LEGO® CUUSOO 空想 - Turn your model wishes into reality

[Another Brick In The Wall]

The Macross project is dead on arrival because it is a horribly contested license that is so embroiled in international litigation, and has been for the past 20 years, that TLG would have no clear or clean way to get it and distribute a set worldwide. Macross is not the same license as Robotech. Macross currently can't license into North America (which is why you need to buy all the good Valkyrie kits from Hobby Link Japan or specialty import shops). Harmony Gold and Robotech aren't giving up this fight either. They just released a new "Robotech" sequel on DVD this week. Unless Lego could come to separate licences with Big West in Japan and Asia and Harmony Gold in North and South America (and possibly Europe, I am not sure where HG's merchandising rights extend) they would be stepping into a legal catfight.

It breaks my heart to say this. I so want one of those Valkyries.

Yeah me too. The license conflict is discussed on the CuuSoo page. I was more interested from TLG/CuuSoo's perspective. I think the question is whether it is viable for a Japan only distribution. Was Hayabusa sold outside Japan?

[Blondie-Wan]

Yeah me too. The license conflict is discussed on the CuuSoo page. I was more interested from TLG/CuuSoo's perspective. I think the question is whether it is viable for a Japan only distribution. Was Hayabusa sold outside Japan?

Hayabusa certainly was - and still is - sold outside Japan; I'm happy to say I just got a copy myself earlier this month at the LEGO Store at Downtown Disney in Orlando. You can still order it, too (I don't know which country you're in, but that's the page for the set in the US version of Shop at Home). In fact, the only CUUSOO set that was actually released only in Japan was the very first, the Shinkai 6500. All the CUUSOO sets released since then have been available internationally.

Would they go back to a Japan-only distribution for a set like this? I don't know. I think they'd certainly prefer to make sets that they can sell everywhere they do business, but the Shinkai 6500 and various other, non-CUUSOO sets over the years do show they're certainly willing and able to make sets solely for specific countries / regions. However, if they were to think of doing another CUUSOO set specifically for Japan, I think they'd want some assurance first that it got enough votes specifically from Japan to ensure it'd be worthwhile.

[Another Brick In The Wall]

Well, Macross probably has the biggest following in Japan. I'm sure many sets will wind-up on eBay/Bricklink so Japan only is better than nothing. But this is just speculation...and wishful thinking, like Faefrost I'd donate non-essential body parts for that set.

[Faefrost]

Well, Macross probably has the biggest following in Japan. I'm sure many sets will wind-up on eBay/Bricklink so Japan only is better than nothing. But this is just speculation...and wishful thinking, like Faefrost I'd donate non-essential body parts for that set.

The mech also has a huge North American following. Robotech was one of the breakout anime shows that got actual major airtime in North America, and in many ways started the modern interest in anime. Plus the mech has its own fan base from when FASA pirated its design and used it in the original Battletech / Mechwarrior tabletop games. Not to mention it's appearance in several BT and MW video games. It was the extremely popular "Pheonix Hawk" mech, before Harmony Gold finally stepped on FASA (and deservedly so in this case. FASA blatantly stole art and designs from Macross/Robotech, Crusher Joe, and Dougram). Heck When Netflix added the Robotech series in the US not to long ago it rapidly rose to the top in popularity and has never really come down.

All of which makes the simple fact that any North American merchandise license for this property is such a nightmare completely and utterly heartbreaking to the fans.

[Faefrost]

While we are talking about some of the pitfalls and benefits of CuuSoo projects that involve ongoing Lego Licenses or propose new ones, I noticed something on the CuuSoo blog that I had overlooked in the past.

"Suggesting a new license introduces factors outside of our control.Understand if your idea is for us to produce a new licensed item, you’re introducing factors into the review process that can diminish your chances. Most licenses are owned by large corporations, so striking an agreement requires many stakeholders and legal complexity. Also, some licenses can be exclusive or can forbid us from working with competing brands. Note that if a license doesn’t work out, we will not produce a project as an unlicensed version, since the supporters would have been gained because of the license. While your chances are slim, if your licensed project succeeds you’ll be a hero to fans of your favorite brand!"

Note the bolded and underlined section. Also, some licenses can be exclusive or can forbid us from working with competing brands. In other words some licenses, particularly some existing ones, may block a new separate license. This is the first real confirmation I have ever seen of some things that have long been rumored. As an example it has long been rumored that many Lucasfilms Star Wars licenses specifically blocked the license holder from also or simultaneously licensing certain competing SciFi properties. With Paramount's Star Trek being the big one. From this statement we can pretty safely surmise that those rumors are most likely true, or at least have been true in the past. (Who knows what Disney's views on the subject might now be?). And really think about it? What else could this statement really mean? Of Lego's existing licenses, how many have what would be considered "directly competing properties"? Harry Potter might block Percy Jackson sets? LotR might block Game of Thrones? I think Occam's Razor kind of leads us to more than suspect that yes the big elephant in the room is Star Wars, and yes they are really talking about Star Trek.

But it also raises some interesting issues when trying to figure out what might pose an issue for a licensed CuuSoo project. It might conflict or be excluded in a way that is not readily apparent at a first second or even third glance. (and I'm sorry if I bore everyone to tears with this stuff. I just always find the business side of these sorts of things fascinating.)

[Aanchir]

While we are talking about some of the pitfalls and benefits of CuuSoo projects that involve ongoing Lego Licenses or propose new ones, I noticed something on the CuuSoo blog that I had overlooked in the past.

"Suggesting a new license introduces factors outside of our control.Understand if your idea is for us to produce a new licensed item, you’re introducing factors into the review process that can diminish your chances. Most licenses are owned by large corporations, so striking an agreement requires many stakeholders and legal complexity. Also, some licenses can be exclusive or can forbid us from working with competing brands. Note that if a license doesn’t work out, we will not produce a project as an unlicensed version, since the supporters would have been gained because of the license. While your chances are slim, if your licensed project succeeds you’ll be a hero to fans of your favorite brand!"

Note the bolded and underlined section. Also, some licenses can be exclusive or can forbid us from working with competing brands. In other words some licenses, particularly some existing ones, may block a new separate license. This is the first real confirmation I have ever seen of some things that have long been rumored. As an example it has long been rumored that many Lucasfilms Star Wars licenses specifically blocked the license holder from also or simultaneously licensing certain competing SciFi properties. With Paramount's Star Trek being the big one. From this statement we can pretty safely surmise that those rumors are most likely true, or at least have been true in the past. (Who knows what Disney's views on the subject might now be?). And really think about it? What else could this statement really mean? Of Lego's existing licenses, how many have what would be considered "directly competing properties"? Harry Potter might block Percy Jackson sets? LotR might block Game of Thrones? I think Occam's Razor kind of leads us to more than suspect that yes the big elephant in the room is Star Wars, and yes they are really talking about Star Trek.

But it also raises some interesting issues when trying to figure out what might pose an issue for a licensed CuuSoo project. It might conflict or be excluded in a way that is not readily apparent at a first second or even third glance. (and I'm sorry if I bore everyone to tears with this stuff. I just always find the business side of these sorts of things fascinating.)

Yeah, there are a lot of factors in whether a set can be made that we fans really have no way of predicting. That's why I think a good policy is "when in doubt, support the projects you like and let TLG take care of the rest". It does nobody any good to give armchair assessments of what can or can't work as a set. It just discourages Cuusoo activity in my opinion, and that can make the platform as a whole less efficient. Better to just support the projects you would legitimately pay money for, regardless of whether there are potential complications, and then wait for the LEGO Cuusoo staff to speak up if there is some particular complication they alert project creators to.

[Faefrost]

Yeah, there are a lot of factors in whether a set can be made that we fans really have no way of predicting. That's why I think a good policy is "when in doubt, support the projects you like and let TLG take care of the rest". It does nobody any good to give armchair assessments of what can or can't work as a set. It just discourages Cuusoo activity in my opinion, and that can make the platform as a whole less efficient. Better to just support the projects you would legitimately pay money for, regardless of whether there are potential complications, and then wait for the LEGO Cuusoo staff to speak up if there is some particular complication they alert project creators to.

The counter point to that is "vote for and support the projects you like and would pay for, but also except when a project fails review for reasons that are not completely apparent." No nerdraging. Lego is not evil because their license doesn't allow them to make the most awesomest set ever. They are simply limited by business case.

[LiamM32]

I'm not saying that TLG shouldn't be cautious. Obviously bigger fandoms have more members in general, and TLG should hold EVERY business case to a high standard rather than arbitrarily lowering their standards for niche projects. I wasn't arguing against that at all.

I'm just saying that I think it's awfully pretentious of AFOLs to assume that just because a project is based on some niche fandom, the people supporting it are just giving a meaningless show of approval and aren't legitimately interested in buying such a product. What ground do we have to assume that "mainstream" projects' supporters are sincere about their willingness to buy the set and "niche" products' supporters are not? Sure, there are some Cuusoo "supporters" who probably aren't committed to buying the sets they support, but that applies for any project based on any fandom, including the LEGO fandom.

I can mostly agree to that statement that I underlined. There is likely to be a large portion of supporters for (at least) most projects. Yes, even the Lego fans probably support a fair amount of projects that they wouldn't end-up buying. But this has to be much more common for people of other fanbases who generally don't buy Lego.

I don't understand the reason for your message of niche fans not being less interested (per-individual) than members of larger fanbases. From what I have seen, niches appear to have more dedication from each individual fan. You appear to be responding to something that someone said, but I don't see any opposing view on that particular topic in the quote that you inserted.

Update: I thought about it, and I think I understand your point now. Because every project requires 10 000 supporters to pass, so the success is just a reflection of the fanbase. It may still be assumed by some fans and TLegoG that the fan base is niche.

I am supporting over 160 projects and I can honestly say that I more than likely would not buy 90% of them.. I offered my support for certain projects because I felt that they were a really good idea for the people out there who are into that particular theme and may never get to visit(or know about) Cuusoo, and I just really hate to see good ideas get lost in the shuffle... There are some amazing designs and ideas on Cuusoo that will probably never get to 1,000 supports due to lack of fan-base...

I can also guarantee that the majority of people that supported that Purdue Pete project would never even buy it.. People voted for that one just because it seemed like the right thing to do...

The Minecraft project came along at just the right time as the game was gaining amazing momentum in sales and cult fans... And that game also fits perfectly with LEGO's structure as it is based on actually building, so Minecraft is really a tough IP to base the future of game related Cuusoo projects on... That one was just too perfect.... I remember seeing it on Cuusoo and thinking "Isn't that what LEGO basically already is?"

I admit I might not end-up buying some of the products that I supported on Cuusoo, if they end-up getting made. This is more because of my limited budget though. I also supported a few that I really thought would benefit the Lego fanbase, but I am often more confident about the ones that suit my own interests. There were 2 particular projects that I got especially attached to, posting a fair number of comments after supporting. I would try to save-up for those 2 expensive single-set projects if they were made, as I wouldn't want to bail out of the ones that I was more dedicated 2 (even though on Cuusoo, all supports are supposed to be equal). The two of them were the Corner Candy modular building, and your Vampire GT (remember "GeekTeen2", with the Tesla Roadster avatar?).

And by the way; you often seem to be out of hope for the most part of you Vampire GT succeeding to production. Yes, it is certainly difficult for non-licensed projects to achieve as previous results have shown, as they must start their own fanbase instead of calling a developed one. But on the top-left corner of the Lego Cuusoo website it says that it is still the Beta version. I am optimistic that if there are major changes to the ways that the whole Lego Cuusoo website functions, that the tendencies of which projects succeed will change tremendously, for the better of true Lego fans. You can read more of what I have to say about this on the repley to the next quote.

About Purdue Pete: I didn't know about Purdue University, Purdue Pete, or even seen the Lego Cuusoo project for it until I logged in one day to see that it achieved 10 000 on the frontpage. The Cuusoo Project description failed to explain who the heck that guy is. I looked him up on Wikipedia to find that he was a mascot of Purdue University, mostly for the sports. But he is not the main official mascot of the University, but the other mascot is a steam locomotive called Boilermaker Special. A steam locomotive would work much better as a Lego set, as it could even be purchased by people who don't know about Purdue University. Alternately, the could have made an Architecture microscale model of the University.

Cuusoo is literally targeted at discovering niche communities and using fans to find the products that appeal to those communities. That is a stated goal. BUT Cuusoo is in Beta of course and there is very limited data on what Cuusoo will and will not go with in producing a Cuusoo product. There have only been three products selected for the global market. Minecraft, BttF, and Curiosity. Minecraft is also a stated exception to the normal run of things as can assumed be any project that "legitimatly" completes its 10,000 run in so short a time. This is not an assumption, Lego recognized the active market on Minecraft and speed up production....

We have a few rejects based on Brand Fit: Winchester, Serenity

We have some buisness and Legal whats?: Dark Bucket

A contractually prevented option: Modular Western

Inevitable Discovery: UCS Sandcrawler

Legend of Zelda: Basially a parts list

and then....Eve online: Rifter.

The Case for the Eve online: Market issue. Also stated on a TV interview the scale of the ship came up.

The comments that quantity of people interested is more important that intensity is absolutly correct. It is far better to have a lot of people with the minimal interest to buy your product than a handful with intense desire to buy your product. Kickstarter is a great way to walk the line on this however but that is a digression. This was part of our strategy though. "Many" fans called for the deluxe/UCS/minifig scale version of EACH ship! They are the fanatics but I even doubt that the majority of them would be willing to actually pay the price. We instead designed this set to be idea for casual fans of Lego and FTL. Big enough to be easily identifiable, small enough to be easily displayable, and cheap enough that we could accomidate a few ships to get as many fans as the models to buy into it.

Any comments regarding the general AFOL community vs FTL are a bit moot. Cuusoo is driven by non-afols. It is driven by fans of "X" that like Lego, not FOLS that like "X". 64% of users come to support a single Cuusoo project and never return.

Quite frankly any speculation about how likely a Lego FTL supporter is to buy an FTL product, either way, is also totally speculative. We have many people siting interest but that is more likely based on their willingness to post on random web sites ranter than propensity to purchase. Nobody here or anywhere else has polls on these people and I doubt the veracity of the feedback given to Lego by supporters anyway. It will take better and more resourced people then me to figure that out, as well as how big the market is for generic micro-scaled ships are in a medium that already is well occupied by Star Wars.

I am especially interested in the statistic that you have of throw-away accounts (which I bolded and underlined). I tried to search for the source of this information on Google, but I didn't find it. Please post the link to the page of this information. I think that the system of Lego Cuusoo should be changed to make it more difficult for non-fans of Lego to join.

I partially agree with your point that the quantity of supporters is more important than the dedication from each individual. My disagreement is that the more dedicated supporters are more likely to actually purchase the final product. It wouldn't help much to have a supporter that wouldn't remember the project a week later.

Yes, It is unfortunate that Lego Cuusoo as it currently works is better at testing peoples willingness to post things on the internet than the desire to buy for the set. I don't think that this issue is entirely unsolvable (on TLegoG's part). They should ask people why they are joining Lego Cuusoo when they sign-up, just as they ask why people would like a product idea. They could also figure out a way to involve the VIP program without entirely excluding the people who only buy from retailers and other reasons.

It is good that Lego Cuusoo is still Beta, as it has too many problems to work as the final version. I have recently been working on an essay; a proposal to reform the system of Lego Cuusoo. It should be packed with features to alter the tendencies of which projects succeed, by things such as ratings and improved advertising system. It would make barriers for non-fans of Lego at registration. I have some ideas to connect it with the VIP program (to prove legitimacy), but some of the ideas that I had on that might be considered a form of gambling. However, I have thought of one idea for VIP that could work, without excluding the non-VIP's. I might also find a way to give children some level of involvement in it. I should post it on the Embassy forum when I finish, and possibly send it in an email after some feedback.

About the Modular Western Town; I think it was unfair to turn it down. I never signed as a supporter for that one, as I am not much of a cowboy guy. I was however looking forward to it when it achieved, and happy that it proved that non-licensed projects have a chance of succeeding. Yes, I realize that Disney had already forbidden them from doing it in the contract that was already signed, to avoid competition with the Lone Ranger sets. What I am suggesting is that they delay the project until the Lone Ranger sets go out of production. Waiting 2 years for it would certainly be better than having it turned-down altogether.

I also have one more question for all of you here; There used to be a button on the right side of the Lego Cuusoo website labeled "feedback", which linked to a website called "get satisfaction" where people could suggest changes to the system of Lego Cuusoo. At one point I remember that on that website, it said that they were moving the feedback to a different website. Now I do not see a link to either feedback website on Lego Cuusoo. On Google search I can not find the new feedback site. What website is it now?

Edited July 29, 2013 by LiamM32

[Blondie-Wan]

Note the bolded and underlined section. Also, some licenses can be exclusive or can forbid us from working with competing brands. In other words some licenses, particularly some existing ones, may block a new separate license. This is the first real confirmation I have ever seen of some things that have long been rumored. As an example it has long been rumored that many Lucasfilms Star Wars licenses specifically blocked the license holder from also or simultaneously licensing certain competing SciFi properties. With Paramount's Star Trek being the big one. From this statement we can pretty safely surmise that those rumors are most likely true, or at least have been true in the past. (Who knows what Disney's views on the subject might now be?). And really think about it? What else could this statement really mean? Of Lego's existing licenses, how many have what would be considered "directly competing properties"? Harry Potter might block Percy Jackson sets? LotR might block Game of Thrones? I think Occam's Razor kind of leads us to more than suspect that yes the big elephant in the room is Star Wars, and yes they are really talking about Star Trek.

I may be wrong, but I strongly doubt this is what's meant by the "competing brands" part, actually; I think it refers more to brands competing with LEGO itself, i.e. other toy companies - the reason the official Toy Story sets didn't have Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head, Barbie & Ken, Slinky Dog, etc., and why they don't do My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic sets.

It could refer what you're saying it means, but the strongest evidence we have for that pertains not to Lucasfilm and Star Wars, but to Disney and The Lone Ranger. Of course, Disney now ultimately owns both, but still...

__________________

On another note, who actually runs CUUSOO? Did this start as a private fan group in Japan, or is it an actual part of the LEGO company, or what?

About the Modular Western Town; I think it was unfair to turn it down. I never signed as a supporter for that one, as I am not much of a cowboy guy. I was however looking forward to it when it achieved, and happy that it proved that non-licensed projects have a chance of succeeding. Yes, I realize that Disney had already forbidden them from doing it in the contract that was already signed, to avoid competition with the Lone Ranger sets. What I am suggesting is that they delay the project until the Lone Ranger sets go out of production. Waiting 2 years for it would certainly be better than having it turned-down altogether.

I've also wondered about this one. Does the fact that it was rejected once mean it can't be reevaluated later, when the contract with Disney is no longer an issue? It'd be most unfortunate if this were forever barred from being a set simply because of unfortunate timing when it initially garnered 10,000 supporters and entered the review stage.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Blondie-Wan

[Another Brick In The Wall]

About the Modular Western Town; I think it was unfair to turn it down. I never signed as a supporter for that one, as I am not much of a cowboy guy. I was however looking forward to it when it achieved, and happy that it proved that non-licensed projects have a chance of succeeding. Yes, I realize that Disney had already forbidden them from doing it in the contract that was already signed, to avoid competition with the Lone Ranger sets. What I am suggesting is that they delay the project until the Lone Ranger sets go out of production. Waiting 2 years for it would certainly be better than having it turned-down altogether.

The "hidden" issue with MWT is that the commission to the creator would have been more than CuuSoo envisaged, based on the cost each set equivalent to the current modulars x 5 sets.

I've also wondered about this one. Does the fact that it was rejected once mean it can't be reevaluated later, when the contract with Disney is no longer an issue? It'd be most unfortunate if this were forever barred from being a set simply because of unfortunate timing when it initially garnered 10,000 supporters and entered the review stage.

Yes, because they can bring it out in 2 years and not pay the commission to marshall_banana.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Another Brick In The Wall

[Aanchir]

On another note, who actually runs CUUSOO? Did this start as a private fan group in Japan, or is it an actual part of the LEGO company, or what?

Cuusoo started as a crowdsourcing platform not connected with the LEGO brand at all (see Cuusoo.com). LEGO Cuusoo was a LEGO-sponsored offshoot of that. I don't know for sure whether the LEGO Cuusoo moderators are in the employ of Cuusoo or the LEGO Group, to be perfectly honest. But I imagine it's probably the former.

[Faefrost]

The counter point to that is "vote for and support the projects you like and would pay for, but also except when a project fails review for reasons that are not completely apparent." No nerdraging. Lego is not evil because their license doesn't allow them to make the most awesomest set ever. They are simply limited by business case.

As cases in point see below

About the Modular Western Town; I think it was unfair to turn it down. I never signed as a supporter for that one, as I am not much of a cowboy guy. I was however looking forward to it when it achieved, and happy that it proved that non-licensed projects have a chance of succeeding. Yes, I realize that Disney had already forbidden them from doing it in the contract that was already signed, to avoid competition with the Lone Ranger sets. What I am suggesting is that they delay the project until the Lone Ranger sets go out of production. Waiting 2 years for it would certainly be better than having it turned-down altogether.

But we have no way of knowing the duration or terms of the license involved. You say waiting 2 years would be fine? But what if there s a second movie? What renews the license? What are the terms to end it? How long could they keep a project like MWT in a filing cabinet? 2 years? 10 years? And what if another conflict occurs within that time frame? What if TLG wishes to put forth a full blown Western Theme? Should they have some sort of liability or requirement based on a fan proposal severeal years old? They review based on the here and now. It's the only way something like CuuSoo can work. Also remember that license contracts have a broader period than the simple time that you see something on a store shelf. They will come into effect long before we see any outward sign of them. And they may last longer than is apparent. (As an example there is a good chance that the PotC license may still be in effect and blocking any unlicensed Pirates theme, because a 5th movie is in production. Because TLG sees such a magnitude of sales jump in a theme with a movie tie in, it can be more profitable for them to maintain the license and simply wait for the next movie.)

The "hidden" issue with MWT is that the commission to the creator would have been more than CuuSoo envisaged, based on the cost each set equivalent to the current modulars x 5 sets.

Yes, because they can bring it out in 2 years and not pay the commission to marshall_banana.

/sigh!

Ok let's take these one at a time. Point 1. No the issue is not the costs to be paid to the creator. Really they aren't. Thoses costs are calculated and evaluated as part of the business case review. If the set is too expensive to be profitable, it will fail the business case. It's that simple. CuuSoo is not "get 10k votes get made at the price the voters want". All the 10k does is get you a proposal and business review. If the set cannot sell 10,000 to 20,000 units at the price needed it will not be made. The creators commission is typically much less than $10,000, a very small piece of the entire project. (Packaging probably costs more).

Regarding the second point? They can bring what out in 2 years? A Western based set? Or Marshall's design? They can bring out a Western set today without owing Marshall anything. In fact they just did. Whereas to use Marshall's specific designs or a clear derivative if Marshall's designs then they will need to pay. As I said above, they base the pass / fail for CuuSoo on he immediate time frame, and not future speculation in part to avoid this sort of trap.

[Blondie-Wan]

Yes, because they can bring it out in 2 years and not pay the commission to marshall_banana.

I seriously doubt they'd actually resurrect mb's Western town design and turn it into a set without offering him anything.

Mind you, they could go and do Western town sets (as they have in the past), and just make sure they're not really like mb's design beyond drawing upon the same archetypal Western images, and thus not pay him anything, but if they really did a huge set along the lines of what mb submitted to CUUSOO I seriously doubt they'd ignore the fact he'd done so.

[Leewan]

Mmh... For the 10212, they directly took inspiration from this MOC. They recognized it, but did they gave any money to dmac ? I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a big Western modular out of the Cuusoo program, and thus avoid giving a percentage to Marshall Banana. Future will tell...

[Aanchir]

Mmh... For the 10212, they directly took inspiration from this MOC. They recognized it, but did they gave any money to dmac ? I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a big Western modular out of the Cuusoo program, and thus avoid giving a percentage to Marshall Banana. Future will tell...

That has a number of differences, though. For one, it's based on a very exact studio model from an external IP. And it was designed to fit with the Ultimate Collector Series of sets which TLG created in the first place. That means that dmac really has no ownership of the concept. As for using certain combinations of parts... that's where things get a bit puzzling. I know that with some subsequent UCS models that draw inspiration from AFOL MOCs, such as the UCS Jedi Starfighter, the designers have specifically asked the MOCists if they may use those combinations of parts.

If TLG they did release a big western modular as a non-Cuusoo set, then they wouldn't have to give Marshall Banana any credit unless they specifically used his model as inspiration. And why would they feel obligated to do that when there is a wealth of inspiration to be found in the many Western towns in popular culture and the real world? He does not own the concept of a modular Western town by any stretch of the imagination, and it's not like the average buyer would be that much more likely to buy a western modular just because it was inspired by a very particular MOC. Most people would buy the model based on its own merits: the parts, the complexity of the build, and the look of the final model.

Plus, for a non-Cuusoo set, TLG would be conducting their own market research anyway just to gauge demand. So even the negligible amount of information they'd have from seeing the Modular Western Town reach 10,000 supporters on LEGO Cuusoo would be practically worthless. All it would have told TLG was that there was at least a small audience for western sets, and the fact that they obtained the Lone Ranger license indicates that they already knew that much without needing any help from Cuusoo. The idea that LEGO Cuusoo gives TLG a wealth of free information that they can then sneakily put to their own use after rejecting the project in question is simply misguided — if LEGO Cuusoo gave TLG that much information on the market for a set, then they would be able to gauge demand for Cuusoo sets without producing the sets in such small initial batches.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Aanchir

[Another Brick In The Wall]

Ok let's take these one at a time. Point 1. No the issue is not the costs to be paid to the creator. Really they aren't. Thoses costs are calculated and evaluated as part of the business case review. If the set is too expensive to be profitable, it will fail the business case. It's that simple. CuuSoo is not "get 10k votes get made at the price the voters want". All the 10k does is get you a proposal and business review. If the set cannot sell 10,000 to 20,000 units at the price needed it will not be made. The creators commission is typically much less than $10,000, a very small piece of the entire project. (Packaging probably costs more).

Regarding the second point? They can bring what out in 2 years? A Western based set? Or Marshall's design? They can bring out a Western set today without owing Marshall anything. In fact they just did. Whereas to use Marshall's specific designs or a clear derivative if Marshall's designs then they will need to pay. As I said above, they base the pass / fail for CuuSoo on he immediate time frame, and not future speculation in part to avoid this sort of trap.

Please allow me to retort to your points:

1. CuuSoo is not a theme builder. It's for one-off projects. They idea they will be paying a non-TLG employee commission equivalent to what a TLG designer earns is incredulous. Do the math. $1.50 commission on every modular set x 50,000 sales x 5 sets.

2. Don't so obtuse and take everything i write so literally. They could modify the marshall_banana's plans, so there is no infringement in his design. TLG is a corporation not a charity organisation. They exist to maximize the profits of their shareholders. Clearly redesigning marshall_banana's work is the much cheaper option.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Another Brick In The Wall

[Blondie-Wan]

Please allow me to retort to your points:

1. CuuSoo is not a theme builder. It's for one-off projects. They idea they will be paying a non-TLG employee commission equivalent to what a TLG designer earns is incredulous. Do the math. $1.50 commission on every modular set x 50,000 sales x 5 sets.

It would be a lot of money for a regular person like one of us, sure, but it'd still be a small percentage of the overall production cost of making those sets for a large corporation like TLG. While 1% of the set price would be more than 1% of TLG's production cost, it's still not going to be something so significant that they'd either opt against making a set they'd otherwise make because of it, or find some way to "cheat" their way around it and make the set (as designed by mb) without paying mb the commission, and risk tarnishing their image (which is much more valuable than the revenue they might get from any one single set, no matter how expensive).

2. Don't so obtuse and take everything i write so literally. They could modify the marshall_banana's plans, so there is no infringement in his design. TLG is a corporation not a charity organisation. They exist to maximize the profits of their shareholders. Clearly redesigning marshall_banana's work is the much cheaper option.

Actually, the cheapest option is to just not issue anything like that set at all.

You sound as though you're really sure TLG is in fact going to issue a ginormous Western Town in a couple years, basing it on mb's design but not paying mb anything for it. While it could happen, I really doubt it.

The fact of the matter is that a) they were prevented from doing this set because of their The Lone Ranger license, which is nobody's fault but just some unfortunate bad timing for the submission; and b) this model, as wonderful as it was, was never a guaranteed winner even if The Lone Ranger weren't an issue - it'd be a huge, expensive monster of a set from a theme that has a tiny fraction of the devotees that something like Star Wars does. TLG might well have declined it purely on business case grounds alone.

[Faefrost]

Please allow me to retort to your points:

1. CuuSoo is not a theme builder. It's for one-off projects. They idea they will be paying a non-TLG employee commission equivalent to what a TLG designer earns is incredulous. Do the math. $1.50 commission on every modular set x 50,000 sales x 5 sets.

2. Don't so obtuse and take everything i write so literally. They could modify the marshall_banana's plans, so there is no infringement in his design. TLG is a corporation not a charity organisation. They exist to maximize the profits of their shareholders. Clearly redesigning marshall_banana's work is the much cheaper option.

I did do the math. CuuSoo is a short run single subject mechanism with an initial run of either 10,000 or 20,000. The number I quoted you is conservatively assuming the maximum designers cut for a very large $100 set at a 10,000 piece run or a more common $50 set at a 20,000 piece run. Assuming that CuuSoo would release any sets in the price range of the Modulars, UCS or large AFOL targeted exclusives is at best speculative fantasy. The business case analysis would need to show a clear fairly guaranteed target market and path to profitability for the set or subject. And honestly? Probably one of the few cases were they may have clear data for a small special run product in the $150-$300 range would be in an advanced Technic subject. Which is its own special niche and may not be indicative of other set pricing limits. I honestly don't see most CuuSoo sets crossing the $99 threshold any time soon.

If TLG likes Marshall's design, they can either produce it via CuuSoo or they can make some outside flat fee contractual arrangement to compensate him for it should they seek to produce it or something clearly derivative from it. They will do this because as you say, they are there to maximize profits to their shareholders. That means not doing questionable things to save pennies that have long term costs of dollars. They would either make a deal with Marshall, simply because it is cheaper and much better PR to pay Marshall then it is to pay the lawyer who would tell them they should have paid Marshall, and the PR person to undo the damage. Or they would simply make something else that has no potential conflict. (Note this applies to the MWT only. The Sandcrawler is a different story as it is likely that Lucasfilms would not allow them to pay Marshall as the designer of a design that Lucas already considers theirs.) The key point being that it is easier and cheaper for a company such as TLG to not create the conflict or the illusion of a conflict in the first place. Believe it or not, in most cases when faced with a choice corporations will in fact do the right thing, in large part because doing so is almost always the best business decision with the fewest risks or downsides.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Faefrost

[LiamM32]

Any comments regarding the general AFOL community vs FTL are a bit moot. Cuusoo is driven by non-afols. It is driven by fans of "X" that like Lego, not FOLS that like "X". 64% of users come to support a single Cuusoo project and never return.

I would like to repeat my unanswered question; Where did you read that statistic of 64% of Lego Cuusoo accounts? I would like the source of this information. I got very interested when I read that from you, but I couldn't find any other source of it on a Google search.

Mmh... For the 10212, they directly took inspiration from this MOC. They recognized it, but did they gave any money to dmac ? I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a big Western modular out of the Cuusoo program, and thus avoid giving a percentage to Marshall Banana. Future will tell...

Whoa! That MOC really is similar to the set (judging by the images). I am surprised to hear about that.

Edited July 30, 2013 by LiamM32

[Faefrost]

I would like to repeat my unanswered question; Where did you read that statistic of 64% of Lego Cuusoo accounts? I would like the source of this information. I got very interested when I read that from you, but I couldn't find any other source of it on a Google search.

Whoa! That MOC really is similar to the set (judging by the images). I am surprised to hear about that.

I believe GB is the direct source. He has a number of analytical tools that he runs against CuuSoo and offers a great deal of information on his Blog. While we all can debate how effective his tools are or what data points they are picking up (personally i trust them) he is actually the one doing the math himself and can be viewed as a valid and trustworthy source. He is not repeating something he read on the Internet. What he presents is his own data analysis and his methodology is sound.

[CopMike]

Wow, you guys really discuss this in-depth - Impressive, most impressive !

Just a small comment:

TLG is a corporation not a charity organisation. They exist to maximize the profits of their shareholders.

TLG isn´t corporation with shareholders. It´s a privately held company (and family-owned). They do a lot of charity also. But yeah, it´s a global company also.

[glenbricker]

I believe GB is the direct source. He has a number of analytical tools that he runs against CuuSoo and offers a great deal of information on his Blog. While we all can debate how effective his tools are or what data points they are picking up (personally i trust them) he is actually the one doing the math himself and can be viewed as a valid and trustworthy source. He is not repeating something he read on the Internet. What he presents is his own data analysis and his methodology is sound.

Duke is right, thanks for answering the question.

Running the Blog, Coding for the blog, writing articles for Brickset, and various other activities (I am running a Lego gaming event this weekend) often distract me from the random post I leave (sorry). If you would like to ask me a question, and have me see it the best place to do it is on my blog either in resonse to a posting or using the contact me link on my site. Thankfully someone brought your question to my attention directly.

The data is 100% accurate as of, maybe a month ago at this point. I need to update my code base to account to keeping the data fresh but given that it is based on all user data until a month ago, and that we have not noticed a severe change in user activity, it is likely still very accurate.

I accessed Cuusoo (same as everyone else can), optained every iota of data I found interesting into a database then I coded against the database. These numbers are not even appoximations, these are based on every account at the time the process was performed. Of the people with accounts that support a project on Cuusoo, 64% support 1 project only, 77% 2 or less, 88% 5 or less, 95.5% is 12 or less, 98.5% is 25 or less, 99.5% is 50 or less and the top 0.5% of supporters is Kilo reserves for the kilo-supportes and the like.

Here is a posting where I talk about some of the applications intended for said data: http://blog.brick-he...ekly-crowd.html

Edited July 31, 2013 by glenbricker

[PsyKater]

Just a small comment:

TLG isn´t corporation with shareholders. It´s a privately held company (and family-owned). They do a lot of charity also. But yeah, it´s a global company also.

Allow me a short reply to this. The family members are the shareholders.

[glenbricker]

It is good that Lego Cuusoo is still Beta, as it has too many problems to work as the final version. I have recently been working on an essay; a proposal to reform the system of Lego Cuusoo. It should be packed with features to alter the tendencies of which projects succeed, by things such as ratings and improved advertising system. It would make barriers for non-fans of Lego at registration. I have some ideas to connect it with the VIP program (to prove legitimacy), but some of the ideas that I had on that might be considered a form of gambling. However, I have thought of one idea for VIP that could work, without excluding the non-VIP's. I might also find a way to give children some level of involvement in it. I should post it on the Embassy forum when I finish, and possibly send it in an email after some feedback.

About the Modular Western Town; I think it was unfair to turn it down. I never signed as a supporter for that one, as I am not much of a cowboy guy. I was however looking forward to it when it achieved, and happy that it proved that non-licensed projects have a chance of succeeding. Yes, I realize that Disney had already forbidden them from doing it in the contract that was already signed, to avoid competition with the Lone Ranger sets. What I am suggesting is that they delay the project until the Lone Ranger sets go out of production. Waiting 2 years for it would certainly be better than having it turned-down altogether.

I also have one more question for all of you here; There used to be a button on the right side of the Lego Cuusoo website labeled "feedback", which linked to a website called "get satisfaction" where people could suggest changes to the system of Lego Cuusoo. At one point I remember that on that website, it said that they were moving the feedback to a different website. Now I do not see a link to either feedback website on Lego Cuusoo. On Google search I can not find the new feedback site. What website is it now?

For the most part I think Cuusoo is whatever its community of supportes makes it be within the Limits that Lego enforces. I take point with you saying "it has too many problems to work as the final version." It appears to be working perfectly well to me. People support projects, Projects get reviewed, Projects made into Products. That is the stated function of Cuusoo just like the function of a car is to deliver humands and cargo from one location to another. You can be dissatified with aspects of it but Lego Cuusoo has never defined any operating performance qualifications for them to meet. The Broken factors are thus likely your own opinion on what Cuusoo should be doing.

I think you might be interested in the FOL Cuusoo Campaign I am pushing though: http://blog.brick-he...o-campaign.html as it is about people taking action within the system to direct it to their own ends.

As for the Western Town, noncompete clauses also prevent you from openly endorcing future products and not killing it is walking the line (hense the Frisco at 1k: http://blog.brick-he...-to-10k_21.html). Despite the Lone Ranger performance there is still discussion of a sequel to the pont that contracts were written with them (with the actors at least) and this likely keeps Lego's hands bound going into the future for quite some time to come.

As for kids participation, do you mean in submitting projects? They "can" and they cannot be cause of a Legal issue oustide of Legos hands.

A minor may submit a project though their parent/guardian. A minor cannot submit a project on their own because you cannot make a binding legal contract with a minor and that is what you are doing when you are submitting a project.

knowledgebase is the new website for feedback and rulliness

Edited July 31, 2013 by glenbricker

[Faefrost]

I think the biggest areas that CuuSoo needs to work on remain better mechanisms for presenting projects to casual visitors and browsers. We don't want the niche supporters to have a hard time voting for the stuff they like. We need the system to be better at showing them more stuff that they would like and hooking them on other projects. Because guess what. Pretty much all of we AFOLs were "niche " fans the day we ended our dark ages. The day we found this hobby. Something brought us back. Rather than being upset at what that something is for a different group, leverage it. Better search tools and category tools available from the front page. Being able to drill down based on subjects of interest, and not simply a semi random and user defined "search tags" system of categorization. Better rotating banners that pull from the full breadth of the pool of projects, not simply the most recent and most supported. Etc.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Faefrost