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Well, ideally high-level and low-level heroes shouldn't be in the same quest, but I don't know if that's the point. :look:

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...Just food for thought. :classic:

Maybe just be creative and make enemies that are both challenging but don't have super op specials that are plainly:

Final Boss Blast: Deals 999 damage to the opponent. If the opponent dies, all other opponents gain the Doomed effect.

Maybe also make a couple of battles more 'puzzle' like. Example: The Reaper fight in quest #93, where it just needed a Phoenix Essence to die.

Edited by Cutcobra

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Well, ideally high-level and low-level heroes shouldn't be in the same quest, but I don't know if that's the point. :look:

Yeah, but didn't you know QMs just love torturing themselves?

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I'll add onto this by saying something:

High level parties are really, really hard to kill.

Okay, maybe I should elaborate on that. :tongue:

Any boss battle or major battle should have potential to be failed. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time with a roadblock that falls only when everyone's timezones coordinate properly to have the QM post the rounds to move the plot along. That's not really that fun.

Look at 147,148, for instance. I think the former has 3 Incenses and the latter has something crazy like 8.

That means that, if an enemy encounter wants to have a hope in hell of causing a quest fail, it either needs to

A) Kill the entire party in a single round, so they can't use any of their items.

B) Make something so weird happen that a quest fail occurs.

C) Kill every hero roughly 3-8 times.

"A" and "B" are also not that fun. I will confess right now that Immortalis was intended to be very firmly in the "C" camp. :tongue: I designed him specifically to get at least a couple of knockouts per round, simply because otherwise, the party is damn near invincible. It's an unfortunate result of power creep, yes, but if you want to have a relatively traditional fight, sometimes the solution has got to be bigger numbers. :shrug_oh_well:

I also made a point of having Immortalis' AoEs able to be mitigated (hint hint, target the claws at the proper place in the battle order or they will tear the battle order up... or down, in the second claw's case), have a delay (Full party Doom is actually kinda weak, especially since minstrel can sing a song and cure that instantly.), hits some people based on random chance, or hits everyone but is fairly weak.

Everything else just hits one unfortunate soul really, REALLY hard. :laugh:

Edited by Endgame

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I'll add onto this by saying something:

High level parties are really, really hard to kill.

Okay, maybe I should elaborate on that. :tongue:

Any boss battle or major battle should have potential to be failed. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time with a roadblock that falls only when everyone's timezones coordinate properly to have the QM post the rounds to move the plot along. That's not really that fun.

Look at 147,148, for instance. I think the former has 3 Incenses and the latter has something crazy like 8.

That means that, if an enemy encounter wants to have a hope in hell of causing a quest fail, it either needs to

A) Kill the entire party in a single round, so they can't use any of their items.

B) Make something so weird happen that a quest fail occurs.

C) Kill every hero roughly 3-8 times.

"A" and "B" are also not that fun. I will confess right now that Immortalis was intended to be very firmly in the "C" camp. :tongue: I designed him specifically to get at least a couple of knockouts per round, simply because otherwise, the party is damn near invincible. It's an unfortunate result of power creep, yes, but if you want to have a relatively traditional fight, sometimes the solution has got to be bigger numbers. :shrug_oh_well:

I also made a point of having Immortalis' AoEs able to be mitigated (hint hint, target the claws at the proper place in the battle order or they will tear the battle order up... or down, in the second claw's case), have a delay (Full party Doom is actually kinda weak, especially since minstrel can sing a song and cure that instantly.), hits some people based on random chance, or hits everyone but is fairly weak.

Everything else just hits one unfortunate soul really, REALLY hard. :laugh:

Well, I mean, to be fair there's been a dearth of Quests that can fail through non-battle means. There's a LOT of meat there that's just been left untouched recently. Even something like the brainwashed minions fight in 99, just with Quest failure instead of optional rep on the line, would be nice to see more often. (Not complaining about 147 here, just about Quests in general--the shared HP mechanic IS a good way of keeping the weaker enemies around for the weaker players to fight, I just don't want it to become the ONLY think like Level ??? was for a while.)

Do keep in mind, though, that planning to burn through ALL of a party's resources isn't the best plan--it irritates players when they dump hundreds or even thousands of gold worth of consumables surviving, and then get very little back in gold and consumables to restock. I actually think Zeph did a really great job of it in the Dastan fights--the loot out-to-resources in ratio was just about perfect for our party's average Level and Power. At higher levels, Artifacts and weapons tend to diminish in value, as by then you've usually narrowed your build down pretty well and are just looking to augment or improve what you already have. To get back onto the subject, I do like to encourage my players to invest some resources into the fights, but at the same time I explicitly don't want to bleed them dry; on the scale of Monty Haul to Dark Souls I'd rather err slightly towards the former, especially since if I've done my job right the players will want to move on to their next Quest, and going in dry just is not a particularly pleasant sensation for anyone involved.

I do appreciate how you've handled AoE this Quest. AoE should always be handled carefully, as it basically punishes all the players (through no fault of their own) for one character's poor luck. In my view, it's best to use it sparingly, and to make it a punishment for poor strategy more than for poor luck. If Heroica were pure RNG, it wouldn't really be fun; it's the combination of luck and strategy that pulls the game mechanics together. :classic:

Well, ideally high-level and low-level heroes shouldn't be in the same quest, but I don't know if that's the point. :look:

It's not just high-level and low-level divides, though, there's significant gaps in power curve based on classes and permanent boosts and builds as well. Additionally, as you start looking at the higher-level parties, you end up having to do at least some level-mixing, if only to avoid taking the same four Heroes through every single Quest you host; usually Level 30 Heroes can do just fine in a Level 40s-ish party, but again based on builds and boosts, the same gaps can appear. Additionally, as the overall player base gets smaller, you end up having to make mixed parties, particularly if you're paying off storylines that characters from multiple tiers have invested into. It's not a problem that's particularly easily avoided anymore, so it's definitely worth considering options.

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Quest #151:

I'm glad I got to host again, but I severely underestimated the time commitment. The quest was supposed to finish up around mid July and obviously it went on a month after that. Being in Costa Rica and coming back to move back to school really killed any desire I had to continue the quest, so I'm really sorry for the way it fell off towards the end. It was supposed to end after the last battle, but I think the way it was done could've been better.

That being said, I was happier with how the beginning went and the initial concept, which CMP helped out with a lot. Special thanks to you for letting me bounce ideas off you and using your story and characters. I'm glad I could integrate my story into yours a little bit, and now the story is headed in a new direction. I know that the Zylstra story is done, but the characters, particularly the Cardinal, have new purposes. The investigation part was probably the highlight of the quest for me. I felt that I gave a good amount of freedom to the players without leaving it too vague, even if the end result was railroaded. The second half of the quest really just consisted of the pieces falling into place and I'm not happy with the way it turned out.

I'm also really glad I got to introduce the imps outside of Hybros' narrative. The references to him by myself and the players (i.e. Sandy/Ellaria) were inevitable but I tried to avoid them as much as possible and step into a new narrative. There was a point where a lot of background could have been revealed, but I didn't want to force it on the players. Besides, it would've been clunky to have a history lesson from Tyrfrix or something. So I offered the choice to find out more about the imps, but in the end the players chose not to pursue that. I think I could've offered more incentive or at least a clearer reason for that bit.

I liked introducing Tyrfrix and Queen Nahzka. The latter is definitely a character I'd like to flesh out in the future if I host again. I was little unsure of how to develop Sigil as he was a pretty generic character. I gave him a bit more purpose as a diplomatic leader and powerful spellcaster, but in the end I'm almost happy he was killed off. That was a result of him being KO'd at the end of the battle, by the way. Special thanks to Sandy for the imp character designs and pictures!

I'm curious about people's opinions on the imps so far - is their storyline intriguing or have I made it too generic? I'm not sure this quest fully represented what I wanted to communicate about them for the reasons already stated.

Battles were hard to balance due to the level differences, but I thought I did alright with those. I didn't realize elemental attacks ignored Sentinel until Flipz explained it to me, hence the Cardinal's special was a bit OP.

I thought the loot was fair for the length of the quest.

I'll do player feedback later. I'm interested to hear what the players/others thought about the quest. :classic:

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I'm very happy to have participated in another of your quests and coming back to Zylstra (albeit not as Pretzel) was fabulous. I think Petaldan is used to having people like him, so when few people seemed to pay a whole lot of attention to him, he just sort of faded out. I enjoyed the quest as being a short, sweet one, though I wish we had explored more about the imps. Great to see the Cardinal again and now both Pretzel and Petaldan can share a bitterness against her schemes.

Thanks, JimBee (is that how we're spelling it now? :tongue: )

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My thoughts on Quest #151:

First off, I would like to thank you for accepting me on that quest and I'm sorry that playing Goliath just didn't work out. I feel guilty for leaving after the quest. Overall, given the circumstances, I thought it was a fairly good quest despite that I feel like the end of it felt rushed. But it definitely sets up a great cliffhanger with the Cardinal and what will come of her next.

As far as NPC's go, I thought they were great! Not only did they look awesome and pretty menacing, they felt organic and had personality. However, when we first met Queen Nahzka, it felt like she gave us a small history lesson about her which felt a bit unnatural in an introductory but it's not that big of a deal. The interactions between the NPC's and the heroes I think gave the whole situation life, in the sense that Moke acknowledged Ezeran's symbiont and was terrified of it for example. The transitioning was also good between entering/leaving areas which also adds to the immersion.

About the Imps, I think you are on the right track but what you think is what ultimately matters. When I think of Imps, I think sneaky, evil, and pesky but they didn't appear to be so in the quest. I honestly can't say they were generic at all. I would like to see what happens to the inhabitants of Zylstra in a sequel or something.

The battles were well balanced despite the level differences, no complaints at all.

Although I opted to not take any loot, I agree that they were fair.

As far as the other heroes go, here are my thoughts:

Kid Reddson - I really liked him on this quest, to say the least. I think dum is going in the right direction with him. Kid was overall a funny character with a great personality. Keep up the good work!

Ezeran Yavarr - Despite that we butt heads for a while, I still find him to be interesting as a character. MysticModulus does present some great roleplay factors to Ezeran, primarily the symbiont of his chest.

Hunkan Silvertoss - He seemed rather quiet during the quest but when he talked, he seemed quite intelligent and overall a good person. His actions in italics always seemed to be great roleplay actions and definitely complimented him as a character.

Paladin Petaldin Parfenius - Overall, I felt like he was a wildchild and at times, it confused me. Sometimes he acted like a young child but other times he acted like an intelligible adult. I liked his interactions with Goliath when he was standing up for himself, that felt believable for a child in this setting because he wants to be brave and doesn't really comprehend the consequences.

Ellaria Arbour - She seems like a very gentle person and cares for the welfare of others, pretty generic hero stuff. However, she was definitely a great leader for the party and had plenty of great combat strategies when it came to fighting the Direwolves, the Cardinal, and her goons. Her encouragement towards other heroes was fantastic and she was definitely a great combatant.

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Some thoughts on #151.

First, thanks for being a part of this quest! The investigation-part was a great roleplaying-challenge and I tried to make Ezeran believeable in that regard. It's a great move to get the party to work together outside of battle as well. I must admit I awaited som kind of twist to the story almost all the way to the final battle. But that must be me watching to many episodes of cheesy televised crime shows. :wink: I like the concept of the imps, Ezeran can relate to the them but even so I didn't feel an urge to delve deeper regarding the lore of them. Sigil came across as rather passive (which often is natural thing with in party NPC's) which sadly didn't leave that much of an impression.

I believe that this quest suffered from serious lagging of tempo and inactivity at times. This sets off a spiral of shorter and shorter interactions which made the last half of the quest really being a waiting game. I do believe this is a responsibility that everyone share equally to take care to keep things going. #149 is a good example of how good it can be when everyone does.

Regarding the other players:

Ellaria - What can I say? That lady has some real grace! Great roleplaying of Sandy to the slighets detail. She really comes across as a chaotic good character with real emphaty!

Goliath - The bickering between Ezeran and Goliath was really enjoyable and that was some good roleplaying on your part. The roleplaying kind of ebbs out when he becomes to polite and socially adept. With that being said I do respect your choice of letting him go since it makes for a lot of work to make it work in the end.

Hunkan - Ezeran has a quiet respect for Hunkan which I do hope shows. I feel he became somewhat passive at times but subtle things (like how he reacted to Ezerans song) make him come alive.

Petaldan - Our own boy wonder strikes again! Petaldan is always so much fun to be around because he is always great to bounce things off. You play him very well!

Kid - Great as usual, when he acts he has agreat presence, but also a bit underplayed this quest. :wink:

Finally: thanks a lot for having us!

Edited by MysticModulus

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Don't really what to say much on 147... Rather just let the work speak for itself, I guess. I'd just like to extend another huge thank you to the Heroica community for four years of fun.

I'll answer any questions y'all might have, but otherwise, I guess this is Endgame signing off. :classic:

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Sorry, Endgame, I really wanted to say you ended on a high note, but I just can't, and while 147 wasn't your greatest work, that's not the whole story. :sceptic:

Frankly, I just didn't enjoy myself. The best parts of the Quest (for me) were when I was separated from the rest of the party in PMs; almost anyone else had a decent chemistry, including between you and them, but I never really gelled with anyone outside of the PMs. (Yes, there's a big giant elephant in the room here. No, I'm not going to address it here, Endgame and I mostly talked it out via PM and I don't feel like getting into it again.) Basically, the same thing happened here that happened on 53 and 139; I spent most of the time opposed to the rest of the party, and it wore me out; unlike 53, however, I'm no longer in this sort of place where I can just bounce back from it and leap back into action, I just burned out, and it made things worse. Not sure if it's a flaw in the character or a flaw in me as a player or both, but I'm getting really tired of having to fight with my fellow party members tooth and nail all the time; I've really got nothing left for Arthur, especially now that I've cut him loose from Miirym (who was also extremely difficult to write for).

But that's not your fault--or at least, not your fault past a certain point. Things that were your fault, however: bad loot, bad recruitment, and bad villains. I realize you don't want to go too monty haul with the lower-level characters hanging about, but good grief the loot from the point Vindsval and I joined was painful; aside from the Dragon artifacts that basically served as a secondary Quest reward, there were three swords, three arc meads (in the next-to-last battle no less), two revival incenses, a helmet, a scroll, a robe, and a very few basic Potions and Tonics. Over four months. No other buffs, no gems, no strong recovery items (Ether Core/Health Core/Emergency Essence, etc.), and not a lick of gold, nor faction rep. That's...not a fair amount of loot for a party of seven over four months, especially one where over half the party members are above Level 30. Even factoring in the per-person Quest reward and the Dragon artifacts, it's not much once you spread it out among the entire party...and the loot prior to us coming in was actually worse. Even that would have been okay if there had been significant level advancement, but I think I gained a grand total of one level...over four months. Like I said, painful.

Bad recruitment...it's been discussed before, but grabbing me in out of the blue felt a little uncomfortable; even though we'd settled beforehand that you wanted me on 147, a week of sign-ups would have felt more natural, and allowed the other 147-ers time to chat for a bit and buy supplies and such. Actually, you might have been better off making the Judgement escort part at the beginning of the Quest its own Quest (Judgement Day: Part I), and the "fight the storm" two-thirds its own Quest with its own sign-ups (Judgement Day: Part II); it would have flowed better and been more fair for everyone, though obviously the first part would have needed more content to be a fair standalone Quest. Also, in fairness, you grabbed me pretty much right after 139 ended, and I needed a lot more downtime than I got before I was ready for another slow, heavy Quest like this one.

Bad villains. I have to count ex-villain Masson in this as well, since his presence was pitifully small here--I get what you were going for with his being utterly maimed emotionally to match being maimed physically by Boomingham and seeing the destruction of the Syndicate, but Mopey!Masson is just not a compelling character, at least not compared to how he was before. (The rest of the Syndicate, plus Gabriel, were just fine, and I'll be more than happy to continue your work with them if I ever get around to hosting that Diana/Syndicate Quest I have planned in the distant future. :wink: ) The lesser angels were mostly all right, aside from one major flaw: none of them behaved even remotely reasonably. This was a universal problem with 147's villains; weak motivations, and absolutely ludicrous leaps and gaps of logic in order for them to behave the way they did. I tried to take them seriously, I really did, but it got increasingly difficult as time went on not to just say "morons!" and go full murderhobo because they're obviously video game mooks and not real people. I know you can write strong, real characters (see: non-Mopey!Masson, Octavyn, Augustus, Gabriel), so to say I was disappointed by these fancy cardboard shells is an understatement. :sceptic:

While we're on the subject of bad villains that make no sense, let's talk about Immortalis. That Dragon made

. On the one hand, he was played as being very wise and very reasonable, and he worked very well on that level; his PM interactions with Miirym are, to my mind, the best part of 147. On the other hand, however, he had what was quite possibly THE STUPIDEST villain plan I've ever seen, and I'm including The Regret. Seriously? He's THAT old, and THAT wise, but he's not even the slightest bit genre-savvy? To be honest, I think you really pushed too hard with him; you tried to portray him as tragic and/or sympathetic, and I took every shot I got to try and boost that portrayal on my end, but in the end all it did was to put him up against Quest 70 Masson...who was a better villain with a better arc in literally every single way. >_< I wanted him to be so much more, but in the end he was just yet another AI-stupid video game boss. Vorpalis and Lethauros weren't your best villains, but they were pretty high up there; even with their faults, they were quite enjoyable to watch, and they seemed reasonably well-planned and realistic, and they had plenty of character depth. With Immortalis...it looked like there might have been something there, but then his actions completely undercut it. I voted to let Charon die because he was legitimately threatening, and letting him go after the fight we had just didn't make sense; I didn't oppose the party in wanting to kill Immortalis because I just couldn't bring myself to care. His death had no emotional impact, because there was nothing there to be sad over, just a bunch of recycled scraps left over from two far superior Endgame arc villains. I really didn't want to have to tear him apart here (hell, I'm sure you saw me grasping at straws to find an interesting variant or twist he might have been pulling to make him more compelling, only to be shot down), but in the end he had all the depth and durability of a sheet of wet tissue paper. :sceptic: (You'll notice I'm not calling him Ikarus--I saw that 'reveal', but frankly he didn't earn the sympathetic name change, not like Masson did.)

Speaking of connections that weren't earned...Miirym. To be sure, I was thrilled when you suggested that my little homages to Vorpalis (because of their shared element) should play out as her being Vorpalis' daughter rather than his distant descendant as originally planned, but I think it backfired. It firmly locked me into this plotline, but in a way that forced me to be at odds with the party, and also felt...well, just about as unearned as my place in 147 in the first place. Looking back, I don't think Vorpalis should have stated the truth outright, and neither should have Immortalis; while Miirym's arc was okay, it sent her hard down the 53!Arthur path, and the end result was me with nowhere to go besides retreading Arthur ground I'm not interested in repeating. I really think the whole thing could have been handled a lot better on both of our parts; maybe then I wouldn't have felt the need to send her away until I know what to do with her. :def_shrug:

Anyway, good things...the Syndicate was great, it felt earned and everyone was well-written; the Proggs, while a little ham-fisted, were another great inclusion; and the angels, when they weren't suffering from the trickle-down stupidity from the top, were quite compelling as unfortunate, dutiful lieutenants. As previously mentioned, the 1-on-1 time was really stellar, and I wish more QMs made time for that kind of in-depth interaction; it reminded me a lot of some of Zepher's 1-on-1 style, actually. Mechanically...well, I guess the Dragon Artifacts were all right, and the shared-HP mechanic was decent even if the enemy they were attached to was flawed. I just wish I could have had more of the good parts, instead of everything being dragged down by all the bad. :sceptic:

Party member analysis/critiques...I think I'm going to skip these. Some of them I don't want to touch for obvious reasons, while for others I don't want to discourage you from your great characters by bringing up good aspects that just happened to clash with Arthur and Miirym. I'd like to Quest with--or especially host--most of you again, preferably sooner rather than later. Stick around, keep doing what you're doing, and I hope to see you again soon. :wink:

...oh, questions! What else was waiting for us elsewhere in Eschaton? What were the mystery items in the NPCs' inventories? Why did you give us Anemos? And what else was waiting behind alternate choices?

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I'm afraid that my thoughts on the quest are going to center more around myself, than the quest itself / your hosting, Endgame. I can't quite recall, but I feel like my last few end-of-quest-thoughts posts have shared the same apologetic tone: I'm just not as into it as I once was. That definitely came through on 147, and it wasn't fair to you or to the other party members, all of whom were making all the effort in the world to engage each other. I genuinely appreciate the instances where folks reached out to me directly, and most of you did so on at least one occasion, often when I had hit a lull or seemed to have gone silent. Big conversation / development happens, everyone gets into it, and I'm on the sidelines, then someone prods me for Thormanil's thoughts, or tries to include me. I really, really appreciate that. I do. The hooks were offered to me, and I just couldn't bring myself to take advantage of them beyond an acknowledgement.

I mentioned it very early on, but my living situation changed last-minute for the summer. I went from having the housing I've had the past 2 summers, to being in a dry cabin on the edge of town, with no internet and spotty cell coverage at best. That, compounded with a faltering desire to RP vs just play out the battles, left me as a really crummy teammate to all of you. I was late to post, I barely contributed, etc etc. Sob story etc. So I want to just apologize to everyone for that. I thought I could tough it out, but by the end I was posting out of obligation rather than enthusiasm.

Before signing up, I asked Endgame which quests I should brush up on to come into this with some prior knowledge. I skimmed them in my free time, but it would seem that not enough stuck to really tie me to the arc. Ultimately, I felt like I was just here to slay a big, troublemaking dragon, and that was at odds with everyone who wanted to really get invested in the story and do this or do that. My motivation was to reach the dragon, and put the dragon down. That opened up one avenue of characterization during the mob of proggs scene, but beyond that, it wasn't a very interesting path to take and didn't give anyone much to work with. I tried to get involved on the dragons-side of things as well, but quickly realized that this was to be a period of characterization between Miirym/Immortalis, and Arx was merely my window into that conversation. I stayed out of it because I didn't want to step on toes anymore than I already had by inviting myself along, and the content of their conversation largely flew over my head. For me, the quest was more of just a long, drawn out realization that I probably didn't belong there.

I don't want to have any of that detract from the actual quest, though. That all reflects on me, not any of you. I've got my own gripes for you lot! :grin: I don't, actually, not much, at least. The pace seemed to slow to a crawl near the end, but I can hardly complain about that; several battle turns and other scenes were stalled by a day or more by my own inaction. I think Flipz covered a lot of my feelings towards the mechanics/battles/loot, so I'll just piggyback on what he said in those regards (I'll also echo that writing for the dragon companion is turning out to be difficult!).

Questing with (most) of you was a generally pleasant experience, and I'd hope that I haven't soured too many of you to my company that you'd want to avoid me in the future, once I'm back in the middle of civilization and have both time and internet. You've all got very distinct flavors for your characters, and though there were clashes, they were enjoyable to go back and read through when I was able to catch up. There was one exception, and it was very reminiscent of Wren-era Arthur. I cringed at every long winded monologue, and very much wanted to ignore the character rather than make any effort to engage them / try to change their mind.

One gripe that I have to toss out, was during our Charon fight. I was admittedly late on posting an action, and it had been suggested that I use one of my more potent consumables, the 99 damage bomb. I had PM'ed Endgame about an alternate action, explaining that I didn't want to go and take a creative action (chasing Charon through his own portal, to create a duplicate of Thormanil) if it ran a significant risk of failing or worse, harming the party, because I hadn't been a reliable teammate up to that point and knew the value of using the bomb in this case. The round got rolled without me having submitted the action to use the bomb, and I was left feeling a bit salty about that. Granted, there probably won't be another time where that bomb would have done me much more good than it did there, and it would only grow weaker as enemies scaled up, but I felt it set a bad precedent of using someone else's consumables without their consent. That was compounded by the fact that I had contacted EG reasonably prior to the round being rolled, although perhaps I should have noted in thread that I had done so and had reason for being (further) late to post.

The tone of all of this comes off far more negative than I want it to, but I think that is chalked up more to my own mistakes/problems than yours, EG. Truthfully, I wasn't invested enough in the quest to comment on the more delicate details like characters, motivation, etc. I got to slay a dragon and take home some loot, so I'm happy :tongue: Thanks for including me in your finale, I enjoyed it as much as I was able!

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I would have to disagree with you on a lot of those points, Flipz.

Overall I really enjoyed 147, and after the Vorpalis quest I think this was the strongest of Endgame quests that I've followed. I thought the existing story arcs with the Syndicate, Proggs, and a few other characters fit in nicely, even if I wasn't familiar with them all. While the Severa bit was a little random, the former two were good moral dilemmas that simultaneously involved PCs while expanding on the villains, their plot, and the themes of the quest. Making the heroes choose between glory (saving the homes of the Proggs/saving the Syndicate) and heroism (not risking Proggs' lives/focusing on saving the city rather than one building) displayed the motives of Immortalis and Charon and spoke to themes of "fate vs. choice" and the idea of "who gets to decide what's best for anyone?".

I guess I kind of agree with what you said, Flipz, about the angels being somewhat flat, but I saw more as the dutiful followers doing their jobs, and doing what they believed in. Charon was the coolest character by far, and the scariest. Immortalis was threatening for sure. I suppose I was also expecting some sort of big reveal, and the flashbacks were okay, but didn't really change anything about the situation. Which is okay by me, because a story doesn't need to have big plot twists to be good. At the end of the day it was a very straightforward "slay the dragon and save the day" kind of story, with common-yet-complex themes and good roleplaying throughout. I can't really complain about that at all.

The loot, I will admit, felt a little lacking, but the quest reward and armor set were really good. I think we're getting used to ridiculously good loot in higher-leveled quests (see 148), but some more common items and gold drops would've been nice. Also, three longswords? You definitely could've diverged a little from the most common weapon type in the game. :tongue: Strange that Vind got to keep all of them. :poke:

It was also the best quest for Jinnipher's roleplaying, IMO. I thought she had at least some good interaction with every PC, and I enjoyed the party we had.

I wish Siercon and Swils were a little more active throughout, but Thormanil is one of a few heroes who Jinnipher seems to like because of his straightforwardness and dedication to the mission. Siercon is an odd and untrustworthy character to her, but from a player's perspective I can appreciate what you've done with him and his motives. I really hope he gets to Winged Warrior some day.

Vindsval was an interesting foil for Jinnipher due to the contrast in their faiths and ways of practicing them. Vind sees his faith as a very real and concrete thing, and even his deity is embodied in a physical (ghostly?) form. He'll follow the "Path" to its end without much question, which lends itself to a very interesting lawful good-type character, even if it jeopordizes the mission in Jinnipher's eyes. Her faith, on the other hand, honors the elven gods but only to a point where she believes they control the afterlife and not much else. I thought this contrast played well with the whole destiny/fate vs. freedom of choice theme prevalent throughout the quest.

Karie played a really good leader role which was good for the party and good for her own character. She's come a long way from the street urchin-type character she came in as, and I think this is the best RPing I've seen from you with her, Kinto. The interactions with Masson felt a little stale, as if she was ignoring him the whole time - I didn't really get that but maybe it was intentional.

Lind has also developed a lot even since his last quest. More mature, less preachy about his religion/background, and overall a more tolerable person for Jinnipher, at least. I think the progression was natural and you should keep it up with him. :thumbup: I particularly liked how the conflict with Arthur was wrapped up.

I thought Miirym had the best RP since her creation yet. The whole family heritage thing was a teensy bit forced, but I admit the reveal was good and it made sense. I liked her and Jinnipher's interactions. They're both prideful and immature in a sense. Arthur seemed to take a back seat to it all, which was interesting because traditionally the dragons are seen to reinforce the RP arc of the main character, not the other way around. I think some of the difficulty you've had with him in the past two quests is partly due to not reaching out to other characters - it seems that you have a set story arc in mind that can maybe tie neatly into the quest itself, but doesn't really concern the other PCs. The highlights with him have been the conflict with Hoke in 139 and the conflict with Lind on this quest. Maybe try reaching out with him a bit more instead of relying on the QM or other players to initiate a dialogue about himself?

To conclude, thanks for QMing these past few years, Endgame. You've really left your mark on this game. It sounds like you're leaving for good which is sad, but I hope you check in every now and then!

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Before signing up, I asked Endgame which quests I should brush up on to come into this with some prior knowledge. I skimmed them in my free time, but it would seem that not enough stuck to really tie me to the arc. Ultimately, I felt like I was just here to slay a big, troublemaking dragon, and that was at odds with everyone who wanted to really get invested in the story and do this or do that. My motivation was to reach the dragon, and put the dragon down. That opened up one avenue of characterization during the mob of proggs scene, but beyond that, it wasn't a very interesting path to take and didn't give anyone much to work with. I tried to get involved on the dragons-side of things as well, but quickly realized that this was to be a period of characterization between Miirym/Immortalis, and Arx was merely my window into that conversation. I stayed out of it because I didn't want to step on toes anymore than I already had by inviting myself along, and the content of their conversation largely flew over my head. For me, the quest was more of just a long, drawn out realization that I probably didn't belong there.

I don't want to have any of that detract from the actual quest, though. That all reflects on me, not any of you. I've got my own gripes for you lot! :grin: I don't, actually, not much, at least. The pace seemed to slow to a crawl near the end, but I can hardly complain about that; several battle turns and other scenes were stalled by a day or more by my own inaction. I think Flipz covered a lot of my feelings towards the mechanics/battles/loot, so I'll just piggyback on what he said in those regards (I'll also echo that writing for the dragon companion is turning out to be difficult!).

Questing with (most) of you was a generally pleasant experience, and I'd hope that I haven't soured too many of you to my company that you'd want to avoid me in the future, once I'm back in the middle of civilization and have both time and internet. You've all got very distinct flavors for your characters, and though there were clashes, they were enjoyable to go back and read through when I was able to catch up. There was one exception, and it was very reminiscent of Wren-era Arthur. I cringed at every long winded monologue, and very much wanted to ignore the character rather than make any effort to engage them / try to change their mind.

For my money, I really enjoyed the interactions between Miirym and Arx. His mere presence significantly affected Miirym's behavior, and I think she would not have done nearly as much if she hadn't been thinking about how she'd look in Arx's eyes. In the private conversation as well, Arx brought out a very different side of Miirym, one that Arthur probably never could have. He didn't say all that much, but he made a big impact--and when he did speak, he made an even bigger one.

Yeah, the whole argument towards the end of the battle wasn't very fun. At first I was just setting up what could have been a really neat moment to play off the whole choice vs. destiny theme and flip the destiny angle back on Immortalis, but it quickly devolved into a 53 rehash. The funny thing is, Miirym and Jinnipher still had the same goal: a dead Immortalis; the only difference is that they both wanted the kill, and Jinnipher didn't have Arthur as a morality chain to keep her from doing it. I think the moment when Miirym caught flak and responded by arguing back, though, was the moment when I had to get rid of her; if a character just will not work with the rest of the party, it's a sign they might need some time out of the spotlight, and maybe ought to be retired at least temporarily, and that's exactly what happened with Miirym.

I thought Miirym had the best RP since her creation yet. The whole family heritage thing was a teensy bit forced, but I admit the reveal was good and it made sense. I liked her and Jinnipher's interactions. They're both prideful and immature in a sense. Arthur seemed to take a back seat to it all, which was interesting because traditionally the dragons are seen to reinforce the RP arc of the main character, not the other way around. I think some of the difficulty you've had with him in the past two quests is partly due to not reaching out to other characters - it seems that you have a set story arc in mind that can maybe tie neatly into the quest itself, but doesn't really concern the other PCs. The highlights with him have been the conflict with Hoke in 139 and the conflict with Lind on this quest. Maybe try reaching out with him a bit more instead of relying on the QM or other players to initiate a dialogue about himself?

I think the family heritage thing just needed more time to marinate, honestly. It was rushed in 139 and again on 147, because we needed it established "now" before 147 was over. I think if 139 and the reveal within it had come sooner (and been more planned ahead of time) and/or 147 had been delayed until April when I was officially available for it, the pacing for it might have worked a lot better.

I am glad that you picked up the similarities between Jinnipher and Miirym; I was deliberately trying to play them up, if only to give them some similarity they could interact over, and I do think they both brought out the flaws in each other. I'm also glad to hear that Arthur successfully faded as I intended; prior to the final battle, that was my total plan for the rest of the time I'd spend on the duo; make Miirym be the main hero, with Arthur as a sort of quiet sidekick. As far as not reaching out enough...maybe? I think at least part of that comes from a place of feeling self-conscious and not wanting to hijack the Quest spotlight away from everyone else, but looking back I'm not so sure that particular strategy is even working. :blush: On a broader scale, though, I'm not sure I'm looking to develop Arthur so much as to have him there as a tool for QMs and other players to develop their own characters; as someone here once said, "if you want to write a story, host a Quest; if you want to experience a story, play in one." I'm paraphrasing, but still, a lot of my past roleplaying strikes me as...well, selfish, really, and I really want to avoid that as much as I can. :def_shrug:

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Quest 147 and 'Siercon History'

*****Siercon:******

Years back, Heroica was my first experience ever playing a rpg (in the realm of story telling/dnd, not video games etc.). I did what many rpg noobs do, and essentially make my character 'my character'. In this case, Siercon is a character in a fantasy book Steph and I are writing who was essentially Child prodigy gone evil, and at some point redeemed, and starting from ground zero trying to do things the right way, even though he's more effective doing them the wrong way. Basic character traits, manipulative, sly, oddly honest, trickster, quiet/watching, adoptive of others, outside of the box. And then add all the dichotomies of being in both a good and evil position... Kind vs Cruel etc. Long and short, I had no clue what I was doing, and never realized how hard it would be to play a character who is a combination of stuff that takes thousands of pages to cohesively meld together, as well as doing it all through his person. As he can often be a quiet introvert who would rather watch and wait in most scenarios participating can be hard. That combined with all the back story which many new players want to make more important than the current story, left me playing this quiet aloof uninvolved, character. Oh and then I made things worse by making him a shadow wraith with no facial features. (Stupid move) So "Siercon smiled at __ in gratefulness" just seems odd. lol. Anyways, I often find myself reading the posts of others and thinking "how would Siercon respond?".... well he wouldn't, he doesn't actively care, other peoples pain/circumstance is covered over by hyper logic, and interaction while on a mission is something he usually avoids. On top of this he's essentially a projection/shadow from another planet, so he doesn't care about the world either, or death for that matter. (This is changing (see below))

For all of this I apologize to everyone. Main apology, is not breaking enough of the pre-character conceptions to make it fit more with the game. Here are things I'm in efforts to change contrary to actual character build.

Edited Character traits

-Insert facial expressions. (If i have to express how Siercon is feeling one more time, using hand gestures or shoulder shrugs... :wacko: )

-Treat 'mission mode' as 'hang out mode.' (Siercon verbally shuts down on missions unless he goes into commander mode. BS for rpg. I'm inserting communication more fit for 'around a campfire' for more activity.

-Siercon is now autonomous and views his life as not controlled by the originals elsewhere in some deep sleep, but as his own. And will fight to keep it. (Thus the life threads, unlike most heroes, his connection is literally lost if life threads are cut by KO.) Thus care for this world.

Any ways, since starting Heroica I've played a bunch of DnD and been DM often, And how much nicer it would have been to start with a completely off the wall character like an "octopus archer with a superiority complex." But we live and we learn. But at the same time, I owe it to Heroica for starting me down this path. So thank you all.

******Quest 147******

Loot

I had lots of fun. A long time prior to starting this quest I had only perused one of endgames quest and had come to the conclusion that his monsters were ridiculously hard and loot was minimal. I respected that, as often in dnd I give out too many goodies cause people have 'more fun' (but that then end up creating some broken DnD world which needed a more level headed, non player pleasing master...) So this is what I expected jumping in. So I didn't find the loot lacking. And I expected the crazy bad guys. I expected to die many times... haha

Bad guys

I had fun with them all. It was slightly bothersome to try arguing with all 'highly intelegent' bad guys who were also benevolent, but unwilling to change their beliefs. But this I just accepted as a story element and decided they were brainwashed and had to die. IRL I feel like a compromise could have been made between smart people, but treated it as a story element, and just resorted to wanting to kill'm for their bad logic and thus thier actions. So I'd slightly agree with Flipz on the opinion of the bad guys, but it didn't bother me as much cause I saw it as "It's needed for the story" and just accepted what leaps i thought needed to be made.

I'm sad Charon is dead, he was my favorite enemy in the sense that he could be 'cool headed' but also snap. Also... I wanted to take his staff... but I'll be happy with his wings dilapidated as they are.

Middle quest argument about love and post crossing

I hope every one is good now. I only have two thoughts on the subjects. One, it can be easy to wonder if the characters portrayed in the game have any underlying truth to the player behind them. I think that might have been a subtle reason certain people took offense at stuff said, and things said about them. Consider if this is the case and if there is a IRL concern, maybe it can be be brought up an a PM like "Hey buddy, do you really believe this?" otherwise, it's all in character. Like, I'm gonna assume JimBee is not a bitter elvish punk jerk. :laugh: (lets hang out sometime) Maybe I'm way off base, but I hope that stuff wasn't taken personal, and if it was, that honest conclusions were made. None of us want to find out that the next hitler was playing heroica and we missed some genuine character flaws covering them up as "In character"... but at the same time the other extreme is important to avoid and far more likely.

Cross posting.

We say stupid stuff in life all the time. Most of the funny stories revolve around it, as well as some of the most painful ones. Since this is a game, we can make all the "Stupid things said" forcibly be in the funny category. Just hold stuff loosely. I made this error when i thought Lind was bribing for the loot. And where this isn't the same thing as cross posting, i think a lot of headache can be avoided by just being the first one to let go, realize it really doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things, and have fun. :)

Ultimately, I consider you all my friends IRL and screw your characters and along with mine ;) They are tools in a community, and pieces of a game board. And through watching all of you play, I've learned to be a better player, I just personally need to start giving back more to my roots, you guys. Thanks.

Story

I enjoyed the the direct path that it took, while breaking off for individual adventures. Definitely my favorite type of set up as 'open world' is rather impossible to do in lego and with heroica. I learned a bunch and had lots of fun.

Karie:

Great job being party leader. We had at times a tumultuous party, and you played a great leader while being a self sacrificing minstrel and good loot distribution. We didn't have any major tests of you being the final say on major plot decisions, but I felt that your play would have done them well regardless of whom was on the losing side.

Thromanil(Arx):

It's gotta be hard writing for two, but i almost feel like Siercon knows Arx more. not saying this as a critique, more just that both you and arx go hand in hand really well.

Lind:

I feel like you have the one of the fastest post triggers. Sometimes a double edged sword, but for the most part, it's something I need to learn from people like you and Flipz. Lind gives me this vibe of saying what he thinks without thinking too long about it. Obviously this can get harped on, but from a rpg stand point, what is the game without people talking... otherwise you're left with a room full of siercons... :wacko:

Jinnipher:

Your a jerk, Siercon is really looking forward to hacking the puzzle of being your friend. Siercon finds Jinnipher confusing, and yet very intriguing.. he still isn't sure what will make them friends. Being intelligent, or punching her in the face. Personally I like that oddity, and hope that minor cracks in her shell are found ever so slowly. Otherwise if she turns out to be completely static, Siercon might just get a headache from being in the same room.

Vindsval:

I like how much Vindsval says without seeming chatty. Your play style in using his narration or long sentences to talk but also describe things, is something I'm going to try to mimic. Cause currently whenever I actually type something a paragraph long, its just stuff in siercon's head... which doesn't give any other players something to work with.

Arthur(Miirym):

You can truly be one of my favorite players in both character actions, knowledge, as well as skills in typing out this game on the forums. I want that to sit there for a second, cause I mean it. I'm learning a ton from watching you DM and play. (Insert genuine pause) My only qualm, is that you seem tired, depressed, and stressed. Obviously this is not a "Deal with your problems" observation but more of a personal quandary. Simply and literally because I personally (And I'm sure others do as well) want to be a part of a game and create a place that you can come to and feel safe, and just forget about the bleh of life. I know this can be hard with a long time character, which is why siercons gonna look forward to a fresh start with the green squid. :)

And that literally goes for all of you. I never want to add to your life stress, and as a long-time quiet lame character Siercon is trying to change to be more story conducive. Ultimately help me in keeping this fun for my part. Not 'fun' in the sense of "it has to be exciting" but mainly, in that stress dissolves in Heroica and were all taking a break from our lives to relax. :sweet:

Endgame, thanks for leading the charge and working so hard on the quest. Whether it was your best or not I had fun and learned a lot!

All of you it truly was tons of fun to play with you and hope to do so again soon!

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I'd like to start right off the bat with an apology for that doomsday bomb used. Really no excuse for that besides me not being attentive and checking/following up on my PMs.

For the sake of brevity, if I do not respond to a criticism, assume I agree with you. :laugh:

I can see where you're coming from with the Eschaton Squad acting unreasonably, but I think it is important to note that their version of benevolent is far, far different from a normal person's. I think Charon put it best in 147 when its a number game for them. If their peaceful options run out, and they think the extreme options will save more lives in the end, they'll do it. Were they right? Not really. They had a completely different view of the world. I cannot remember if this came into the main thread, but Immortalis told Jinnipher he sees all lives as equal. A nice sentiment, but treating all lives as just a homogenized statistic warps you. It's also why the lower angels were so accepting of their brethren getting slain for the most part; the Eschatonese only grieve when someone very close to them is lost. (see Charon and Immortalis.) Immortalis and the crew didn't have particularly human motivations because they didn't have particularly human views. despite this, I can admit that they might not have been the most fun to watch at times - they all live for their duty and nothing else, which can be tiresome - and that Immortalis was way stronger in PMs than in main thread. I delibrately had him have two demeanors for Pm/thread, and I can agree the PM one was waaaaaay better.

Also, here's a random tidbit, but you can completely disregard this because of Death of the Author and whatnot: I consider Charon to be 147's main antagonist, not Immortalis.

Also, I am starting to suspect people may look at Q70 through rose tinted glasses... I re-read it, and it was all pretty zany. Masson's plan was kinda harebrained there too. :tongue Also, no Endgame villain will have a plan as dumb as "I need to eat this magic fire, but to do that I need to not exist, so I will groom a bunch of heroes with a bunch of boss fights for no good reason to send them back in time to kill me so I don't exist so I can eat the magic fire so I can die for real." :blush: Despite the grace (or lack thereof) of The Regret's ending, I do like how he has kind of haunted the game since then.

Also, on mopey Masson: I don't think anyone could go through what Masson has (especially because I have foreshadowed that, not unlike Gabriel, he inherited some of his father's mental illnesses) and not be a bit mopey. I purposely made his role smaller though, because I only wanted to do brotherly relationships moreso than spousal ones with him. I think his line near the end where he tells Gabriel that he wants to be more like him was one of his most significant.

Q&A!

-Awaiting in Eschaton? Nothing, really! I may have whipped up some improv surprise if you went to the Memorial on the second visit, but otherwise, I can't think of any missed... OH, on the first visit, you could've visitted the Silent Hall and chatted with Charon by writing (because there is no sound in the silent hall, duh. :tongue: )

-I gave you guys Anemos because I felt like it. :laugh:

-Masson's mystery items was his battle of anti-anxiety/anti-depressants from Q70. He started with a lot, and they dwindled as battles and depressing/stressful stuff fro him occured. Scanning him with the Empath Crystal would be the quickest way to get him to fess up.

-Oh boy, you guys diverged a lot from the story! :classic: First was Siercon earning himself an early spot in the Judgment Hall, by lying his way past Corvis. Next, you spared the angels. NORMALLY, there would have been a large riot awaiting you outside Heroica Hall before you could breach Eschaton, and the more slowing actions you took (saving the Cours from the syndicate fire, forging the water tunnel instead of draining it) the more intense the mob would've been. It would've been led by none other than Savato; Octavyn, Punii, Jonathan, and Alice Incor would've been mixed up in the fray, and they could've all died. Doing the slow actions would've let the mob swell up more, basically ensuring someone was gonna die. You bartered your way out of it. :laugh:

There was also originally gonna be a sidequest to stop Strivus, but I let that loose end tie itself up after Immortalis got killed, because the pacing was going towards a climax and a sidequest would've ruined that.

Edited by Endgame

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On a broader scale, though, I'm not sure I'm looking to develop Arthur so much as to have him there as a tool for QMs and other players to develop their own characters; as someone here once said, "if you want to write a story, host a Quest; if you want to experience a story, play in one." I'm paraphrasing, but still, a lot of my past roleplaying strikes me as...well, selfish, really, and I really want to avoid that as much as I can. :def_shrug:

From what I seen out of you, you definitely need to be hosting a lot more. Every post I seen of your seems to be a whole page long.

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Is there a convenient thread that could guide me to formulas on how to scale monster lvl and health for a party? Or should I just try to use other successful battles as skeletal examples?

I'm trying to start with creating some super small light hearted quest, but the biggest unknown for me is creating enemy statistics beyond the cute square picture :wall:

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Is there a convenient thread that could guide me to formulas on how to scale monster lvl and health for a party? Or should I just try to use other successful battles as skeletal examples?

I'm trying to start with creating some super small light hearted quest, but the biggest unknown for me is creating enemy statistics beyond the cute square picture :wall:

For health I typically add up the party's level and weapon power disregarding any modifiers and multiply by a number that feels appropriate for the enemy. Bosses usually end up being five, I think.

For level, well, as long as your basic 'big rats' aren't one-shotting any party members, it should be fine. :tongue:

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Is there a convenient thread that could guide me to formulas on how to scale monster lvl and health for a party? Or should I just try to use other successful battles as skeletal examples?

I'm trying to start with creating some super small light hearted quest, but the biggest unknown for me is creating enemy statistics beyond the cute square picture :wall:

For health, (sum of party member level I expect to attack the enemy in one round + weapon) x # of rounds of combat I'm aiming for x .67 rounded down. As for level, party member health who I expect to face the enemy / how many consecutive rounds I feel they should last before they go down = 1 for extreme, = 2 for hard, = 3 for moderate, = 4 for easy. Specials are all about what adds flavor or unique strategies to the game.

So if I have a 5th level rogue I'm designing a moderate monster I would have:

Monster

Level = Rogues Health/3

Health = (5+3)*4 [i.e. the number of rounds I'm expecting the combat to last * 2/3)

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Is there a convenient thread that could guide me to formulas on how to scale monster lvl and health for a party? Or should I just try to use other successful battles as skeletal examples?

+1. I am looking to adapt Heroica to a homebrew campaign. Any tidbits would be helpful.

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Frankly I think this thread needs to be separated. One thread to talk about peopls opinion of a pictular Quest. And the other thread talking about how to run a quest. Because how it is run right now, any one new to wanting to host a quest is probably a little intimidated. Since any information they might need is buried in this thread some where.

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Thanks guys, both great very helpful! I'll save'm to my phone and fiddle with the numbers. Definitely a huge leap forward on one of the major 'daunting parts'.

Edited by Siercon and Coral

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I generally go by methods similar to what WBD and Pie put forth, but I also try to take into consideration other factors; for example, in every Quest I try to have at least one enemy that a particular party member will have difficulty with, and another that they're particularly well-suited to handle (bonus points if one Hero's weakness is another Hero's strength). I don't do it for every battle (that would be overkill), but if I've given every player at least two memorable enemies in a Quest, I'm usually pretty satisfied with my enemy design. :classic:

I'll also try to balance enemies later in the Quest to match loot I've previously dropped, if it's not too out of place; I want my loot to be something meaningful to my players, and one way of doing that is making sure as much of it as possible gets at least some use before inevitably being discarded/sold off after the end of the Quest.

Immunities: my general rule of thumb is no more than three, or four MAX if it's supposed to be a "hard" enemy. (Immune to Instant Kill I don't count as one of these immunities, but use it with care anyway.) Take it from someone who's learned it the hard way on both sides: enemies that do too much to limit your options are not fun to fight, and usually lead to disinterest, frustration, and endless, tedious "I repeat"; try to leave openings for your players to accomplish interesting things besides dealing damage, and you'll see their enjoyment go up immensely. :wink: (Protip: opportunities for mid-combat roleplaying are almost always a good idea, if you can provide them--I've had the most success with allied NPCs for this, but in a party with good chemistry a good villain can provoke this as well.)

...oh! Important consideration: make sure to include enemies that carry Gold. It doesn't have to be every battle, but it should be in at least some, and not just for Rogues either; there's been a dearth of Gold-dropping enemies lately, and it's not a good trend--not only for the sake of Gold-stealing Rogues (though you can use it as a nifty risk-reward complication if you have some in the party), but for ALL classes that need gold to buy supplies, upgrades, and equipment.

The only other trend I'd want to warn you on is this: be sparing with instant KO, and ESPECIALLY with AoE KOs. (Enemies that deal more damage than a given Hero has health count as instant KO as well for design purposes, and are leagues more dangerous to use since there's no immunity to that kind of instant KO.) Remember, you want to give your players a challenge, not back them into an unwinnable situation. Again, try to give players options; so long as the Back Row isn't completely tankable for all characters, you don't have to make Front Row fighting too dangerous to even try. (And if the Back Row is completely tankable for some but not all characters, that's fine; let those characters benefit from their build, the others will still have a challenge.) This is probably the hardest thing to get right (and I can't claim to have anything even REMOTELY resembling a good record on this :snicker: ), but it's something I want to see, and thus something I strive for. I guess that's sort of the ultimate QMing advice: host a Quest you'd want to play. Follow that guideline, and everything should turn out just fine. :classic:

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I would say that anyone who can drop gold should drop gold. Except in rare cases, I don't see why any Humanoid enemy should not have some gold on them. Animals may be a different story...maybe. Even a beggar can have one gold coin on him. :tongue:

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