Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[Flipz]

Overall, I really liked Quest 100. I'll say more when 102 ends, but I'm really pleased that in between the one-off "mission" style Quests, we're getting a few more options along the lines of full-on campaigns.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that we're getting more Wolfgang members who are actual people instead of neatly-wrapped parcels of loot and experience. This is what I and others have been asking for for a long time, ever since you teased us with Violetta and Steerpike in 66, and I feel like you delivered big time. You already know Walbartan has captured my interest (I'm already working out how I might incorporate her into the next Ace Assassin Quest), and Hodurr was frickin' hilarious--there needs to be another Quest with him helping the Heroes. Of the Final Four, only Detraehd Loc seemed completely devoid of personality, but I get the impression that she might have been an intentional case. It was also neat to get to see a bit more of Elphaba, and I strongly suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences if and when she returns to Eubric--i.e. perhaps her never coming back at all.

I guess I should take a moment here to address again the content you graciously allowed me to use in 104 (which, as has been noted, was originally slated as optional content for Quest 100). First of all, thank you for creating Euflear--you have no idea what e means to me, and e will always have a special place in my heart. Secondly, the fact that you had so much material prepared for a completely optional location speaks VOLUMES to your preparation as a QM, as well as the unprecedented amount of freedom you give your players. I referred to Quest 100 as more of a campaign than a Quest, and this is one of the ways it's most evident: in how much world you thought up for the players to explore. It's a level of commitment all of us QM should strive for.

Since I agree with everything that's already been said about most of the Heroes, I guess I'll move on to the elephant in the room: Throlar. Lord Duvors, you've said you don't intend to cause problems, so please take a moment to listen to my advice to you:

As you act right now, you are to a carefully-constructed work of interactive storytelling what a well-thrown bowling ball is to a game of Jenga. There's a reason I'm not referring to Heroica as a "game": because it's not. Roleplaying isn't just a game, it is a hobby, a form of collaborative art. Just as running along the walls of the Louvre with a can of spraypaint may be art but is in no way constructive nor collaborative, antagonizing your fellow players may be "true to the character" but is in no way collaborative nor constructive. Therefore, I strongly suggest that whenever you are in a Quest, you immediately begin a PM conversation with each of your fellow players, and when Throlar is about to say or do something that might be disruptive, ask your fellow players first if said action would be crossing the line--and be prepared to change his action if their answer is "no". I'm not saying you have to always make Throlar follow the whims of every single other player in the game, but I am saying you should consider who you might be hurting before just jumping in, and perhaps consider your wording more carefully so as not to seem so abrasive--not every single little thing has to become an argument, after all. Also, protip: players generally put up with more in-character shenanigans if you're open with them and do your best to reassure them that you're not trying to ruin their fun.

I do want to commend Sandy for dealing so quickly and so well with such a huge disruption--you turned what could possibly have been a Quest-ruining moment and turned it into an awesome turning point in the Quest, so well done there.

As usual, Sandy, your build were gorgeous--I think we're getting spoiled. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Vega again, but in another way I almost feel like Babaleth's part in the world is done now--with the Tower gone, and Heroes given a black name with both Vega and the witches, the region just doesn't seem like it needs to be explored any longer; we almost already know what the outcome of Heroes in Babaleth would be.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point, so I'll just close by reiterating: awesome, awesome Quest, Sandy.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Flipz

[Khorne]

Like the others, I really, really enjoyed #100. I agree with most of what has been said so far, so there's little I can still add. The pacing got slow at some points, but most of the time that was because of in-party bickering. Near the end of the quest, my input somewhat lessened, too, but that mainly had to do with some stuff in real life, not the quest.

Unlike K-Nut, I for one, did not see it coming that Orokai, Walbartan, Hodurr and the assassin were the Fearsome Four. I actually believed Orokai's story and Walbartan just didn't really seem like Wolfpack material in my eyes. That was a nice twist. Also, the way you turned the quest from one quest, into 2 quests in order to deal with the "Throlar situation" went really well. Sorry to say, but decision make went a whole lot easier after Throlar left the main party, just like the general atmosphere between the PC's improved (IMO) .

The party dynamic was cool, though . I've said it before, but this was probably one of the most rag-tag and amoral party's there has been. Too bad, we couldn't get to revisit Vega, because of those amoral actions, but overall, it was really fun.

Althior/K-Nut: I like Althior. Don't really know why, though. Like I said in the analysis of #94, I just like how he's somewhat dark and moody, but actually still a nice guy. Of all the characters, I think Althior was really the most well-suited to be the party leader. His self-centered, too, but he can manage to lay back on the greed enough to look after the well-being of his party members.

En Sabah Nur/Jebediahs: Oh yeah . I had never quested with Nur before and since I mostly only half-read other quests, I didn't know the character all that well, but god, I loved the man. He's so, I don't know really,... Quirky? He's dark and brooding with a passion for power and knowledge, but he can be weird and funny most of the times, too. Someone said it before, but in terms of behaviour, Nur reminds me of Master Roshi from DBZ . Here's a fine example of the weird humor I mean. When all others are actively trying to defend their choice of siding with the Wolfgang, this is what Nur said:

"Woah there, lady. Hold back your kitty." Nur uses Animal Talk to calm the pet. "Purr trill meow growl meow meow. <I lick cat. Good time, 20 gold.>"

That just cracked me up .

Sarge/Pyro: Sarge and Eric are two characters that think very much alike, so it was no wonder they got along once they got to set aside their petty rivalry. For that, I'd have to "thank" Throlar in a way, because he was the external enemy that made Eric and Sarge join forces. If it had been for him, there probably would've been more quarrels between the two. Sarge is a cool character, though. The old, though, chain-smoking ex-pirate stands out somewhat in Heroica. He's even more greedy and self-centered than Eric, I think. He's also pretty bad-megablocks in battle, holy shit those Zoidberg Gauntlets and that Pegleg .

Throlar/Lord Duvors: Can't really add much more to what the others have said. Throlar is well RP'ed, overall, but his bursts of jealousy and anger towards the others got really annoying at times. It's just the character, I know, but then you as a player also posted some rude remarks towards Sandy and us and that just makes it more difficult to differentiate between character and player. I actually liked Throlar better in #94. Now, it seemed that you didn't want Throlar to "underperform" in terms of rudeness and amorality compared to all the other PC's that you just had him argue with us all the time, to prove he's "badass", too, when in fact that's not necessary. Throlar was the only one who cared about the mutants and that's a facet I liked. The fact that he is, actually, differen from the other PC's.

Eric/Me: Like #94, this quest seemed really well-suited for Eric. I really enjoyed interacting with the other party members, because all of them seemed to have ulterior motives and whatnot. In #15, there was Maurice Ratibor to keep Eric in check, but now, there was nobody. Althior tried, but effectively couldn't care less if Eric did something stupid. It was as if he actually enjoyed the Nord's antics at times (not the heavy, important actions, but smaller ones like bickering with Throlar or flirting with Peri). I'm quite content with the way I played Eric in this quest and thanks for all the kudos from the others . #94, the two Bonaparte quests and this one were definitely amongst my favorite ones to play the character and I think that shines through in the RP.

Like I said, I really liked the party here and I'd love to quest with them again. It was probably one of my favorite party's to be in (the one with Erdy, Hybros and Maurice in #15 is probably my favorite to date, followed by this one, tied with #42's party).

So, thanks for the quest Sandy (and the other party members). I really liked it .

Edited September 29, 2014 by Khorne

[Sandy]

Going to reply some of your comments now, but first of all thanks for everyone's feedback! It really helps me see what I'm doing right and what I'm not.

First off, when the quest started, I knew that the party was going to be one of the coolest that any quest has had. I'll get to the party on its own later, but I think that had to be one of the highlights for me. Paired with the story, this is one of the coolest quests anyone has hosted. I absolutely loved the story, and it kept me interested at every turn.

Glad to hear the story did not suffer due to the open-world style I created for this quest. You really could have been able to visit every location on the map if you had chosen to do so.

It was my intention from the get-go to offer a chance to work for the Wolfgang instead, and seeing so many Wolfgang-sympathizers signing up made it work well.

With another kind of party, there would have been no chance that they would even listen to Mr. Gaunt's proposition. That's why the Fearsome Four probed the party's morality throughout the way (first in Dim Haven with the mercenaries, secondly at the Ruins of Transmogria with the mutants, and third in Vega by assassinating the tavern keeper - which I admit was quite a brutal thing to do). After the escape from Vega, I was sure what remained from the party was ready to aid the Wolfgang if the reward was good.

I loved the idea of a Pongcanis being thrust from her tribe because she was simply too kind.

Walbartan really grew on me too, perhaps because she's like Ellaria if she had been born as a pongcanis.

There were two major parts of the quest that bothered me, however. One was that in the middle, the quest seemed very, very slow paced (at least to me). We were in Vega for a long time and really didn't do all that much. Half the time was bickering over how to get out of the city, which, as PL, I think I really should have done a much better job handling that.

That part was troublesome for me too, since I couldn't get a straight answer from the party about what to do for a long time. It did pave the way for the rest of the quest, though, so I see it as a quite important phase.

Really wish we could have just spent our reward at Vega, though, but the choices we made really prevented that.

Funny thing is, you could've returned to Vega just fine. Everyone you met there (Grimelda, Buwakhareen, Periwinkle) were either dead or gone with you - and you met the shopkeeper before the murder so she couldn't have connected you with it. All Roland had was Throlar's vague descriptions, and he wouldn't have expected you to return to the crime scene so soon.

Another issue I had (which I really don't have that much of one now) was the Golem battle, mainly the Seneschal himself. Had I known that that would have been the final battle of the quest, I wouldn't have been so worked up about it at the time. Having him be immune to all effects and Ethereal was really a pain, especially (for me) the ether sapping. Without those Blinding Bombs we'd have been screwed, but somehow we managed to make it out. Again, now that I see that it was in fact the boss battle, we could have been much better prepared for it.

I realized too that I hadn't given you any notion that the golem-battle was the last storyline battle, and I apologize for that. The battle came at an unopportune time anyway, coinciding with my vacation and all.

I do have a few questions about some of the options, too:

• First off, what would have happened if we had been permanently effected by the Mutant God? Was there going to be a way to remedy that? Or were you subtly trying to get us to move along?
  
• What would have been in the Chateau Des Coeurs, had we chosen to enter? Something similar to the V-cards from Quest #12?
  
• Had we chosen to enter, would there have been anything of note in the Gingerbread House?
  
• Also (I'm kinda slow) what was the optional battle you mentioned that would have happened
  
• Finally, can we be expecting a bomb store anytime soon?
  

1. You would have been cured either by Elphaba's mother or Baba, depending on your choice. I just wanted to make the demon extra challenging, but I guess I pushed it a little too far.

2. I actually built a vast selection of prostitutes (most of which you could spot walking among the tourists in the pictures of the Main Square). You could've then paid for sex and gotten a little boost to your character.

3. You would've been able to interact with Elphaba and her family more. It was a shame that the scene happened at the time I was really busy, because I would've loved to have built the house. It just wasn't important enough for me to see the trouble in the end.

4. The optional battle would have happened if you had passed through the Strait of Seirenes at some point on your quest. You would have witnessed Blackgull Bonaparte on his way to Eubric get assaulted by the Siren Queen Sterope and her sirens.

5. I advice you to keep a close eye on the Marketplace-topic.

Individually, I thought the battles were good... But simply out of order, really. You had the Fateful Four as a good starter, which escalated into the downright brutal mutant battle, to the Buwarkheen battle, to the Golem battle. I thought the battles were well balanced this time around individually, but ultimately they didn't fit into the curve well. I know that isn't your forte, however, so I'll stop harping on you for it.

You do realize that the quest did not progress on rails, don't you? I could've only planned battles for each location, I couldn't decide the order in which they were fought in. The party was free to roam the Darklands as they wished, and I created something to do for them in each location.

-I feel as if the lot of the big choices in your quests have something in common, Sandy: Both choices rarely have impact on the main story. 58 was, in terms of your hosting portfolio, 7 quests ago. 58 had a fantastic choice: Nemo or Reno. No matter what choice, the plotline would be changed irreversibly, and so would Eubric. In some of your decisive choices, hoever, the choice is either advancing the main plot... Or recives lots of loot, and just postponing it. Sometimes, Sandy, I feel as if the quest design involves some plot being lost at the very end of the quest, only to be discovered later. This was fine, but in Quest 100, the stage had already been set - let the show go on! No need to keep pushing these plot details further and further back.

I know what you mean, but I don't see it necessarily as a bad thing. The Wolfgang had a so-called "defensive victory" - they managed to keep Baba in their ranks for a good while longer. If the quest had been successful, the Veterans (and through them the Six Houses) would have gotten to know what Baba is and how to defeat her.

What else do you think the Wolfgang should have gotten from botching up the quest besides that?

-The Wolfgang are kind of in a no man's land of sympathy. You have Ulric's view, who is sympathetic enough... But then it's never shown through him or his minions. We've never seen the Wolfgang do anything nice, per se. And then you have Baba, who is even admitted by the blindly loyal Walbartan to be bad news, and she's the one shown doing stuff that affects the plot. It's like the Wolfgang is trying to be dragged in two directions, and has become ineffective as a result.

Ulric's methods are brutal, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Most of my quests are from the point of view of the Houses in Power, and of course they see no good in the uprising.

Wolfgang is being dragged in two directions, that's totally intentional. If they were purely goody-two-shoes, the whole point of the organization would be nulled. I don't even want everyone to sympathize them, otherwise the ending of the main storyline would have been decided already.

I couldn't help thinking these same thoughts throughout the quest as well, though less so about the second point. The narrator of the main story arc in this game, Sandy, has a story to tell that may or may not change over time, but I have a feeling he has known already (at least to some degree; a rough idea) what that ending to the story will be. It's a pitfall that's hard to avoid for any QM or game designer, but I agree that it would seem more authentic if the choices actually changed something. If the heroes had chosen to complete their mission for Heroica, what would the Wolfgang lose in the grand scheme of things? It doesn't seem like they would lose much. There'd probably still be a Wolfgang quest in the future and a following arc where they try to take over Eubric, as has been the plot so far.

Again, is that a bad thing that the plot is rolling towards a certain climax? Why would I allow the Wolfgang to be suddenly decimated and drop the whole basis of my storyline? Then it would be just "everyone lived as they had always lived" type of story...

This quest was more about Baba and her influence over the city's politics. Had the quest been successful, she would have been walking on very thin ice and probably died the next time a party would have encountered her. Now she still has time to work her magic.

Would things actually change? It's a difficult question to answer for any of us, maybe even Sandy himself. But I definitely agree that the consequences should have been more apparent. They got a ton of gold and Wolfgang rep for switching sides, don't you think the Veterans would be upset enough with them to consider kicking them out of Heroica? Of course that's not realistic for the game and the players can't be punished that way for being given the option to fight with the Wolfgang, but some kind of penalty should have been incurred in my opinion (other than the loss of the quest reward).

Why should the players be penalized for choosing a side? Especially since some of the Veterans are growing sympathetic to Wolfgang as well. The Veterans know that their members make their own decisions about who they help, there's no list of factions that can't hire Heroica for their aid.

Of course Heroica will get in trouble with the Six Houses later on if they canoodle with the Wolfgang too much, but that's left for the future.

As for the Wolfgang's portrayal, I felt that Warlbatan and the others were good, genuine characters, and reflected the goals of the Wolfgang better than we've ever seen before. With the exception of maybe the Foundation Day Ball quest, we've only seen ruthless thugs and the mercilessness of the Wolfgang. Maybe that's a good thing, since thugs don't necessarily share the views and intelligence of their leaders rather than following blindly and act as muscle. But before this quest, I definitely thought it was hard for any halfway moral character (hero) to follow the Wolfgang. The change with that in this quest was surprising, but appropriate now if not ever.

Thank you. Ulric's plan is being made visible finally. He started conquering Eubric from the bottom up, and who are in the bottom? The scum, the lowlifes and the thieves. Wolfgang has calmed things in the city on that part, eradicating most of the criminal factions, and is moving past that phase to appeal to the common folk on the street. How many people they will convince on their side remains to be seen.

I loved seeing Roland again, thank you Sandy for putting him in at my request. I like the way he's developed. In my eyes, he's never been an evil man (on the contrary his actions in the Dastan Trilogy were for "justice"), but seeks to achieve his goals in a less moral or twisted way. His role in developing Vega is largely a good thing for Babeleth because it acts as a center of commerce where there used to be just a swamp. But it's also a hive for crime and indecency where he rules as something like a king.

Thank you for letting me use him! His involvement made Vega a much more interesting place.

Of the Final Four, only Detraehd Loc seemed completely devoid of personality, but I get the impression that she might have been an intentional case. It was also neat to get to see a bit more of Elphaba, and I strongly suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences if and when she returns to Eubric--i.e. perhaps her never coming back at all.

Detraehd Loc was the only one of the Four that never joined the heroes' party, so she was obviously left undeveloped due to that - and then she died. Her life had made her truly as "coldhearted" as her name, and there could have been an interesting story in how she managed to leave the Red Assassins and live.

Secondly, the fact that you had so much material prepared for a completely optional location speaks VOLUMES to your preparation as a QM, as well as the unprecedented amount of freedom you give your players. I referred to Quest 100 as more of a campaign than a Quest, and this is one of the ways it's most evident: in how much world you thought up for the players to explore. It's a level of commitment all of us QM should strive for.

I'm glad it showed how much thought I put behind this quest. After #93 which had a lot of content but not a lot of heart, I wanted to give the players NPCs and locations they would actually be interested about (if not care, outright). Thinking about background stories for everything helped a lot.

I do want to commend Sandy for dealing so quickly and so well with such a huge disruption--you turned what could possibly have been a Quest-ruining moment and turned it into an awesome turning point in the Quest, so well done there.

I know it was a risk taking Lord Duvors onto the quest, but I wanted to give him one more chance. I didn't mind what Throlar was doing for the quest, I accepted it as a challenge, but his snide OoC-comments were a bit too much for me...

As usual, Sandy, your build were gorgeous--I think we're getting spoiled. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Vega again, but in another way I almost feel like Babaleth's part in the world is done now--with the Tower gone, and Heroes given a black name with both Vega and the witches, the region just doesn't seem like it needs to be explored any longer; we almost already know what the outcome of Heroes in Babaleth would be.

I agree, Babeleth was pretty well covered. I wouldn't mind seeing a quest taking place in Fellcrest, the village of the undead, though, but none of my storylines seem to fit for it.

Decamon will certainly make a breakthrough outside Babeleth, though.

[Kintobor]

Honestly, 100 was really good. I can excuse the longer quest length for the fact that there was always something going on, and always something to do, whether it be go out and find all the Decamon Champions, or just get to the Tower, there was always something to do, and it was always different. Babeleth was just an interesting and different locale, which also helped me excuse the longer length. It's something we've never really seen, and I think that helped me keep an interest and keep watching the quest. And your sets, holy cow! Vega is probably my favourite set to date. I love how classy and dirty it is at the same time! It was just all around a really good quest. Job well done!

I agree, Babeleth was pretty well covered. I wouldn't mind seeing a quest taking place in Fellcrest, the village of the undead, though, but none of my storylines seem to fit for it.

A village of undead, eh? Well, I may just have a use for it.

[K-Nut]

Funny thing is, you could've returned to Vega just fine. Everyone you met there (Grimelda, Buwakhareen, Periwinkle) were either dead or gone with you - and you met the shopkeeper before the murder so she couldn't have connected you with it. All Roland had was Throlar's vague descriptions, and he wouldn't have expected you to return to the crime scene so soon.

All true. Though it didn't seem (at least to me) that the portal was still open for us to return. If it were, then I'll be giving myself a hard kick in the butt over it.

5. I advice you to keep a close eye on the Marketplace-topic.

I agree, Babeleth was pretty well covered. I wouldn't mind seeing a quest taking place in Fellcrest, the village of the undead, though, but none of my storylines seem to fit for it.

That was the last place I really wanted to go, especially after I heard it was a haven for the undead. I felt like that would have been really cool for Althior.

[Palathadric]

Probably just about my favourite quest to date and well worthy of its number. The party was superb and the NPCs were also almost all really fun to read. Slightly disappointed that the party didn't turn around and double cross the Wolfgang. I was so looking forward to them collecting the rewards from both factions, but alas.

[Cutcobra]

I loved this quest! I liked the characters, the locations, the battles and the story (everything). I would have liked it more if the heroes decided to find out the truth about Baba, and if they would have gone to the Lost Forest (In the wiki it says an Archdemon is there).

So yeah, awesome quest Sandy! :default:

Edited September 30, 2014 by Cutcobra

[Flare]

Yeah I have to agree with everyone else here, Quest 100 was quite a spectacular quest!!

[LordoftheNoobs]

I agree with everything said too, except for everything negative said about Throlar. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is, but never mind. Not my business anyway, I suppose. Great quest, as always.

[Sandy]

Thank you for the praises! I'm getting a hang of what works in a quest and what doesn't.

I would have liked it more if the heroes decided to find out the truth about Baba, and if they would have gone to the Lost Forest (In the wiki it says an Archdemon is there).

Quest#104 already visited the Lost Forest and one of the party members met the archdemon, in case you missed it.

[Cutcobra]

Quest#104 already visited the Lost Forest and one of the party members met the archdemon, in case you missed it.

I did miss it... and now it's time to reread that whole quest again...

[Zepher]

Thank you for the praises! I'm getting a hang of what works in a quest and what doesn't.

You can say that again. I feel it's only right that I aid my praise here, Sandy. 100 is the best quest of Heroica so far... or at least in the top five, but right now it certainly feels like the best, what with us just coming off it. I mean, it's by no means perfect, but it was a damn fun time and it had story and characters to boot! I'm going to go ahead and take a few moments to tell you what I thought really rocked... and try to think up a few things that didn't: though I can't think of any at this very moment, I feel a critique wouldn't be fully complete without them.

Things that rocked:

1) The Tower. It was awesome. The Golems were alright, but the interior was incredible... and the way you handled it was done very well too, letting everyone run around, taking Hodur out of the picture. I really thought he was one of the weaker characters of the quest, but he was clearly comedic relief, so it wasn't a huge deal, and he wasn't super weak anyway, just in comparison to some of the others. But that Warlbarten/Peri/Guardian final sequence was wonderful, and felt very earned - Warlbarten was with the heroes from the very beginning of the quest, so it felt proper that she should end it, even if it really was just chance. Letting Nur just leave was awesome too, but because he's an awesome character and that sequence with him was great.

2) The Fearsome Four reveal. Genuinely didn't expect it, and it's rare that I don't call a Sandy twist - not that they aren't cool, but often times they don't catch me quite so unawares. I thought Orakai was sort of weird where he popped up, but I really didn't give it more thought than that, and I never doubted Warlbarten. That was genuinely awesome, and the comedic misdirection was really fun too, what with the Wizard of Oz characters. I was really sad to see the Assassin and Orakai go. I didn't really feel that Tholar had earned the right to kill those characters. I know he tried hard, but he failed, and they ended up dying anyway.

3) But, in that regard: the party split was organic, well done, and seemed to work extremely well, letting us explore more of that world, give depth to characters, and get the quest moving quicker without Tholar. Well done! I know you had to give him allies, but the Undead just seemed sort of wedged in there randomly. Wasn't so much a fan of that, and then she died, so we really didn't get what she was about or why she was along or why she was so willing to fight.

4) Again, know you didn't plan it - I like that we don't know Baba's past. I think that makes her an infinitely better villain. She is the Feeder. She consumes. That's awesome. She is evil from a time long gone. That's awesome. Why ruin that by giving her specifics. It's the same reason the Joker is a wonderful villain - he is the evil embodied. It's why the Emperor and Voldemort work. Complex villains are superb, but villains who are so alien and so evil, it is their whole being - we can never understand that, and we must always fight it, and any explanation diminishes them in my eyes. So I'm glad we never found out, and hope we won't in the future.

5) Those NPCs. I've always enjoyed your NPCs, but you've heard my complaints lodged against them before. This was the right amount of NPCs introduced at the right pace. Warlbarten had time to grow before Orakai showed up, and they both got time to shine before the rest of the Four appeared. Then Dain showed up, and he stuck around and took shape, and right when we got a feel for him, we met Cinnabar, etc. It was a great example of something you sometimes fail to do - you let us get our hooks into the characters. I think the length of the quest really helped, but the pacing as well. Pacing is tough. And sometimes impossible - if the NPCs all need to be active at the beginning, what is one to do? - but you really nailed it here.

6) I like the idea that even the Wolfgang is already being torn apart, just like the houses they're trying to replace. Baba is evil!! And that proves it. And Ulric is idealist. The chaos will always reign.

Some things to still work on:

1) I love the open world of the quest, but directing people can't hurt sometimes. Vega did drag... and I think you could have forced them to make a choice sooner. You're the God! Make guards come down towards them as they fail to make up their minds. I'm taking video game writing right now, and one of the books we read talk about why people are wrong when they ask for 100 endings to one game - with only one beginning, not all endings are satisfying. We can adjust, since we are humans running the game, but not all endings are good, so we as QMs should also steer. And you mostly did. Vega was the only fall (and not a huge one at that, really). This is more of a tangential thought than something wrong in 100 - I thought it was damn near perfect.

2) I thought the Tower dying was a more satisfying ending that Ulric. He seemed tacked on. Warlbarten already lent the Wolfgang some credence, having Ulric come out and do exposition after that weakened it.

3) The tree battle seemed superfluous. Minor problem.

Superb quest, Sandy. :thumbup:

[samurai-turtle]

I did miss it... and now it's time to reread that whole quest again...

Here's a tip, read near the end. It is more of a bonus thing.

[Sandy]

2) I thought the Tower dying was a more satisfying ending that Ulric. He seemed tacked on. Warlbarten already lent the Wolfgang some credence, having Ulric come out and do exposition after that weakened it.

3) The tree battle seemed superfluous. Minor problem.

Whaaat?! You didn't like the fact that the heroes met Ulric - this being his very first meeting with any heroes, and only his second appearance? I think you're mixing player knowledge with character knowledge - it was absolutely necessary for the heroes to meet Ulric in order to convince them that siding with the Wolfgang could be a good idea.

As for the battle in the forest, there hadn't been a battle in the quest for a while, and I kept yammering on how dangerous the wilderness is - so wouldn't it have been odd if the heroes hadn't actually encountered any trouble besides the mutants? Besides, the heroes had a choice to walk along the road (and battle the winged monkeys again) or through the forest - so there had to be a consequence for choosing the other option, too.

While I appreciate the feedback, you don't really have to go digging for something negative to say. It's not really that constructive...

[Jebediahs]

I had a great time in this quest. It was awesome. Great scenery and story. I didn't mind the pacing because lately I haven't had the amount of time I'd like to participate so when things slowed down I was all for it. Unnecessary out of character comments ruin the immersive experience for me and with Lord Duvors' many disrespectful out of control OoC comments I let the other players play with him and only posted when necessary.

En Sabah Nur feels a lack of camaraderie with the other heroes of the Hall and in his opinion, the values of Heroicans aren't what he thinks they should be so he has been regressing to his former fully degenerate self. Nur wanted the Party to somehow believe that the Wolfgang weren't involved with the quest and to throw suspicion from them but I didn't want to type as such because I knew his inner thoughts would somehow be deduced through poor roleplaying so I omitted them and Nur came across as a clueless buffoon. I didn't expect any of the traveling NPC companions to be Wolfgang so that was a neat surprise to me.

The golem battle was my favorite only I could have done without the condescending smug smileys in 2/3 of the QM posts. I like that we weren't as prepared as we should have been and that it was the final battle. Without a strategy the battle came out even more interesting in my opinion.

I wanted to go see the demon kitty again at the gingerbread house and Nur wanted to ask the Keeper questions but he was told to wait outside O_o. The Seneschal item is really cool and not overpowered at the same time which I appreciate in drop/loot creation. Would the golem heart expired or remained as junk in my inventory if it was not brought to Cinnabar?

Fun quest.

[Zepher]

I respectfully disagree, actually. I don't think 100 was a perfect quest. I think it was a damn good quest, but I don't think it was perfect, and I don't think I'd be doing anyone a service if I didn't try to figure out why I felt that way. I wouldn't be doing you a service, and I wouldn't be doing myself a service (because if I didn't try to find your mistakes, I'd be just as likely to make them) and I don't think I would be doing other QMs a service if I kept all my thoughts to myself - just as I don't think you'd be doing anyone a service if you didn't explain why you did what you did.

I stand by my comments, but you don't have to listen to them. Those are the parts of the quest I didn't enjoy reading as much, but you can take what I think into as little or as large consideration as you choose.

[Sandy]

I wanted to go see the demon kitty again at the gingerbread house and Nur wanted to ask the Keeper questions but he was told to wait outside O_o. The Seneschal item is really cool and not overpowered at the same time which I appreciate in drop/loot creation. Would the golem heart expired or remained as junk in my inventory if it was not brought to Cinnabar?

Your whole sidequest in the end was totally improvised on the go. I didn't plan any of it in advance.

I respectfully disagree, actually. I don't think 100 was a perfect quest. I think it was a damn good quest, but I don't think it was perfect, and I don't think I'd be doing anyone a service if I didn't try to figure out why I felt that way. I wouldn't be doing you a service, and I wouldn't be doing myself a service (because if I didn't try to find your mistakes, I'd be just as likely to make them) and I don't think I would be doing other QMs a service if I kept all my thoughts to myself - just as I don't think you'd be doing anyone a service if you didn't explain why you did what you did.

I came of rude in my previous comment, I apologize. I did not mean to imply my quest was perfect - nothing is - but my point was to show that those thing you criticized about had a reason to be included in my mind. They were not superfluous or something extra in my thinking. That's all I was trying to say.

[KotZ]

Wow I just finished my first quest as a QM. Thank you guys in the party for playing. I'll have my thoughts and breakdown for you guys up later today.

[Flare]

Quest #101

I'm not a man of many words so I'll not try to overly elaborate.

The quest was good. Not fantastic, plenty of things to improve in the future, but please don't be offended, even Sandy's first quest wasn't super amazing. Its after trial and error that amazing quests are designed and run, and you have potential if you'll put your mind to it.

As a semi-retired QM I understand that hosting is difficult. It is a huge project, especially the first quest.

Battles:

I think you made things unnecessarily harder for yourself in the terms of balancing battles, by deciding to choose me for the quest. It was also frustrating for me, as the enemies had just enough health to make it easy to kill in one shot for me, but for the others it would've taken ages to take down. Also the whole 2*level variable enemy level thing was a killer for me, as my health is definitely below 2*level. However you seemed to get a better hold of the balancing and the last battle was definitely enjoyable even, and not a pain like the others. So good job with that, even though it was a pain otherwise.

Story:

There was little story to it, and the sidequests were a bit tacked on. You didn't really build the town up very much, if you had included more characters or more pictures it would've seemed a little realer. To me it felt like there were Lacy, William, the old man and the runaways, and no other people were even referred to as far as I remember. I almost felt inclined to go with Calden's offer, since I hadn't formed any emotional bond with the townspeople. But maybe this is just me and the others will have felt differently. I liked Calden Den, although his part and the whole part leading up to it were a bit easy to guess before hand, but it was pretty interesting. However, Calden's story was a bit odd and not believable, I'm not sure how you made up that one I really did hope to side with Calden but I guess thats Benji's evil side growing a bit. The story overall was a little bland but wasn't too bad.

Party:

Again, the party was extremely unbalanced. However i want to discuss the roleplaying aspect at this point. I had a very positive roleplaying experience in this quest. :thumbsup: I liked all the characters, Benji not quite as much

Bobby/Zepher - Your second character is defintely unique, and I enjoy his talk, in character it is very strange and humorous You were absent a lot, but Benji appreciated his loyalistic attitudes. If Benji needed an apprentice then he'd know who to call

Vindsval/Asphalt - he is also a unique character whom Benji liked a lot. I don't have much to say but that I like Vindsval and you should keep working on his character, its nice so far.

Miderun/CallMePie - the only character Benji disliked A definitely not feminine female character, and had been enough of a smart mouth to really get on Benji's nerves. Benji has a mindset where he demands respect as ultimately a much more powerful warrior, and the other two complied satisfactorily however she refused. Great character, she better avoid Benji or he's gonna beat the hel outta her if they get into an argument

Thanks for hosting me KingoftheZempk! I'm sure looking forward to seeing your next quest

And this ended up being pretty long

[KotZ]

Quest 101 QM Thoughts

First off I want to thank again the four players and Sandy for letting me host a quest for the first time. I had a lot of fun and a lot of stressful times getting this quest going, and clearly it was not the best or perfect quest, but honestly I'm happy it had the flaws it did, because it allowed me to learn more about hosting and playing Heroica as well. And Don't worry Flare, no offense taken, I'm happy with the criticism. The quest was hectic for me to post because BS went down once or twice for a while and I didn't have access to my camera and collection until this past weekend when I went back home and that's when I took all of the villages headshots (cards?) So everything had to be done before I went back to university and if I had more time, the sets would have been better, although in retrospect I should have asked someone here to take pictures and all. That weekend, my laptop also broke so posting was a mess and EuroBricks doesn't allow good typing on mobile, even if you do the desktop version so updates in a car couldn't happen.

Battles

Those were probably the hardest for me, especially since I put a level 40+ character with three Level 1 characters. That was quite a bit of headaches. The balancing (especially the first two battles) was a challenge, but I think I found my footing at the last one, even if the battles weren't challenging for one player, but it was either make it extremely difficult where only he would most likely survive and level, or play to the lowest common denominator which is what I ended up doing. I have to thank Capt.JohnPaul for giving a little guidance regarding the design of the battles, as he kind of gave some nods of his head or shakes before I even pitched to Sandy regarding NPCs and battles.

Story

The story was something that popped in my head as something that could be a simple quest that wouldn't affect the lore of Heroica too much, especially since this was my first quest. The minimal story and sets were also in case other QMs ever want to host a quest in Tridentia, there's a launching point for them to build off of, especially since that whole area around Tridentia seems to not have been explored much, which is why the town was also a trading colony. It's also part of a story I'd like to build on in the next few months if I host another quest (which at the earliest would be mid December). I love editing and coloring my own films (go film majors) an this seemed like something that was--not easy--but accessible to me. The story and characters took their own shape as I began writing more and more. The first part was the whole Zent thing. I wanted something surprising and I originally was going to have Daniel Caso also have some problems, most likely a form of dementia but I couldn't think of a way to make that seem reasonable so I left it out of the pitch entirely and now can't see a place I could have added it. The Zents sidequest was the hardest dialogue for me to write for some reason.

The Lacy Lane/Letter sidequest was designed as a fetch quest that would have helped the party (well, if they were all low level) gain access to the items in the store cheaper, but Benji's high gold intake and generous loaning made that one pretty obsolete. Still, it was a small bit I wanted to tell to help give Lacy some backstory for upcoming quests involving Tridentia.

Calder Den was the one who wrote himself, I didn't intend for him to go as he did, and his background was an inkling in my head that seemed to grow as soon as you all met Captain Terrence. Calder originally was to have been on good terms with his family but somehow he wrote himself out of that, sneaky little devil. It actually became difficult to reel Calder's persona in, and originally there was never going to be the choice of siding with Calder or the town. I added it in as Calder was written during the quest, and was going to have a coin flip on who attacks first, Calder or the Town. But I realized if Calder attacked first, you would have ended up with a failed quest, I didn't want you guys to have a 50/50 shot on succeeding a quest. If you were able to side with Calder, you would have gotten more loot, most likely in gold. The only thing you would not have earned would be the Robes of the Archmagi as that only came with Calder. Now if the battle went more rounds and you let Calder call in more discolored townspeople you would have earned a lot more loot, balancing out the not letting you fight with Calder. If you did side with Calder, the only villager to live would be Luke, who would then be taken under Calder's wing as an acolyte and the future quest would involve Calder and Luke wanting to take down Calder's family an restaking his claim, but that quest is not happening now, reason being Calder is dead.

Party

Flare- I know you've been around for quite awhile, especially your character Benji. Obviously taking Benji along made my life much more difficult but I'm glad you went along, especially towards the end with Calder. I'm glad you helped correct me and pointed out what was wrong at every turn, because now I know the pitfalls to avoid.

CMP- I think Miderun can be an interesting character, although she needs work. Where she needs work I cannot say. You and Bobby seemed to get the short end of the stick in the battle way too much, an there were times when I was rolling the dice saying to myself "Please don't be a 6 or a 5, please don't be a 6 or--megablocks..."

Zepher- You weren't around as much, but it's understandable, especially with your weekends and your laptop going down. I originally wanted to avoid using Bobby on the quest as he reminds me way too much of the people I see here on my campus, which means you're doing something right with Bobby. I really look forward to what you're going to do with him in future quests. He was, as Bobby would say, "tight" and "dope".

Asphalt- I think Vindsval was my favorite character to take on the quest. I think the whole devout religious aspect to his character is cool and I think you played the whole player-knowledge vs character-knowledge really well, if you know what I mean. I think you have a great character that you can mold in upcoming quests.

OVerall, was the quest perfect? No, not by a long shot. But I had a great time hosting and learning and really look forward to doing an even better job next time. Thanks everyone!

[Zepher]

Well, 107 is over! I am proud of it. I don't think it was perfect, but I had fun, and hopefully I pushed the boundaries a little.

I am not sure that the story I wanted to tell translates well into a quest. Like with 92 (which I was also proud of) I feel there may have been too much... I don't know. Meandering of thought, and not enough drive. It makes for a story I am personally proud of, but I'm not sure if it's a particularly fun quest to play through. Hopefully it wasn't a bad quest to play through, at least. I've learned from my mistakes too late, too, because none of my remaining quests will be the sort of exploration of idea that 92 and 107 were.

Give me your thoughts, and in exchange I will give you my thoughts later!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, though I will obviously do character critiques at some point: Jimbee, thank you for letting me host this quest. I am honored that I got to tell the story of the imps that you so carefully crafted for so long. Hybros is a fantastic character, and I hope I did not disappoint. Pandora, WBD, and Sandy: thank you for coming along. Though this was clearly a Hybros quest, I hope you felt your characters were properly serviced as well. Nyx, Skrall and Ellaria are fantastic, and I hope that they all felt like they had some forward movement as characters this quest, and that I didn't make Hybros so central that you felt they were overshadowed.

[JimBee]

107: First of all, THANK YOU Zepher for hosting this quest. I wanted to move Hybros' story forward and I didn't know how to do it but in a quest. 107 did that perfectly, and I can't thank you enough for making that possible. Conversely, I also really liked that while this was a "Hybros quest," a lot of it was centered on your own storyline and the other PCs weren't cast aside. More on that later.

Overall, I did enjoy the quest. I share your thoughts that it was a good story, for several reasons. First, I really liked that it related so well with your other quests, and not just in ways that Hybros and/or others would be familiar with. For example, having the city be under the sea and having knowledge from 92. The Dastanian architecture was only familiar to Skrall and Nyx, although Hybros had seen less-ancient ruins of Nu Mercution and Zoot's Temple before. Same with the whole chaos and Wren thing. Hybros was the only one familiar with Zylstra, but Nyx knew the Blue Assassins and I think one of the other PCs knew about the Imperial Order before. Ellaria was the only one familiar with the witch who induced the visions. Also, Hewyrt is Crimson Crown but Hybros doesn't know that, so their relationship was very interesting to me.

As for the bits pertaining mainly to Hybros, I really liked that you included Guffy, Zylstra, Assassins, and of course the story of his people. I was really surprised and glad that the Hybros/Nyx sidequest pertained to Hybros' vision all that time ago in your very first quest (#7: The Arena). That part must have been my favorite. I had to go back and dig through the pages of that quest to find the post (linked to once in the sidequest and once in the public 107 thread), but boy was it nostalgic. That was the first real roleplaying moment that I did for Hybros, and to see it referenced to 100 quests later was a great feeling. For all my complaining about imprisoning PCs in The Arena for a month and removing them from the game, that moment probably would never have happened if it weren't for that.

The other part about the quest that I liked was the side-quest PMs. I'm not usually a fan of PM sidequests but these served to deliver a very large part of the narrative and really was great for PC roleplaying, and I couldn't see it being done in any other way. For those of you who were watching and didn't realize, each PC was paired with another PC on a sidequest (along with some NPCs), and then with a different PC in another sidequest so that two sidequests were happening simultaneously for each PC. The in-story explanation is that each character was experiencing two or three realities at once from the witch's magic. The sidequests were Nyx & Skrall, Skrall & Ellaria, Ellaria & Hybros, and Hybros & Nyx. I thought these sidequests were great for roleplaying by all characters. I, too, would like to see the other ones posted when you get the chance, Zeph.

I liked the bit with Zylstra and Posco. It was a cool idea to have CallMePie to guest QM (thanks for hosting by the way!). Killing Posco was... interesting. I think the decision was in-character for Hybros. And along the same lines as the story of this quest supported Zepher's storyline, it also supported and developed Pie's as well.

My main criticism for this quest was that at many points, it felt very slow and/or too open-ended. There were points, like in the library, that seemed like they had no direction at all. I was a little disappointed that Skrall and Ellaria didn't get books, but at the same time asking the players to provide some the narrative (while potentially cool for roleplaying) might have been too open-ended and not directed enough for the quest to move forward and be entertaining. I'm not really sure how to expand upon that thought, but maybe you're right in your own criticism that perhaps this story didn't translate well into a quest. Besides being slow, there were also times when the narrative wasn't on par with everything else you've done - sometimes it just felt empty or awkward. For example the Hybros-Nyx sidequest: obviously there was a lot to be revealed through the Paladin's dialog, but because of the fact that it had to be prompted by a PC's words and actions, it felt forced and we weren't really sure how to have our characters respond. At least that's how I felt.

One other factor that might have caused the slowness was the absence of players and sometimes the QM. I know just as well as anyone that life can get really busy, and it seemed like all five of us were, at some point or another throughout the quest, too busy to really contribute meaningfully. For my own part in that I apologize, and for the sum of all of our absences it just seems unfortunate that they had to happen all at once.

That being said, I couldn't have asked for a better party for this quest. Nyx and Hybros already have a close relationship, I feel, and Hybros was already acquainted with Ellaria (their relationship really grew in this quest, IMO). Skrall was the only one Hybros hadn't met until right before the quest started, but it seems like they already established something interesting between themselves. I also liked the relationships between Nyx and Skrall, and Nyx and Ellaria. For the former, the two went to hell and back together on 53, and for the former Nyx is kind of a big sister to Ellaria. And all three of them share the same frustration from Strivvi. And again, each PC's individual experiences meant familiarity with different events in this quest, which was cool.

One more random note: I liked the fact that no loot was included in the last battle, but that we got a full level of experience instead.

And other than that, I don't have much to say except maybe that I would be interested in what other people thought, about the quest and Hybros' progress as a character so far. 107 made some big revelations about him, but I don't have any perspective on how confusing or realistic his character is.

Thank you once again for hosting, Zepher!

[The Legonater]

For those of you who were watching and didn't realize, each PC was paired with another PC on a sidequest (along with some NPCs), and then with a different PC in another sidequest so that two sidequests were happening simultaneously for each PC. The in-story explanation is that each character was experiencing two or three realities at once from the witch's magic. The sidequests were Nyx & Skrall, Skrall & Ellaria, Ellaria & Hybros, and Hybros & Nyx.

That sounds really cool. Can't wait to see the side-quests go up!

[Zepher]

Side quests will go up later in the week, unfortunately - I have a massive amount of homework at the beginning of the week.

I think you make a lot of good points, JimBee! I actually like more ponderous quests over all, but I'm still trying to make them work. Letting characters breath and talk to each other for a while is something I think is incredibly important, and is something I think quests would benefit even more from. I just don't think I've gotten it down pat yet, but it's something I think could be really fantastic if I learn how to do it properly. It will slow down quests, but hopefully I will find a way to make it feel like it's not slow. I will absolutely respond to everything else when I post all my thoughts, but that's something I really wanted to comment on now because its something I'm both extremely proud to implement but still working on executing.

EDIT: Also, just a note, Heweyrt is not of the Crimson Crown.

[Waterbrick Down]

107 did seem a little long, but not too draggy and I actually enjoyed the layed back feel. Granted with the vacations everyone was on, it didn't necessarily help keep an even flow, but I think we all were prepared for that going in. Story wise, I haven't kept up with the Guffington and Zylstra story-lines so things were pretty brand new to Skrall, which I guessed added to his genuine ignorance, but also kept me from being super invested. I'm always glad to quest with Pandora and Sandy, their characters and the relationships they have with other heroes are so established that it's easy to pick up where things once left off so that was a great feeling. I've been meaning to have Skrall quest with Hybros one of these days, so I'm excited it finally happened and am pleased with the results of the quest, they aren't super buddy-buddy, but they aren't mere acquaintances either. More on the story, I have to agree with JimB in that it felt a little too open ended, the library demonstrated this the most, it was a huge RP opportunity and I'm glad you included it, Zepher, for JimB and Nyx's sake, but he's right in that there wasn't much incentive for either Ellaria or Skrall to RP as neither had anything to connect them to the library's contents. They were glad to be of help to the other group, but they were mainly functioning as NPC's at that point. Which brings me to another point, NPC's, I'm generally a big fan of your NPC's Zepher, but I could determine the use of Minoid or Deborah? Aside from being extra bodies to use in battles, their personalities were pretty slim and their inclusion struck me as unecessary. I understand Hewyrt needed some muscle to back him up, but why wouldn't he be fine with the heroes, why not just hire a temporary body guard and dismiss them at the tunnel? Minoid 2, fits from a story perspective i.e. the mining and such, but after that he didn't really serve much development purpose. Battle wise, things weren't too tough nor too easy, so I don't have too much to comment about on them. Skrall can be hard to balance for with the whopping amount of damage he deals out, so I'm glad he was able to kill stuff easily in some situations and have some more difficulty in others. Side quests; can't say I was a big fan of them. I get that they were supposed to be showing us each aspects of Eubric's history, but they ended very abruptly and made me as a player wonder what was the point aside from furthering an Out-of-Character story-line. Skrall has no idea what he saw and feels pretty jolted by them and as a player I can't really give him any closure aside from either dismissal of what he saw or insanity. Maybe it's my story-telling style and I'm just not a fan of messing with the space-time continuum and all that in a "high-fantasy" genre game.

Closing up with the good stuff, I liked seeing a quest centralized around one hero and I don't think Hybros stole the spot-light too much and resigned the rest of us to the background. I liked the addition of Hewyrt and thought it added another layer to his developing character. The QM-sub of CMP, was great and it's always neat to see certain NPC's played by their original creators. The story you told was good, needs a little work on incorporating the heroes to tell the story as opposed to forcing the heroes to tell the story, but still a good one none the less. Battle were balanced and the loot was appropriate. Thanks for including me and it was fun playing with all of you as well, JimB, Sandy, and Pandora!