Hobbes

The Future of the 9V System

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Since there were many discussions in lots of message boards going on about the future of the 9V system, LEGO Ambassadors were authorized to inform the online community. Here's a post from 1000steine from the German ambassador. The discussion is in German but he left the original english lines (in italic) in his post to avoid translation errors:

What LEGO Ambassadors can tell us about the 9V system

Dear LEGO Ambassadors,

We have read some comments on different forums where people express their concerns and ask questions about the future of the current 9v LEGO Train system.

At the moment we can only share few details about this as we are still finalizing the plan for what we call the "LEGO Hobby Train" which will be based on the current 9v system.

We will continue to sell the current 9v system including the train motor, metal tracks and the speed regulator through LEGO Shop@Home and LEGO Brand Retail only, from mid 2006.

In early 2007 the decision will be made - based on sales performance of the 9v system during the fall of 2006 - if we will continue the 9v System with metal rails after 2007.

We will release more information about the "LEGO Hobby Train" project in August 2006 at the latest.

Hopefully this information will ease your concerns for now.

Steve and Jan

LEGO Community Development Team

-- steve witt

Community Relations Coordinator

LEGO Community Team

A few rough translations of what's going on in that discussion:

Jan Beyer (Jake's counterpart in Europe) says:

  • He's working on making clear how important the 9V system is. He can't decide, though.
  • It's in the hands of the AFOL community to show how important it is to them.
  • There were/would be major investments to keep the system going.

Not everybody liked what he said. Here's roughly what the community said:

  • It sounds like LEGO's clearing out their stock.
  • It sounds like LEGO wants AFOLs to hoard 9V stuff.
  • Some complain about how they're supposed to show their interest if it's so hard to get. There's almost only S@H (in 2007 only), some TRUs, almost no local store, no new sets since 2004/early 2005, and almost everything sold out on S@H. And if they can't get "enough" sales won't look that good although interest is there.
  • Some don't believe that major investments are necessary to keep a theme going but rather to push something new: the new train system. And that was LEGO's "decision" not the AFOLs', so it's unfair to "put it on their shoulders".
  • Everybody's more or less annoyed by this non-information that LEGO sells as information all the time.

I think that was all...

Edited by xwingyoda

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Since there were many discussions in lots of message boards going on about the future of the 9V system, LEGO Ambassadors were authorized to inform the online community. Here's a post from 1000steine from the German ambassador. The discussion is in German but he left the original english lines (in italic) in his post to avoid translation errors:

What LEGO Ambassadors can tell us about the 9V system

A few rough translations of what's going on in that discussion:

Jan Beyer (Jake's counterpart in Europe) says:

  • He's working on making clear how important the 9V system is. He can't decide, though.
  • It's in the hands of the AFOL community to show how important it is to them.
  • There were/would be major investments to keep the system going.

Not everybody liked what he said. Here's roughly what the community said:

  • It sounds like LEGO's clearing out their stock.
  • It sounds like LEGO wants AFOLs to hoard 9V stuff.
  • Some complain about how they're supposed to show their interest if it's so hard to get. There's almost only S@H (in 2007 only), some TRUs, almost no local store, no new sets since 2004/early 2005, and almost everything sold out on S@H. And if they can't get "enough" sales won't look that good although interest is there.
  • Some don't believe that major investments are necessary to keep a theme going but rather to push something new: the new train system. And that was LEGO's "decision" not the AFOLs', so it's unfair to "put it on their shoulders".
  • Everybody's more or less annoyed by this non-information that LEGO sells as information all the time.

I think that was all...

Man, I'd be pissed if I was a train fan.

When you think about it, no other area of lego can have this much of a problem. Take technic, for example. They recently switched to the studless design. But all of the studless stuff is still compatible with the studded; you can join them together to your hearts content.

But with the trains... your old trains won't run on the new track. As your old engines die... you won't be able to replace them. This sucks.

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Well DUH!

Why on earth would TLC take the risk of creating a whole new train system (presumably in the long run it will be more cost effective and profitable, perhaps more features than the current system) and then sabotage their own sales of this new system by keeping the old system going and thereby drawing away from the sales of the new.

It is important to listen to one's customer base, and I think Lego is trying to do that within the limits of profitability not being impaired.

However, the most basic way to create new sales of an established product is to "new and improve" it. I am sure that the 10-30% (wild guess) of train sales that come from AFOLs with established collections are not as important to TLCs profits than new sales from moms and dads, uncles and grandfathers who are trolling the aisles of toy stores to find gift for their children.

We can all whine about stuff we don't like from TLC until we are old and "gray", or "Bley", but at the end of the day if TLC becomes unprofitable and bought out by megabloks, no one will be happy.

I have only one other word to add

MECCANO

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However, the most basic way to create new sales of an established product is to "new and improve" it. I am sure that the 10-30% (wild guess) of train sales that come from AFOLs with established collections are not as important to TLCs profits than new sales from moms and dads, uncles and grandfathers who are trolling the aisles of toy stores to find gift for their children.

Exactly!

The problem many AFOLs have is that TLC just won't admit that. They don't dare say "Alright, we made a decision. If we keep a train line it has to be more accessible to our customers. And unfortunately we have to cancel 9V."

That would make a HUGE stir in the AFOL community - but it would be honest (what TLC said they wanted to be with the community). And AFOLs would know where they stand and what to do and where to look for their train stuff.

Right now it's been vague, vague, vague, contradictions, lame excuses, vague, vague. And that pisses ppl off...

PS: As far as I remember reading somewhere the AFOL market is way below 10 %...

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PS: As far as I remember reading somewhere the AFOL market is way below 10 %...

I would guess that trains are much more an AFOL thing than other lines.

No question, TLC is between a rock and a hard place on this one. You can't make all the people happy all the time for all time.

There is going to be a price to be paid for angering hard core Lego AFOLs. Some may quit "in a tizzy" because of it. But in the final analysis the impact will be insignificant compared to the impact of new sales, new functionality, and new "future AFOLs" ( the kids of today who will become AFOLs)

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I'm a huge collector of 9V trains (sets, track, etc.), but when Lego first intruduced the new RC system and assured us that, "we'll have play trains for the kids but keep the 9V for the hobbyists (AFOL) and metal rail will continue in bulk, I was reluctant to believe this. Why would they have both systems running parallel, one much more costly than the other? (at least track).

At my local TRU today, I was fortunate to run into a Lego rep who I asked, "is the 9V line being discontinued"? She said that there has been much discussion re. whether or not to keep the 9V system and she's not sure the future of the line". The new trains are due out in August by the way, according to her.

I would really hate to see the 9V system eliminated, but not surprised that Lego would do this to us loyal train collectors. Lego is interested in dollars, and kids, their primary market, aren't in to trains. AFOL are a secondary market as demonstrated by Lego time and time again.

In any case, I think the future of the 9V system looks bleak and don't be surprised if Lego SAH deep discounts all the 9V sets to eliminate remaining stock. :-(

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TLC rep acting like politicians ? naaahh that would NEVER happen. Maybe we could ask Steve about this, he is our own dedicated Lego Rep after all.

As for the 9v system, I think the real problem is that the 9V system is only used in the train sets today. Years ago, they were poping up into city and space and of course, technic sets. I think that if they usde the infra red in other themes, then it'll be a good move, but I'm afraid they won't *sad*

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Someone on 1000steine said, "Why worry? I always built 12V. That system's been gone for 15 years and it's still available."

Well, there's some truth in that: ebay.de is full of 12V stuff.

I think 9V will disappear as an "official line", but secondary channels won't seize that soon. However, it might be a good idea to start stocking a bit, especially track, motors and base plates, so that if there are nice new play train models one can convert them into real trains...

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Well the new train system looks as real to me as the old one lol. I'm not worried at all by the change in fact. I have load of 9v tracks, 3 9v trains, and I'm ready to go on witht he new system. The tracks are compatible, and I hope they'll release battery packs to convert my old trains. Now my main concern is what they are going to do with the new system. It would be cool if they could release light, automatic road crossings and this kind of stuff (that existed before the 9v system)

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TLC rep acting like politicians ? naaahh that would NEVER happen. Maybe we could ask Steve about this, he is our own dedicated Lego Rep after all.

I was basing my comments on Jake's keynote/Larry Pieniazek's comments back in August re. the new play train line re. the future of metal rails:

So what about "hobby trains"?

Metal rails are not going away.

Jake also announced that LEGO Factory is going live 25 August. Design your set

in LDD, get fulfilled with your design or one you choose from the Lego factory

site.

There will soon be an additional palette for trains...

LEGO factory is a platform. So... hobby train designs will be done with LEGO

TRAIN factory. Choose the palette, design the model in LDD, get fulfilled via a

new supply chain, and models are shipped to consumer.

While there will not be a complete palette initially, the elements in the

palette will be added over time.

The whole thread: Jake's Keynote re. New Play Train

This may not have been the correct thread, but I read more from Jake's initial keynote that said basically, Lego would have two train lines (one for the kids (play train) and one for the hobbyists).

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OK, I did a little research on Lugnet and found this message, a current status of the 9V system:

From Lugnet, 9v Train Status Report, Eric Kingsley, March 30, 2006 9V Status Report

OK, we have been given a limited amount of information that we have been authorized to share. Now I am a fan first and Ambassador second so I am going to give you all the nuts and bolts first. After that I am going to break down each statement as I see it. Finally I am going to present an initial plan for how we, the fans can influance the fate of 9v trains.

First, what we have been authorized to release.

1. LEGO is still finalizing the plan for what they call the LEGO Hobby Train which will be based on the current 9v system.

2. LEGO will continue to sell the current 9v system including the train motor, metal tracks and the speed regulator through LEGO Shop at Home and LEGO Brand Retail only, from mid 2006.

3. In early 2007 the decision will be made

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2. LEGO will continue to sell the current 9v system including the train motor, metal tracks and the speed regulator through LEGO Shop at Home and LEGO Brand Retail only, from mid 2006.

3. In early 2007 the decision will be made

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I would recommend that the 9V collectors start buying motors and track now because the writing is on the walll. I don't think they'll be around long at all (and we'll be forced to buy on Ebay for double to triple the value).

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Problem is, track is pretty expensive here (€17.49 compared to US$12.99). I kinda rely on ebay already where I got all my current track a lot cheaper than in stores. And buying 100 straight track packs still is an expense of €1749.00 (or US$1299.00 if I happen to be in the States again with a huge empty suitcase)...

Edit: I just saw that curved track are sold out at S@H Austria. Now, I don't need that many but how am I supposed to show "support" when it's already gone? It's not even fall yet...

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I don't think we can really comment on what LEGO will do with the current system, that is what they are trying to say. Nothing is certain yet, so lets not jump to the conclusion that we are al going to need to stock up or anything like that.

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O.K., now, get this site passed about all other forums you know with LEGO fans on it, and we might be onto stopping LEGO from making huge mistake.

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As always, it also helps to contact Lego Customer Service by E-Mail to complain. In fact, it's important that you do so if you want to see them continue 9V.

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However guys - I'd hate to disappoint you - but it's clear that 9V is simply no longer viable. I mean, with Mindstorms moving onto NXT, with a totally new form of electric motor, the concept of the trains still running on the antiquated 9V system is highly inviable. There's little/ nothing we can do - Lego want to axe the 9V trains. To be honest, a part from a few disgruntled cutomers, it will not make a huge difference to their sales. I know this - because I work at Legoland Windsor's Big Shop, and see the trains on the shop floor. We'll be lucky to sell more than two track packs, or a single train a day. And, sadly, this dead space is useless - we're much better stocking up with Star Wars Lego, Exo Force or Bionicles - because the bottom line is they sell. The fact that Lego is still selling a 15 year old system is testament to the fact that it believes it should continue compatability for customers. But after 15 years, is it not time to see it go? After all, precedent was given in the "bley" case - Lego doesn't give a monkeys in real terms to AFOLS - if the children want something, they get it. They're Lego's true customers. Another precedent is th 12V Lego railways change - albeit relatively easier with a lower installation base in the customers than the current 9V system.

However, I see a real problem occuring because the trains are infra red - ie line of sight communications must be maintained. I do see this being a severe problem - because children will not be able to control their trains around their cities, full of buildings etc.

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I think this is disheartening, but much like other running changes LEGO has made in recent years, there is little or nothing we as fans can do about it, other than support the current 9V system while its still available. The fact that they haven't finalized the Hobby Train as a mainstay is not a good sign. Still, I don't think any amount of fan support or protest will make a difference. Of course, I appreciate that we are getting more communication from TLG these days, rather than being completely blind sided like we've been with other changes (Grey/Bley).

As others have said, I don't think that the 9V system is viable. It certainly is too costly for fans like myself. Considering that it costs upwards of $1000 to set up a decent layout, this is clearly not a hobby for children. And that's part of the problem. I don't think there is alot of incentive for the powers that be to keep the 9V system on the market. Appealing to a few AFOLs simply doesn't cut it. When all is said and done, I think LEGO is simply afraid to admit that the 9V system is on its last legs.

Later.

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I think the real issue with 9V trains is not so much the price or the fact that a new RC system will allow more expansion and/or capabilities; it's just that trains are no longer popular with children (Lego or otherwise). It is disappointing but Birdie's comments about Lego trains taking up shelf space while the other themes are moving is probably true.

I don't think price is really an issue at all and based on the recent pricing of the new cargo train due out in August, I doubt that an all plastic track and RC system will be cheaper than 9V. We're fighting for the 9V system, but we may have to fight for Lego to continue the train theme down the road (or track).

Lego should consider making some new movie trains, like the Polar Express, a 9V Thomas Railway, a Gotham subway train, and other adventure trains that might appeal to kids who like Batman and Bionicle. It's time Lego starts looking at other train ideas, Christmas/Holiday trains, an animal/circus train. Lehman Toy Trains/LGB have made a wide variety of different engines and cars for younger children over the years (like an exploding dynamite car, dinosaur, aquarium car, etc.) while they continue to offer very detailed and realistic engines and cars. It's time Lego does the same offering more than just a cargo and passenger train.

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I think the real issue with 9V trains is not so much the price or the fact that a new RC system will allow more expansion and/or capabilities; it's just that trains are no longer popular with children (Lego or otherwise). It is disappointing but Birdie's comments about Lego trains taking up shelf space while the other themes are moving is probably true.

I'm not sure about that. Sure, getting a single train isn't that expensive. Buying more track, a regulator and an extra motor is. This is a toy aimed exclusively at well-to-do families. Expansion is great, but for most buyers it is simply not going to happen. It has been my experience that children don't spend large sums of money buying track in bulk. A child can get two or three different Batman sets for the price of a single train. If that same child wants to expand his railway, it will cost even more! The new system, with its all-plastic rails is undoubtedly cheaper. It likely means that LEGO will make more money on each unit sold (which is very important on a product that doesn't move in large quantities).

I don't think price is really an issue at all and based on the recent pricing of the new cargo train due out in August, I doubt that an all plastic track and RC system will be cheaper than 9V. We're fighting for the 9V system, but we may have to fight for Lego to continue the train theme down the road (or track).

Again, I believe that price is a major issue. Just because the system is cheaper to make, doesn't mean that LEGO will automatically pass those savings onto the consumer. I'm sure LEGO has done its market research. I simply don't think that trains (LEGO or otherwise) have the pull to compete with more popular branding (notably licenced products like Star Wars).

Lego should consider making some new movie trains, like the Polar Express, a 9V Thomas Railway, a Gotham subway train, and other adventure trains that might appeal to kids who like Batman and Bionicle. It's time Lego starts looking at other train ideas, Christmas/Holiday trains, an animal/circus train. Lehman Toy Trains/LGB have made a wide variety of different engines and cars for younger children over the years (like an exploding dynamite car, dinosaur, aquarium car, etc.) while they continue to offer very detailed and realistic engines and cars. It's time Lego does the same offering more than just a cargo and passenger train.

I'm not sure that this would draw alot of buyers. Ultimately, Batman isn't closely associated with Gotham transit. When kids think of Batman, they think of his Batmobile, his Batwing and his Batcave. Even if a train has the name "Batman" on the box, I think its going to have alot of trouble competing with the staples of the franchise. The other trains you've mentioned are even more obscure. The Polar Express (a nice children's book to be sure) was a bomb at the boxoffice. Your other suggestions, while potentially interesting, don't necessarily offset the more popular and affordable sets on the market.

I agree that new trains would be nice, however I don't think that they are going to make any inroads into the market. The train community is a niche (children and adults). I just don't know how you can make a system like this affordable enough to be popular. Whatever LEGO's reasoning for dropping the 9V system, I'm sure that money was a major consideration.

Later.

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I have to agree with what was said about trains not being that popular anymore. Back in the day (meaning 70s and 80s, when I grew up) trains had a certain fascination and (especially) boys were happy when they found a model train under the christmas tree. We didn't have much distraction, though. No video games, no computers or the like (and if just a few). Even TV wasn't that big a competition.

Nowadays a train is... just a train. I grew up across my home town's train station, my grandfather and dad worked for our federal railway (today it isn't federal anymore, which added to its unattractiveness), trains were part of our life. Back then I knew every engine model that existed by heart and could distinguish them by their headlights at night!

Today? I still like trains, but even to me they've lost some touch. Lots of new engine models - and I don't know any of 'em. I visited Hamburg's "Miniaturwunderland" a month ago, the world's largest model train layout. The layout was very cool, it had a few very nice touches, but I noticed that the most uninteresting part was - the trains...

With all the distractions and competition that exist today I can believe that model trains are not popular with kids anymore, as hard as this might be. On the other hand model trains are more popular than ever with - dads (recent European study). How come? Well, I dunno but I guess those dads are us, those who grew up liking trains. Unfortunately we're not the target group for toy companies...

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Save 9V Trains!

A LEGO Ambassadors' website... now I know what them ambassadors do ;-)

To reply to myself: I just found they sell quite some apparel. Might even get some for myself, it's for good cause afterall *sweet*

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i think there are several other elements involved:

1) kids don't have the money to get lots of trains. actual model trains, like HO scale, are really expensive and lego trains aren't cheap either...

2) you need lots of space to have a decent layout and many kids don't have long term space for these things, unlike adults. Adults very often have an extra room in their own house to build a layout. Kids usually have their own sleeping room, but that's it. some even have a room for all the toys, but that turns into a room for the computer,... when they get older. Very often you also don't know as a kid if model trains is something you're gonna do for the rest of your life. You usually have that answer by the time you have a house of your own, a wife, a family...

3) Let's face it, trains are no longer part of the kid's world. Lego technic has exactly the same problem. I just talked to a shopkeeper and he told me that he's not going to buy Lego technic anymore because it just doesn't sell anymore. the lego stuff for older kids, like trains, technic,... has just fallen off the radar... At the same time, lego has indicated they will focus on smaller kids, aged between 1-12. all the rest, including us, afols, are just small market sections not really worth the investment... That hurts, but it is the way it is...

4) I think the only way out for trains is to completely integrate it with city. a set with a construction crane and a cargo train would be cool...

5) I also think there's a problem with the models they're producing. They're just not attractive and too big, making them even more expensive. they should also decrease prices of the tracks,...

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