An internet tale Winchester/Shaun of the Dead project on CUUSOO

[Ash]

@jonwil: Yeah, that's more like the reason. I find it disrespectful of Lego to use fake arguments to back up its decision. It's not like their core audience can watch PG-13 movies in cinemas either, or can they?

Yes they can.

I think it's going out on a limb to accuse The Lego Group of being disrespectful based on nothing but speculation on your part. Even if you think that it's a "fake" reason (which is kind of odd in itself because what would they gain from intentionally misleading people?) it might simply be a case that you're wrong rather than any malfeasance on their part.

Its clear from what LEGO have said that the Western set (if it reaches 10k) would only be made as a single building.

Awesome. I hadn't heard that.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ash

[Nagyzee]

Its clear from what LEGO have said that the Western set (if it reaches 10k) would only be made as a single building.

With which it would lose much of its charm and usefulness to be honest. Western Town really only makes sense as a theme or a giant set depicting a bigger part of a street.

[Algernon]

You know, the purpose of LEGO Cuusoo is more than just turning your ideas into real sets. LEGO learns a lot from what people ask for on Cuusoo. The Winchester was rejected, but LEGO's coming out with the Monster Fighters theme which conveniently involves a set called "The Zombies". Even if the Western Town isn't well realized, LEGO might very well come out with a brand-new Western theme to capitalize on the interest.

Remember that LEGO is a business, and I don't know of many businesses that listen to their diehard fanbase as closely as LEGO does. Lets show some gratitude.

[Nagyzee]

Yes they can.

I think it's going out on a limb to accuse The Lego Group of being disrespectful based on nothing but speculation on your part. Even if you think that it's a "fake" reason (which is kind of odd in itself because what would they gain from intentionally misleading people?) it might simply be a case that you're wrong rather than any malfeasance on their part.

Of course I could be wrong and maybe I was too harsh. But still several of the films they have turned into themes have content not really suitable for 6-11 years olds. And they still made sets out of them.

And on the other hand the proposed product itself is absolutely content appropriate for their core audience, too. Or if it's not then the Monster Fighters theme and the S1 Zombie aren't either. I see their reasoning as somewhat incoherent. They claim the product must be content appropriate then in the next sentence they say the project was rejected because the base material wasn't content appropriate (and not the product itself). This isn't the same thing.

[Ash]

And on the other hand the proposed product itself is absolutely content appropriate for their core audience, too. Or if it's not then the Monster Fighters theme and the S1 Zombie aren't either. I see their reasoning as somewhat incoherent. They claim the product must be content appropriate then in the next sentence they say the project was rejected because the base material wasn't content appropriate (and not the product itself). This isn't the same thing.

From a branding (ie Lego's) point of view it is the same thing though. The content of the set is tied to the source material even if the set itself isn't R rated. I mean they can choose to ignore this fact if they want, and the blog post suggests they did give it some thought rather than dismiss it out of hand. This is a marketing/business rather than a creative decision and it is a shame, but they come across as being pretty open about it. Which, as other's have mentioned, is one of the good things about Lego as a company in general.

[BrickBucket]

sad news, and especially odd considering

- the zombies monster hunter coming soon.

- the modulars are surely aimed at older than 6-11 year olds

- many other sets are 14+ or 16+

- Cuusoo is a 'niche' and must be at least partly aimed at AFOLs or collectors. Is the Hayabusa aimed at 6 year olds?

Yup, I'm convinced the age thing was just an excuse because Lego didn't want to invest in making such a big (2000+ parts) and expensive set with a license required for it. Not to mention custom minifigs for Shaun and the Zombies. It probably was not a practical choice for them. I hope the western town fairs better.

[Scubacarrot]

In my opinion, this is a giant failed chance for LEGO. In my opinion, this would have been the real 'trial by fire' of Cuuso. With the website only being fully available to adults, and obviously targeted at the AFOL community, it boggles my mind that they deny the project on bases of not suitable for the core audience. One would expect that this project, LIKE the previous ones, would be sold through specific channels, so it would not be a case of violent products in the toyshop. And I even feel that the whole "Not suitable for the core audience" is a strawman's argument: Pirates of the Carribean has drinking, and almost (not Cars, Spongebob and Toy Story etc.) all other licensed sets were based on "violent" movies.

I start to fail seeing the point of Cuuso, when well thought out ideas like this one by Yatkuu get denied, and nothing but an idea for a theme get made into a (pointless/lacking/overexpensive) set. Obviously it has to do with audience, as the second case I mentioned has a huge fanbase, but I wonder how many of those buyers of a 15 dollar game, actually bought the 40 euro set... I think the cult-film Shaun of the Dead could sell more copies actually, as I think both AFOLS and people that are fans of the film would buy it.

Maybe there is an underlaying reason the set did not get through, perhaps negotiations with the holders of the rights of the film bounced. I think this is a better reason than what LEGO has stated...

On the subject of the EVE online ship: I am almost certain it will fail. since (I assume) the set that could come out of it would only really be interesting to players of EVE, you have a very limited market. It was the same with Minecraft, but I googled that EVE online has around 30.000 players, while Minecraft has millions (Over 5.5 million copies sold).

[tedbeard]

- Cuusoo is a 'niche' and must be at least partly aimed at AFOLs or collectors. Is the Hayabusa aimed at 6 year olds?

Exactly! This is where I call megablocks on the whole project. These sets are never going to be more than niche products and there are more than sufficient numbers of fans to warrant a small run set.

This rejection makes the whole project suspect and indeed is a slap in the face to every single person who signed up and supported this idea and more generally a repudiation of the crowd-sourcing model.

This set, in an of itself was not any more violent than LoTR or Batman. Further the source material may have been "R-rated" but why do people forget that "R" means a kid can see a movie with a parent? Who is going to buy these sets? Parents. It was not NC-17 or "X" or whatever the equivalent is in other jurisdictions.

Add this rejection to their total unwillingness to fix the major flaw in their activity feeds preventing smooth member-to-member communication on projects and this whole thing is turning into a farce.

[Ash]

Yup, I'm convinced the age thing was just an excuse because Lego didn't want to invest in making such a big (2000+ parts) and expensive set with a license required for it.

Why wouldn't they just have said that instead?

I feel like I'm missing something here! What do they have to gain by lying about stuff like this? They've been upfront since the beginning that the age thing was an issue, so it's not like it's totally out of left field or anything. And they're not saying that there wouldn't have been other issues if they had decided that a set based on an R rated movie was OK. I understand that people disagree with their reasoning, I just don't get why this means Lego must be lying about it.

[Scubacarrot]

Why wouldn't they just have said that instead?

I feel like I'm missing something here! What do they have to gain by lying about stuff like this? They've been upfront since the beginning that the age thing was an issue, so it's not like it's totally out of left field or anything. And they're not saying that there wouldn't have been other issues if they had decided that a set based on an R rated movie was OK. I understand that people disagree with their reasoning, I just don't get why this means Lego must be lying about it.

Ok, I here is what I think: Negotiations with the holders of the License bounced. Now, LEGO obviously wants to make money, but so do the holders of the license. If say LEGO demanded a share that was seen as unreasonable by the license holders, that info could potentially damage LEGO's image.

[Fugazi]

I don't see what's so difficult to understand about Lego not wanting to associate themselves with a marginal license with violent content. SW and POTC may contain various degrees of violence or behaviour inappropriate to some, but frankly by most criteria and most people both franchises are considered pretty 'mild'. Can the same be said about SotD?

And while I don't play Eve Online and never will, I find the ship design attractive and will consider buying one if it makes it. Good-looking Lego sci-fi ships are few and far between. The same cannot be said of the Minecraft set which holds little interest for the average AFOL who doesn't play Minecraft.

[Ash]

Maybe there is an underlaying reason the set did not get through, perhaps negotiations with the holders of the rights of the film bounced. I think this is a better reason than what LEGO has stated...

That would probably have come later in the process as it has an inherent expense (LAWYERS!) that they'd probably want to avoid unless they were fairly certain it was going ahead.

Ok, I here is what I think: Negotiations with the holders of the License bounced. Now, LEGO obviously wants to make money, but so do the holders of the license. If say LEGO demanded a share that was seen as unreasonable by the license holders, that info could potentially damage LEGO's image.

They'd just say the couldn't secure the license. That doesn't damage anyone. Isn't the far simpler explanation that the reason Lego rejected the set is actually the reason they said that they rejected it? You're free to disagree with that reason, many obviously do, but doing so doesn't require a completely unescessary subtefuge on Lego's part. Disagreeing with it doesn't mean there has to be a "real" secret reason that they're not telling us.

On the subject of the EVE online ship: I am almost certain it will fail. since (I assume) the set that could come out of it would only really be interesting to players of EVE, you have a very limited market. It was the same with Minecraft, but I googled that EVE online has around 30.000 players, while Minecraft has millions (Over 5.5 million copies sold).

Don't forget they can reject sets for this reason. From what I've read so far the whole process seems very rigorous and proposals are treated as products not competition winners. I think that might be part of what I'm missing in my previous post. People seem to have an expectation that if a set gets the votes it should be made and anything else is a hyperbolic "slap in the face". If they think it will be a failure they're not going to make it. Businesses don't work that way. EVE might surprise you though. While it has a small player base they are crazy fanatical about it.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ash

[Scubacarrot]

Don't forget they can reject sets for this reason. From what I've read so far the whole process seems very rigorous and proposals are treated as products not competition winners. I think that might be part of what I'm missing in my previous post. People seem to have an expectation that if a set gets the votes it should be made and anything else is a hyperbolic "slap in the face". If they think it will be a failure they're not going to make it. Businesses don't work that way. EVE might surprise you though. While it has a small player base they are crazy fanatical about it.

I actually meant that I think TLG is going to reject it for this reason.

[Ash]

I actually meant that I think TLG is going to reject it for this reason.

But will you believe them when they say that's the reason

I joke. I think some people are annoyed because they really wanted the set to be made. I think there were a lot of factors that probably stood in it's way and it unfortunately fell at the first hurdle because of a judgement call that a lot of people don't agree with. But at the end of the day it's going to be down to TLG's judgement not anyone elses. I just don't see any reason to believe there's more to it than what they told us.

[Clone OPatra]

Seriously, the thought that LEGO 'didn't want to invest in such a big project' is ridiculous. They don't just take the Cuusoo model and make it as is; they could've made a facade-type playset out of the Winchester and sold it for 60 or 70 bucks. They're not going to lie. Like Shadows said in his very well-put post, though nothing about the set would inherently not be for children, it would bring the baggage of the R-rated, violent source material, and that's a fact.

Shaun of the Dead, though not just a gory exploitation film by any means, is still an adult film. It makes absolute sense that LEGO cannot be associated with that, even if they were going to market the set to adults. Just because LEGO makes sets for adults does not mean that they forget their overall brand image when they do so.

The argument that LEGO makes sets based on movies not for children is bullocks. PotC, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Prince of Persia - though they might have some (tame) gore now and again, these are kids' films. Sure, some carry PG-13 ratings (in the US), but there's no doubt in my mind that 8 year olds still enjoy them. Lord of the Rings is the darkest LEGO theme out there, but it's still a franchise full of extravagant set pieces, epic heroes, spooky villains, bravery, battles - all things that kids can enjoy, even if they have to hide their eyes at some of the scariest parts. Shaun of the Dead is a film made for adults, plain and simple. It is a thoughtful film, and a fun film, but for adults. It's not suited to LEGO's image at all.

[tafkatb]

I don't see how this is supposed to harm CUUSOO's credibility. LEGO never made any promises beyond the explicitly stated rules of the program - 10,000 votes gets you to the review stage. It didn't pass review, and its reasons for not passing review are perfectly legitimate. The reasoning isn't hypocritical - yes, other licensed themes/sets have been based on violent films, but the context of the violence is important. Shaun of the Dead's violence may be "fantasy," but the film is set in the present-day real world, while the other films are a few more degrees removed from reality. That has always seemed to be the deciding factor for how TLG treats violent themes.

[BrickBucket]

Eve has 300,000 active players from what I've read (you missed one zero Scubacarrot). I'm sure it will pass in the same way minecraft did.

Of the current cuusoo lineup only my little pony glaringly looks like a project Lego will pass up. Hasbro owns the license and also has a competing Lego product in Kreo, and my little pony cuusoo project is not a Lego set it's a request for Lego to produce a new mold for a cartoon horse compatible with Lego. That's so not happening!

With the exception of the Western town a lot of the popluar cuusoo projects are based on licenses, wish there would be more classic Lego style ideas.

Currently I'm only supporting the western town and lunar landing. I did support the winchester, sorry to see it being passed up.

[Scubacarrot]

As always when I venture out of the games forum, I seem to step on a dozen toes, here is what I think about all this:

From a business point of view, I think making this decision was not the smartest thing, as if marketed in similair fashion as minecraft, I think it would have sold quite well, AND would not have hurt Lego's image. One could argue that it would hurt Lego's image if they were to license Shaun of the dead, as the film has violence, and it would undoubtedly do that, if sold in toystores, but it would never be. As for personal opinion, I would have loved this set as a set aimed at AFOL's as the modulars are.

I really don't think the whole violence thing holds up, as having seen the movie, it's quite tame, and I will go as far as saying it's less "violent and offensive" than certain others Lego HAS ventured into. And I think we can have a long debate about this, but there is no point in doing that, I feel.

Not making it is of course a very safe thing to do for Lego, and perhaps I am wrong with what I think.

I don't think Cuusoo's credibility is at stake per se, as Lego has said at every point of the way that they decide what and how things are going to actually happen, but rather it's usefulness. I think there are many like me that are kind of disappointed that a project solely backed by 12 year olds (No offense to anyone, but that is the primary demographic of Minecraft) gets made into a set, and this is not.

Eve has 300,000 active players from what I've read (you missed one zero Scubacarrot). I'm sure it will pass in the same way minecraft did.

Ah, you are right, I only found average player log ins per day

Of the current cuusoo lineup only my little pony glaringly looks like a project Lego will pass up. Hasbro owns the license and also has a competing Lego product in Kreo, and my little pony cuusoo project is not a Lego set it's a request for Lego to produce a new mold for a cartoon horse compatible with Lego. That's so not happening!

Lego Zelda will also (probably?) never happen, Nintendo is not very generous with licenses, and while it could happen (there is Mario Knex) I reckon there would be months of negotiations preceding it.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Scubacarrot

[Ash]

I really don't think the whole violence thing holds up, as having seen the movie, it's quite tame, and I will go as far as saying it's less "violent and offensive" than certain others Lego HAS ventured into.

You've lost me there. SotD has a scene where a man is ripped apart, his stomach is torn open and his entrails pulled out while he's still alive. "Quite tame" is relative, but it's far far more graphic then any other license. I don't even see how that can possibly be up for debate.

I had no idea Minecraft's demographic was that young though. Is that something they've actually released or are you just plucking it out of thin air? I know loads of adults who love it. Never played it myself though.

[sharky]

Don't forget they can reject sets for this reason. From what I've read so far the whole process seems very rigorous and proposals are treated as products not competition winners. I think that might be part of what I'm missing in my previous post. People seem to have an expectation that if a set gets the votes it should be made and anything else is a hyperbolic "slap in the face". If they think it will be a failure they're not going to make it. Businesses don't work that way. EVE might surprise you though. While it has a small player base they are crazy fanatical about it.

One thing people should also keep in mind is that it's easy to join Cuusoo and vote for anything one simply thinks is a cool idea. The votes simply mean people like the idea, nothing more. It is not really in indication that all 10,000 people who voted would actually buy the set. It's an entirely different matter for Lego to invest in developing and producing a set that needs to sell in order to be a profitable project.

Shaun of the Dead, though not just a gory exploitation film by any means, is still an adult film. It makes absolute sense that LEGO cannot be associated with that, even if they were going to market the set to adults. Just because LEGO makes sets for adults does not mean that they forget their overall brand image when they do so.

The argument that LEGO makes sets based on movies not for children is bullocks. PotC, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Prince of Persia - though they might have some (tame) gore now and again, these are kids' films. Sure, some carry PG-13 ratings (in the US), but there's no doubt in my mind that 8 year olds still enjoy them. Lord of the Rings is the darkest LEGO theme out there, but it's still a franchise full of extravagant set pieces, epic heroes, spooky villains, bravery, battles - all things that kids can enjoy, even if they have to hide their eyes at some of the scariest parts. Shaun of the Dead is a film made for adults, plain and simple. It is a thoughtful film, and a fun film, but for adults. It's not suited to LEGO's image at all.

There is a lot of foul language in the movie. That alone would be grounds for Lego not to do it IMO.

[Remus_Lupin]

I certainly wasn't opposed to the Winchester, but I don't buy into the ire from some towards the decision. The company stated from the outset that it was on the boundaries of what they deemed to be appropriate source material. I also disagree with the comparisons between SoTD and the likes of Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and PoTC. Those films may not have been directed at 6-11 year olds, but they are distinctly more family-oriented than SoTD. Honestly, I think they are planets apart.

The other argument that the decision was unfair given the upcoming Monster Fighters theme doesn't hold water either IMO. Take a look at the Monster Fighters micrositethat launched in the last day or two. Watch the video that explains the story behind the theme - how someone can't appreciate the difference in tone between that and SoTD is beyond me.

[Scubacarrot]

You've lost me there. SotD has a scene where a man is ripped apart, his stomach is torn open and his entrails pulled out while he's still alive. "Quite tame" is relative, but it's far far more graphic then any other license. I don't even see how that can possibly be up for debate.

I did say I did not wanted to debate this but... This is the scene you are referring to?

Come on, they don't even try to make it look realistic (and it is obviously an homage.).

[Jedi master Brick]

I am disappointed Lego are not making the Winchester but in no way I am surprised, some people just got a little bit to optimistic

[CMP]

That really sucks. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised, I can't see any 6-11 purchasing any of the CUUSOO sets so far, the Minecraft mini-world maybe, but from I've seen so far CUUSOO is into releasing odd collector's models that an AFOL is more likely to respect than a younger audience. A combined modular/zombie set would've been cool. It is understandable, though, how they don't want to get involved in it too much. Even if it's marketed for adults, a few parents might get the wrong idea seeing LEGO sell this sort of thing. It was an awesome idea, though, and still a great MOC. I don't know what I expected given how it's come so far, but what I didn't expect was them claiming it wasn't for their target audience. TLG has good reason not to release the set, but I wouldn't think that's one of them.

Edited April 26, 2012 by CallMePieOrDie

[Clone OPatra]

Come on, they don't even try to make it look realistic (and it is obviously an homage.).

You must be joking. Seriously. You're an adult (or if not, you're a younger person who realizes movie gore isn't realistic). Fine, by the time I was 13 or 14 that type of violence wouldn't have phased me, but as a younger kid I was plenty creeped out just at the Nazis disintegrating at the end of Raiders. Shaun of the Dead is chock full of violence way above and beyond anything LEGO has ever licensed, not to mention the swearing. It's entirely geared towards adults; satire is lost on kids most of the time. You might not want to have 'started a debate,' but you're just digging yourself into the ground if you actually try to argue that the violence in SotD is 'tame' for children.