Neil Scotland

LEGO 12V Train Motors

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Hi all, first post here and i really need some help. Over recent years I've been collecting more of my childhood Lego 12v trains, mainly on eBay, and have just moved house, so finally can set it up properly.

However, despite cleaning of the track and having circa 10 different 12v motors, they all seem to be getting stuck/jittering round the track. Some are better than others but basically the pickups seem really dirty. I've been searching forums etc but haven't found any specific help in relation to cleaning or fixing 12v motors. My specific questions are:

1. How do you open up the motor to clean them?

2. Can you change the pick-ups on the motors?

3. How do you check the track tinder if there are any faults? Is there a suggested electrical testing tool?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Neil

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1. How do you open up the motor to clean them?
Only open them if they squize like a mouse. Some 12v motors do run slowly then others, but cleaning inside them won't make them faster.
2. Can you change the pick-ups on the motors?
I have 12v system for almost 10 years and have to see the first 12v motor worn out sleepers on the motors.
3. How do you check the track tinder if there are any faults? Is there a suggested electrical testing tool?
The 12v system is a hard system to let it run smoothly. Clean the innertrack well with alcohol or benzine. It's clean when the cloth (which you clean it dipped in alcohol or benzine) doesn't get dirty anymore. Same for the sleepers under the 12v motors.

Then let a track with 2x 12vmotor connected with a wire to eachother (like train 7740 of 7755) run a few laps on the track. Then single 12v motors won't have difficulty to run smoothly

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Panda has experience with them, he is also an EB member (Dutch guy).

(uhhm, you were just too quick AFOL12v ;)), @Neil, that guy is the 12V motor expert so I woul suggest: just believe him :)

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Only open them if they squize like a mouse. Some 12v motors do run slowly then others, but cleaning inside them won't make them faster.

I have 12v system for almost 10 years and have to see the first 12v motor worn out sleepers on the motors.

The 12v system is a hard system to let it run smoothly. Clean the innertrack well with alcohol or benzine. It's clean when the cloth (which you clean it dipped in alcohol or benzine) doesn't get dirty anymore. Same for the sleepers under the 12v motors.

Then let a track with 2x 12vmotor connected with a wire to eachother (like train 7740 of 7755) run a few laps on the track. Then single 12v motors won't have difficulty to run smoothly

Thanks for this and the quick response. I kind of feel like giving up but I will go and try a further cleaning again and see what happens. How do you know if your motors are just broken?

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Hi all, first post here and i really need some help. Over recent years I've been collecting more of my childhood Lego 12v trains, mainly on eBay, and have just moved house, so finally can set it up properly.

However, despite cleaning of the track and having circa 10 different 12v motors, they all seem to be getting stuck/jittering round the track. Some are better than others but basically the pickups seem really dirty. I've been searching forums etc but haven't found any specific help in relation to cleaning or fixing 12v motors. My specific questions are:

1. How do you open up the motor to clean them?

2. Can you change the pick-ups on the motors?

3. How do you check the track tinder if there are any faults? Is there a suggested electrical testing tool?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Neil

What did you use to clean the track? Without the right kind of cleaner, it doesn't matter how much you cleaned the track, or how shiny it is. It's not the dirt that you can see that blocks the electricity, it's the dirt you can't see. Regular household cleaners do not help. After trying many cleaners, I've found that the only thing I could find in our house that actually works is paint-thinner. However, I think it's much better to go to a hobby store and ask them for a good track cleaner (that's what I'm going to do the next time I set up the track, because I worry that the paint-thinner might not be so good for the plastic parts).

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Open a 12V motor means break the external shell.

In several years I have done this operation only one time (on a very old red motor): it was a success but I'll never do this work again (specially on the same motor :classic: ).

If the bottom contacts (or the inner track contacts) are rusty you can clean them with a product like alcool or "Sidol".

Normally I clean my rail contacts with Sidol, then soap & water and immediately compressed air. Use only alcool or Sidol on the motor, and remove also the hair or carpet dust from the motor axle.

Keep alive your 12V system :laugh:

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One more thing, unless you've used a cleaner that actually works (like wasbenzine, paint thinner, or better: a track cleaner that you can buy at a hobby store) then it is 100% certain that the track is dirty, regardless of how clean it might look like. It gets dirty even when you're not using it (even when it's properly stored).

Also, it is 100% certain that if the track hasn't been cleaned in some time by the right cleaner, then the trains won't work well.

Cleaning the sleepers helps only a little bit because when the train runs over the track, they'll pick up the dirt on the track (even if you can't see the dirt, trust me, it's there). The only thing that really works is cleaning the track.

With a freshly cleaned track, you can let the train go very slowly without it stopping anywhere. That's when the 12V system really shines, because 9V/RC trains can go fast, but only 12V trains can run smoothly at low speed.

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Panda has experience with them, he is also an EB member (Dutch guy).

(uhhm, you were just too quick AFOL12v ;)), @Neil, that guy is the 12V motor expert so I woul suggest: just believe him :)

Panda = AFOL12v :classic: . Edited by AFOL12v

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One more thing, unless you've used a cleaner that actually works (like wasbenzine, paint thinner, or better: a track cleaner that you can buy at a hobby store) then it is 100% certain that the track is dirty, regardless of how clean it might look like. It gets dirty even when you're not using it (even when it's properly stored).

Also, it is 100% certain that if the track hasn't been cleaned in some time by the right cleaner, then the trains won't work well.

Cleaning the sleepers helps only a little bit because when the train runs over the track, they'll pick up the dirt on the track (even if you can't see the dirt, trust me, it's there). The only thing that really works is cleaning the track.

With a freshly cleaned track, you can let the train go very slowly without it stopping anywhere. That's when the 12V system really shines, because 9V/RC trains can go fast, but only 12V trains can run smoothly at low speed.

Hi, thanks for all your posts. I have used White spirits and a rail rubber. The rail rubber (bought from a local hobby store really took away the dark marks on the silver electric rails. However?l, the White spirit didn't seem to be so effective (White spirit is like an alcohol based paint thinner/brush cleaner).

I will continue with this and inassume you all agree to using this on the actual motors and not the rail rubber? Really appreciate everyone's help as I really want to get my 12v running again!!!

Open a 12V motor means break the external shell.

In several years I have done this operation only one time (on a very old red motor): it was a success but I'll never do this work again (specially on the same motor :classic: ).

If the bottom contacts (or the inner track contacts) are rusty you can clean them with a product like alcool or "Sidol".

Normally I clean my rail contacts with Sidol, then soap & water and immediately compressed air. Use only alcool or Sidol on the motor, and remove also the hair or carpet dust from the motor axle.

Keep alive your 12V system :laugh:

Just out of interest on breaking open the motor, are you able to replace any of the parts? Did Lego originally sell any spare motor parts for the proper 12v motors?

Only open them if they squize like a mouse. Some 12v motors do run slowly then others, but cleaning inside them won't make them faster.

I have 12v system for almost 10 years and have to see the first 12v motor worn out sleepers on the motors.

The 12v system is a hard system to let it run smoothly. Clean the innertrack well with alcohol or benzine. It's clean when the cloth (which you clean it dipped in alcohol or benzine) doesn't get dirty anymore. Same for the sleepers under the 12v motors.

Then let a track with 2x 12vmotor connected with a wire to eachother (like train 7740 of 7755) run a few laps on the track. Then single 12v motors won't have difficulty to run smoothly

Thanks for your help. Just on this, as you've been recommended as per below, are you still able to get your 12v running smoothly. I have been mucking around and buying essentially all the 12v I wanted and then, becuasebif my concerns that the motors might pack in or be jumping, I bought a stack of 9v track and a few motors. I've also dabbled with the PF motor becuase I wanted the Cargo train. Ultimately, I want to stick with 12v because of the remote points/signals etc, but, I need to make a decision and go with one. You can pick up 9v motors for about £15 used whereas 12v are more like £40 or often higher.

It's just perfect when you get smooth running trains like with 9v but I'm torn with my old 12v.

Thoughts?

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Hi, thanks for all your posts. I have used White spirits and a rail rubber. The rail rubber (bought from a local hobby store really took away the dark marks on the silver electric rails. However?l, the White spirit didn't seem to be so effective (White spirit is like an alcohol based paint thinner/brush cleaner).

I will continue with this and inassume you all agree to using this on the actual motors and not the rail rubber?

It sounds like you really did clean the track. To be sure that the problem is the motor, and not the electrical connection, try the following: you can insert a plug (the same kind of plugs as for lego 4.5 volt system) into the 12V motor. If you don't have such a plug, don't worry, just use some electrical wires to connect the motor to the transformer.

Do you have a volt meter?

I've bought about 10 motors (all used). Five or six of them worked very well (they start turning with as little as 2 volts). Some of them didn't work so well, and needed 4 volts, and in one case as much as 6 volts, before they would turn at all. I've opened those up for lubrication, I think 4 or 5 of them, and they all work well now (they all turn with just 2 volts). That one that wouldn't turn on anything less than 6 volts had a lot of hair in it, no wonder it didn't work well.

It's not easy to open them though, so before you do that, I'd first measure it to see how many volts it takes before it starts to turn.

Do you have a 4.5 volt battery box? That's the quickest way to test a 12V motor. With 4.5 volts (applied directly to the motor, without using track), the motor will turn fairly slow, but it should definitely turn at 4.5 volts. If it does not, then I'd open it up.

These 12V motors are good quality built (you can see that when you look inside) but some (I guess depending on how they were stored) need lubrication.

Still, it seems unlikely that all your motors are bad; of the ones I bought, about 4 or 5 out of the 10 were "bad" (and all of those are OK now after opening them up, removing hair and other dirt, and lubrication). So test them to see if they turn OK when you apply the voltage directly to the motor.

When it is all set up right (the track cleaned, the contact points on the motor cleaned, and the train having run a number of loops) then it really does work very well. I can set the train at a very low speed, crawling, and it does not stop anywhere on the track. By the way, when it works well, it seems that if you use it every day, then little cleaning is necessary. Only when you haven't used it in a while, that's when it seems to need cleaning.

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However, despite cleaning of the track and having circa 10 different 12v motors, they all seem to be getting stuck/jittering round the track. Some are better than others but basically the pickups seem really dirty.

One more question: do they typically get stuck at the same piece of the track? If so, then that would be a track problem.

The pickups on my motors don't look clean either (they don't look shiny) but the motors do work well.

In my layout at our local train show

I had five 12V trains (I alternated them every couple of minutes). Sometimes I'd run them quickly, and sometimes slowly, but during the whole day not once did a train get stuck. The same was also true the year before:

By the way, each time I set up the track, the 12V track on top of that bridge needs a lots and lots of cleaning. Without serious cleaning, trains stall on the bridge. That's because the track on the bridge is exposed the whole year long (I don't disassemble the bridge) while the rest of the track is stored in zip-lock bags (so those tracks collect much less dirt). In fact, even the 9V track on that bridge needs cleaning.

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Afternoon. I've been running 12v for about 25 years, though with gaps as I move house etc. I've only ever used Methylated Spirits to clean the track - put some on a cotton ball and rub that along the track and the motor contacts. I seem to remember it being recommended by TLG when I bought my 7740 all those years ago... It works brilliantly.

I've also recently come up with a simple method of attaching a cotton ball to a basic wagon to run around the loops on my layout as it's very inaccessible. I'm off to take some pics of it and will post them in a few minutes.

Andy

I've just posted a basic selection of images on Brickshelf, hopefully the deeplinking works...

The cleaning unit itselfpict7514.jpg

Underneath. The 1 x 8 plates are important, they help keep the cotton ball/cotton wool in place. pict7518.jpg

The unit placed between two freight cars pict7519.jpg

Once in a train like this the cleaner can be pushed or pulled by a loco with a motor, but I find it better to push it by hand as the cotton wool does cause derailments, particularly when going over points. I've got a long Lego "stick" for doing that made up of technic beams.

The reason for using the cleaning unit... pict7522.jpg I simply can't get at the power rails at the back of my layout (more pics here) because my table is surrounded on three sides by walls of the room...

Edited by Andy Glascott

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Andy,

Your clearly a great innovator. I love the cotton wool carriage. Do you not find though that you get cotton wool

Stuck in your track.

Also, just been down to my local hobbies shop and he again has recommended a rail rubber. Have you ever used one? Much success?

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Andy,

Your clearly a great innovator. I love the cotton wool carriage. Do you not find though that you get cotton wool

Stuck in your track.

Also, just been down to my local hobbies shop and he again has recommended a rail rubber. Have you ever used one? Much success?

Very occasionally a bit of cotton wool gets stuck, but it's only a tiny bit and usually it gets knocked away fairly quickly. As for a rail rubber, I don't think so. I have used a standard pencil eraser occasionally (I think it was another TLG recommendation a long time ago....) but it got very dirty very quickly so I've stuck with the cotton wool and meths.

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Very occasionally a bit of cotton wool gets stuck, but it's only a tiny bit and usually it gets knocked away fairly quickly. As for a rail rubber, I don't think so. I have used a standard pencil eraser occasionally (I think it was another TLG recommendation a long time ago....) but it got very dirty very quickly so I've stuck with the cotton wool and meths.

I don't see much value in a rail rubber either. Your Methylated Spirits or something equivalent, that's the only way the train will run properly.

Neil, did you try applying a voltage directly to the motors, to test if they're OK?

Do you have the cable that sits between the motor and the lights (e.g. 7745 or 7740 have that). Then just put one end into the motor and hold a 9V battery to the other end, and see if it spins smoothly and with little effort. A good motor will spin with as little as 2 volts.

A motor that has lots of hair inside, or is in need of lubrication, such a motor will probably still spin with a 9V battery, but you can hear it struggle. Another way you can tell if the motors are in a good condition is this: If they're all good, then in this test they'll all spin at about the same speed.

Let us know how your motors do in this test.

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Once again, thanks to all.

Ok, my update is as follows:

I have cleaned the engines with White Spirit (I don't have any Meths but may well buy some.). This removed a lot of black dirty which is great. I do have a 4.5v train battery unit but no batteries at present songavent testing with this. What I've dine is used 2 single wires and tested the bottom pick-ups. This generally seems to be good so I'm back cleaning my track and will update shortly.

However, 2 of the motors sound really rough (ie a lot louder than the others) and are clearly needing some lubrication and possible hair removal. But, how do you do this? Any ideas as it seems impossible from what others have said to open the motors up as they are glued.

Thoughts?

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Once again, thanks to all.

Ok, my update is as follows:

I have cleaned the engines with White Spirit (I don't have any Meths but may well buy some.). This removed a lot of black dirty which is great. I do have a 4.5v train battery unit but no batteries at present songavent testing with this. What I've dine is used 2 single wires and tested the bottom pick-ups. This generally seems to be good so I'm back cleaning my track and will update shortly.

However, 2 of the motors sound really rough (ie a lot louder than the others) and are clearly needing some lubrication and possible hair removal. But, how do you do this? Any ideas as it seems impossible from what others have said to open the motors up as they are glued.

Thoughts?

Let us know if the good motors are now running well on the cleaned track. Keep cleaning until no more dirt comes off. With track that hasn't been cleaned (with the right cleaner) in a long time, it's quite a lot of work to clean it. But once it is well cleaned, then the next time it'll be much less work because it won't be as sticky and can come off more easily.

To open the motor, I use 3 small screw drivers. I keep prying until I can get one of them in there, and use it to push it open as far as I can. Then I leave that one in there (to prevent it from closing again) and use the next screwdriver to open it up some more. There's quite a lot of force involved and some of my repaired motors have a visible bent casing at the bottom.

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You need to use only your hands to use force at the wheels to crack it open somewhere on the coners. With 1 small strong srewdriver you can wrick the bottom open.

When open, clean also the sleepers under and above. Also the contacts in the inner parts of the 12v motor. Be very careful with the moving part of the motor itself, this break easily. Only use some copper'vet'(kopervet in english?) on the gears.

Glue the plastic parts with glue which won't melt the parts together. You might to want to get it open again someday.........

I like the idea of that wagon, which clean the inner track. A next moc for the few days........

Edited by AFOL12v

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Hi,

I might be being really weak here, but I've had an initial look at breaking open one of my 12v motors and I can remove the middle wheels but it doesn't look as if the other 4 wheels can be removed? I just really don't want to damage the motor for food. I have tried a small screwdriver at the edges but this only puts marks on the motor. Did you open a different kind of motor? Do you have pictures of a motor you've opened?

Thanks for all your help.

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Hi,

I might be being really weak here, but I've had an initial look at breaking open one of my 12v motors and I can remove the middle wheels but it doesn't look as if the other 4 wheels can be removed? I just really don't want to damage the motor for food. I have tried a small screwdriver at the edges but this only puts marks on the motor. Did you open a different kind of motor? Do you have pictures of a motor you've opened?

Thanks for all your help.

Don't try to pull the other 4 wheels off. I can make a picture of an opened motor later today or tomorrow.

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Hi. It's my first post here :-)

Mayby i can help. More than year ago i found on Brickshelf (or other similar place) several photos of 12 V motors. Now i can found only those two:

dscn0263c.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/i/dscn0263c.jpg/

dd19807862type.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/i/dd19807862type.jpg/

I don't remember autors.

(Sorry for my english, i'm stil learning :-)

Edited by wildzi

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Hi. It's my first post here :-)

Mayby i can help. More than year ago i found on Brickshelf (or other similar place) several photos of 12 V motors. Now i can found only those two:

dscn0263c.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/i/dscn0263c.jpg/

dd19807862type.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/i/dd19807862type.jpg/

I don't remember autors.

(Sorry for my english, i'm stil learning :-)

Those are excellent pictures, especially the first picture. You can see lots of things

in that picture.

First of all, you can see why these motors are quite heavy: they have

two large metal blocks in them. They are labeled A and B.

In the first picture, on the metal block that's still in the motor,

you can see the label A (hold the picture upside down).

The metal block that's taken out of the motor is labeled B (although I

can't see the B in the picture). On part B, you can see three contact points

(likewise, A also has 3 contact points).

I've taken picture #1 and added some notes to it, see the edited picture on:

http://www.math.fsu.edu/~hoeij/t/motor_edited.jpg

The contact point one on the left of part B touches the cylinder shaped piece of

metal that in turn touches the track. I indicated that in the edited picture with the number 1.

The same is also true for the right-hand side (number 2).

Note: these cylinder shaped pieces of metal that touch the track, they tend to be

the first things that fall out when you open up the motor. Don't lose them, when

you open up your motor, do expect something to fall out.

The contact point in the middle of part B touches the commutator from above. I indicated that

with the number 3.

Likewise, part A touches the commutator from below (indicated with the number 4).

Those middle contact points on part A and B,

the part of those contact points that touch the commutator are made of carbon (look

carefully, you'll see that that part has a slightly different color (it's hard to

see that in the picture). If you stall a motor and then send lots of current

through it, then that burns off the carbon. These motors have quite a bit of carbon so

they don't die quickly. If all the carbon is gone, then that's pretty much the end (the only

way to repair that is to take parts A,B out of another dead motor). So for the motors I opened

up, the first thing I always checked was to see if there was still carbon there.

All of them did, which indicated that all of these motors had a good chance to run

properly again after lubrication. Indeed, they did.

What you can also see in the picture is that these three contact points 1,2,3

on part B (and likewise on A) are fairly thin. Try not to bend them when you

open up the motor. One time I did accidentally bend contact point #1 in a motor,

the result of that was that the part that touches the track was no longer pushed

down hard enough to make good electrical contact. That motor had to be re-opened,

and after bending #1 back to where it was supposed to be, that motor ran fine again.

So, if you accidentally do bend one of those contact points #1,2,3, you can probably bend

it back again, but of course, it's better to try to avoid bending those parts when

you open up the motor.

Anyhow, you can see in the picture what you can do after you've opened it up: Lift

off part B, then you can lift the motor out, and only after that can you take

part A out. Ask the hobby store what the right kind of lubrication is (I used WD40

but I learned later that that's not good for plastic, so I'm not going to use

that again).

To put it back together again, first put in the cylinder shaped parts that touch the

track, then part A, then the motor, and then part B. When you put the motor in, push

it in far enough until you can feel it click.

Also while opening it up you might accidentally break off a little piece of

plastic from the casing. So when you put it back together, make sure there's

not a tiny little piece of loose plastic inside the motor.

Looking inside and seeing how well these motors are made, I believe that these

motors will last a long time. However, if you have a motor that is in

desperate need of lubrication, then such a motor will always draw lots of current

and will thus wear out quickly. If the motor already moves with as little

as 2 volts, then do not open it up. But if it needs 6 volts before it finally

starts to move, struggling, then I'd definitely open it up because after its

lubricated, it'll draw much less current, and thus live longer.

Do you have a volt meter? To check the status of your motors, measure the lowest

voltage at which the motor starts to spin.

If you decide to open up a motor, I would start with the one that runs the worst.

That way, you lose the least if something goes wrong.

Edited by hoeij

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OMG You are great :sweet: So much informations from only one photo! WOW

I have also some pictures of 9V motors inside.

On Brickshelf you can found photos of 4.5V, RC and PF motors inside - great!

Edited by wildzi

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