Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Discussion

[LEGOman273]

You know I was under the impression that Mother Talzin was DEAD. Like killed by battle droids. Anybody want to tell me what I missed?

She turned into green mist when the droids entered the cave.

I'm not really sure what her life-status is, though.

[Brickadeer]

Frankly, that is how they ruined him.

Now, I haven't seen these episodes yet (or this season for that matter), but what I do know was Darth Maul was the Boba Fett of the Prequel Trilogy. He was dark, mysterious, and didn't say a whole lot. That was his charecter. With him now being a psycho-maniac who aparently won't shut up, his charecter is drastically changed, and thus ruined.

I do not agree he was "ruined" by TCW.

On the contrary, I was a bit underwhelmed by Maul in the PT. He was a Sith Lord. Dark, agressive, and he had a double bladed light sabre. He killed Qui-Gonn - and than he was killed by a Padawan in a way Sith Lords simply should not get killed. If Maul was ruined anywhere, it was at this point; at least, that's my opinion.

Well. Now we learn that Maul wasn't killed. Kenobi defeated him in the battle, yes, but he wasn't killed. When I first heard of Maul's return I found the idea, well, quite odd, but I have changed my mind and right now, I really, really like it, because now Maul has the chance to find an end that will more justice to the character he is and to his role as a Sith Lord.

[Oky]

The rebel bloggers review of the season finale and the season as a whole is up: LINK

A character who barely ever talked before of whom we saw nothing other than his combat skills is ruined? Why? Because he decided to speak more now? How do you people think you can reveal someone's entire personality with a few minutes of screen-time?

Coming from someone who has actually seen the episode, let me explain. No, it's not the mere fact that he talks now, it's because the content of what he says is poor. He comes across as an average cliche villain who rambles on and on about revenge and how unfairly he was treated. It just seems like a lazy effort by the writers and cheapens the character. Saying that Maul didn't have a character before just because he didn't have as much screen time as other characters is wrong. You clearly got the idea that he was the strong silent type, and that's what made him (and Boba Fett) cool. When people say he talks too much now, they mean that he says too many cliche things. At least that's what I think. I wouldn't expect him to "go back to being the old Maul", considering what he has gone through, just to be less ordinary.

It's always hard to find a way to please the fans, but this wasn't it.

[Fives]

All this discussion that Maul was "ruined" is quite strange. Sure, he was dark and mysterious and barely said a word, which to me makes for an almost nonexistent character. Don't get me wrong, I love Darth Maul, but theseepisodes didn't ruin him. They gave him personality. Before this we had no sort of insight on what Maul is like, and now that he doesn't work for Sidious allows him to be a free Sith, which is way more dangerous compared to what he was.

Also, the thing that most interested me was that he knew that the War was planned. It will be interesting to see if he ever meets Palpatine again, because his return is possibly one of the biggest threats ever to Sidious. If Maul reveals Sidious's identity, things will get really crazy. Then again, if Maul proclaims Palpatine to be Sidious, it could just be brushed aside as the yellings of a mad man. Either way,I'm interested and excited to see how the Jedi, the Republic, the Seperatists, and theSith will all react to his return. Sure, him returning is a big deal, but what he is capable of is what will really be game changing.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

I do not agree he was "ruined" by TCW.

On the contrary, I was a bit underwhelmed by Maul in the PT. He was a Sith Lord. Dark, agressive, and he had a double bladed light sabre. He killed Qui-Gonn - and than he was killed by a Padawan in a way Sith Lords simply should not get killed. If Maul was ruined anywhere, it was at this point; at least, that's my opinion.

Well. Now we learn that Maul wasn't killed. Kenobi defeated him in the battle, yes, but he wasn't killed. When I first heard of Maul's return I found the idea, well, quite odd, but I have changed my mind and right now, I really, really like it, because now Maul has the chance to find an end that will more justice to the character he is and to his role as a Sith Lord.

I agree with your views on Maul. The way he was defeated by Obi-Wan was pretty pathetic. Although he dueled with Qui-Gon longer than Obi-Wan, it was pretty clear that Maul's abilities were superior. Then one on one with Obi-Wan, Maul ended that duel quickly. As you stated, his character was ruined when he was defeated by Obi-Wan. I love that he has made a return in TCW and I really hope that this time his character is given justice if and when he is defeated.

[Jedi master Brick]

I agree with Oky, Maul was the silent cool guy like boba, not the rambling villi an you get in so many movies. Maul also made the same bloody mistake that so many villains have of taking so long to kill the good guy. Maul has become the cliche villain from a dodgy spy film know.

[Artanis I]

This TV show is not aimed at the sort of people who identify much with the strong silent type of mysterious character, they need dialogue to explain things. So Darth Maul was pretty mysterious in Episode I, but the story wasn't about him. And he did bugger all before getting cut in half making a noob mistake. Hardly any reason to form an awesome opinion about him. Just because he looked pretty cool...

I don't think Maul has been ruined, I was expecting it to be terrible, but so far it has turned out pretty good. I found episode 21 to be disappointing, pretty much nothing happened. Dooku, Grievous, Anakin, Ahsoka, Obi Wan, Yoda etc etc etc all showed up for a minute or so but did nothing. I think the 2 episodes should've been aired together. I was expecting a death in the final episode, either Maul, Opress, Talzin or Ventress. Instead of that, we got a massacred planet.

Very interesting to have the season end with all of them surviving, so many possibilities for next season.

BTW I've never liked Boba Fett, overrated nonsense.

[sok117]

I actually like the new Maul a lot better then in episode 1. In episode 1 he didn't do anything except kill Qui-gon Jinn. He didn't do anything to seem intimidating, he only "looked" intimidating, just like Boba Fett.

I'll admit, in Brothers he was a little out there, I was half and half. But now I think hes really cool.

[Oky]

This TV show is not aimed at the sort of people who identify much with the strong silent type of mysterious character, they need dialogue to explain things.

Exactly my point. Because the show is aimed at kids, they feel the need to dumb down the characters, which ends up ruining them.

So Darth Maul was pretty mysterious in Episode I, but the story wasn't about him.

Excuse me? The movie was titled "The Phantom Menace" which obviously referred to the Sith, and Darth Maul is one of those Sith, so the movie was very much about him.

I don't think Maul has been ruined, I was expecting it to be terrible, but so far it has turned out pretty good.

"Brothers" was pretty terrible if you ask me. I gotta admit that "Revenge" was better, and to say that Maul was "ruined" is a bit harsh, but it was not as good as it could have been, so it's still kinda true. But I guess it could have been worse.

[Artanis I]

Exactly my point. Because the show is aimed at kids, they feel the need to dumb down the characters, which ends up ruining them.

Excuse me? The movie was titled "The Phantom Menace" which obviously referred to the Sith, and Darth Maul is one of those Sith, so the movie was very much about him.

"Brothers" was pretty terrible if you ask me. I gotta admit that "Revenge" was better, and to say that Maul was "ruined" is a bit harsh, but it was not as good as it could have been, so it's still kinda true. But I guess it could have been worse.

1. For me, it doesn't ruin the character, instead it ruins the show if anything. But I can look past that stuff in a cartoon. Heck, I enjoy Friendship Is Magic.

2. Well, not really. Add up the minutes of the movie that have anything at all to do with him. He has hardly any screen time, 3 or 4 lines (less than the Terminator...) and most of it is near the end of the movie. It might be called what it is, but I would say that the 2 hours of movie is more about Naboo, Anakin, Qui Gon & pod racing than Darth Maul. Even Obi Wan takes a back seat in Episode I.

3. I agree with all that, except I didn't expect that realistically 22 could've turned out much better than it did in the end. I really enjoy the fights, and we had a decent 2v2 so that marks it up a bit for me. But it wasn't an awesome season finale or anything, just a fairly good episode.

[Oky]

1. For me, it doesn't ruin the character, instead it ruins the show if anything. But I can look past that stuff in a cartoon. Heck, I enjoy Friendship Is Magic.

What does FiM have to do with this? If anything, FiM is the opposite case: it turned something unlikable into something awesome.

2. Well, not really. Add up the minutes of the movie that have anything at all to do with him. He has hardly any screen time, 3 or 4 lines (less than the Terminator...) and most of it is near the end of the movie. It might be called what it is, but I would say that the 2 hours of movie is more about Naboo, Anakin, Qui Gon & pod racing than Darth Maul. Even Obi Wan takes a back seat in Episode I.

Fair enough. But what's wrong with Liam Neeson and podracing?

3. I agree with all that, except I didn't expect that realistically 22 could've turned out much better than it did in the end. I really enjoy the fights, and we had a decent 2v2 so that marks it up a bit for me. But it wasn't an awesome season finale or anything, just a fairly good episode.

Yeah, perhaps we just had too high expectations because this was the last episode of the season.

[Artanis I]

What does FiM have to do with this? If anything, FiM is the opposite case: it turned something unlikable into something awesome.

Fair enough. But what's wrong with Liam Neeson and podracing?

Well, it's an example of cartoon that I enjoy, while filtering out some of the delivery that's solely aimed at the target audience (eg writing a letter to the princess about what we learned about friendship today). And Liam Neeson is fine. Pod racing isn't necessarily bad, but it does go on for a bit... (when that time could've been used for Darth Maul explaining in more detail that he wants to get his revenge against the jedi... )

[Jedi master Brick]

I admit Maul was not as bad as I expected but he was still pretty bad. He should not of been bought back to life in the first place because if you are cut half and fall down a reactor shaft, you are dead. To defend the show people say its for children, why do they put in a political debate then? One thing to show the show is going down hill is Sky dropped showing it leavingno one to show it in the UK.

[Brickadeer]

1. Exactly my point. Because the show is aimed at kids, they feel the need to dumb down the characters, which ends up ruining them.

2. Excuse me? The movie was titled "The Phantom Menace" which obviously referred to the Sith, and Darth Maul is one of those Sith, so the movie was very much about him.

1. This claim is risen pretty often. If I look at the people, however, who participate in discussing about TCW, there are no kids, only adults. So maybe this is not just a curious incident, like a bunch of people acting childish by watching a TV show designed for kids. Maybe the target audience isn't defined that narrow as to "kids".

2. "The Phantom Menace" can be interpreted in at least two ways: the Trade Federation's attack on Naboo was an event created to lead to a situation to allow Palpatine to become Supreme Chancellor. The "phantom" aspect refers to the fact that the reasons of the attack, the motives of the Trade Federation remain unknown to the Jedi. The title "The Phantom Menace" works on two different levels: the concrete, observable actions, which is the Trade Federation's attack on Naboo, and the more abstract level of its underlying causes, Palpatine's rise to power. The attack is a phantom, an illusion to the degree that it misguides action, that it focusses the Jedi's attention to the Trade Federation and not to the underlying causes of the event.

And that is the point: apparantly, it's not so much about "the Sith", but only about one Sith, Sideous, while the other one simply doesn't play a major role. On the contrary, he was dispensable and exchangeable. In TPM, Maul clearly never was in the center of the story. In TCW, he is. In a series of episodes that is about the return of Darth Maul it is apparent that he no longer is dispensable and exchangeable, but has become a major actor and a center of the story. I think that's a difference.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Brickadeer

[General Magma]

I would like to remind the people who still think Darth Maul should be dead (and that his survival was unrealistic) of this.

~ General Magma

[CMP]

I would like to remind the people who still think Darth Maul should be dead (and that his survival was unrealistic) of this.

~ General Magma

His backstory was based on being kept alive, not a misguided resurrection of a formerly mysterious character.

[lightningtiger]

Very clever Lucas, at the time TPM comes out in 3D.....Maul reappears in CW, and looks like he's going to play a big part in the last season by the way he speaks to his brother in the closing scene of the final of S4.

I was shocked that Obi Wan and Ventress tag teaming to fight those two......I guess Lucas and crew like to surprise us now and again.

I was having a chat with a toy retailer that sells of course Lego, but also Star Wars collectables said to me about the up come sets based on the Old Republic.....he said they need something after CW is finish to keep the cash flowing for Lucas in his old age. Why would he say that straight after coming back from the Australian Toy Fair. (sorry, for the off-topic there)

[Brickadeer]

Very clever Lucas, at the time TPM comes out in 3D.....Maul reappears in CW, and looks like he's going to play a big part in the last season by the way he speaks to his brother in the closing scene of the final of S4.

I was shocked that Obi Wan and Ventress tag teaming to fight those two......I guess Lucas and crew like to surprise us now and again.

I was having a chat with a toy retailer that sells of course Lego, but also Star Wars collectables said to me about the up come sets based on the Old Republic.....he said they need something after CW is finish to keep the cash flowing for Lucas in his old age. Why would he say that straight after coming back from the Australian Toy Fair. (sorry, for the off-topic there)

I do not think that Lucas exactly *needs* the money. Everyone in the whole chain of production, marketing, transportation, trade, and all related branches has a genuine interest in making money by producing, selling etc. Star Wars toys, probably a higher interest than Lucas himself. We've seen sets from the EU previously, so it's not exactly new. However, TOR is a good opportunity to expand the amount of sets of this line.

Besides that, it is in no way clear that season 5 will be the last season. I think that Lucas and Filoni are aiming for six or seven seasons. However, I do not know if the relevant tv stations can be convinced to air the show that long.

[Jamit]

I think that Lucas and Filoni are aiming for six or seven seasons. However, I do not know if the relevant tv stations can be convinced to air the show that long.

I think seven seasons would be perfect. Spend season 5 on Maul and Oppress and wrap that story line up. Then spend season six building up to Revenge of the Sith. And for season 7 show the events of Revenge of the Sith from a Clone Wars point of view. That would be... amazing. Sadly, I don't for a second think that is going to happen. Instead I'm sure we are going to keep all this jumping around with no coherent storyline. That really annoys me and I'm concerned that the audience will continue to slowly leave and the show will end with very little to no satisfying closure and instead just a string of "cool, but ultimately meaningless" stories having been told. As a huge, invested fan of the series, that would be very disappointing.

On the topic of ratings, according to wiki and the details they provide, Season 3 averaged 1.84 million while Season 4 had 1.7 million. As far as I can tell, it is still the most watched show on Cartoon Network.

[LEGOman273]

Some people have been driven away, surely. However, there are many people who will continue watching, even if episode quality goes down.

[lightningtiger]

Besides that, it is in no way clear that season 5 will be the last season. I think that Lucas and Filoni are aiming for six or seven seasons. However, I do not know if the relevant tv stations can be convinced to air the show that long.

But originally there was only going to be about 100 episodes of CW......I hope this doesn't turn out like M.A.S.H. !

[Brickadeer]

But originally there was only going to be about 100 episodes of CW......I hope this doesn't turn out like M.A.S.H. !

If I remember correctly (I think it's on Wikipedia as well), Lucas said there will be at least 100 episodes. But I don't persist on being right about this

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Based on what I've read in interviews, I would expect The Clone Wars to go at least 7 seasons. There are too many stories left to be told. I really hope the show ends properly answering some of the most obvious questions we want answered. Specifically the fates of Ahsoka and Captain Rex.

Based on what I've read in interviews, I would expect The Clone Wars to go at least 7 seasons. There are too many stories left to be told. I really hope the show ends properly answering some of the most obvious questions we want answered. Specifically the fates of Ahsoka and Captain Rex.

On a separate note, I wonder if the way Hasbro has cut back on TCW line of toys will have an effect on the TCW cartoon. I really hope not as I believe once the Clone Wars stops airing on Cartoon Network, my son's interests will shift away from Star Wars.

[The Legonater]

Based on what I've read in interviews, I would expect The Clone Wars to go at least 7 seasons. There are too many stories left to be told. I really hope the show ends properly answering some of the most obvious questions we want answered. Specifically the fates of Ahsoka and Captain Rex.

I don't see why people are so curious on the fates of Rex and Ashoka. Sure, they're good charecters, but it's not like it's some big mystery as to where they are after TCW. Ashoka likely becomes a Knight and moves on to lead forces- perhaps even Rex- and likely gets shot during Order 66, and Rex simply is away on a mission. Unless one or both of them dies by then.

Edited March 20, 2012 by The Legonater

[LEGOman273]

Things we know:

1. Rex is NOT the leader of the 501^st in EP. III; Appo was.

2. Appo is currently a Sergent in the 501^th.

3. Rex would not take part in Operation: Knightfall.

4. Ahsoka does not appear in EP. III.

5. As long as they stay together, Ahsoka will not die in Order: 66 (at Rex's hands, anyway).

Questions:

1. As Obi-Wan went to Tatooine to protect Luke; who went to Alderaan to protect Leia?

2. Could Ahsoka have been sent to Alderaan?

3. If so, was she killed when Alderaan was destroyed?

4. Could Rex and Ahsoka appear in Star Wars: Underworld?