Baritones 3: Day Three

[iamded]

Hah! Hahaha! Good job Mr or Mrs. Poisoner, you hit the nail on the head this time! Although there's still the fact that you're probably a serial killer or a member of another Mafia, but in future please try to restrict your killings to Mafia scum. Thank-you.

Now, it seems voting is open. Reeeally tempted to place a vote against Donil. If we're wrong about him then we'll be losing a townie with a helpful night action, if we're wrong about him and vote for someone else he'll no doubt be killed by a Mafia. If we're right about him though, we'll have nailed a scum killer.

I'm thinking that the scum share their night actions, so really we'll have just taken out a scum goon and they'll still be able to kill, but it's just a thought.

[def]

As for the Ruxana/Donil case, I'm completely unsure of what do to do right now. I've trusted Donil all along, and he doesn't deny targeting Yuri last night. I have a feeling that both of them may be town, and voting them off will get us nowhere. I guess there's only one way to find out, but I will hold my vote for a while longer, to see what happens.

I think there's a definite possibility they're both town, though I wish Ruxana would be more forthcoming. But it's that exact possibility that makes this stand out:

As for Donil, I said I'd vote (and we'd hold Ruxana responsible if it turns out wrong), so here we go.

Vote: Donil (Waterbrick Down)

Stanislav has a lot of confidence in convicting Donil, and if they turn out to be town? Well, you can convict Ruxana the next day. Great strategy, except they could both be telling the truth, in which case, that's only great strategy for scum, and would successfully get two ability townies voted out

I might not bring it up, but Stanislav has been on my radar since the first day when he directly contradicted his own logic and helped seal the fate of a townie, again, something a scum would have no trouble doing.

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58660&view=findpost&p=1046633

I don't see a solid direction to follow at this point, and if it continues, I probably won't vote at all unless there really is some penalty for that. Has such a thing been confirmed?

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58660&view=findpost&p=1047430

I guess it's bandwagon day. Given the threat of a penalty, I'm not going to be the only one who doesn't vote.

Of course, ten people didn't vote that day, so he wasn't in any fear of being the only one. It all looks way too scummy to me.

It's all circumstantial though, and I wanted it to be out there for the town to keep in mind as we choose between these two. Stanislav seems happy to take them both out.

***I might not bring it up I might not have brought it up

[Waterbrick Down]

Alright, it's time to put confusion aside. I'll admit an unblockable scum tracker is possible but highly unprobable. I have no problem with Ruxana, she is obviously doing her job and helping this town out, however I am dissapointed that mixup occured in the first place. I'm glad the day will end on somewhat of a happy note with the poisoning of Max, but I am worried about the day that will follow my conviction.

After continual reviewal of the killings, we know that the Russian Mafia obviously used the revolver. That leaves us with the Tommy Gun killer and poisoner, one is part of the mafia and the other either a serial killer or vigilante. So if the tommy gun killer is the "other" mafia and I am supposedly he, then that makes the killer of Sarah and Max a vigilante what are the motives from a vigilante's perspective? From what I can tell in both their public posts there is virtually nothing. As has already been stated from a serial killer's perspective both Sarah and Max were likely unprotected or unwatched mafia and thus were easy targets, thus far there are more reasons to believe a serial killer took out Sarah and Max.

Now on the flipside supposing the "other" mafia is the poisoner and the Vigilante/Serial killer is the Tommy Gun weilder. The same reasons that applied to the Serial Killer in the first scenario would also apply to the "other" mafia in this one, thus explaining the hit's on Sarah and Max. Now viewing the deaths of Eugene and Yuri from a vigilante/serial killer perspective, both Eugene and Yuri in hindsight were both town and from their posts would have appeared to confirm that. From a Serial Killer's point of view, both Eugene and Yuri's death's could have been seen as framings of their previous accusers and accusees Nika and Roncanator. Which ever way you look at it the serial killer's motives out weigh the vigilante's.

Hopefully you're all holding on to me here, and not skipping along as Roncantor has mistakenly accused me of trying to do to you. From an analysis of both scenerio's the Serial Killer always seems to overshadow the Vigilante in terms of killing motives. It also interests me that after three days no one has heard hide nor tail from this confused Vigilante. This doesn't make sense, if they were listening to any of the conversation I would think they could find at least one trusted townie whom they could confide in. However if there was a Serial Killer hiding amoung us it naturally makes sense that he would not contact anyone and would try to keep his actions confused as those of a Vigilante.

Now, I am also not a fan of accusing one's accusors but if I'm going to die tonight I might as well get you townies thinking. While other's may have supported the idea of a vigilante for sometime, there is one who sticks out to me as the ultimate example of pushing for the Vigilante to come forward and make smart decisions. That person is Stanislav, time and time again I keep hearing him shouting his Vigilante theory and I think he's gone far enough in purporting that just because I show up as town after a conviction that means Roncanator is scum. I have already answered Roncanator's claims and there is another explanation aside from the "if not him, it must be him" theory, it would seem like Stanislav is trying to "have his cake and eat it too" in getting two town night roles killed off one after another. I find it interesting noting Stanislav voting style, always with no explanation just a quick "bandwagon vote" it happened with Benji, it happened with Petr, and after Ruxana's accusation today, look who was quick with the, well that's enough for me I'll vote him off before he even has a chance to explain himself, shtick. I've got nothing else to lose so I might as well get this town thinking and right now I'm thinking Stanislav is the Serial Killer.

So I'm going to vote:

Stanislav (Shadows)

Hopefully everyone was able to follow me, I'll take any questions you've got. I feel like I've answered Roncanator's claims and there isn't much I can do about it now, so I'm going after all that I've got left.

[def]

I've got nothing else to lose so I might as well get this town thinking and right now I'm thinking Stanislav is the Serial Killer.

Well, I already think his voting and rationale are suspicious, but I think Badboy was killed by the scum; a tommy gun was used. That obviously looks like mafia, doesn't it? If Stanislav was involved, it would have to be as scum, not the SK.

[Waterbrick Down]

Well, I already think his voting and rationale are suspicious, but I think Badboy was killed by the scum; a tommy gun was used. That obviously looks like mafia, doesn't it? If Stanislav was involved, it would have to be as scum, not the SK.

Of my two scenerios I think that the Serial Killer being the poisoner since all the motives I've supplied point to this as the most probable. It is more likely that Yuri was scum killed, even though I know this still keeps me under suspicion. However I've already addressed this suspicion with my "snooping" role and am working against the only other person I feel deserves suspicion today which is Stanislav.

[JimBee]

Either way, in this situation Stanislav looks dangerous. Serial killer or not, we've lost many townies from night kills. Now, like I said earlier, I think that it is a great possibility that Ruxana and Donil are both town. I trust both of them, especially since they've revealed their night actions. While they may be lying, I doubt they would risk being targeted by anyone even if they were. Especially this serial killer that seems to exist.

I agree with what Denis and Donil have said, Stanislav seems a bit suspicious right now... I will wait to hear his counterarguments.

[Tamamono]

Everyone's main reason for voting out Donil is that he's probably 'the scum killer'. However, we know from past situations like this that the killing action always gets passed down from scum to scum. If both Ruxana and Donil are scum (or even if just one of them is), then I think voting out the one who is 'unblockable' is the better idea.

I'm not going to cast my vote until I hear from Ruxana about the whole 'unblockable' issue, but I really think that she's the right choice today.

[Hinckley]

Mod note: Sorry to be picky, guys, but please make sure you are voting in the correct format. Vote: character (player) I know it seems a bit anal retentive of me, but it really does help. I know it's really picky to insist on the exact format, but if I let it slip at all, it'll really start to slip. If there's any confusion over the format, just double-check the rule. Thanks.

[Waterbrick Down]

Mod note: Sorry to be picky, guys, but please make sure you are voting in the correct format. Vote: character (player) I know it seems a bit anal retentive of me, but it really does help. I know it's really picky to insist on the exact format, but if I let it slip at all, it'll really start to slip. If there's any confusion over the format, just double-check the rule. Thanks.

Point taken thanks. My accusation still stands.

Vote: Stanislav (Shadows)

[Zepher]

Here here Donil. I listed him as a suspect yesterday, and off my list of suspects from yesterday he is the only one who still stands out to me. Basically for the same reason that you have. Quietly, with minute posts, pushing for votes. Extremely scummy. Vote: Stanislav (Shadows). Now, on to what our dear cross-dressing construction man said... what exactly did he mean? We're not looking in the right places for clues? Where else can we look... did anyone get any interesting messages from heaven last night?

[RileyC]

She could be a Townie who has been tricked by someone, but in that case I think she would've worded her accusation to be less direct and affirmative.

I have not been tricked by anyone else, only I have been involved with this, Yuri did direct me to following Donil, but I was the one who followed Donil and got the results I wanted. There was no others involved. Im damn sure about this. I know if in some crazy was she turns out town, yeah my head will be next and Im ready to face that.

Yuri also forwarded me some threatening letters he got from Ruxana. In one of them Ruxana said "It is indeed an odd role but I am town and will definitely need to stick around in this game for us town to actually win." After that, she offered Yuri help, asking him who he thought she should target with her night action - without explaining what her night action actually did. If that's not posing helpfulness, I don't know what is.

Actually, I explained it to him right before I said that.

As for the strong-arm, it's an ability. I can use it, in conjunction with my follow ability, to make it so that my night action cannot be blocked. I can either use it or not, I have the choice to. So on night one I used the strong-arm ability to test it really and it just so happened Yuri was trying to block me. This is by far no "nasty" night action at all.

But wow! A godfather? Thats amazing luck! Let's just hope there's not two of them.

So I have my reasons. Vote:Donil (Waterbrick Down) Donil has though explained how and why he targeted Yuri. However I don't believe it. I think that to have two people targeting Yuri on one given night is just too improbable in my opinion. This is because Yuri had not really made a name for himself or made himself a target for the scum, in my opinion. That's why I came to the conclusion that Donil was Yuri's killer.

[Shadows]

I hate these long posts, but since Ruxana and her supporters are trying to split us up and flood the topic with nonsense, I have no choice but to reply accordingly. I will not, however, let this turn into pages of fighting. If people can't see the truth, then we will continue to fail like we have so far.

Stanislav has a lot of confidence in convicting Donil, and if they turn out to be town? Well, you can convict Ruxana the next day. Great strategy, except they could both be telling the truth, in which case, that's only great strategy for scum, and would successfully get two ability townies voted out

Ruxana stepped forward with info that I feel we should act on, I'm sorry if you disagree, but no, I don't think both could be telling the truth here and the smartest test of that is to vote out Donil who has the best chance of being the scum killer. If you're not worried about that, maybe there's a reason you don't need to and you would like to share it?

And no, I don't like that voting is a chance matter, but it's all we've got and denying that makes anyone who places a vote into a hypocrite.

I might not bring it up, but Stanislav has been on my radar since the first day when he directly contradicted his own logic and helped seal the fate of a townie, again, something a scum would have no trouble doing.

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58660&view=findpost&p=1046633

A lot of people joined that vote, are we all scum? Is there some reason to point me out specifically, or is it just because I'm on to Donil and we need another split vote so more townies can die in the madness of the fool moon?

Of course, ten people didn't vote that day, so he wasn't in any fear of being the only one. It all looks way too scummy to me.

Perhaps I should have worded it better, but my concern was not reaching a conviction. Does anyone remember what happened when we didn't? Seems my concerns were well founded.

It's all circumstantial though, and I wanted it to be out there for the town to keep in mind as we choose between these two. Stanislav seems happy to take them both out.

No, I'd be thrilled to take out Donil and learn that he's the scum killer and we've scored both a victory and a chance to potentially trust someone. That is our goal here. At least it's mine.

After continual reviewal of the killings, we know that the Russian Mafia obviously used the revolver. That leaves us with the Tommy Gun killer and poisoner, one is part of the mafia and the other either a serial killer or vigilante. So if the tommy gun killer is the "other" mafia and I am supposedly he, then that makes the killer of Sarah and Max a vigilante what are the motives from a vigilante's perspective? From what I can tell in both their public posts there is virtually nothing. As has already been stated from a serial killer's perspective both Sarah and Max were likely unprotected or unwatched mafia and thus were easy targets, thus far there are more reasons to believe a serial killer took out Sarah and Max.

Now on the flipside supposing the "other" mafia is the poisoner and the Vigilante/Serial killer is the Tommy Gun weilder. The same reasons that applied to the Serial Killer in the first scenario would also apply to the "other" mafia in this one, thus explaining the hit's on Sarah and Max. Now viewing the deaths of Eugene and Yuri from a vigilante/serial killer perspective, both Eugene and Yuri in hindsight were both town and from their posts would have appeared to confirm that. From a Serial Killer's point of view, both Eugene and Yuri's death's could have been seen as framings of their previous accusers and accusees Nika and Roncanator. Which ever way you look at it the serial killer's motives out weigh the vigilante's.

The problem is, we don't know any of that. We don't know that there are two parties, a serial killer, or even a vigilante. I've suspected a vigilante as it's a common practice and we had two killings in one night, neither of which seemed like a serial killer.

It also interests me that after three days no one has heard hide nor tail from this confused Vigilante. This doesn't make sense, if they were listening to any of the conversation I would think they could find at least one trusted townie whom they could confide in.

That would be foolish. In previous games of life, such a person ends up killed by the town. I could cite many instances of that, including one that occurred in this very town. I'm sure Ivan remembers it. Heck, Samuel should well remember it, his own daughter Darlene went to prison for it. If the vigilante was good enough to be able to identify someone to trust, they probably wouldn't be making potential mistakes in their killing, either. No, this theory is just silly.

However if there was a Serial Killer hiding amoung us it naturally makes sense that he would not contact anyone and would try to keep his actions confused as those of a Vigilante.

Since they would be neutral, they wouldn't contact anyone, the idea that they need their work confused with a vigilante is pointless, vigilante or serial killer, one of them is killing the wrong people. I asked them to be more careful after what I believed was the first one, and then another occurred, but there's no way to tell who did it. For all I know, they may have stopped after the first mistake.

Whatever the case, the likelihood of there not being a vigilante is nearly 0%, so I wouldn't deny their existence as an excuse to create a role we don't know exists.

Now, I am also not a fan of accusing one's accusors but if I'm going to die tonight I might as well get you townies thinking. While other's may have supported the idea of a vigilante for sometime, there is one who sticks out to me as the ultimate example of pushing for the Vigilante to come forward and make smart decisions. That person is Stanislav, time and time again I keep hearing him shouting his Vigilante theory and I think he's gone far enough in purporting that just because I show up as town after a conviction that means Roncanator is scum.

Right, you're not a fan of that, you just did it instantly.

And yes, you're damn right I believe in a vigilante. I've NEVER seen a town without one. NEVER. Perhaps I have a bit more experience in this matter than you do, but there are a lot of us who have been through this before and if they aren't scum and take the time to think a bit, they'll know this is true. If they won't take the time or effort, there's nothing much I can say.

As for you coming up town, IF that is the case, and I sincerely doubt it, I would not automatically assume that Ruxana is scum (though a lot of the town always seems to think that both she and Donil are), but I would expect some good answers, hopefully someone would investigate her as I have already suggested and you conveniently failed to mention.

I have already answered Roncanator's claims

He doesn't seem convinced of that, unless I've missed something.

and there is another explanation aside from the "if not him, it must be him" theory, it would seem like Stanislav is trying to "have his cake and eat it too" in getting two town night roles killed off one after another.

To be perfectly blunt, the town is performing so badly that if I was scum, I'd keep my mouth shut and just watch as townie after townie is idiotically murdered. I wouldn't bother supporting a vote and I certainly wouldn't put my neck out to do so. You really don't understand how scum work, do you?

I find it interesting noting Stanislav voting style, always with no explanation just a quick "bandwagon vote" it happened with Benji, it happened with Petr, and after Ruxana's accusation today, look who was quick with the, well that's enough for me I'll vote him off before he even has a chance to explain himself, shtick. I've got nothing else to lose so I might as well get this town thinking and right now I'm thinking Stanislav is the Serial Killer.

My first vote was bandwagon, I said it and I take the same guilt as anyone else for it. My second was hurried but sincere, I don't trust Petr at all. I announced I would vote for you today, and I did. If I was scum, I'd let someone else take that heat, but it's fine, you carry on with the distraction and the vote split and if the older members of the town are worth saving, they won't fall for it.

However I've already addressed this suspicion with my "snooping" role and am working against the only other person I feel deserves suspicion today which is Stanislav.

Like I said, the person you explained it to doesn't seem convinced. Neither am I. My vote stands.

Here here Donil. I listed him as a suspect yesterday, and off my list of suspects from yesterday he is the only one who still stands out to me. Basically for the same reason that you have. Quietly, with minute posts, pushing for votes. Extremely scummy. Vote: Stanislav (Shadows).

Of course I'm the only one that still stands out, even though there are people in this town who know I'm innocent and won't be fooled.

Extremely scummy is trying to get people to tell you info, then them dying. Again and again. Don't think I've stopped looking in your direction, I just can't get the town to resist being distracted by your supporters and behind-the-scenes manipulations. The truth will come out, though, I guarantee it.

So I have my reasons. Vote:Donil (Waterbrick Down) Donil has though explained how and why he targeted Yuri. However I don't believe it. I think that to have two people targeting Yuri on one given night is just too improbable in my opinion. This is because Yuri had not really made a name for himself or made himself a target for the scum, in my opinion. That's why I came to the conclusion that Donil was Yuri's killer.

I appreciate that you stand behind your words, it greatly improves my faith in you.

I hope it isn't a trick.

[Waterbrick Down]

I have not been tricked by anyone else, only I have been involved with this, Yuri did direct me to following Donil, but I was the one who followed Donil and got the results I wanted. There was no others involved. Im damn sure about this. I know if in some crazy was she turns out town, yeah my head will be next and Im ready to face that.

Actually, I explained it to him right before I said that.

As for the strong-arm, it's an ability. I can use it, in conjunction with my follow ability, to make it so that my night action cannot be blocked. I can either use it or not, I have the choice to. So on night one I used the strong-arm ability to test it really and it just so happened Yuri was trying to block me. This is by far no "nasty" night action at all.

But wow! A godfather? Thats amazing luck! Let's just hope there's not two of them.

So I have my reasons. Vote:Donil (Waterbrick Down) Donil has though explained how and why he targeted Yuri. However I don't believe it. I think that to have two people targeting Yuri on one given night is just too improbable in my opinion. This is because Yuri had not really made a name for himself or made himself a target for the scum, in my opinion. That's why I came to the conclusion that Donil was Yuri's killer.

I am not agianst your result, I am however against your assumption that Yuri had not done anything the other day to make himself a target. To be blunt, he basically came out and asked for whom to block or whom to target with a scum kill. It obviously attracted a Scum killer trying to get rid of him as a blocker and it attracted me thinking he was a scum looking for power roles.

[Dragonator]

Yes! That random act of violence in the street just made my day a whole lot brighter! We finally got one, and the godfather at that, which is always a bonus. I too am a little concerned by the choice of wording. "Russian Mafia" does seem to suggest either an overly pedantic God or the presence of another faction. Not really sure which is more likely at this point.

At this point, we seem to have a lot of options as to what we do. There is the evidence against Donil, the suspicions from yesterday, although those seem to have been forgotten with the new revelations, and now a retaliation from the accused, who is voting for Stanislav. We need to make a conviction today, so I'm a bit dubious about Donil's reasoning. I do find it very interesting that Petr is so quick to support the vote, too.

I need to give this some thought, the conversation up to this point has been so convoluted I need to go over it again just to try and figure out what everyone is trying to argue.

[Rick]

I'm thinking that the scum share their night actions, so really we'll have just taken out a scum goon and they'll still be able to kill, but it's just a thought.

I agree, the kill will likely pass on among the Russian mafia, but still, hitting the godfather is great news, because he'd probably be hard to track down or investigate. And from last night's events, it seems indeed that he was doing the dirty work himself (at least last night), dressed up as Padme.

This is by far no "nasty" night action at all.

Not if you're a townie, no.

But wow! A godfather? Thats amazing luck! Let's just hope there's not two of them.

Well, the wording certainly suggests more than one mafia family.

Donil has though explained how and why he targeted Yuri. However I don't believe it. I think that to have two people targeting Yuri on one given night is just too improbable in my opinion. This is because Yuri had not really made a name for himself or made himself a target for the scum, in my opinion. That's why I came to the conclusion that Donil was Yuri's killer.

Yuri was not exactly an improbable target last night in my opinion.

Although I think Ruxana's role, a tracker with a 'strong-arm' option, is a slightly more likely town role than a 'weak' tracker, which Donil claims, I do wonder about the choice of target. What exactly made Ruxana follow Donil last night?

[def]

Ruxana stepped forward with info that I feel we should act on, I'm sorry if you disagree, but no, I don't think both could be telling the truth here and the smartest test of that is to vote out Donil who has the best chance of being the scum killer. If you're not worried about that, maybe there's a reason you don't need to and you would like to share it?

Really? Don't you have experience in these things? I could swear you use that as a form of justifying your opinion here and there.

Like, that old Forest movie, I remember the Hippo tracking the Elephant the first night, and having three people target him. But, Mr. Experience thinks it couldn't be

And no, I don't like that voting is a chance matter, but it's all we've got and denying that makes anyone who places a vote into a hypocrite.

A lot of people joined that vote, are we all scum? Is there some reason to point me out specifically, or is it just because I'm on to Donil and we need another split vote so more townies can die in the madness of the fool moon?

Did I say that? Or did you just make up a straw man argument? <<"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.">> I didn't put you on my radar for placing a vote, and I didn't say anything of the kind. You got there for saying you probably wouldn't vote, and didn't think much of the penalty, then your next post a day later you voted because of a penalty, which wasn't even a penalty in the rules. Your inconsistency was noticeable, and trying to call suspicion to me for paying attention is again scummy.

Again, you have experience, you I don't think you're mispeaking, and I don't think you misheard what I said. You're just being suspicious.

Perhaps I should have worded it better, but my concern was not reaching a conviction. Does anyone remember what happened when we didn't? Seems my concerns were well founded.

Well, you weren't really worried about reaching a conviction, because you specifically said you weren't (no need for me to quote you again, is there?), and we still haven't seen what God's penalty is, so what are you talking about There were three kills, one was the tommy gun killer, the second the poison, and the third was most likely Max, who drank the 'medicine' as Padme. No God-kill.

No, I'd be thrilled to take out Donil and learn that he's the scum killer and we've scored both a victory and a chance to potentially trust someone. That is our goal here. At least it's mine.

Me too, but your "defense" looks way scummier than Donil's so far. If you didn't manipulate the stuff I said, and then acknowledged the stuff you said, and then just simply make stuff up, I'd feel a little better.

We have lots of time in the day to get some more info.

[def]

"Well, you weren't really worried about reaching a conviction, because you specifically said you weren't (no need for me to quote you again, is there?),"

Sorry, that wasn't quite right, you said you probably weren't going to vote, and never mentioned a conviction My deepest apologies Stanislav.

[Waterbrick Down]

I hate these long posts, but since Ruxana and her supporters are trying to split us up and flood the topic with nonsense, I have no choice but to reply accordingly. I will not, however, let this turn into pages of fighting. If people can't see the truth, then we will continue to fail like we have so far.

"Truth" this is coming from the guy who made his vote known before his accusee had an opportunity to defend himself.

Ruxana stepped forward with info that I feel we should act on, I'm sorry if you disagree, but no, I don't think both could be telling the truth here and the smartest test of that is to vote out Donil who has the best chance of being the scum killer. If you're not worried about that, maybe there's a reason you don't need to and you would like to share it?

And no, I don't like that voting is a chance matter, but it's all we've got and denying that makes anyone who places a vote into a hypocrite.

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be acted on, but that it should be acting on with caution, as far as the smartest test you can ask Ruxana herself, I can prove myself innocent. The only problem is you seem to want to take me out before that can happen. If you were town I would think you would like to save as many townies as you can, instead you're already set for a lynching. This like all of your previous votes, seems lke a killing motive all show and no substance. You are ready to swing the axe as long as you're only doing it in the name of others.

A lot of people joined that vote, are we all scum? Is there some reason to point me out specifically, or is it just because I'm on to Donil and we need another split vote so more townies can die in the madness of the fool moon?

Perhaps I should have worded it better, but my concern was not reaching a conviction. Does anyone remember what happened when we didn't? Seems my concerns were well founded.

Unless you know something the rest of don't, I haven't been able to find anything relating the today's death to the "madness of the fool moon".

No, I'd be thrilled to take out Donil and learn that he's the scum killer and we've scored both a victory and a chance to potentially trust someone. That is our goal here. At least it's mine.

Again I would encourage you to talk ask Ruxana for how I can be proven innocent, this would save us a townie and also give us someone to trust, but in the end I know you'd be all too happen to get rid of a townie even if it may cost you in confirming Roncanator.

The problem is, we don't know any of that. We don't know that there are two parties, a serial killer, or even a vigilante. I've suspected a vigilante as it's a common practice and we had two killings in one night, neither of which seemed like a serial killer.

Woah, hold up you are still not providing any evidence about there being a vigilante. I have given several valid reasons why a Serial Killer is a distinct possibility and yet you continue to hammer on a vigilante and you're only reason is what some past movies refer to as "meta-gaming".

That would be foolish. In previous games of life, such a person ends up killed by the town. I could cite many instances of that, including one that occurred in this very town. I'm sure Ivan remembers it. Heck, Samuel should well remember it, his own daughter Darlene went to prison for it. If the vigilante was good enough to be able to identify someone to trust, they probably wouldn't be making potential mistakes in their killing, either. No, this theory is just silly.

This point could be argued either way. Your argument is that if the vigilante was making dumb kills they must not be in contact with anyone. However my argument is that since the vigilante is making such "dumb" kills that make complete sense for a Serial Killer to perform, the vigilante must be in fact a Serial Killer. You are again denying the logic and are resorting to simply calling it sillyness.

Since they would be neutral, they wouldn't contact anyone, the idea that they need their work confused with a vigilante is pointless, vigilante or serial killer, one of them is killing the wrong people. I asked them to be more careful after what I believed was the first one, and then another occurred, but there's no way to tell who did it. For all I know, they may have stopped after the first mistake.

I agree the Serial killer would not contact anyone, however a serial killer hiding as a vigilante always gives the town more assurance and provides an easy excuse should the he be caught in the act. I still disagree with you that the vigilante would be killing the wrong people, unfortunately for Sarah and thankfully for Max, both did not contribute much and were more than likely not to be protected at night or watched, perfect targets for a serial killer. As to them stopping after they made there first mistake, I don't see how you can back this up in anyway given the deaths thus far.

Whatever the case, the likelihood of there not being a vigilante is nearly 0%, so I wouldn't deny their existence as an excuse to create a role we don't know exists.

I wouldn't expect a Serial Killer to claim anything less, and my role-claim as the snoop in no way effects whether anyone exists or not, you still have three deaths to account for and according to your own words there is now way that one scum team could have 2 kills. You're just making potshots in the dark here without backing anything up so you can get the heat off of yourself.

Right, you're not a fan of that, you just did it instantly.

Actually to be perfectly correct, my accuser would be Ruxana and I never did accuse her

And yes, you're damn right I believe in a vigilante. I've NEVER seen a town without one. NEVER. Perhaps I have a bit more experience in this matter than you do, but there are a lot of us who have been through this before and if they aren't scum and take the time to think a bit, they'll know this is true. If they won't take the time or effort, there's nothing much I can say.

I'm tired of you're continual yapping on this issue, you're only reason to suspect this is from "meta-gaming" not to mention that it conveniently saves your hide from being accused as the Serial Killer.

As for you coming up town, IF that is the case, and I sincerely doubt it, I would not automatically assume that Ruxana is scum (though a lot of the town always seems to think that both she and Donil are), but I would expect some good answers, hopefully someone would investigate her as I have already suggested and you conveniently failed to mention.

Sorry but you said it first, it's up for the town to make up the mind whether that's what you meant.

To be perfectly blunt, the town is performing so badly that if I was scum, I'd keep my mouth shut and just watch as townie after townie is idiotically murdered. I wouldn't bother supporting a vote and I certainly wouldn't put my neck out to do so. You really don't understand how scum work, do you?

Am I supposed to understand how the scum work?

My first vote was bandwagon, I said it and I take the same guilt as anyone else for it. My second was hurried but sincere, I don't trust Petr at all. I announced I would vote for you today, and I did. If I was scum, I'd let someone else take that heat, but it's fine, you carry on with the distraction and the vote split and if the older members of the town are worth saving, they won't fall for it.

The Petr issue has gone back and forth enough and I think most of the town agree with me that Petr is on our side. You keep on saying what you would do if you were scum, this is hardly logical since you wouldn't say what you would do if you were scum anyways.

Like I said, the person you explained it to doesn't seem convinced. Neither am I. My vote stands.

Of course I'm the only one that still stands out, even though there are people in this town who know I'm innocent and won't be fooled.

Again more nonsense, unless you know something we don't about certain individuals aren't telling us, but I find this highly unlikely.

Extremely scummy is trying to get people to tell you info, then them dying. Again and again. Don't think I've stopped looking in your direction, I just can't get the town to resist being distracted by your supporters and behind-the-scenes manipulations. The truth will come out, though, I guarantee it.

I've already handled this .

I appreciate that you stand behind your words, it greatly improves my faith in you.

His words yes, his assumptions no. Time will tell whom was the one to have faith in and when that time comes I hope the town will look closely not at the bearer of the news but the one who has twisted it.

Alright, while I hate to leave this fight, my bed job of patrolling the streets for lose crocodiles is calling my name. I will be back after my shift to continue this endeavour.

[Sandy]

Oh wow, a godfather is dead! It's a great thing to us Townies, but I think we're forgetting the option that the Russian Mafia had an usurper who needed to get their leader killed, and they recruited the poisoner to kill Max. Sounds farfetched, I know, but I've seen it happen in movies before.

Now, what comes to voting, I'm not ready to give neither Ruxana nor Donil a pass as a Townie just yet, but it looks like we have a more likely target now. I'm sorry, Stanislav, but even though you posed helpfulness in our private letter exchange, I always had that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that you're deceiving me. What you've said today has only increased my suspicions. It's assuring that instead one of the people accused being the one to point the finger at you, it was Denis.

That's why, and here's to hoping this works, I vote: Stanislav (Shadows).

[Zepher]

No, it's quite likely that you're being used by someone you've trusted too much and it's getting people killed. It's also possible, especially in the case of Eugene, that you're trying too hard to look innocent by giving out information no one can confirm based on supposed conversations with a dead man. It's actually making you look bad, leaving the cautious members of the town wary of anything you say.

You might want to look at what information you have given and received and see if there's something odd in there, like someone telling you too much or suggesting things that aren't exactly working out well.

I'm being used by the scum.

Of course I'm the only one that still stands out, even though there are people in this town who know I'm innocent and won't be fooled.

Extremely scummy is trying to get people to tell you info, then them dying. Again and again. Don't think I've stopped looking in your direction, I just can't get the town to resist being distracted by your supporters and behind-the-scenes manipulations. The truth will come out, though, I guarantee it.

Oh, wait, now you're accusing me of being scum again after I vote for you...

I do find it very interesting that Petr is so quick to support the vote, too.

Perhaps it is because of the reasons Petr, who is me, listed. I already suspected him. In fact, I said yesterday I suspected him... publicly. So you can go confirm it yourself. He is my prime suspect currently, why would I not vote for him?

Also, things to note, that I'm afraid we are losing in the hustle and bustle of each day. We still have not figured out the full moon festival.

[Shadows]

Now, what comes to voting, I'm not ready to give neither Ruxana nor Donil a pass as a Townie just yet

You very clearly said you were sure they were both scum, but let me guess, you're willing to ignore that for a while to take care of me, for wanting to bring one of them to justice.

but it looks like we have a more likely target now. I'm sorry, Stanislav, but even though you posed helpfulness in our private letter exchange, I always had that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that you're deceiving me. What you've said today has only increased my suspicions. It's assuring that instead one of the people accused being the one to point the finger at you, it was Denis.

You came to me asking if I could help figure out why you can't vote based on my comment during that day. I told you I couldn't and only said what I did based on suspicion that you might be the victim of blackmail as I had seen written about previously. I never 'posed helpfulness' I simply answered what you asked. I also made a point of not revealing what you said for fear that the town would misunderstand it and make a foolish decision.

As for Denis, I'm going to be perfectly honest here. He has a problem and has had one for a long time. He takes any opportunity to oppose me, whether I agree or disagree with him in any situation, whether I talk a lot or a little, whatever I do is wrong in his eyes. I could document this if I wanted to waste the time. He always finds a way to turn whatever into a reason to accuse me, but he never has the balls to do it first, he waits for someone else then supports them using cautious language designed to avoid blame when it goes wrong. To be blunt, it's so transparent that four different people have written me about it over the course of these last few games of life and asked what he has against me. I have an idea, but honestly, it isn't worth the bother.

I'm being used by the scum.

Quite possibly. I'd prefer to believe this than the alternative.

Oh, wait, now you're accusing me of being scum again after I vote for you...

Nope, just commenting on how scummy a move it is. Believe me, I don't think that everyone who makes a scummy move is actually scum, some are just easily led by the wrong people. There appears to be a lot of that going on right now.

[JimBee]

I continue to have no clue what to do. However, I am not stupid as you seem to imply, Stanislav. I don't like your attitude towards the town, saying things like "The town is doing a terrible job. You all suck". If you're town, then you're one of us, and personally I don't see how much help you've been so far.

Not that I can judge your alignment by your snottiness, but it would be beneficial to everyone if you quit being a hypocrite and acting like you're above everyone else.

[Shadows]

"Truth" this is coming from the guy who made his vote known before his accusee had an opportunity to defend himself.

You've never explained why you targeted the victim of the scum killer, so why does it matter if you had time to? The person who accused still thinks you're the scum killer. It's not that complicated, even if people want to make it so.

I can prove myself innocent.

NO, YOU CAN'T! No one can without cheating. I know you're relatively new to these things, but for god's sake, stop making idiotic statements as if they're fact.

Unless you know something the rest of don't, I haven't been able to find anything relating the today's death to the "madness of the fool moon".

I think Ivan said it best... "Citizens of Moonlight," Ivan addresses the crowd, "We have lost two friends last night during the drunken debauchery of Full Moon Festival. We should all feel guilty for not being the more diligent."

We had a 'full moon' because we didn't reach a conviction and had we been more diligent, it wouldn't have happened. Do you understand that now?

Again I would encourage you to talk ask Ruxana for how I can be proven innocent, this would save us a townie and also give us someone to trust, but in the end I know you'd be all too happen to get rid of a townie even if it may cost you in confirming Roncanator.

You said you could prove it, now it requires Ruxana to do so, when Ruxana has voted to convict you as the scum killer? Are you even trying to make sense now?

Woah, hold up you are still not providing any evidence about there being a vigilante. I have given several valid reasons why a Serial Killer is a distinct possibility and yet you continue to hammer on a vigilante and you're only reason is what some past movies refer to as "meta-gaming".

Not 'some' past movies. ALL. It's like doubting there's an investigator. How many of these have you played, anyway?

This point could be argued either way. Your argument is that if the vigilante was making dumb kills they must not be in contact with anyone. However my argument is that since the vigilante is making such "dumb" kills that make complete sense for a Serial Killer to perform, the vigilante must be in fact a Serial Killer. You are again denying the logic and are resorting to simply calling it sillyness.

I don't claim that they were or weren't, just that they clearly don't know who to trust because they killed the wrong people. In all likelihood, we have both a vigilante AND a serial killer. The poisoning looks like a serial killer, but the rest don't. You aren't applying logic, you aren't even understanding my points. If you'd prefer I not call it silly, I could revert to stupid, but that didn't seem as polite.

I agree the Serial killer would not contact anyone, however a serial killer hiding as a vigilante always gives the town more assurance and provides an easy excuse should the he be caught in the act. I still disagree with you that the vigilante would be killing the wrong people, unfortunately for Sarah and thankfully for Max, both did not contribute much and were more than likely not to be protected at night or watched, perfect targets for a serial killer. As to them stopping after they made there first mistake, I don't see how you can back this up in anyway given the deaths thus far.

Vigilantes often target quiet members of the town expecting them to be 'flying under the radar'. You don't know this? Hell, the town often targets quiet members for the same reason...

I wouldn't expect a Serial Killer to claim anything less, and my role-claim as the snoop in no way effects whether anyone exists or not, you still have three deaths to account for and according to your own words there is now way that one scum team could have 2 kills. You're just making potshots in the dark here without backing anything up so you can get the heat off of yourself.

The snoop. Fascinating. Ignoring that, I'll again note that you're twisting my words. I never said that the scum couldn't have two kills, I said I doubted it and would hope god wouldn't be that much of a fucktard to do it. There's a difference there. I said that first at a time when I wasn't being attacked, so I your claim that I was taking heat off myself isn't just misleading, it's a complete lie.

Actually to be perfectly correct, my accuser would be Ruxana and I never did accuse her

And she still thinks you're guilty, but I'm a much better target for the scum, as evidenced by the quick attack.

Am I supposed to understand how the scum work?

"Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle." -- Sun Tzu

The Petr issue has gone back and forth enough and I think most of the town agree with me that Petr is on our side. You keep on saying what you would do if you were scum, this is hardly logical since you wouldn't say what you would do if you were scum anyways.

Read the last comment again. If you want to defeat the scum, you have to look at every action in the game from their standpoint. If you can understand what they would be likely to do, it's easier to spot it when they do.

I give up. Do what you will. If you end up making the mistake of killing me, remember who pushed so hard for it and stop letting them pull your strings. By now, a normal town would have a much clearer picture of who has been manipulating them day by day, but that isn't the case here and I can't make you see what you don't want to.

I continue to have no clue what to do. However, I am not stupid as you seem to imply, Stanislav. I don't like your attitude towards the town, saying things like "The town is doing a terrible job. You all suck". If you're town, then you're one of us, and personally I don't see how much help you've been so far.

Not that I can judge your alignment by your snottiness, but it would be beneficial to everyone if you quit being a hypocrite and acting like you're above everyone else.

The town is doing a terrible job. You all suck. I'm doing a terrible job, too. I suck. Better? Can we agree that if it wasn't for the poisoner, whoever the hell they work for, we'd be at an exactly 100% failure rate so far?

I'm not above anyone, and I'm not acting like I am. I don't have the answers, but when we're presented with something logical and it's immediately countered with a full-on attack towards me, it's pretty obvious what's going on. To see people not realising that means this town is doomed. I can't do anything about that, and blaming my attitude is ridiculous.

[Hinckley]

Vote tally

Donil (Waterbrick Down): 2 votes (Shadows, Roncanator)

Stanislav (Shadows): 3 votes (Waterbrick Down, Zepher, Sandy)

[Pandora]

Hoorah for the death of Max! I was beginning to worry that we were going round in circles, and only depleting our own numbers.

So we didn't reach a conviction yesterday, and there was a penalty, as mentioned in commandment 5 of the 14 commandments given to us each day, and as I said earlier no-one seems to have died by an act of God, so... what was the penalty?

"People act differently when there's a full moon" - can we be sure (as I also said earlier) that the modes of killing are being used by the same perpetrators? Or that those using these modes of killing actually targeted the people they intended to. The indication that Ruxana and Donil did target their intended target would suggest the latter is less likely.

People are bandying around words like "proves" and "confirms" and "obviously"; this is foolish in my opinion. Nothing is clear, but some things become more likely. For instance, I'd be very surprised if there weren't a vigilante, I'd be less surprised if there weren't a serial killer given the very real possibility of two scum factions, but it would be idiocy to dismiss theories out of hand and claim things are "proven" especially based on the events of an "insane" night.

I fear we have lost our blocker and investigator, but I'm damn relieved someone has killed the Russian Mafia Godfather, as Raya says he'd likely be difficult to investigate.

As to Ruxana and Donil - neither has really managed to convince me that they are innocent. I worry why Ruxana should have an unblockable option added to simply being a tracker, that doesn't make all that much sense to me. I also note that the weak watcher role that Donil claims is most usually aligned with scum. I am still looking very much at these two and feel that focusing on Stanislav is perhaps a distraction. We shall see.

My decision at the moment is really between someone who is unblockable and someone who very well might be the killer. So I'm going to see how the day pans out.