not. There is an incredible amount of work going in to producing the buildings, backdrops and electrics for model railways and many are expert electricians, mini-painters/printers and carpenters. Unfortunately I'd expect that the necessry 'do not touch' signs and typical height of the layout tables don't exactly sell the hobby at exhibitions to those small children attending. Instead the children and their parents gravitate towards those trains that are accessible to them. If they could have bought the MOCs many would have. They loved the interaction and the ability to request that this train or that train be next to leave the station.

The model railway guys were definitely surprised at the 9v system (which from a practical perspective we found to be streets ahead of PF from an ease of operation perspective - try pressing stop as a train approaches the end of the line and see how often those buffers get tested!) and asked lots of questions. PF switching of points also went down very well but overall there was an appreciation of the work done in creating models out of the limited parts and colours available from a LEGO system. LEGO layouts tend to be relatively large given the size of the track and in some exhibitions I suspect space might be an issue. While model railways are incredibly detailed they are often much smaller than their LEGO counterparts as they typically have a front 'public' section and a hidden section behind the scenery where the operators control the tracks, points etc. and fix/ park trains.

From the perspective of anyone running a model railway exhibition, having a LEGO section is a 'no-brainer' as it widens the demographics and increases publicity for the event. LEGO is far more media friendly and some of our LUG were able to plug the event on national radio during an interview on AFOLs in Ireland. We had people travelling to the exhibits from far many parts of the country just to see the LEGO models. We had a teacher from a Cork school at the exhibition report back to a colleague in Cork that she'd seen fantastic LEGO display while visiting Dublin, not realising that she was speaking to the sister-in-law of the builder ... its a small world.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Dfenz

[spzero]

Most of what I could add to this topic has being said. It's a great topic, by the way. My oppinion for what it's worth is this: Lego sell lego model's, yes its a model of a train, the train guys will laugh at us, (Trust me my step dad featured on the front cover of HORNBY magazine with a 10 page spread of his layout, here in the uk and has won a few national competions) but they should include us in shows whenever possible.

Maybe we should be helping ourselves, yes its great to see some of the massive layouts that large groups can create at events but could we maybe on our own or with just a small number do some local shows maybe just model a small yard with a few trains shunting freight? or a small scenic layout with a tunnel at each end that loops around the back where we dont have to model scenery with a few facade buildings it woudlnt use up too man bricks or too much time ????

[domboy]

Is it a toy train or a model train?

Depends who you ask and who you are talking about really.

.

.

.

I think, for me, it comes down to this...

If you build your new set and play with it, never trying to mod it, then it's a toy.

If you mod it, or better yet try and make a prototype train, then it's a model.

.

.

.

Not to nit-pick, and no offense, but by your definition one could argue that traditional model trains are toys. How many train hobbyists mod their model trains I wonder? It is probably taken out of the box and "played with" or put on display without moding it or trying to build it from scratch...

I know I "played" with my "model trains" when I was a kid. I would have loved to have Lego trains, but they were cost prohibitive in my family...

Which gets me to my point, they could all be considered toys! Why is that a problem? What is a toy anyway?

Edited January 23, 2012 by domboy

[owl]

Of course they are real model trains. at least we get to build ours unlike the hornby sets i see in toyshops.

Each to their own.

[craigstrains]

Hello there,

After reading many interesting posts my Father(old!) and myself(23) have taken the plunge and registered. We have quite a few 9 volt Lego trains and have at least one example of most Lego trains since the days of 12 volt.

Our main interest is using custom built trains to record the many liveries carried in the UK since the days of BR blue and white inter city, and earlier. We will never achieve the standards of some builders, but are always happy when someone can recognise the loco type, or which livery is represented.

For a couple of years we have had a layout at the Model Railway exhibition held by the Normanton and Pontefract Model Railway Society. Its nothing fancy, mainly 2 large loops of 9v track with sidings and loops laid loose on tables. We used to take modular buildings and items like the working 12v level crossing, but as we let the kids do all the driving we find it better to have less items for them to mess with! The only scenery we always take is a nice custom made station.

Over 2 days its amazing how many times you surprise mums and dads with the fact that its all Lego, and a lot of adult modellers are interested when you start explaining the technical side of things. Loads of parents tell you they wish they knew about Lego trains before they bought "proper" models for their kids. TLG marketing again!

Now for the nitty gritty!

This year's show is next weekend! (28th 29th January 2012), near Pontefract Racecourse, Yorkshire, follow the signs to the show from junction 32 of the M62.

If you can make it, we will be there, and you are invited to have a chat (and we are usually located near the tea bar!)

Edited January 23, 2012 by craigstrains

[Yacapo]

Wow, this is quite a debate, to me it dosen't matter mutch but in my opinion I thik they should be considered modle trains.