Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Flipz]

On 9/15/2018 at 8:28 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

The point is that a rule shouldn't require exploitation in order to win. There have been very few times in this quest in which any characters have been in danger, yet this whole battle has everyone worried that things are too tough and they need to look for loopholes and exploitation. I care about all or your characters, do you think I'm really intentionally sitting here trying to figure out ways to kill them all? I despise the total GM vs Players concept which is why I've never enjoyed the battle aspect of this game and have tried to telegraph when a fights mechanics are meant to be very difficult and its OK to not fight at this given time.

See, I 100% agree with that first statement but 100% disagree with the second.  We've discussed how things look very different from the QM's perspective compared to the Heroes' on the ground, and I think this is another one of those times; just because the odds are mathematically in the Heroes' favor for any given roll, the severity of failure means we're a lot more emotionally sensitive to risk and danger down on the ground, particularly in the final Quest with no more room to save characters we love (ours or others') if we lose them now.  (It...also doesn't help that some characters seem to have abysmal luck, seeming to utterly defy actual mathematical probability, and that's bitten a lot of us in the rear before.)

As far as the telegraphing, maybe it's a consequence of not having played in one of your Quests before, but I definitely haven't been able to properly interpret the various cues you've been giving.  Whether that's because a lack of experience with you specifically or just having been away from Heroica for a long time overall, either way it's a level of communication that's gone completely over my head (when I haven't misunderstood them entirely), so that's definitely been something that's in play at least for me.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 8:28 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

Expectations are a two way street, imagine being in my shoes of having to figure out how to make this last quest memorable. How to make it so that isn't a cake walk that everyone thought was pandering. How to make it "epic" but not have the characters feel helpless or useless. I know you're not angry and I hope you know that I'm not as well, just frustrated about what everyone wants. It's like directing the next Avengers movie, you know everyone wants a satisfying conclusion, but you're not quite sure how to get there and make everyone happy and you know that if you screw it up you'll be completely ruining something everyone's enjoyed for the last handful of years. While I do have a say in how I'd like Heroica to finish, there's 20 something more people who combined deserve more than that. 

Understandable for sure, though the fear of pandering is a bit less so for me.  Back in the day, I definitely worried a lot more about specific players and/or Heroes getting "pandered to", but over time I've mellowed on it a lot and realized that catering a campaign to the specific PCs isn't so much a matter of pandering, but rather a matter of engagement.  If I hadn't been "pandered to" by Zepher and Doc and Pie and Sandy and Endgame back in the day, Arthur would be a much more boring character with much less interesting stories behind him, and the same holds true for a lot of the PCs in the game--and, at the risk of seeming immodest, I think we in turn made the Quests we participated in more interesting by working to engage with them.  Yes, it's a matter of personal style to be sure, but I'm definitely a lot less inclined to treat "pandering" complaints seriously compared to other concerns, and given how much work you've clearly poured into this Quest and others, I doubt anyone else here would consider a criticism of "pandering" against you seriously. 

 

On 9/15/2018 at 11:49 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

Some further thoughts now that I've got my own rant out of my system. I guess I'm not looking for either a New Hope (victory by exploitation) or Rogue One (victory by sacrifice), I'm looking for victory through growth. Victory achieved by working together and utilizing the skills that each of the characters have gained over the years, not by deploying a McaGuffin or act of Deus Ex Machina, but the simple fact that lv 1 heroes could never have hoped to face off against this challenge and expected to survive. An ending that shows just how far everyone has come from the moment they walked through the doors of Heroica. It's the fact that Benji two rounds ago just dealt 1400 damage to all enemies, when he could only manage 10 damage when he first started. It's the fact that Arthur, Hoke, and Pretzel, can completely tank any hit except from one of the enemies and only one of them started this game with a shield. It's the fact that Germ has managed to steal some of the enemies most vital equipment in this quest. You've all grown and that's what I want to highlight and showcase. It's the final scene of the first Avengers movie or when the Defenders finally get together after all of their seasons collide, it's a bunch of people who have become heroes throughout all of their history and are now showing why they deserve that title.

All right, that's something I can definitely comprehend and work with, thanks.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 5:55 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

Hmm...but one piece of good advice I got while I was trying to write my first quest was, "Don't tell (a pre-conceived narrative), set out a structure and react to how the players react." Don't try and force people to follow a strict story-line."

I do hear what you're saying, though, about it being a "shared experience".

 

One thing I've been kind of annoyed about is how the higher-level heroes are kind of acting like battle rounds don't exist for this fight. 

From my perspective, we're on the ground. We were left there because all of the rest of the party assumed that the battle would go traditionally. WBD threw us all a massive curveball by having the Founders walk out unexpectedly.

It's our choice what we do - do we run? Or do we make a heroic last stand?

But that's not how people are playing it. You have multiple high-level heroes saying "He leaps down from the wall, and then gives his advice about what to do next, and politely addressed the Founders like the battle hasn't even started.". But that's not how it works. By the timeline, the timeline we've always used for battles, all of these people are still crossing the field towards us. The battle has already started - or not - a full round before anyone arrives. But everyone's acting like they're on the scene at the start of the battle. And they're not.

It was at this point that I realized that, since the Outer Wall rounds get run first, you could argue that they do arrive before our battle starts...but no. These events are happening simultaneously. By the time you've arrived to give advice, we've already had to take action. We've already acted, by the time you arrive. The battle has already started - or not - before you get there to tell us to retreat.

I'm not asking you to not give us advice about how to play, certainly. Given the number of attack proposals I've given out, that would be ridiculous. Feel free to shout all the advice across the field you want, like how Lind is presumably shouting his requests for people on the Walls to take actions.

But I would appreciate it if people would play things in order. This battle wasn't standard, it was unexpected. We play things differently in this battle - by the timeline* - because it's different, it's a different situation.

 

*Normally, people ignore the battle timeline as is convenient. But it's gotten kind of ridiculous at this point, since several players are acting like it doesn't even exist. I get that your standard method would be to try and be diplomatic about things. But you're not on the scene. We are on the scene. And it's not a standard scenario, so standard methods may not work as well - and when they blatantly disagree with the timeline, they really don't work from an RP standpoint!

 

(Apologies if I'm coming off as angry, I'm really not trying to. I'm just trying to take advantage of a cool, unexpected plot twist for the RP - and it kind of feels like some people are trying to bend it back into "normal," "expected," territory, rather than have fun letting it ride out and see where it could go.)

14 hours ago, Palathadric said:

I'm not sure I agree. While I'm grateful to WBD for putting so much into this battle. These are the founders of Heroica we are debating with (even if they are just Pixie dust versions of them). If we don't talk to them now, then when are we going to get a chance to talk to them? If it's when they're already beaten, then it's a very different scenario and doesn't have the same tension. While just getting into the battle is great, I don't think most of us play this game to be able to say I attack so-and-so from the Front Row, etc.

Definitely agree with Pala here.  Heroica has always leaned hard into "Talking is a Free Action", throughout the entirety of its history, even in large, expansive battles.  We've never respected any kind of Battle Order-based timeline for dialogue before, why should we start now?  If the different battle sections were meant to be completely separated the way you're describing, where people in other sections are isolated from the others even beyond attacks' area-of-effect, we would have been split into separate topics again or something similar.

Also?  I...really don't like the implication that your vision of how the battle is being roleplayed is more important or definitive than the rest of ours.  I understand your concern, that's fair and it's fair to bring it up.  But that doesn't mean you can just tell the rest of us how to act, you know?  There's a difference between raising a concern and dictating how the rest of us "should be" playing.

[Waterbrick Down]

1 hour ago, Flipz said:

See, I 100% agree with that first statement but 100% disagree with the second.  We've discussed how things look very different from the QM's perspective compared to the Heroes' on the ground, and I think this is another one of those times; just because the odds are mathematically in the Heroes' favor for any given roll, the severity of failure means we're a lot more emotionally sensitive to risk and danger down on the ground, particularly in the final Quest with no more room to save characters we love (ours or others') if we lose them now.  (It...also doesn't help that some characters seem to have abysmal luck, seeming to utterly defy actual mathematical probability, and that's bitten a lot of us in the rear before.)

As far as the telegraphing, maybe it's a consequence of not having played in one of your Quests before, but I definitely haven't been able to properly interpret the various cues you've been giving.  Whether that's because a lack of experience with you specifically or just having been away from Heroica for a long time overall, either way it's a level of communication that's gone completely over my head (when I haven't misunderstood them entirely), so that's definitely been something that's in play at least for me.

And that's always the tricky part and when writing a quest for 20 people, there's going to be differing levels of communication and I need to be contingent that some folks need an NPC to straight up say "Don't fight A" or "we can take B".

1 hour ago, Flipz said:

Understandable for sure, though the fear of pandering is a bit less so for me.  Back in the day, I definitely worried a lot more about specific players and/or Heroes getting "pandered to", but over time I've mellowed on it a lot and realized that catering a campaign to the specific PCs isn't so much a matter of pandering, but rather a matter of engagement.  If I hadn't been "pandered to" by Zepher and Doc and Pie and Sandy and Endgame back in the day, Arthur would be a much more boring character with much less interesting stories behind him, and the same holds true for a lot of the PCs in the game--and, at the risk of seeming immodest, I think we in turn made the Quests we participated in more interesting by working to engage with them.  Yes, it's a matter of personal style to be sure, but I'm definitely a lot less inclined to treat "pandering" complaints seriously compared to other concerns, and given how much work you've clearly poured into this Quest and others, I doubt anyone else here would consider a criticism of "pandering" against you seriously. 

Pandering might not be the best term, easy/unearned is more what I'm getting at. We enjoy heroic stories not because the protagonists have everything handed to them, but because they persevere through adversity and make do with the hand they are dealt.

On 9/15/2018 at 8:13 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

Long Post

16 hours ago, Palathadric said:

I'm not sure I agree. While I'm grateful to WBD for putting so much into this battle. These are the founders of Heroica we are debating with (even if they are just Pixie dust versions of them). If we don't talk to them now, then when are we going to get a chance to talk to them? If it's when they're already beaten, then it's a very different scenario and doesn't have the same tension. While just getting into the battle is great, I don't think most of us play this game to be able to say I attack so-and-so from the Front Row, etc.

1 hour ago, Flipz said:

Definitely agree with Pala here.  Heroica has always leaned hard into "Talking is a Free Action", throughout the entirety of its history, even in large, expansive battles.  We've never respected any kind of Battle Order-based timeline for dialogue before, why should we start now?  If the different battle sections were meant to be completely separated the way you're describing, where people in other sections are isolated from the others even beyond attacks' area-of-effect, we would have been split into separate topics again or something similar.

Also?  I...really don't like the implication that your vision of how the battle is being roleplayed is more important or definitive than the rest of ours.  I understand your concern, that's fair and it's fair to bring it up.  But that doesn't mean you can just tell the rest of us how to act, you know?  There's a difference between raising a concern and dictating how the rest of us "should be" playing.

I appreciate your trying to go with the flow of the round Lind and get what you're trying to combat. Both Flipz and Pala also have valid points in that timing throughout this whole game has always been iffy. I'm OK with the conversations, sure it takes away from some of the visual of an ongoing battle, but the Founders are also engaging in the conversation. I could easily have them ignore any attempts at conversation and strictly roll the round as if talking had no effect, but given their current attitudes toward the situation, they weren't full on unreasonable quite yet. It is a tough balance though between respecting the situation and trying to communicate ones thoughts to the group given our format. At a normal live game these would be easy back and forths or side conversations and wouldn't really stick out so bad.

 

[Palathadric]

Yeah, the fact that a lot of us are in different time zones and are always on at different times makes it impossible for the game to just "flow," which is I think why the "talking is a free action" will basically need to stay, otherwise it would become dull having to always wait for others.

3 hours ago, Flipz said:

maybe it's a consequence of not having played in one of your Quests before

Are you serious? Wow. You've really missed out. Really! Actually, maybe later I'll look over the quests and see who has been hosting who the most, etc. Could be interesting.

I know Kintobor and Endgame have a thing.

[samurai-turtle]

57 minutes ago, Palathadric said:

I know Kintobor and Endgame have a thing.

Something I always wondered about that, did they planned it out (like in a PM) or it just naturally happen. 

@Flipz First off, are you female? Because I never figured on that, I just assumed 90% of everyone is male, like most people do. Secondly, it does come off you are complaining. And I am not totally sure why now, we won I say just move on. On a slightly different note I only been on one other WBD quest, and I still haven't figured out his "style" quite yet. 

3 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

And that's always the tricky part and when writing a quest for 20 people, there's going to be differing levels of communication and I need to be contingent that some folks need an NPC to straight up say "Don't fight A" or "we can take B".

In general it is hard to please 20 people, so some one is going to be annoyed. On a different point I might not of keep pushing the founders verbally if you hadn't said something (I believe it was here). And I think others might not of done it too if you hadn't mentioned. For the timing/space on this battle it was odd boss battle from the start, and I guess it didn't bother me. And for some odd reason I stayed on the boat, thinking I could just walk up to the edge and holler at the necessary person. If my thinking is wrong on that then I guess really don't know how to play this game. 

[Palathadric]

7 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

 

@Flipz First off, are you female? Because I never figured on that, I just assumed 90% of everyone is male, like most people do.  

 

I always just picture people like their characters. I don't think I"ll ever be able to see WBD as not a big, friendly ogre.

Even when you were talking about Asphalt and the hurricane, in the back of my mind I'm sort of thinking. "He's a big lad, he's fought through worse things before." 

[MysticModulus]

Ezeran is pretty straight forward to play here, he has become a man of action and he value his friends so he will go out with his guns blazing. It is the last quest, wall of dialogue is overdue for him. 

[Waterbrick Down]

7 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

 

@Flipz First off, are you female? Because I never figured on that, I just assumed 90% of everyone is male, like most people do. Secondly, it does come off you are complaining. And I am not totally sure why now, we won I say just move on. On a slightly different note I only been on one other WBD quest, and I still haven't figured out his "style" quite yet. 

Flipz identifies as female now, announcement was a few months ago.  If it makes you feel any better, I haven't quite figured out Germ's style either.  

[Zepher]

5 hours ago, Palathadric said:

 

I always just picture people like their characters. I don't think I"ll ever be able to see WBD as not a big, friendly ogre.

Even when you were talking about Asphalt and the hurricane, in the back of my mind I'm sort of thinking. "He's a big lad, he's fought through worse things before." 

I didn’t feel like engaging in whatever this debate was! But I will say that as a previous QM, QM gets final say on how the story goes! Sometimes people have the mind set of “oh the QM is being ‘rigid’ and not letting me do what I want,” without recognizing that demanding to be given infinite choices is equally as rigid (and worse story telling to boot). Anyway that’s what I felt like offering after skimming the last few pages.

Also Asphalt do hope you’re alright! Stay safe! 

[samurai-turtle]

4 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Flipz identifies as female now, announcement was a few months ago.

  If it makes you feel any better, I haven't quite figured out Germ's style either.  

I must of miss the announcement.  

I really don't think he has one, unless you are still talking about sexually.  He is basically straight. I just don't have him chasing the ladies like some players. That and he is not really sexually attractive to most humans. 

And while I am at it, @Endgame & @Kintobor what is the deal with your characters? Do you PM each other and come up with some sort of love story. Or you two just came up with it on the fly. 

[Kintobor]

Just now, samurai-turtle said:

And while I am at it, @Endgame & @Kintobor what is the deal with your characters? Do you PM each other and come up with some sort of love story. Or you two just came up with it on the fly. 

Ho boy. 

We mainly came up with it on the fly, but me and Endgame did PM each other a lot over what we thought was appropriate for the characters in terms of motivations and we did RP some scenes that did get posted in the hall. Ultimately a lot of it was on the fly RP between the two of us. When it came to Masson being on quests, it was strictly on the fly, but when it wasn't on a quest we did do some back and forth PMs about what we thought the two would be up to, including the proposal, the wedding, and a few other scene which I might drag out after all this is over. 

[samurai-turtle]

5 hours ago, Palathadric said:

 

I always just picture people like their characters. I don't think I"ll ever be able to see WBD as not a big, friendly ogre.

Even when you were talking about Asphalt and the hurricane, in the back of my mind I'm sort of thinking. "He's a big lad, he's fought through worse things before." 

 

 

Ok, as I re-read that I wonder what are we supposed to imagine you as a old man or a young boy?    

Plus, Germ is how I kinda want to look like. (Being a "fat" mind age man doesn't help me. ) I put it in this analogy, their is a LEGO Darth Vader and a movie Darth Vader. I see Germ in a similar way.  (Hey, the best time to use this.) 

6 minutes ago, Kintobor said:

Ho boy. 

We mainly came up with it on the fly, but me and Endgame did PM each other a lot over what we thought was appropriate for the characters in terms of motivations and we did RP some scenes that did get posted in the hall. Ultimately a lot of it was on the fly RP between the two of us. When it came to Masson being on quests, it was strictly on the fly, but when it wasn't on a quest we did do some back and forth PMs about what we thought the two would be up to, including the proposal, the wedding, and a few other scene which I might drag out after all this is over. 

Thanks for the answer! It was something I always wondered about.  

[KotZ]

5 hours ago, Palathadric said:

 

I always just picture people like their characters. I don't think I"ll ever be able to see WBD as not a big, friendly ogre.

Even when you were talking about Asphalt and the hurricane, in the back of my mind I'm sort of thinking. "He's a big lad, he's fought through worse things before." 

I still alternate between you looking like Monk and also like Petaldan. And I only see Hinkley as Fabuland characters.

But I assure everyone, @Capt.JohnPaul looks exactly like Alexandre and Leufwein.

[Waterbrick Down]

7 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

I really don't think he has one, unless you are still talking about sexually.  He is basically straight. I just don't have him chasing the ladies like some players. That and he is not really sexually attractive to most humans. 

I guess I've never quite gotten his agenda, he's obviously from a different plane, but unlike characters like Hybros or Kheyli, I'm not sure what his driving influences or goals are. 

6 hours ago, KotZ said:

I still alternate between you looking like Monk and also like Petaldan. And I only see Hinkley as Fabuland characters.

But I assure everyone, @Capt.JohnPaul looks exactly like Alexandre and Leufwein.

Bald and always has a blank smile? Kinda creepy. 

[Flipz]

49 minutes ago, MysticModulus said:

 

Ezeran interrupts his channeling and crosses his arms at his chest. He does not look happy.

"Are you serious? We've been telling you about the demonic forces at play here for this entire duration and you show the cunning and resilience of a wet paper swan?" 

This may be my new favorite quote of the game. xD

22 hours ago, Palathadric said:

Yeah, the fact that a lot of us are in different time zones and are always on at different times makes it impossible for the game to just "flow," which is I think why the "talking is a free action" will basically need to stay, otherwise it would become dull having to always wait for others.

Are you serious? Wow. You've really missed out. Really! Actually, maybe later I'll look over the quests and see who has been hosting who the most, etc. Could be interesting.

I know Kintobor and Endgame have a thing.

Hoo boy, if Kinto and Endgame have a thing, Endgame and I definitely have one as well, considering all the ridiculous things he let me tie into his plots. xD

20 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

@Flipz First off, are you female? Because I never figured on that, I just assumed 90% of everyone is male, like most people do. Secondly, it does come off you are complaining. And I am not totally sure why now, we won I say just move on.

Yes, I'm trans, I use she/her pronouns but am okay with they/them pronouns if people are more comfortable with that.

I get where you're coming from, but personally I don't agree with the argument "we won, move on"; it's by having discussions that a community grows and improves and learns how to not make the same mistakes again later on.  In some cases, the reasons why someone's argument is right or wrong can be just as important as whether it's right or wrong in the first place...but that's just my two cents.

8 hours ago, Kintobor said:

Ho boy. 

We mainly came up with it on the fly, but me and Endgame did PM each other a lot over what we thought was appropriate for the characters in terms of motivations and we did RP some scenes that did get posted in the hall. Ultimately a lot of it was on the fly RP between the two of us. When it came to Masson being on quests, it was strictly on the fly, but when it wasn't on a quest we did do some back and forth PMs about what we thought the two would be up to, including the proposal, the wedding, and a few other scene which I might drag out after all this is over. 

...speaking of RP, did Dyric ever deliver that letter Arthur gave him to deliver to Karie back at Ziegfried Manor?

[Palathadric]

48 minutes ago, Flipz said:

Hoo boy, if Kinto and Endgame have a thing, Endgame and I definitely have one as well, considering all the ridiculous things he let me tie into his plots. xD

My main point was the amount of times a QM has hosted a player, and I really didn't think you were on so many Endgame quests, but I guess I could be wrong. Kinto/Endgame just seemed so much stronger. You were more of a side chick.

[MysticModulus]

Yeah @Flipz he was angry. 

[Kintobor]

On September 17, 2018 at 4:04 AM, Palathadric said:

I know Kintobor and Endgame have a thing.

Guilty as charged. 

2 hours ago, Flipz said:

...speaking of RP, did Dyric ever deliver that letter Arthur gave him to deliver to Karie back at Ziegfried Manor?

There was a letter? I never got a letter. Karie would've known if she got a letter from Arthur. 

[KotZ]

8 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Bald and always has a blank smile? Kinda creepy. 

Blank smile most definitely.

[samurai-turtle]

9 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I guess I've never quite gotten his agenda, he's obviously from a different plane, but unlike characters like Hybros or Kheyli, I'm not sure what his driving influences or goals are. 

Oh, that what you are asking. Well his short term goals was to get back to a power level he was at before he joined Heroica. Is that what you want to do if you had the power stripped from you? I guess another problem I had with Germ is I built him up as a character even before I used him for this game. And not to be a big cheater I had to power him down. Because at the time I couldn't think of a better idea (that could be a problem of mine).  

[The Legonater]

9 hours ago, Flipz said:

...speaking of RP, did Dyric ever deliver that letter Arthur gave him to deliver to Karie back at Ziegfried Manor?

 

I could have sworn he said something...

On 7/3/2018 at 10:41 AM, The Legonater said:

For further proof, we were able to secure a necromancer from the Ziegrieds' - Arthur says hi, by the way - and broker a conversation with the soul of the original Golden Dragon.

1

...great work, there, Dyric.  

Of course, Eric still has something to pass to Dyric, as well. 

On 5/5/2016 at 9:00 PM, JimBee said:

Hybros grinned back. "Heh, right. Fishing. The story about the wings is a little long... but I have found others like me." He glanced at the questboard. "Such short time we always seem to have. I have been sitting around this hall for some time, if only you had returned a little sooner... Well, we will have to speak another time, heheh. I am off to fight demons." He turned to leave, but stopped short and procured his Opal and handed it to Eric. "If you ever see an assassin named Dyric, can you give this to him?"

2

 

[Palathadric]

4 hours ago, The Legonater said:

...great work, there, Dyric.  

  Truly smooth.  

[Waterbrick Down]

Does anyone know if Lady Luck has a canon name yet?

[MysticModulus]

7 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Does anyone know if Lady Luck has a canon name yet?

Except for "Wet paper swan"? 

[Lind Whisperer]

@Waterbrick Down Just curious - how close are we to the end of the quest?

@Everyone Else I'm sorry for any disruption I've caused.

[samurai-turtle]

14 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Does anyone know if Lady Luck has a canon name yet?

How about "Lady Duck"?