No weaponry and violence in City sets?!

[Nebi]

I voted yes. The way I see this issue is from the point of a famous quote that goes "In a future where guns are outlawed, every outlaw will have a gun." And while peace and love in a Lego city are a good ideal, it does no good to have a police officer be dropped by a bandit with a gun because he wasn't armed, and then have his friends have to respond to the guy that made their buddy die. I support this theme utterly, as not only would it show kids that guns are not "evil" but how to use a weapon RESPONSIBLY for the good of the people and the upholding of justice.

I have seen many people around here walk the streets with open carry firearms, and we have shootings in my city quite regularly. I don't like to see people die, but one thing I notice is that the ones who are usually shot are the people who weren't armed, because people thought they would be an easy target to prove their manhood or their membership into their gang. So case and point, I would much rather have my police officers and even civilians, Lego and otherwise armed and ready, then peaceful and dead. I have already armed my police, and with a more serious load out for peace-keeping then most would think.

I hope your post is meant ironic? It sounds so.

[KotZ]

After much debate, I voted YES.

When you look around, there is a lot of violence happening in the world, war or not. Look at many of the cities in the United States: gun related violence. Now, I'm not advocating to give grenades, M16s, and AKs on the criminal or average burglar (and I'm also not saying a war theme, but I'll touch on that later), that's what third party vendors (brickforge, Brickarms, etc.) are for.

-a police tank

-a police water cannon

-a SWAT unit (guns (for sharp shooters), pistols and machine pistols)

-riot police officers (batons and trans-clear bucklers)

-pistols for police officers and bandits

Now, KD, I agree with most of this list for the CITY Theme. The only thing I don't like is guns for the burglars. I know it is not realistic, but LEGO is never going to allow (well, maybe not for a few years at least) guns on the bandits. That would practically be the equivalent of saying cop-killing is perfectly fine and then let's scrap the CITY Police sub-theme and make a Grand Theft Auto theme. I really don't even care if the bandits have gun, when you get down to it, I just don't want anything bad happening to LEGO for "endorsing" an M-rated video game (but every kid nowadays seems to play it...)

I do really love the SWAT unit though, never know when a riot happens or a random well-armed burglar (most likely from our own collection of weaponry...) will show up. Rainbow Six anybody?

As for the "hard violence" you mentioned, I would say that is against the non-violence policy, but it would be nice, IMHO, to have one. Of course, I'm sure if there were modern day terrorist-like minifigures, Billund would get bombed, so MW2 is not happening. If anything, it would be a sort of "Military Police" we would see.

So, moderated violence and guns are a good thing, sort of like candy!! Great to have, but in moderation. I mean with no guns, how do Police take down the robbers? Do they act like Jack Bauer or Jason Bourne and beat they guy with whatever is around until he surrenders or back up arrives?

Guns in CITY for the win!

[Fugazi]

See, I don't care if the police forces in my City have no guns, or that the burglars have none either, or that rioters have nothing to throw at swat teams. That's because I don't care about depicting that sort of scenes in my Lego creations, I don't have thieves, armed gangs, I don't even have police forces, swat and whatnot. They're not a part of my daily real life, and even if they were I wouldn't them to contribute to my hobbies. Unrealistic maybe, but soo relaxing!

[Klaus-Dieter]

Now, KD, I agree with most of this list for the CITY Theme. The only thing I don't like is guns for the burglars. I know it is not realistic, but LEGO is never going to allow (well, maybe not for a few years at least) guns on the bandits. That would practically be the equivalent of saying cop-killing is perfectly fine and then let's scrap the CITY Police sub-theme and make a Grand Theft Auto theme. I really don't even care if the bandits have gun, when you get down to it, I just don't want anything bad happening to LEGO for "endorsing" an M-rated video game (but every kid nowadays seems to play it...)

In general I agree with you, KingoftheZempk.

But why then did the bandidts in the Western theme carry revolvers and guns when there is a sheriff in this theme?!

Klaus-Dieter

[Mr. Elijah Timms]

Maybe TLG could produce a 'weapons pack' or something to that effect, so that adult collectors could arm the cops and/or burglars if they so choose, and parents of kids would not have to worry about the guns being in the sets to begin with.

Besides, they're already available anyway through BrickArms and other vendors-- TLG might as well join in and direct the profits back to themselves.

I like the idea of choice above all else... Because obviously we have plenty of people in this thread alone who are on the fence.

[Joebot]

I'd have to disagree here. Violence is violence. Guns are guns. Just because one theme that has weapons is fantasy based, does not make it any less "violent" or excusable than one that takes place in modern times. And why wouldn't a kid be role playing when playing with his LEGO Police sets? Your right. Kids are smart these days. They can just as easily play with Star Wars sets, as well as City themed sets and separate that from every day life.

I dunno, saying "violence is violence" seems like an over-simplification to me.

For instance, I have no problem with my kids pounding on each other with those Lego foam swords and shields.

But if TLC made foam pistols and shotguns??? That's not gonna fly at my house. My kids aren't allowed to have toy guns.

So, what's the difference then? It's hard for me to explain, but it just feels different. Using swords and shields to role-play as some romaticized version of a Medieval knight seems harmless. Using modern-era guns though? That just hits "too close to home." I live in Chicago, which has been plauged by a horrible rash of street violence in the past few months. Adding weapons to the City theme, even if only the police have the guns ... it just seems kinda tasteless.

[Fires-storm]

I hope your post is meant ironic? It sounds so.

Maybe slightly, but overall no. Guns are a part of my everyday life, and I'd rather be able to have my police officers defend themselves and my citizens as well. I suppose thats why I include guns in my Lego cities, as it is what I would choose for my life. Just a personal preference though. And I would rather have my criminals with no gun in sight, but that is unrealistic, so I make them armed as well, because again, I try to depict my everyday life.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Fires-storm

[KotZ]

But why then did the bandidts in the Western theme carry revolvers and guns when there is a sheriff in this theme?!

*In an overly dramatized American Southern accent* Well, it be because us bandits and Jesse James wannabees are so overly stereotyped in pop culture that this LEGO group decided if they didn't give us guns, we'd ride our horses into their factory and demand them and put them on train tracks!! Yee haw!!

Sorry for the above, I couldn't resist.

I was originally on the fence, but as I said before, I voted yes. And, Joebot, guns and swords are definitely two different things. Now while both have historically been used to kill people, swords are more romanticized nowadays. I applaud you for not allowing your children to use guns, (although I don't know how old they are, but don't tell me anyway, and I assume they are about 6 or so). I believe guns are useful (2nd Amendment right in the States) but children need to know to respect them.

Of course, as others I believe may have said, why don't we just use the Agents as a SWAT team? Especially the second wave with those ly vests. But then, we reach the same problem.... where are the guns? All I see are lasers for the baddies, nice vehicles all around, and squirt guns for the heroes...

So I believe that in a few years at least, we may see guns pop up, hopefully. Playmobil has always done well in their police themes (I love Playmobil as well... Don't beat me up!! ) so maybe LEGO will get a whiff of the ideas soon and finally we can get stuff in sets.

[Munkay]

I dunno, saying "violence is violence" seems like an over-simplification to me.

For instance, I have no problem with my kids pounding on each other with those Lego foam swords and shields.

But if TLC made foam pistols and shotguns??? That's not gonna fly at my house. My kids aren't allowed to have toy guns.

So, what's the difference then? It's hard for me to explain, but it just feels different. Using swords and shields to role-play as some romaticized version of a Medieval knight seems harmless. Using modern-era guns though? That just hits "too close to home." I live in Chicago, which has been plauged by a horrible rash of street violence in the past few months. Adding weapons to the City theme, even if only the police have the guns ... it just seems kinda tasteless.

I think you miss understood what i was talking about when i said "Violence is violence".

Now in your example, I'd agree. (to an extent). Though its very easy to argue that foam swords are just as "violent" as toy guns, (mainly because you actually have to make contact with swords vs. just pointing and going "bang bang!"),I do see a difference with kids bashing each other with Foam swords and pointing guns at each other. I respect your decision as a parent if you choose not to let your kids play with toy guns.

What i don't see a difference in is being OK with "fantasy" theme's such as Star wars, Pirates, Agents etc, but not being OK with a modern version such as a police force. I also find it incredible hypocritical of those that find it perfectly fine for there favorite license theme such as Batman or Indiana Jones to have weapons, but then would be insulted if TLG decided to give their local policeman a hand gun. Both these theme's are fairly modern in the sense that they have vehicles and modern day weaponry. I don't buy that its OK to have guns just because they are licensed theme's. If someone feels that strongly about weapons in there Lego sets, it shouldn't matter what theme its coming from. This is the point at were i believe "violence is violence".

As far as it being "tasteless" as you say, i truly don't understand this. Its not people are asking to make Holocaust sets. You'd mearly be adding weapons that TLG has been using it several of its other theme's for years now. Is it tasteless for real policeman to carry guns?

[peterab]

What i don't see a difference in is being OK with "fantasy" theme's such as Star wars, Pirates, Agents etc, but not being OK with a modern version such as a police force. I also find it incredible hypocritical of those that find it perfectly fine for there favorite license theme such as Batman or Indiana Jones to have weapons, but then would be insulted if TLG decided to give their local policeman a hand gun. Both these theme's are fairly modern in the sense that they have vehicles and modern day weaponry. I don't buy that its OK to have guns just because they are licensed theme's. If someone feels that strongly about weapons in there Lego sets, it shouldn't matter what theme its coming from. This is the point at were i believe "violence is violence".

As far as it being "tasteless" as you say, i truly don't understand this. Its not people are asking to make Holocaust sets. You'd mearly be adding weapons that TLG has been using it several of its other theme's for years now. Is it tasteless for real policeman to carry guns?

I don't really find it OK in any theme, but the reality is in the licenced themes, if they have guns in the source material there is a huge pressure for TLG to replicate that in the sets. Since the licenced themes are finacially important for lego I can hardly complain that they try and do them well.

I think I have a right to expect their most sucessful theme (town) to continue to be gun free, since it has worked up to now, and as you say the violence is encroaching on every other theme. Just because 'violence is violence' it doesn't need to be everywhere. Can't those of us that remember and value TLG's original goals of imaginative non-violent toys have one small area not overtaken by guns? I do feel strongly about weapons in my lego sets, that's a large reason I don't collect a lot of other themes apart from train/town.

Besides those that want violence can easily arm their police using the licenced weapons already.

[SalvoBrick]

I'm against violence in official town sets, but there are lots of weapons in other themes, so if you like adding guns to your police forces (like in my town :) ) nobody forbids you to do so :)

[Foti18]

Here in Norway, the police aren't allowed to carry guns unless they are responding to a shooting or the sight of a gun in public. And they manage to arrest people pretty often

So the CITY policemen don't need guns unless the citizens of LEGO town start carrying guns

I am from Norway too, and i have also noticed that the police here does not carry guns. They leave them in the car, and only take them out if someone is shooting at them.

[SilentMode]

With no pedestal or high horse in sight, I would support keeping weapons and violence out of official Town sets - but if someone wants to include them in their own sets they ought to be free to do so. And this comes from someone who owns a [bB] shotgun.

Edited August 8, 2010 by SilentMode

[CarrollFilms]

Well I kind of like the violence, only in a few sets, if they are going to have violence in a set it will most likely be in a police set, but majority of those sets are chasing. So no, because there wouldn't be any good sets with lots of weapons, the only good sets with violence would need parts like BrickForge and BrickArms.com

[Jay Sathe]

I almost think that LEGO already has been sneaking weapon shapes into CITY sets. The 7744 Police HQ has 2 megaphones, which, when held backwards, can be played with as guns... Nozzles from Octan vehicles are perfectly pistol shaped, and many drills can be used as guns as well. There have also always been chainsaws, circular saws, and other weapons in CITY/town sets.....

[Joebot]

What i don't see a difference in is being OK with "fantasy" theme's such as Star wars, Pirates, Agents etc, but not being OK with a modern version such as a police force. I also find it incredible hypocritical of those that find it perfectly fine for there favorite license theme such as Batman or Indiana Jones to have weapons, but then would be insulted if TLG decided to give their local policeman a hand gun. Both these theme's are fairly modern in the sense that they have vehicles and modern day weaponry. I don't buy that its OK to have guns just because they are licensed theme's. If someone feels that strongly about weapons in there Lego sets, it shouldn't matter what theme its coming from. This is the point at were i believe "violence is violence".

All good points. And maybe I am hypocritical. My opinions on this are based more on emotion and gut-reaction than coherent logic!

I guess maybe this is what I'm getting at -- if TLC were to include guns in their police sets, I would feel like they're romanticizing, and perhaps even trivializing, the real-world threat posed by guns and street violence. By enabling kids to play cops-and-robbers with their mini-figs and toy guns, it would seem like they're making light of what is an actual, real problem. Things like Indiana Jones, Batman, Star Wars, pirates, knights, etc., don't exist, so they seem harmless. There's nothing to trivialize, because those things are pure fiction.

When my son (10 years old) plays with my Lego collection, his stories are always filled with violence. There's always good guys and bad guys, and stuff is blowing up. But, he's building these crazy robots with, like, 17 laser guns and a giant buzzsaw on the front. That doesn't bother me at all. But if, for example, he were playing "drug gangster," and he had thugs killing cops ... well, then we'd have to have a little talk about what's an appropriate story to act out.

Is it tasteless for real policeman to carry guns?

No, of course not. I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to make THAT argument. That would be a whole new debate!

This has been a very interesting thread!! It's nice that we can have discussions like this on a politically loaded topic like guns, and everyone is very polite and civil, even when we disagree.

[Rijkvv]

@ Klaus-Dieter: Mostly I agree with you. I wouldn't have trouble with military LEGO, but I respect the opinion of TLG. Maybe UN sets would be possible, but if they don't want it, I respect it.

-a police tank

Something like the Dutch YPR-765 KMar (for Crowd- and Riot-control) or the Dutch YPR-765 AAV (used for storming hijacked planes)? They're not exactly tanks, however, they are used by the military police. And maybe the word 'military' can be a reason for TLG to not release something like that.

For the weapons of the police officers: I never wondered why the policemen never had arms. Maybe as a very young kid I didn't even know. A police officer without a gun is not as strange as a knight without a sword or crossbow. Maybe it's an idea to fit the agents with batons: not as violent as a gun, but the policemen don't have to arrest people with only handcuffs?

[Munkay]

I don't really find it OK in any theme, but the reality is in the licensed themes, if they have guns in the source material there is a huge pressure for TLG to replicate that in the sets. Since the licensed themes are financially important for Lego I can hardly complain that they try and do them well.

Agreed. i too believe that if the TLG decides to take on a licensed theme its their duty to re-create that theme with as much detail as possible. If that means modern day weaponry, then so be it. But many will (and have) glorified the use of weapons in their favorite licensed theme's in the past, as well as fans of violent video games.

I think I have a right to expect their most successful theme (town) to continue to be gun free, since it has worked up to now, and as you say the violence is encroaching on every other theme. Just because 'violence is violence' it doesn't need to be everywhere. Can't those of us that remember and value TLG's original goals of imaginative non-violent toys have one small area not overtaken by guns? I do feel strongly about weapons in my Lego sets, that's a large reason I don't collect a lot of other themes apart from train/town.

Besides those that want violence can easily arm their police using the licensed weapons already.

I admire your values and your feeling on this matter. Though I'm not really sure if i agree that you have a "right" to expect a gun free town/city theme. In all its TLG decision on what they want to do and though many believe that TLG has a so called "No violence policy", no one has really been able to provide written evidence of this.

True, the town/city theme has been doing just fine without them for 30+ yrs, (at least to us), but you never know what the future will hold. I doubt that including guns with Police would hurt, or really benefit TLG from a financial standpoint, but with the completion doing it, TLG might feel it necessary to respond.

I admire your values and your feeling on this matter.

I guess maybe this is what I'm getting at -- if TLC were to include guns in their police sets, I would feel like they're romanticizing, and perhaps even trivializing, the real-world threat posed by guns and street violence. By enabling kids to play cops-and-robbers with their mini-figs and toy guns, it would seem like they're making light of what is an actual, real problem. Things like Indiana Jones, Batman, Star Wars, pirates, knights, etc., don't exist, so they seem harmless. There's nothing to trivialize, because those things are pure fiction.

I see what your getting at and i do understand your concern as a parent. But at some point, its going to be up to the child (with the help of the parents of course) to differentiate fiction with reality. Kids have been playing cops and robbers for years. In a sense, its kind of in their nature. How they play is largely affected on how they portray their local law enforcement. Kids today are smarter than they ever have been. The amount of technology thats available to them is almost endless compared to what many of us had when we were young.

I guess what I'm getting --- Kids are exposed to violence on a daily basis. Its almost completely impossible to shield them from the every day world now-a-days.I personally, don't see TLG "romanticizing" the real world if they gave their police weapons, but i could understand the concern. The local media (at least here in the U.S.) seem to focus on the negative more than the positive aspects of law enforcement. I have family that works in law enforcement, so i know their purpose and what they try to accomplish every time they put on the uniform.

When my son (10 years old) plays with my Lego collection, his stories are always filled with violence. There's always good guys and bad guys, and stuff is blowing up. But, he's building these crazy robots with, like, 17 laser guns and a giant buzzsaw on the front. That doesn't bother me at all. But if, for example, he were playing "drug gangster," and he had thugs killing cops ... well, then we'd have to have a little talk about what's an appropriate story to act out..

I can respect that. Personally, i don't see many kids acting out that kind of a scenario. But I suppose the possibility does present itself. But to be honest, just having a police force opens up all types of situations that officers have to deal with. Its really up to the child on what he wants to act out. It would be interesting to perform a study with children. In one room give kids a police station and have their "force" armed with a few hand guns and a traditional robber. In the other room have a traditional Police station with no weapons. Let them play for an hour or so and see what stories each group of kids act out.

This has been a very interesting thread!! It's nice that we can have discussions like this on a politically loaded topic like guns, and everyone is very polite and civil, even when we disagree.

Agreed! I really enjoy these type of topics. This thread could have gone south very easily, but i think everyone has done a great job of expressing their views but keeping things civil. It does no one any good by yelling and screaming.

[Delta 38]

Well, I'd like to see (official, thanks) weaponry in sets. I'm not sure how it would fit in city sets, though.

I'd much rather have some separate military theme to fill that role. It wouldn't work if the police suddenly got rocket launchers to deal with robberies (which aren't even armed robberies, anyway).

[Makuta Plasmix]

I dont know if these things have been said before, but look at Star Wars. Star Wars is like the lego war theme. Lego has many unrealistic themes with guns, so why cant the police have pistols? Im not asking for rocket launchers and AR50's and all that, all there needs to be are pistols or other weapons of intimidation. There is a robber in the city. What do you do? Wait for the handcuffs to walk over, punch the guy, and jump on his arms? No! You intimidate him with the gun and wait for him to give up. Im a 10 year old boy and I love to include violence in my scenearios. In fact, there has not been one mission without guns and death that I can remember. Furthermore, I would start actually buying police sets if they included pistols. I dont remember EVER having 1 pistol in my small collection. Pathetic,isnt it. Just pathetic.

[Broken Bricks]

I have to say I am surprised by the number of negative replies as well as some of the justifications given.

Lego sets with no weapons promote peace?

Giving guns to minifigs would be endorsing violence?

I think that's absurd. Whether or not Lego makes sets with weapons has absolutely no impact in real life.

As an AFOL, I personally do not care that much about the issue, but as someone was once a kid fan of LEGO, I think weapons would be a great addition to the theme! It adds a lot of playability!

I don't know about the rest of you, but as little kid, most of my playing with LEGO involved gunfights. I remember I used make my own pistols, machine guns and even grenades. It was a lot fun!

And yes, as a kid you are able to distinguish fantasy from reality. Whenever I played like that, I was often emulating the action movies from the late 80s early 90s (Die Hard, Terminator, etc...). It was like directing my own "LEGO movie." But I knew all that was far from reality...

The bottom line is: kids like adventure, they like action, they like competition, they like good vs. evil stories! That's why they like Star Wars, Harry Potter, or Batman. But they are also able to separate that from personal experience, even is it's in a non-fantasy context.

Parenting is the true determining factor in the development of a kid's character. To claim that keeping guns off of LEGO sets promotes peace is, in my opinion, a naive and completely invalid argument for this discussion.

BTW, for the record, I am as a non-violent person as you'll ever meet, and I am in favor of strict gun regulations...in the real world of course, not in a fictional universe

[peterab]

I admire your values and your feeling on this matter. Though I'm not really sure if i agree that you have a "right" to expect a gun free town/city theme. In all its TLG decision on what they want to do and though many believe that TLG has a so called "No violence policy", no one has really been able to provide written evidence of this.

The no violence policy is beyond dispute, that's why you dont see 'written evidence' of it. It is very well documented, both in quotes from the Lego founder and his son. I understand some of them are even on the walls of the imagination centre in Bilund. It's also corroborated in interviews with Lego designers. Some of them made tank models but had to hide them from their managers and the CEO, since they knew they would never be approved, so they would be viewed as a waste of company time. If you're interested you can probably find such things online pretty easily. It's only recently since TLG's finacial troubles that that policy has changed.

[KotZ]

I totally agree that it all comes down to parenting. Guns are not something to take lightly, but they are extremely useful in the LEGO world. First, we need to step away from bringing the licensed themes into the discussion because, well, they're the licensed themes! They are not LEGO's brain-children, and if any complaints in violnece are wanted, take it up with Disney, Spielberg, or Lucas. But I can hear people say "but it's TLG's choice to use those themes!"

Yes, it is their choice, but look at the times. It started with Star Wars, all because of an economic downturn for the company. They needed something to jumpstart it again. Now they are milking licensed themes (maybe no to the fullest extent, for some, such as IJ, loads of more possibilities) and kids love it!

But as I see it, this discussion is not just about Town and City, but the rest of LEGO themes as well. Of course, if LEGO started having a line called "Drug Cartel: Goody Guy Takedown", and have a set called "Smuggler's Day" where 'Drug Lord #3' is smuggling drugs and killing cops, then I would have serious concerns about TLG's employees mental help, and might switch over to Playmobil a bit more.

So, I guess I'm reiterating what I said before, guns would be great for CITY sets, leave the kids to create their own stories. If I wanted to make a story about Drug Lords, I'm sure I would, but why would I do that? That's weird.

Now I wouldn't have a problem with an Al Capone line though.... hmm

[Capt.JohnPaul]

If I wanted to make a story about Drug Lords, I'm sure I would, but why would I do that? That's weird.

Now I wouldn't have a problem with an Al Capone line though.... hmm

This IS getting a little weird...... After reading discussions I would like a 'militairy' theme with tanks and such. I'm not really impressed with TLG.

World racers: I might get one.

Atlantis: Got a whole bunch already.

SW: ewww..... I like SW, but I hate the Clone Wars.

HF: cheap bionicle things

Toy Story: Not much of a fan.

PoP: Need money to buy bigger sets.

City: Not really wanting them.

Minifig collectibles: SOLD OUT in my area, haven't seen series 2.

So, I think LEGO needs some more "Pizaz" and "Pop".

EDIT: As pizaz in pop meaning more action and adventure, I'm fine with guns as long it doesn't say anything about shooting them or anything unless it has a working function. (pirates firing cannon 2009/2010, it actually fired bricks.)

Edited August 10, 2010 by Capt.JohnPaul

[The Soup Nazi]

Im a 10 year old boy

Uh, (sir?), aren't you a little to young to join Eurobricks?

Anyway, I voted no. Why? Because I like the peaceful city theme. But if they made Lego Military...

Edited August 12, 2010 by The Soup Nazi