Technic Transition Talk

[Siegfried]

After some thought (and some PMs ) we've decided to experiment with the way the Technic forum is organised. It's all an experiment at the moment; if things don't work they'll go back how they were. The first planned change is to create a subforum for talk about Technic techniques, which I hope to start on next weekend. What else? A MOC forum is a possible idea, but... what do you guys think? I make no guarantee that the winning votes will result in action, but they will be used to help the staff evaluate the future of this forum and EB in general.

[legolijntje]

Maybe some contests. Almost every forum (even ldd forum) has contest. And I think there are enough people who want to participate

EDIT: I also got another idea; a Q&A subforum. There are so many topics whit a little question, and then one answer is enough.

Edited May 16, 2011 by legolijntje

[Ralph_S]

The main reason why I frequent the Technic Forum is that Model Team is a part of it. I'm not a Technic builder and don't really care about the reviews , MOCs and techniques. It's not my thing.

The category that many of my MOCs fit into best is Model Team. From the poll I can see that 'Take Away Model Team' is an option. This raises the obvious question of where you'd put it. I think there is something to be said for taking it out of the Technic forum, but if it gets lumped in with the other 'special themes' it would get even more lost among the clutter than it does in the Technic Forum.

Is it time to create a Model Team forum, perhaps, possibly combined with Creator?

Cheers,

Ralph

[legolijntje]

Mostly, model theme MOC's are just technic moc's whit a less technical look. So I think we should keep it here

[Siegfried]

EDIT: I also got another idea; a Q&A subforum. There are so many topics whit a little question, and then one answer is enough.

That's part of the idea of the Techniques forum; or have I got you wrong?

From the poll I can see that 'Take Away Model Team' is an option.

Sort of. I like things as they are, but I just wanted to know if I'm on the same page as the active members.

Is it time to create a Model Team forum, perhaps, possibly combined with Creator?

It wouldn't be enough. I've done the numbers before; it'd end up a dead forum.

[Ralph_S]

It wouldn't be enough. I've done the numbers before; it'd end up a dead forum.

I'm sure that if you add the numbers from Model and Creator the end result will be low, but these numbers don't tell you everything. Comments left in threads on model team creations that were frontpaged, and therefore didn't escape people's attention, suggest that quite a few people who might actually be interested in the sort of things Model Team builders make don't actually see them because they ordinarily never look in the Technic forum!

I think it's a general drawback to the arrangement of having sub-forums directly associated with themes. If there were, say, a vehicle forum, city builders and model team builders would find each other more frequently. I realise that such a change has other issues and is beyond the scope of this thread, but I do see certain things getting snowed under. 'Military', for instance, doesn't even have a corresponding LEGO theme and gets lumped in with the wholly unrelated 'Special Themes' like Collectible minifigs and Fabuland.

There are worse places for Model Team than the Technic forum, but I also know -once again from comments- that not all Technic builders appreciate Model Team creations because the technical functionality comes in second place after the looks and they see at as little different from Creator.

Cheers,

Ralph

[roamingstop]

Actually I see three different 'techniques'... within the Technics forum, and they can also all relate to each other.

First up is really Model Team, here the Technic pieces are generally used to create scale models, which have working parts, and accurate renditions, often a mix of system, technic etc. Ralph_S models are a case in point. I can see a need for MOC's and techniques.

Then there are older Technic style models - which can look cool, still have a combination of system, old technic and new studless construction, where the emphasis is on the gearing, controls etc. Once again MOCs can include simple examples (differential gear boxes, engines, etc) and techniques as well as larger scale models (some of the break down trucks with PF spring to mind). I would also include in here some system models which include elements of Technics; e.g. the Carousel.

Finally the newer studless construction system which emphasises open frame, studless construction and perhaps minimal techniques (log loader, etc)

However... there will always be an exception to the rule.

For note: I generally keep a bookmark tab of 'inspiration' - techniques and models which I want to use one day in my models.

Sometimes too much organisation stiffles innovation, and I would probably not see interesting models which are inspiring; but then threads which drop to the second page are quickly lost. So perhaps the thread index should show the last 20 or 30 threads with comments?

[Siegfried]

So perhaps the thread index should show the last 20 or 30 threads with comments?

You can set the board to do that if you want; I have my set to show 30 posts per page and you can sort forums.

I'm sure that if you add the numbers from Model and Creator the end result will be low, but these numbers don't tell you everything. Comments left in threads on model team creations that were frontpaged, and therefore didn't escape people's attention, suggest that quite a few people who might actually be interested in the sort of things Model Team builders make don't actually see them because they ordinarily never look in the Technic forum!

It is true... but by the same logic since Model Team MOCs are a rarity I can't see members regularly looking for them, regardless of what forum they were in.

'Military', for instance, doesn't even have a corresponding LEGO theme and gets lumped in with the wholly unrelated 'Special Themes' like Collectible minifigs and Fabuland.

Yeah. The staff have discussed this over and over, and we do struggle to divide the mess that's left into another forum. In total it's got less than most other forums so if we divide we're left with two messes rather than one. We did consider, for example, putting Military MOCs in "Action", but all things considered it doesn't fit in with other official LEGO themes.

Please don't get me wrong; I do agree with you that Model Team deserves more attention and that "Special" is a mess, but how to solve it I don't know. Creator sets for the most part don't get the attention of other themes, but perhaps the recent inclusion of mini-figs will change this...

Actually I see three different 'techniques'... within the Technics forum, and they can also all relate to each other.

I tend to agree.

[Ralph_S]

Yeah. The staff have discussed this over and over, and we do struggle to divide the mess that's left into another forum. In total it's got less than most other forums so if we divide we're left with two messes rather than one. We did consider, for example, putting Military MOCs in "Action", but all things considered it doesn't fit in with other official LEGO themes.

Please don't get me wrong; I do agree with you that Model Team deserves more attention and that "Special" is a mess, but how to solve it I don't know. Creator sets for the most part don't get the attention of other themes, but perhaps the recent inclusion of mini-figs will change this...

Fair enough. There is no quick fix.

Cheers,

Ralph

[Blakbird]

I read this forum pretty much every day, and I generally look at every topic with new content in it. The traffic is not particularly high, so for me dividing it into subforums would just slow down my browsing. If traffic were much higher, then that might be a different matter. Also keep in mind that if you divide it up into sections which are too specialized, inevitably some confused people will post in the wrong subforum which will either require more moderation or potentially topics being missed.

My vote is to leave it as it is. I definitely appreciated the last change which split off Bionicle though. There was a morass of Bionicle posts which didn't interest me at all and resulted in either a lot of work to find the Technic posts or a lot of things missed. I find the crossover between Technic, Mindstorms, and Model Team close enough that I want to see all of them.

Good thing I don't read "Star Wars" because I'd never keep up!

[Erik Leppen]

I tend to agree with Blakbird that the Technic forum in its current form has too little traffic to justify splitting it into subsections. I think right now it is good enough as it is now. You could split between studded and studless constructions but I don't think it would help very much. Also, why search for a "solution" if right now there's no problem

However what I do think could be improved is the fact that right now the themes seem to be very much separated from one another. The Dutch LUG for example has a specific board for "MOCs". This means all mocs by everyone, of all themes. This would mean Technic MOCs go into the MOCs forum and not in to the Technic forum. So if I want to see Technic MOCs I look into the MOCs forum. However because everything is together there, I sometimes stumble across MOCs from other themes that look great as well. If all themes come together I think more people would see each other's MOCs even if they're from different themes. I'm not sure this method would work for Eurobricks as it's pretty large but it might be worth a thought.

Edit: also the Dutch forums have a separate section for sets. Reviews are a whole different type of topic than questions or discussions about techniques. Those could more easily be separated because the border of what is and isn't a "review topic" is more clear, and because I think people would want to read reviews anyway, even if they're a bit more hidden from view. So I think, if anything could be split, then it's topics related to sets. In the first place reviews, but also questions like "my 8043 is not working". Adaptations to sets like "the ultimate 8043" are much more doubtful...

Edited May 16, 2011 by Erik Leppen

[phool]

I dont think the forum is broke, so as the saying goes...

Although it could use more topics started by person other than DLuders

[grepin]

Is it time to create a Model Team forum, perhaps, possibly combined with Creator?

I share your opinion, although for the opposite reason: I'm far more interested in Technic than in Model Team - and anything else, for that matter.

The problem is, as Siegfried noted, that Model Team may not be popular enough to have its own forum, even if combined with Creator... Since there's some affinity between MT and Technic, perhaps it could be placed in a sub-forum?

As for the sub-forums, my vote went to MOCs + Reviews, but after reading some posts I have the impression it might be a better idea to create separate indexes for those topics instead, if the moderators don't mind the extra work.

[vmln8r]

This is what I’d like:

Main forum: MOCs, set reviews and one pinned topic for upcoming sets – surely we don’t need a separate topic(s) for every upcoming set?

Sub-forum: techniques, Q&As and everything else.

I love Model Team, however for more appropriate exposure, perhaps it should be grouped with Creator and placed as a Town sub-forum.

Perhaps most importantly, a reminder of the appropriate etiquette and grammar to improve readability – although not specific to this forum, less bogus topics like this would be great.

[AndyC]

It's a tough call. Personally I do think Model Team has more in common with some of the larger Creator vehicle sets than Technic, so it does seem odd to have them split the way they currently are and there have been a few Model Team type MOCs posted where many of the comments have been along the lines of "why have you posted in Technic?" so I don't think I'm alone. However I can understand they'd probably never generate enough traffic to work as a stand alone forum and just lumping everything under 'Special' doesn't really solve it either.

Ideally Model Team, Architecture, the landmarks like Tower Bridge and the Modular Buildings would be in some sort of 'Advanced Modelling' forum, possibly with Creator. Though taking the Modulars out of the Town forum would seem like a very odd split these days as a great many people consider them as all part of the same thing.

[nychase]

I read this forum every few hours...

I don't see any reason at all to change the current setup as there is nowhere near enough traffic in MOC's, technic or strictly model team to not be able to glance through it all.

Lets think about his for a second...what really defines model team? To me, its just putting a nice facade on a frame (be it of other bricks, technic bricks, or technic beams). When people say that Model Team isn't relevant I have to ask...What would you call the most recent works of Sariel, or Grazis Tow truck or anything by Jennifer Clark. I would call it a technic marvel of engineering WITH the beautiful finishing touches that we all wished we took the time to do. I am not saying that non-brick based finishes (like Sheepos/crowkillers) can't be executed just as well, I am just saying that you can't spin-off model team without leaving some of the greatest MOC's torn between two homes.

My vote is for no change at all. There is neither too much or too little (thanks DLuders) to view on any given day. I enjoy the random reviews of both the old Model Team sets equally as much as the Technic of any age (though Technicopedia has a way of making any other Technic review jealous).

[Paul B Technic]

I agree with the posts above, I like things as they are and I think the current setup is good.

Paul

[bord4kop]

I agree to this as well.

No change necessary IMO

[Milan]

Only change that I would like to see is the one that Erik Leppen said.

I am too visitor of Dutch forum and there is very nicely board...MOCs.

As Erik said, there are all kind of mocs in there, and it is good posiblility you will find something really nice and inovative, not in your favorite theme, wihout even trying to!

When someone posts a MOC there, he/she can simple state in a description in which theme the moc belongs to.

[Lasse D]

When have you last seen a large Creator MOC? I can't say that I have seen anything but the rare occasional MOD.

When it comes to Model Team, I never see anything but MOCs with the occasional set review for nostalgia.

This is why I would prefer to have a separate MOC forum and a separate set review forum. This would move all Model Team threads into the MOC forum, and leave a 'Technic and Mindstorms' forum, where all threads would have a better synergy.

To sum it up:

MOCs forum: All MOCs from all themes go here. You could add the theme of your MOC to the title, such as: "Model Team: Ford Scorpio".

Set Reviews forum: All set reviews from all themes go here. An index would be nice here.

Technic & Mindstorms: As it is right now, but without Model Team, MOCs and set reviews.

[AndyC]

When have you last seen a large Creator MOC? I can't say that I have seen anything but the rare occasional MOD.

Arguably every MOC is a Creator MOC, since MOCing is the very essence of Creator. It's always going to be the odd-theme out though, as you can't really pigeonhole it like other themes; things like the recent 5770 Lighthouse or 5771 Hillside House are very Town-ish, 5893 Offroad Power more like Model Team and yet 4958 Monster Dino was pretty much a Technic set.

Spliting the forum into MOCs, Reviews and general discussion could work though.

[Siegfried]

Spliting the forum into MOCs, Reviews and general discussion could work though.

...just to get this out of the way, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. EB used to have a separate MOC forum, which some liked and some didn't. As a result some MOCs went in the MOC forum... others in the relevant theme. Partially for this reason we went for the MOCs-in-their theme solution.

I don't think a MOC forum would work. Many MOCs posted on EB are for the more popular themes and it would then be harder to find Technic MOCs... although DLuders would give them a run for their money.

[Alasdair Ryan]

...just to get this out of the way, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. EB used to have a separate MOC forum, which some liked and some didn't. As a result some MOCs went in the MOC forum... others in the relevant theme. Partially for this reason we went for the MOCs-in-their theme solution.

I don't think a MOC forum would work. Many MOCs posted on EB are for the more popular themes and it would then be harder to find Technic MOCs... although DLuders would give them a run for their money.

you can say that again

As long as there is a place to share my mocs and wind up some people thats all that maters to me.

[Erik Leppen]

Personally I do think Model Team has more in common with some of the larger Creator vehicle sets than Technic, so it does seem odd to have them split the way they currently are and there have been a few Model Team type MOCs posted where many of the comments have been along the lines of "why have you posted in Technic?" so I don't think I'm alone.

Actually there's a lot of truth in this.

Model team doesn't really seem Technic (apparently). I'd say Technic would mean functional models. Whether they're finished off with a Model Team style exterior or not, doesn't make them any less functional. However sometimes MOCs come across that are not functional models, but are purely aesthetical, more within the Sreator/Model Team spirit.

E.g. Grazi's tow truck is surely a Technic model.

Maybe non-functional models can be split from functional ones. Problem is that the line between them is not clearly defined. I mean, is a car whose wheels can roll a functional model? Is the recent Creator fire truck a functional model? It has a raising ladder and I believe it has steering.

All in all, while splitting can have advantages I'm not sure whether these outweigh the problems. E.g. Model Team fans won't want to miss on Grazi's truck because the exterior is of Model Team quality. Putting this MOC into any separate section would mean people who only visit the other section might miss out on it.

Edit: I do think there should be some sort of index for MOCs. Indexes don't really have drawbacks in my opinion, except them costing time to maintain.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Erik Leppen

[Lasse D]

...just to get this out of the way, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. EB used to have a separate MOC forum, which some liked and some didn't. As a result some MOCs went in the MOC forum... others in the relevant theme. Partially for this reason we went for the MOCs-in-their theme solution.

I don't think a MOC forum would work. Many MOCs posted on EB are for the more popular themes and it would then be harder to find Technic MOCs... although DLuders would give them a run for their money.

So the problem of a separate MOC forum is that some members don't follow the rules? I know a solution to that...

If you get too many MOC topics, then a natural split for a subforum could be "this MOC took me less than an hour to create", "I don't know how to resize pictures", "unfocused pictures are the best pictures", "My horse built this" or similar non-theme specific quantifiers.