Are new Molds Expensive?

[Jareth]

I recall reading a few years ago that developing new pieces (molds) was one of the most expensive things that TLG did. I don't think that that is the case anymore. Remember the Yellow Castle set? It is still one of the best sets for it's time because it had a lot of 1 x 1 and 1 x 3 pieces and those were extremely rare at the time.

Now not only is TLG making lots of specialized parts for itself and for licensed sets, it's also making pieces specifically for the collectible minifig sets. The finla proof for me was when I bought some rock monster keychains to find that they had made a special mold for the body of the rock monster. There was a pillar inside the body to anchor the screw. If they are making a specialized mold just for a keychain that will only be in production for two years, it must be a lot cheaper to make a mold these days.

Is this a problem? ... well, yes and no.

I'm very happy to see the return of the pitchfork and the introduction of useful elements like tile 1x3, but on the other hand it can go too far the other way.

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44443&st=180

look at the megablocks picture....it's true horror is not that it's megablocks, it's that this set is at least half useless, <insert that tiresome argument> pieces....and it makes BURPs look good.

Anyway, my point is that if, God forbid, TLG continues making more and more new pieces, it will start to look more and more like this.

[Brickdoctor]

Yes. I remember Will (BrickArms) mentioned that each mold costs a few thousand dollars. TLG is making it cheaper by outsourcing production of specialized parts to China.

[RoryoCox]

I agree with Brickdoctor. I know that creating steel molds for anything is very expensive which is why companies take care in making sure the mold will last for millions of products. In the case of lego the mold may cost more for smaller elements e.g. Headgear, as they have much more detail than the average piece.

Hope that helps

[MinifigFreak2010]

i think it's more of a lego is letting quality slip and jacking the price up then an expense issue. like the handcuffs for the $10 police collection thing. They are definately cheaper made. I just finished assembling a misb set and the cuffs are to flexable and there was challenging to try and cuff a bad guy.

And if they'd cut back on the # of extra stuff in sets, they'd probably be able to cut a few pennys or so off each product and maybe even have it translate to having molds last a little longer. I don't know about ya'll, but I have no use for extra 1X1 studs or police visors or the little slopes in sets.

Currently, i'm in a love hate relationship w/ lego. I keep getting drawn back to their products, but I can't stand the price tags and the lack of girl stuff.

[Brickdoctor]

i think it's more of a lego is letting quality slip and jacking the price up then an expense issue. like the handcuffs for the $10 police collection thing. They are definately cheaper made. I just finished assembling a misb set and the cuffs are to flexable and there was challenging to try and cuff a bad guy.

The handcuffs are supposed to be flexible. If they weren't you'd have to get the arms in exactly the perfect position or you'd end up cracking/bending the element.

And if they'd cut back on the # of extra stuff in sets, they'd probably be able to cut a few pennys or so off each product and maybe even have it translate to having molds last a little longer. I don't know about ya'll, but I have no use for extra 1X1 studs or police visors or the little slopes in sets.

The extra bits are put in to round up the weight of the bag, making it easier for the QC machine to make sure the right amount of pieces are in the bag.

[MinifigFreak2010]

By flexable, I meant border line TO flexable for the product. I know it's supposed to be a LITTLE flexable, but it's feels cheaper then a pair or two I have that are a little older then these.

And unless Lego changed the reason, there's two reasons to do it. Weight boost and to have extra.

And yet the "QC" machine still blunders. For me, I got cursed w/ at least 3 or 4 sets out of about 6 I got from the last couple years ago up until about the 1 year ago mark with a missing piece(all were MISB with bags intact). So far in the last year, i've gotten some smaller plastic container sets and a police collection(10 bucks) and so far nothing critical missing as far as I know of. I did have a close call on the dumper but it turned out that after I sat down and poured the pieces out, one of the little bricks that looks like a deflated 1X1 brick went under my leg

Good thing I didn't attemt to get up b4 I looked for it.

[freeedrik]

Yes. I remember Will (BrickArms) mentioned that each mold costs a few thousand dollars. TLG is making it cheaper by outsourcing production of specialized parts to China.

I've heard from a LEGO employee that a new mold costs 125 000 sek ( about 18 000 dollars ) to produce

[davee123]

I believe we've been told that LEGO molds cost roughly between $10,000 and $100,000 USD. How expensive the mold is depends on:

1) How long is the mold supposed to last? For various parts, they're not expected to have long lifespans. The molded octopus body for the Atlantis sets, the mold for the Nurse's syringe, the head for Captain Jack Sparrow? Those are probably all "low quality" molds that we've been told about-- My guess is they'd only a few production runs and then be unusable.

2) How complex is the mold? Some molds are very simple, like a 1x1 tile. Others, like the chain element are IMMENSELY complex. They can consist of many parts, and require tons of design work in order to predict how the ABS will flow through the mold and cool. Simple molds will be cheaper, complex molds will be more expensive.

3) Where is the mold is produced? I expect Chinese molds cost less than ones produced elsewhere. The Chinese have a huge industry around injection-molded plastic toys, and I expect it's pretty cheap there. But in Europe, it's likely more expensive.

DaveE

[MinifigFreak2010]

As far as limited edition on the syringe, it doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't it be wiser to invest in a better mold? Even after the series syringes are done, they could use it to include in the doctor sets.

[davee123]

As far as limited edition on the syringe, it doesn't make much sense to me.

I believe that the molds they use in China are totally separate molds than the ones used in "main" sets. Certainly there are distinct differences on the arms, the bandanna, the pistol, the motorcycle helmet, the flippers, and the 2x2 tile. They've created a totally duplicate set of molds in China, which is supposedly MUCH cheaper. Hence, I'm guessing that it would make little sense to create all the Minifigure elements with high-quality expensive molds that can be used in other sets. I would expect that if we see another syringe element, it'll be using the Chinese mold.

Of course, I have no idea if the Chinese molds themselves are "lower" quality or not-- that's an assumption on my part, based on the fact that LEGO has told us repeatedly that higher quality molds last longer and are more expensive. I'm guessing that the reason that LEGO can afford to do this barrage of new parts in the Minifigure line is because they're of the cheap mold variety. All we really know that's confirmed lower quality in China is the plastic itself. But I'll bet the molds are lower quality too.

DaveE

[MinifigFreak2010]

I think SOME chinese molds may be a bit cheaper. The mold for the body parts seem to have sharper corners and overall just don't look quite right for a minifigure

And the accessories do seem to be made of a slighty cheaper plastic, but the quality of the accessories seems to be pretty good.

[Aanchir]

I believe that the molds they use in China are totally separate molds than the ones used in "main" sets. Certainly there are distinct differences on the arms, the bandanna, the pistol, the motorcycle helmet, the flippers, and the 2x2 tile. They've created a totally duplicate set of molds in China, which is supposedly MUCH cheaper. Hence, I'm guessing that it would make little sense to create all the Minifigure elements with high-quality expensive molds that can be used in other sets. I would expect that if we see another syringe element, it'll be using the Chinese mold.

Of course, I have no idea if the Chinese molds themselves are "lower" quality or not-- that's an assumption on my part, based on the fact that LEGO has told us repeatedly that higher quality molds last longer and are more expensive. I'm guessing that the reason that LEGO can afford to do this barrage of new parts in the Minifigure line is because they're of the cheap mold variety. All we really know that's confirmed lower quality in China is the plastic itself. But I'll bet the molds are lower quality too.

DaveE

Actually, although most of the collectible minifigure parts are different molds than those in mainstream sets, that's not universal. The wavy hair on the Hula Girl is the exact same mold as all other sets with that hair use. And the Space Alien's head is the same mold as Squidman's-- that one was easier to expect, since Squidman's head was already manufactured in China. Believe it or not, even the Samurai's armor-- a part not seen in sets since at least Orient Expedition-- uses its "classic" mold rather than a newer, re-tooled mold. That came as a particular surprise on my part.

Also, in the case of some of the Chinese molds, I think they're planning to carry them over to mainstream sets eventually. I've heard that's the case with the torso and arm molds. In that case, using lower-quality molds wouldn't really be a very viable strategy. All in all, the reason for producing sets in China is pretty much the same reason as for most Chinese production, LEGO or not: the costs of labor and production in China are lower. So that could easily explain how LEGO affords to produce the new molds for the collectible minifigures (coupled with the windfall profits these things must be generating).

And we don't have confirmation of lower quality of the plastic in the Collectible Minifigures. Most of the reports we've heard directly from TLG say that it's the same plastic used in any other sets, and that the dye may be what's inconsistent. There are rumors that LEGO was forced to get plastic from a local supplier due to some hassles regarding importation of plastic from their regular supplier, but I can't really gauge whether these are any more or less credible than LEGO's official story on the matter.

[Enpaz]

What'd interest me, how many molds exactly do TLG need to buy/create when they are planning to produce a new element? I mean, like 100s, or 1000s, or whatever?

Enpaz

[davee123]

The wavy hair on the Hula Girl is the exact same mold as all other sets with that hair use.

Huh-- now, that's pretty interesting. We actually DO have confirmation from the VP of quality control in Denmark that the plastic in China is of lower quality than normal. They wanted to use their normal supply chain for the source of ABS, but ended up having to select an in-country alternative.

Now, I just checked my brown 'hula hair' from another set, and it doesn't appear to have the same translucency issues as other plastic from the Chinese manufacturing. So that means it probably was NOT manufactured in China. But if it's the same exact mold (it appears to line up exactly with the Hula Girl's hair), that means they actually sent the mold off to China to be used for the minifigure line. I guess that would make sense (and with the Samurai armor like you also pointed out) if they're not planning on manufacturing it in the main queue Europe?

Also, in the case of some of the Chinese molds, I think they're planning to carry them over to mainstream sets eventually.

That would make sense-- I believe the "ray gun" is coming out in the upcoming alien invasion sets, which might mean they're sending it back to Europe for normal production.

I've heard that's the case with the torso and arm molds.

NOOOOOooooo! That was one of my few hopes of easily distinguishing Chinese manufactured minifigs! That means it'll require some more involved methods to tell the difference... Le sigh.

There are rumors that LEGO was forced to get plastic from a local supplier due to some hassles regarding importation of plastic from their regular supplier, but I can't really gauge whether these are any more or less credible than LEGO's official story on the matter.

That was right from the horse's mouth at a Danish LEGO event, actually. The reason WHY wasn't clear-- it could be because of import regulations, extreme high cost thanks to import tax, or even something silly like availability and timing. I hope that LEGO can get the higher-grade ABS into use in China, but for now, I think it's still the low-grade stuff.

DaveE

[Lego Amaryl]

look at the megablocks picture....it's true horror is not that it's megablocks, it's that this set is at least half useless, <insert that tiresome argument> pieces....and it makes BURPs look good.

Anyway, my point is that if, God forbid, TLG continues making more and more new pieces, it will start to look more and more like this.

I don't think there's this risk.

TLG introduces many new molds every year, but only few are large specialized pieces. Most of the new pieces can be used in a wide variety of ways, even if they are introduced for a specific use. Some examples:

- the new mudguard introduced in City theme is often used as an arch over the windows, or in SW sets.

- the telescope is used as a support for fences

- even the big piece for the concrete mixer is used in another way in an Atlantis submarine!

This is what makes TLG a true construction toy, different from Megabloks!

[Aanchir]

Huh-- now, that's pretty interesting. We actually DO have confirmation from the VP of quality control in Denmark that the plastic in China is of lower quality than normal. They wanted to use their normal supply chain for the source of ABS, but ended up having to select an in-country alternative.

Nice to hear. When I heard this rumor, the person who mentioned it wouldn't name their source, making it a bit hard to believe. Having a verifiable source makes it a little easier to see what actually happened.

The thing about the arm and torso molds (as I heard it) is that the Chinese plant got the more up-to-date molds, and I heard the molding and printing process will eventually be standardized between facilities. Thus, the new arm molds will replace the old ones, and torsos will no longer need neck printing. Hopefully by that time LEGO will have stabilized Chinese production quality and there will no longer be a serious need to distinguish between minifigures from the different factories. No real way to predict that, since I'm not sure how far over the horizon these changes are.

In fact, based on what we've seen in sets so far, the Chinese facility tends to be responsible for a lot of newer developments in LEGO production. For instance, parts with advanced painting and printing, like the Toy Story minifigure heads, Power Miners Rock Monster parts, and some Space Police III alien heads are all produced in China. We additionally haven't seen any side-printing on minifig legs other than from the Chinese facilities. This leads me to believe that the Chinese facility is being used as a sort of "low-cost testing ground" for new ideas. So probably most of the nice new part design principles we've seen so far from the Chinese facility will be "mainstreamed" at some point and moved to the other facilities as well.

My hope is that in addition to "mainstreaming" parts from the Chinese factory, LEGO will eventually "mainstream" the factory itself. That is to say, LEGO will actually obtain complete ownership of the factory. Thus, we'd be able to see the same level of quality control and accountability from the Chinese factory as from the other factories where LEGO currently produces parts. And yet we (the consumers) would still benefit from the lower production costs in China.

[davee123]

What'd interest me, how many molds exactly do TLG need to buy/create when they are planning to produce a new element? I mean, like 100s, or 1000s, or whatever?

I believe it's usually just a single mold-- each mold can be used to produce millions of elements over the course of its lifespan. Sometimes, for common elements, I believe LEGO produces several copies of a mold. For instance, I wouldn't be overly surprised if LEGO had as many as 10 copies of their 2x4 brick mold actively in use. I think that's one reason why some 1xN bricks have hollow "rods" in the underside, and others don't-- there's just multiple active molds, with slight variations.

DaveE

[wtfbbq]

What'd interest me, how many molds exactly do TLG need to buy/create when they are planning to produce a new element? I mean, like 100s, or 1000s, or whatever?

Enpaz

It's probably 1 mold for the part. Maybe a few different parts per mold, although I'd assume that they just fit a dozen or so of the same element in a mold, so there aren't color or quantity constraints

[davee123]

When I heard this rumor, the person who mentioned it wouldn't name their source, making it a bit hard to believe.

Actually, that was me :) And I followed up after verifying the source and the fact that I could make it public, but it was several weeks later.

and torsos will no longer need neck printing.

Isn't that already true? I wasn't aware that any heads currently in production for the past few years have had any neck printing?

Hopefully by that time LEGO will have stabilized Chinese production quality and there will no longer be a serious need to distinguish between minifigures from the different factories.

Too late :(

I do hope they can straighten out their production issues in China, which I'm *guessing* is mostly caused by the discrepancy in plastic. There are several other issues with the Chinese figures, but they could all very well stem from using the lesser plastic.

For instance, parts with advanced painting and printing, like the Toy Story minifigure heads, Power Miners Rock Monster parts, and some Space Police III alien heads are all produced in China.

Yep. I've heard essentially that the facilities in China are better at doing quality printing. Honestly, I haven't seen any difference in terms of the quality of the prints themselves, but certainly they're able to print in a variety of ways that we've never seen before, like printing on the sides of legs and bizarre angles.

My hope is [...] LEGO will actually obtain complete ownership of the factory. Thus, we'd be able to see the same level of quality control and accountability from the Chinese factory as from the other factories where LEGO currently produces parts. And yet we (the consumers) would still benefit from the lower production costs in China.

Huh-- I wasn't aware that they didn't own the facilities. That might explain the requirement for the lower quality plastic, actually. If the factory only used one of a certain number of pre-existing mixes of ABS, that would certainly have forced LEGO into using it, rather than their normal ABS supply chain.

As for LEGO QC, it would be interesting to see what that would entail. I heard rumors that supposedly originated from Steve Witt that various Chinese production problems were resolved back when the 2nd wave of minifigures was produced, although I don't know which problems those were.

My main issues with the Chinese products are the translucency (probably fixed by the plastic?) and the deforming of minifig arms when switched out (probably also fixed by the plastic). Other issues have been reported with more defined flashing (that could be a QC thing), minifig hands not twisting correctly (don't know what that's caused by), and surface sheen (also not sure what causes this). Possible that those would be fixed by LEGO QC, but I don't really know...

DaveE

[MinifigFreak2010]

As far as hand rotation issues? could be an improper fit(either the arm or hand wasn't formed properly causing issues) or maybe there's friction due to the material.

I've tried rotating the hand on the Karate guy to put a trophey on his hand and I couldn't. I felt like I was gonna break it if I forced it.

Edited February 15, 2011 by MinifigFreak2010

[davee123]

As far as hand rotation issues? could be an improper fit(either the arm or hand wasn't formed properly causing issues) or maybe there's friction due to the material.

My guess was that there's probably extra flashing, possibly around each element, which gets in the way when rotating. But it could also be a misaligned mold assembly that's occasionally triggered. That would also have a similar result.

I suppose there are other possibilities, like the plastic cooling differently and expanding/contracting beyond normal bounds, although I wouldn't expect that to be the case since they typically cool sufficiently before being ejected from the mold... plus it's a pretty small part.

Hmmm... maybe I'll see if one of my few duplicates has the problem, and take it apart in the name of curiosity.

DaveE

[Baylego]

Huh, it is interesing to hear that TLG recognizes that cheaper plastic is being made in China. I would say that it is crazy to make a $10,000 mold and then sell it as a small part in a set. Mabye this is why the sets are getting so expensive?

[Enpaz]

If you really mostly need only one mold for one element (apparently so it is), then why does everyone justify high set prices with new molds?

Come on - I don't know exact figures of set sales, but if a set sells 100000-times, then even 20000 bucks a mold would be nothing for TLG! It would up the price of a set by 0.2 dollars only.

Perhaps I'm wrong, if that is the case please explain the system to me and how it works BUT if I'm right, then I really cannot understand all the fuzz about new molds!

The Lego Group is a huuge company, and Lego is the most popular toy on earth. 20000 bucks shouldn't concern them that much, or should it? And even then we're talking about the maximum. According to statements of other users in this topic, they usually cost much less, even "only a few thousand dollars" (which equals $7000 in my mind) to quote Brickdoctor here.

Enpaz

Edited February 16, 2011 by Enpaz

[davee123]

why does everyone justify high set prices with new molds?

Well, really that's just one of many costs.

But keep in mind that while that may be the cost of producing the FINAL mold, there's also the cost of designing the mold, testing it for things like safety, color distribution, and piece integrity, and how many elements it produces in a single shot.

But to actually equate a high set price SOLELY on the presence of a new mold would be silly, unless you have the data to back it up. There are so many costs that go into a set that NEVER get mentioned, like the size of the production run, assembly cost, and other wacky stuff. And then there are the factors that get discussed a lot, like licensing fees, design, currency strength, target audience, element diversity, etc, etc.

I think one reason that mold cost is mentioned so frequently is because it's something consumers can understand. There are a lot of other factors that people simply "don't get". You absolutely, positively will NOT get LEGO to explain all the intricacies of their pricing system to you. And you probably wouldn't want all that data-- they have an entire staff dedicated to pricing whose job it is to figure it all out. But when it comes time to explain it to John Q. Public, you'll get a partial explanation like mold cost.

Another reason you see it come up is probably because when you actually TALK to set designers, they'll flat-out tell you that new molds ARE a major consideration. Whether that's because of the COST of the finalized mold, or other factors, I'm not sure-- but sit down with a designer sometime, and they'll tell you that new molds are considered pretty hefty in terms of cost.

20000 bucks shouldn't concern them that much, or should it? And even then we're talking about the maximum.

Um, $20,000 isn't the maximum. From what I understand, that's closer to the minimum. I've typically heard a range of $10,000 to $100,000, depending on the complexity of the mold.

DaveE

[Brickdoctor]

And even then we're talking about the maximum. According to statements of other users in this topic, they usually cost much less, even "only a few thousand dollars" (which equals $7000 in my mind) to quote Brickdoctor here.

Sorry. I honestly had no idea how much TLG payed but remembered what BA pays, so I just wrote a few figuring that was pretty safe. It does occur to me I could have Googled it, and that TLG would use much more advanced molds than BA does...

EDIT:...and BA says 'many thousands of dollars'. I guess my memory isn't as good as I thought it was.

EDIT2: According to this article from who knows where, injection molds for any plastic in general, not just LEGO, cost between 25K and 150K. Less for aluminum, but those molds have "limitations".

Edited February 16, 2011 by Brickdoctor