8458 vs 8461

[RockeTeK]

Hi all!

I was wondering whether the 8458 Silver Champion and the 8461 Williams F1 have exactly the same setup, and contain the same parts.

So, is it then also possible to build the 8458 B model (the truck) from the parts of the 8461?

Which of the two (8458 or 8461) do you prefer, and why?

cheers,

RockeTeK

Edited January 19, 2011 by RockeTeK

[Blakbird]

Hi all!

I was wondering whether the 8458 Silver Champion and the 8461 Williams F1 have exactly the same setup, and contain the same parts.

So, is it then also possible to build the 8458 B model (the truck) from the parts of the 8461?

Which of the two (8458 or 8461) do you prefer, and why?

They are virtually identical except for color. Among the differences:

• 8461 uses the newer panels which are smoother than the old ones. The old panels have holes for tubing to be inserted.
• 8461 has a flatter rear spoiler wing to allow for placement of the large sticker.
• 8461 has a lot more stickers overall.
• 8461 has some rare parts including blue pistons for the engine and white flexible axles.

That's about it. Chassis is identical, body construction is identical except for what I listed. The parts list has only a few different parts to account for the spoiler. You can generally pick up 8458 for less money because it is more common. The choice really comes down to color and whether or not you like stickers. The 8461 stickers get easily destroyed by UV and then it looks terrible.

By the way, 8674 is the same physical size and is also an F-1 car, but the construction of that one is totally different. It is all studless and has very little part commonality with the others.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Blakbird

[RockeTeK]

Thanks for your explanation Blakbird!

For me it is indeed a matter of colour. I found a shop that still has one 8461!

So it is possible to build 8458-B with 8461?

As for the 8674: IT IS RED, ughh... got enough red parts!

Edited January 19, 2011 by RockeTeK

[Conchas]

If you found a shop still selling one, you shouldn't be here posting, but buying it!

It would be a shame to loose such rare opportunity, if you come to see the high prices a MISB one sells at BrickLink...

[freakwave]

They are virtually identical except for color. Among the differences:

• 8461 uses the newer panels which are smoother than the old ones. The old panels have holes for tubing to be inserted.
• 8461 has a flatter rear spoiler wing to allow for placement of the large sticker.
• 8461 has a lot more stickers overall.
• 8461 has some rare parts including blue pistons for the engine and white flexible axles.

That's about it. Chassis is identical, body construction is identical except for what I listed. The parts list has only a few different parts to account for the spoiler. You can generally pick up 8458 for less money because it is more common. The choice really comes down to color and whether or not you like stickers. The 8461 stickers get easily destroyed by UV and then it looks terrible.

By the way, 8674 is the same physical size and is also an F-1 car, but the construction of that one is totally different. It is all studless and has very little part commonality with the others.

I was also looking at the difference not too long ago in order to decide if I should go for the Silver Champion or not. Going through both instructions, step by step, the only major difference is the construction of the rear spoiler. I finally did not get the SC.

What I noticed between the 8461 and the 8674 is that the suspension "feels" better on the 8674, anybody else has the same issue that the 8461 suspension lies too flat on the floor?

fW

Edited January 19, 2011 by freakwave

[Anio]

The noze of 8461 is also a bit different from 8458.

Personally, I think that 8674 is much more realistic. Its suspensions are also a little bit more efficient (especially on the front axle).

The steering is better too.

And with the stickers, it is totally awesome !

Edited January 19, 2011 by Anio

[Blakbird]

For me it is indeed a matter of colour. I found a shop that still has one 8461!

So it is possible to build 8458-B with 8461?

I've never tried it, but yes you should be able to build the 8458 B-model "silver truck" with the 8461. I have built the silver truck several times and really like it, but I've never tried it with the Williams Racer. It would certainly look different.

Of course, that's not all you can build. Beyond the main model and the silver truck, you can also build a 3rd alternate model, the "silver sportscar". The instructions were only available in downloaded form. I've built it, and it is not very good compared with the other two models, but it is worth trying. Then, of course, there are Nathanael Kuipers models you can build. There is a "Sportcar" using only the parts from 8458, then the "GT Car" and "Supercar" also use the parts from 8466. The last one in particular is fantastic. I've never seen one built in Williams colors, but it would be fascinating.

A Model Silver Champion

B Model Silver Truck

C Model Silver Sportscar

D Model NK Sportcar

E Model NK GT Car

F Model NK Supercar

[Blakbird]

I've never tried it, but yes you should be able to build the 8458 B-model "silver truck" with the 8461. I have built the silver truck several times and really like it, but I've never tried it with the Williams Racer. It would certainly look different.

This line of thinking got me curious, and I wanted to know what the Nathanael Kuipers supercar would look like if made from 8461 instead of 8458, so I decided to answer my own question. The answer: it looks awesome:

[RockeTeK]

That looks sick indeed, and considering that I already have 8466... Do you mind sharing instructions? (for all models!)

Edited January 19, 2011 by RockeTeK

[Blakbird]

That looks sick indeed, and considering that I already have 8466... Do you mind sharing instructions? (for all models!)

The first two main models you can get instructions on Brickset. For the third alternate, if you search here on Eurobricks you'll find a post with a PDF of the instructions. For Nathanael Kuipers models, look at his Brickshelf folder. Nathanael made his own instructions for the first. None for the GT Car, but you can build it from the CAD file. For the Supercar, NK did not make instructions, but a third party did using his CAD file. I can't remember where I found them, but you can probably find a link searching Eurobricks. I built my copy before the instructions were available directly from the CAD file, so I don't know how good the instructions are. Obviously, there are no instructions for the new blue version I posted.

[hga09]

Thanks for the information Blackbird. I was also curious about the differences between 8458 and 8461.

Now only if I can find a 8674 at a decent price...

[TechnicJuan]

The Williams 8641 set doesn't come with a steering wheel and the 8458 does.

[freakwave]

This line of thinking got me curious, and I wanted to know what the Nathanael Kuipers supercar would look like if made from 8461 instead of 8458, so I decided to answer my own question. The answer: it looks awesome:

Blakbird, I did not count the panels in the render, Just came back from the basement, there are too many white panels in the render, the Williams has only a total of 4, so you would need to use two of the old-style silver panels that the WIlliams uses for the underside. Bet use IMHO is the lower back.

Now only if I can find a 8674 at a decent price...

I was really lucky when a chain of stores here in Germany folded last year, I got one for 25 EUR MISB from the shelf, could not resist

Edited January 20, 2011 by freakwave

[Blakbird]

The Williams 8641 set doesn't come with a steering wheel and the 8458 does.

True. That steering wheel is for the alternate model (truck), so it is not a difference between the main F1 models.

Blakbird, I did not count the panels in the render, Just came back from the basement, there are too many white panels in the render, the Williams has only a total of 4, so you would need to use two of the old-style silver panels that the WIlliams uses for the underside. Bet use IMHO is the lower back.

Correct. The metallic green panels in NKs Supercar come from the 8466, not from the 8458. Both models are needed to make the Supercar. I just changed the silver to blue and the green to white, so it is not surprising that there is not enough white to complete the car in the 8641. There are some other anomalies. The holes in the smooth panels are not big enough for the ribbed tubing to fit, so the tubing in the picture cannot actually be installed. It is only there through the magic of computer rendering. In a real model, you would need to replace them with flex axles. I also changed some of the angle connectors to blue but I am not 100% sure that all of them really exist. This was an imaging exercise! You could probably build most of it in real life though.

[TechnicJuan]

True. That steering wheel is for the alternate model (truck), so it is not a difference between the main F1 models.

I know. The TC asked if the Alternate model could be built from the same parts as with the 8458 and I didn't see anyone mention about the steering wheel that came in the 8458 set.

[phool]

There are some awesome high resolution photos of these two sets from various angles on this particular blog:

[kostasm13]

The first two main models you can get instructions on Brickset. For the third alternate, if you search here on Eurobricks you'll find a post with a PDF of the instructions. For Nathanael Kuipers models, look at his Brickshelf folder. Nathanael made his own instructions for the first. None for the GT Car, but you can build it from the CAD file. For the Supercar, NK did not make instructions, but a third party did using his CAD file. I can't remember where I found them, but you can probably find a link searching Eurobricks. I built my copy before the instructions were available directly from the CAD file, so I don't know how good the instructions are. Obviously, there are no instructions for the new blue version I posted.

The instructions you are looking for are in this thread on the second page.

[Taiphun]

That image isn't totally accurate. The top pod is flipped upside down, if the builder flipped it the bulge wouldn't be so exaggerated and would make the car look better.

[sten]

Not only do I think that the Williams looks much better, but digging through my old catalogs I found that it was also $40 cheaper than the Silver Champion! $130 vs $170. Which doesnt make sense because it has more pieces and is a replica of a real car.

[Kumbbl]

a completely different approach for getting a Formula 1 racer:

Go for getting a second set of 8880 (the first one is of course for the main-model, the black king himself ;-) and build the B-model. Well, for just showing the racer in a glass cabinet the 8458 rsp. 8461 looks better but when playablitly comes in focus both of them are lousy, steering by hand is quite impossible at least for men or older children....

Therefore my recommendation: build the B-model of 8880 and you get a really very well designed and cute looking racer, full featured with 4W suspension (good compromise between softness and stiffyness), V8 engine and even a gearbox (just 2 speeds but at least - 8458 and 8461 both lacks a gearbox)... well, maybe the suspension design of 8458/8461 is slighty more realistic for a modern F1 racer but IMHO the suspension of the 8880 B-Model is also well done for a race-car...

IMHO the B-modell of 8880 is one of the prettiest studded model ever...

Picture can be seen here: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20778

[Paul B Technic]

D model built out of 8641:

http://mizibunktechnic.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/8461-d-model-nathanael-kuipers-nk-sport.html

[SheepEater]

====== 8458 parts not in 8461 ======

(@@@@@ are parts you need to build the racing truck B model from 8458 instructions).

+2 78c05 Flat Silver Hose, Ribbed 7mm D. 5L

+6 78c11 Flat Silver Hose, Ribbed 7mm D. 11L @@@@@ 1 silver from spares, 1 silver from 8466

+2 2412b Black Tile, Modified 1 x 2 Grille with Bottom Groove / Lip

1 2741 Black Technic, Steering Wheel Large @@@@@ 1 from spares

+9 2780 Black Technic, Pin with Friction Ridges Lengthwise WITH Center Slots

+2 3647 Light Gray Technic, Gear 8 Tooth @@@@@ 2 from spares

+1 3648 Light Gray Technic, Gear 24 Tooth (New Style with Single Axle Hole) @@@@@ 1 from 8415

+2 3705 Black Technic, Axle 4

+3 6558 Black Technic, Pin Long with Friction Ridges Lengthwise @@@@@ 2 from spares

+2 6629 Black Technic, Liftarm 1 x 9 Bent (6 - 4) Thick @@@@@ 2 blue from 8415

+4 32000 Black Technic, Brick 1 x 2 with Holes @@@@@ 4 from 8408

+7 32188 (Black&Silver) Technic, Panel Fairing # 3 Large Long, Large Holes, Side A

+7 32189 (Black&Silver) Technic, Panel Fairing # 4 Large Long, Large Holes, Side B

4 32190 Metallic Silver Technic, Panel Fairing # 1 Large Short, Large Holes, Side A

4 32191 Metallic Silver Technic, Panel Fairing # 2 Large Short, Large Holes, Side B

+2 32291 Black Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Perpendicular Double (two spots, symmetrical, use 1 black and 1 light gray)

+1 75535 Black Technic, Pin Connector Round (Pin Joiner Round) @@@@@ 1 from 8437, or just use 1 light bluish gray from spares

====== 8461 parts not in 8458 ======

2 78c10 Blue Hose, Ribbed 7mm D. 10L

+1 2445 White Plate 2 x 12

2 3030 Blue Plate 4 x 10

1 3034 White Plate 2 x 8

+2 3707 Black Technic, Axle 8

+2 3713 Light Gray Technic Bush

+16 3749 Light Gray Technic, Axle Pin without Friction Ridges Lengthwise

+6 4162 (8 Blue,2 White) Tile 1 x 8

+4 4265c Light Gray Technic Bush 1/2 Smooth

+10 4274 Light Gray Technic, Pin 1/2

2 6179 White Tile, Modified 4 x 4 with Studs on Edge

+4 6536 White Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Perpendicular

+4 6538b (four colors) Technic, Axle Connector (Ridged with x Hole x Orientation)

+2 6587 Dark Gray Technic, Axle 3 with Stud

+2 6632 White Technic, Liftarm 1 x 3 Thin

8 6636 Blue Tile 1 x 6

+2 32013 Black Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #1

+2 32054 Black Technic, Pin Long with Friction Ridges Lengthwise and Stop Bush

+2 32062 Black Technic, Axle 2 Notched

+6 32140 Black Technic, Liftarm 2 x 4 L-Shape Thick

+4 32184 Black Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Perpendicular 3L with Center Pin Hole

+2 32235 White Hose, Soft Axle 19

+2 32348 Blue Technic, Liftarm 1 x 7 Bent (4 - 4) Thick

4 41677 Black Technic, Liftarm 1 x 2 Thin

4 44350 Blue Technic, Panel Fairing #20 Large Long, Small Hole, Side A

2 44350 White Technic, Panel Fairing #20 Large Long, Small Hole, Side A

4 44351 Blue Technic, Panel Fairing #21 Large Long, Small Hole, Side B

2 44351 White Technic, Panel Fairing #21 Large Long, Small Hole, Side B

3 44352 Blue Technic, Panel Fairing #22 Large Short, Small Hole, Side A

1 44352 White Technic, Panel Fairing #22 Large Short, Small Hole, Side A

3 44353 Blue Technic, Panel Fairing #23 Large Short, Small Hole, Side B

1 44353 White Technic, Panel Fairing #23 Large Short, Small Hole, Side B

[750ACE]

Can we throw the 8674 into the mix? I am interested in how it compares to the other two in build quality, part content and realism. Average resale price seems to be more than the williams and less than the silver champion.

[Sato]

The first two main models you can get instructions on Brickset. For the third alternate, if you search here on Eurobricks you'll find a post with a PDF of the instructions. For Nathanael Kuipers models, look at his Brickshelf folder. Nathanael made his own instructions for the first. None for the GT Car, but you can build it from the CAD file. For the Supercar, NK did not make instructions, but a third party did using his CAD file. I can't remember where I found them, but you can probably find a link searching Eurobricks. I built my copy before the instructions were available directly from the CAD file, so I don't know how good the instructions are. Obviously, there are no instructions for the new blue version I posted.

I've got two different versions of that PDF file on my harddrive, One of which is in slightly better quality and they also aren't exactly the same either.

[Kumbbl]

<Bump>

Anybody out there who has an idea how to improve the front suspension of the 8461? because it is too weak IMHO, ie. it comes up very slowly (if that!) - rear suspension works well but front suspension is more or less useless...

Any ideas?

Thanks a lot!