Nathanaël Kuipers's Concept Car

[Anio]

I confess that I think that some instructions do not worth the money people ask for.

I have seen some ridiculous MOCs on ebay where the price is very high and the MOC is very poor. :/ (you can reproduce the model with only one pic, but the MOC is so poor that you don't even want to reproduce it, no matter how easy it is )

So, only 15$ for a model such as the Concept Car is very affordable IMO. Actually, it even worths much more than 15$.

And selling such an awesome instruction for such a small amount of money, isn't it a proof that this instruction does not aim at making money ?

[TechnicJuan]

We agree on this one entirely.

But once again, why asking money for trying to satisfy your own desire and need for perfection?

This is a hobby of ours which should gave us the "Yes, I did it !" feeling every time when we create a HQ MOC or HQ instructions...15 bucks cant do that for me.

First off, what does money have to do with desire for perfection? There are plenty of crap instructions on EBAY right now that people are making a killing off of and no one even knows who in the heck the person selling the instructions even is. And secondly look at how many builders out there who are consistently copied and never even get recognition or even a thanks and you are complaining about someone charging a few dollars for instructions for a superbly great model? And thirdly I have news for you, this isn't a hobby for everyone, for some it is a business, even if it is a small one.

[Blakbird]

We agree on this one entirely.

But once again, why asking money for trying to satisfy your own desire and need for perfection?

This is a hobby of ours which should gave us the "Yes, I did it !" feeling every time when we create a HQ MOC or HQ instructions...15 bucks cant do that for me.

I don't think anyone is satisfying their own need for perfection, I think they are trying to make a project worthwhile. Building MOCs is fun. People do it because they enjoy it, and they do it for themselves. Sharing MOCs is fun too. It is fun to hear what comments your fellow fans might have on your creation, and may even be fun to take pictures of it. But what is the #1 comment you see written on any good MOC on Flickr, MOCpages, or Youtube? "Will you make instructions?", "Instructions please!", "plz, instctons, plz, thx", etc. And how many AFOLs answer this call by actually making instructions? Probably 1%. Why is this? Because making instructions is NOT fun. Making instructions is tedious and painful, especially for large Technic models which are very difficult to model in CAD. Believe me I know. Most AFOLs would much rather spend their time building than spend 100s of hours on instructions for nothing. So if someone is going to go to all that trouble not for themselves but just to answer the requests of others, it seems only reasonable that those people making the request should be willing to offer some nominal compensation. For these reasons, you are not going to see large numbers of high quality Technic instructions for free. There are a few very generous people out there doing it (including Jurgen Krooshoop and Designer Han), and I've made some instructions for free myself. But you won't see large numbers because it is unpleasant work. So if we as a community decide that charging for instructions is unacceptable, the result will simply be that there are hardly any instructions available. If, however, we decide to support fantastic MOCers and instructions makers with some reasonable fee when we like the product offered, then I predict we will see lots more people making instructions available in the community. In my opinion, this will help draw new people into the fold. Technic is especially difficult for newbies, and the more resources that are available to them, the more of them will get hooked the way we are. So I guess the question is: would you rather see a few instructions for free or lots of instructions for a small fee? I would choose the latter.

[DLuders]

I agree with Blakbird 100%. I'm buying a set of these PDF instructions, because I want to build it and appreciate the modular design.

If you don't want to pay for instructions, then buy a pizza with the $15 instead. However, I think that it is uncouth for anybody to be CRITICIZING those who offer Technic Building Instructions for a small fee.

[Taiphun]

Awesome.

Looks like these Supercars will be driving up prices of parts on BL..

Hehe.

Which kits will I need to cannibalize to build it?

[P4trickvH]

Great to see the instruction in HQ finnally available and yes the instructions are worth every peny if you like the design or want to rebuild it.

It's not exactly to my taste, but i would surely pay the 15 bucks if it was a model i really liked and wanted to rebuild it or see the modulair concept.

[Cwetqo]

Awesome.

Looks like these Supercars will be driving up prices of parts on BL..

Hehe.

Which kits will I need to cannibalize to build it?

8070 should do, with additional BL orders. There will be some problems though, like for example tires (currently just 9 available on BL) and wheelcaps (currently just 1 available on BL). Other option would be 8070 tires with 599 caps (expensive, but at least available), but I think those would look to small.

[Jim]

8070 should do, with additional BL orders. There will be some problems though, like for example tires (currently just 9 available on BL) and wheelcaps (currently just 1 available on BL). Other option would be 8070 tires with 599 caps (expensive, but at least available), but I think those would look to small.

(currently just 9 available on BL)

Make that 5! Sorry about that

You can use other tires with the same size (81.6):

http://www.bricklink...st.asp?q=81%2C6

Possibly these:

http://www.bricklink....asp?P=32197c01

And why bother with the wheel caps?! Just play around with different wheels and see which ones look nice.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Gekke Ted

[DLuders]

I successfully downloaded the 39.8-MB PDF building instructions, and can see the care taken by Joshua Delahunty. The graphics are very crisp, and I particularly like the annotations next to the Technic Liftarms to indicate their LENGTH (without having to count pinholes). There are also closeup details of crowded connections. The pictorial Parts List has the official TLG Part Number (for ease of ordering missing parts from Lego Direct). Well done!

I confirmed that Lego Direct does not have any more of the Concept Car's four 50965 "Wheel Covers 5 Spoke with Center Stud - 56mm D. - for Wheel 44772" (which were only offered in the 8653 Enzo Ferrari 1:10 set). Also known as TLG Part Number 4264301, a pair are shown in the first picture below and are "discontinued."

So, I'm electing to use another Wheel Cover for the Concept Car -- the 58088 "Wheel Cover 7 Spoke with Axle Hole - 56mm D. - for Wheel 44772". Shown in the second pair below, they look good. One will need Technic Axles to attach them to the wheels. The Ferrari wheel covers may not be appropriate for the generic "Concept Car" anyway, because the model is not that of a Ferrari....

Edited August 16, 2011 by DLuders

[Blakbird]

Awesome.

Looks like these Supercars will be driving up prices of parts on BL..

Indeed. I had 12 of the large rare tires on my Bricklink store and they all sold today to one buyer. It's unlikely someone actually needs 12 of these, so I bet these will be resold at a higher price. I guess I should have asked for more money....

If anyone wants the tires bad enough, I have 4 of the Nitro Muscle sets that I might be willing to part out if I could get a good price for the tires.

And here's a new picture I made due to inspiration:

Edited August 16, 2011 by Blakbird

[Nazgarot]

Did Nathanaël make an off road edition of this, reusing most of the components, or was that someone else?

I'm certain I've seen pics of it. If the instructions for that version also comes out, i'll buy both! If not i don't think I'll bother, even though it is a great car.

But anyways, great work Nathanaël!! And i do think the price of the instructions is just right!!

-ED-

[Silcantar]

Did Nathanaël make an off road edition of this, reusing most of the components, or was that someone else?

I'm certain I've seen pics of it. If the instructions for that version also comes out, i'll buy both! If not i don't think I'll bother, even though it is a great car.

But anyways, great work Nathanaël!! And i do think the price of the instructions is just right!!

-ED-

He did make an off-road version, which you can see in his Bricklink folder. It is a substantial modification. The chassis appears to be completely different, with permanent all-wheel drive and different suspension. It looks like the bodywork is actually the most similar part between the two models. They both share the same modular philosophy, though.

[Nazgarot]

It seems to reuse most of the modules with a slight modification, except form the suspention/steering modules that are all new and a new lower mid frame with center diff and axels to front and rear.

Gearbox, motor, main frame (slightly altered), doors, hood (slightly altered) seems to bee the same.

I would guess it would be possible to build this as a "B - modell" without needing to many extra parts.

Anybody know if he's made an instruction for this?

-ED-

EDIT: Added some pics

Edited August 17, 2011 by Nazgarot

[Milan]

TechnicJuan and Blakbird:

I built few MOCs in the past, some of them are pretty large and complex, and i am building few now, and for me it was never a tedious and painful to make numerous photos of partially built models, or even some (more or less) simplified LDraw files for possible future use and improvement. Actually i saw that as a part of MOCing.

I agree that there are few very generous people making free instructions, like you said, Jurgen and Han, I would also add:

Jennifer Clark and hers great DAT files, animations, diagrams and descriptions that took pretty much time, for all of her models, and they were complex, too, and free...example HERE.

Texbrick's presentation of his huge MOCs where he took photos as the building is progressing HERE.

Sariel has made some great instructions for some of his models for free HERE.

There are numerous of builders on BS who do the same with photos as texbrick.

If you have enjoyed building your MOC, and you think the MOC is great, be a gentleman and make the instructions for free, consider it as a finishing touch of your MOC building.

Making HQ instructions is not a valid reason to ask money for it. I know it takes time.

Jennifer Clark's AC-50 is at least equally complex as this concept car, and her files are free. She needed much time for that, too.

Maybe we have different views on this matter simply because we have different approach to this hobby, or as TechnicJuan informed me, business.

Blakbird, TechnicJuan, DLuders and Meatman...you are not a MOCers as far as I know, and in your point of view you might want HQ instructions more than i would want them.

I am a semi MOCer and for me it is enough just to see nice MOC as this concept car is, and few photos of partly destroyed axles , gearbox and chassis is all i want.

[DLuders]

Hey Milan, if you don't want to pay for Building Instructions, then DON'T BUY THEM. I can't believe that you're still criticizing people who want a small fee for making instructions! Did it ever occur to you that the dozens of manhours it takes to make them COULD HAVE BEEN USED for something else? They probably worked for less than $0.25 an hour, all in an effort to help the hobby.

You can take your elitist attitude somewhere else. 99% of the AFOLs appreciate the efforts of Nathanael Kuipers and Joshua Delahunty.

[TechnicJuan]

Milan, all of those people you listed are some of the best AFOL builders in the world, but think about this, How often do we see Instructions for models that were designed by someone that was actually a designer for TLC? NK has supplied plenty of high quality pictures and instructions in the past for everyone to use for free. I think he has gone well above and beyond what it takes to be a gentleman as you say.

[Jim]

Hey Milan, if you don't want to pay for Building Instructions, then DON'T BUY THEM. I can't believe that you're still criticizing people who want a small fee for making instructions! Did it ever occur to you that the dozens of manhours it takes to make them COULD HAVE BEEN USED for something else? They probably worked for less than $0.25 an hour, all in an effort to help the hobby.

You can take your elitist attitude somewhere else. 99% of the AFOLs appreciate the efforts of Nathanael Kuipers and Joshua Delahunty.

Amen to that!!

Milan, all of those people you listed are some of the best AFOL builders in the world, but think about this, How often do we see Instructions for models that were designed by someone that was actually a designer for TLC? NK has supplied plenty of high quality pictures and instructions in the past for everyone to use for free. I think he has gone well above and beyond what it takes to be a gentleman as you say.

Amen to that!!

I will definitely pay $15 to get these great instructions for a wonderful model!!

You know what......I just did!!

Edited August 17, 2011 by Gekke Ted

[SNIPE]

There may be a two or three position clutch instead of a center differential in the middle that changes between rear/front ,or 4WD.

[Blakbird]

I built few MOCs in the past, some of them are pretty large and complex, and i am building few now, and for me it was never a tedious and painful to make numerous photos of partially built models, or even some (more or less) simplified LDraw files for possible future use and improvement. Actually i saw that as a part of MOCing.

Taking photos is totally different than making professional instructions.

Jennifer Clark's AC-50 is at least equally complex as this concept car, and her files are free. She needed much time for that, too.

Making the CAD file is only the first step in making instructions.

Here's an idea. Before you can have an informed opinion on how much work it is to make professional instructions, you need to actually do it. So I recommend that you pick one of your largest MOCs (and I know you have a lot of good ones!), build an MLCAD file of it, use LPub to make instructions, then give it away for free. If you actually do all of this, then at least you will be in a good position to understand the work involved. If you have not done this, there is simply no way you can know how painful it is. It is interesting to note that among all of the people complaining about instructions not being free, none of those are the same people who have actually made instructions. Han, Jurgen, and Sariel give them away for free but seem to understand why not everyone does.

Milan, I would personally like to build your JCB-JS115 excavator and your Zil-F15 truck. I'm really looking forward to the instructions!

[CP5670]

I don't see anything wrong with charging for instructions, especially since there are people willing to pay for them. It does take a lot of effort to make instructions, and unlike building the actual model, the work tends to be more tedious than fun. I used to make ldraw files for my MOCs at one point (for my own purposes more than anything else, although I put them up online), but don't do it anymore as it became too time-consuming.

That being said, I wouldn't buy instructions for this particular model. It's good but very similar to a lot of other supercar MOCs out there, and doesn't really stand out from the pack to me. Unlike Nathanael's past models, it is not made up from only one or two sets either, and getting all the parts from Bricklink would take some work. I would be more interested if anyone was selling complete sets with all the parts.

[T_Tank]

I be leave these instructions took YEARS to make an to get them to the quality they are so to me paying a small fee is alright by me because hey the guy took a lot of time to make theses instructions so thumbs up to ya people to help contribute to the community!

[Erik Leppen]

You can take your elitist attitude somewhere else.

Could you please put down your tone here?

I believe Milan stating

Maybe we have different views on this matter simply because we have different approach to this hobby

shows he does not have "elitist attitude". Don't make him out for having a different view than you.

We may disagree on things and there may be two "sides" to the argument. But no one here is "elitist", OK?

I think the main concern the "free" advocates are having is that when releasing the instructions for free, they'd reach a (much?) larger audience. It is up to the creators to choose between earning some money for their hard work, or let their hard work be used by as many people as possible (as you can see, both choices sound very logical). There are valid arguments for both options. Whichever they choose, we will have to live with it.

[Meatman]

Well Erik, Milan outed 4 of us for not being MOCers and basically said that our opinions don't matter because of out lack of producing MOCs and that is the reason why we would prefer HQ instructions. Now that is just pure nonsense.

Milan is the one taking pokes here. And to tell you the truth, I think it is more of a jealousy issue than anything else.

I also remember Milan complaining over the selling of instructions that Blakbird did for Paul's Gallardo model. It is like a broken record here.

[Anio]

And here we go again...

It would be nice if a mod could split that tread and create a new one. Something like "MOC instructions : free or fees ?"

[4lord]

As soon i get my hands on instructions i will post my mail so i can send everyone a copy who dont want to pay for them or dont have the money.

If my acc get baned ill make a new one. Cheers