Eurobricks Target Age Group

[Davey]

I really think that pretty much everything that can be said has been in this thread. In the end, this Eurobricks is not a democracy. It's owned and operated by a certain group of people and they alone make the rules. If the rest of us don't like those rules, we don't have to be a part of the community. I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. Whether the Mods delete a MOC is up to their interpretation of the 'rules and terms' and we as community members need to deal with it. If that doesn't work for you, you always have the option of starting your own site.

Mods/Admins make the rules. Case closed.

-Davey

[Big Cam]

I really think that pretty much everything that can be said has been in this thread. In the end, this Eurobricks is not a democracy. It's owned and operated by a certain group of people and they alone make the rules. If the rest of us don't like those rules, we don't have to be a part of the community. I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. Whether the Mods delete a MOC is up to their interpretation of the 'rules and terms' and we as community members need to deal with it. If that doesn't work for you, you always have the option of starting your own site.

Mods/Admins make the rules. Case closed.

-Davey

Well said.

[Jipay]

I really think that pretty much everything that can be said has been in this thread. In the end, this Eurobricks is not a democracy. It's owned and operated by a certain group of people and they alone make the rules. If the rest of us don't like those rules, we don't have to be a part of the community. I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. Whether the Mods delete a MOC is up to their interpretation of the 'rules and terms' and we as community members need to deal with it. If that doesn't work for you, you always have the option of starting your own site.

Mods/Admins make the rules. Case closed.

-Davey

It's a little bit more complicated you see. If people never raised any debate, we wouldn't progress, nor adjust to culture changes.

[def]

It's a little bit more complicated you see. If people never raised any debate, we wouldn't progress, nor adjust to culture changes.

I'm very happy to see this post. I was going to reply to the one you did saying something similar, but was worried a mod might come in and shut it down and prove me wrong

I totally think the admin have the final word, but it's healthy for a forum to allow the users join in the discussion about the place they frequent once in a while.

Yes, very glad to see this post indeed.

[peterab]

I'm very happy to see this post. I was going to reply to the one you did saying something similar, but was worried a mod might come in and shut it down and prove me wrong

I totally think the admin have the final word, but it's healthy for a forum to allow the users join in the discussion about the place they frequent once in a while.

Yes, very glad to see this post indeed.

I agree, the main reason the Lugnet community splintered, is due to the censorship of this sort of disscussion. It's fine for the admins to set the rules, and enforce them, but the users also must understand those rules. Without the ability to question them this is more difficult.

[Sandy]

In the end, this Eurobricks is not a democracy. It's owned and operated by a certain group of people and they alone make the rules. If the rest of us don't like those rules, we don't have to be a part of the community. I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. Whether the Mods delete a MOC is up to their interpretation of the 'rules and terms' and we as community members need to deal with it. If that doesn't work for you, you always have the option of starting your own site.

Adding to Jipay's words, this place is not a dictatorship, either. This site is not meant for just the admins and mods, it's for the whole community to enjoy. The staff makes up rules to ensure this place remains enjoyable to the target group, not just out of a whim. In other words, the staff tries to cater to everybody's needs, not just their own.

That's exactly why they should listen to the general userbase, and pick up things that could improve the community. Listening doesn't mean obeying, though.

I've always disliked this whole "if you don't like something, then leave" attitude, since it leaves little room for constructive feedback. You can't efficiently lead a community as big as this with arrogance and stubbornity.

[Davey]

I'll admit that I probably was a little harsh in my last post. Let's step back a minute...

I agree that the general user-base needs to express it's concerns and needs to be heard by the powers that be. That is certainly how a community grows and evolves. Censorship is never a good thing and I am by no means advocating any kind of censorship. In fact...just the opposite. What I am getting at is that when the general community is split on an issue such as what we are discussing here, how do the Mods/Admins handle that? Do we just go around and around rehashing the same information as a community? At some point, someone has to make a decision and hopefully that decision will reflect what is best for the majority of the community. My point was that whatever decision is made, it will not please everyone. At that point, those who do not agree with the decision will have to live with the decision that has been made based on input from the community.

Again, I am totally in agreement that the community needs to be heard. But at some point a decision will be made based on that input and at that time we all need to live by that decision.

Sorry if I sounded a little fascist there. Not my intention at all.

-Davey

[Chris Phipson]

I can tell you right now that if you remove the age limit, you are just asking for trouble. We're dealing with a situation over on MOCPages (a site that admittedly is more targeted at kids) where AFOL's are posting MOC's that contain adult humor (with a warning in the title of the MOC) and the younglings are getting all bent out of shape over it because "children browse that site and shouldn't see those type of things". So my contention is that if you remove the age limit, you will be asking for the same type of trouble over here.

By keeping this site 18+, it helps us to justify allowing pretty much any discussion or MOC post to be legal. If someone gripes about a youngling seeing a post, we can point to the 18+ rule and that is the end of it. I come to EB because it's an adult community where we can have intelligent discussion and not necessarily have to censor ourselves because there are younglings around. I fully support keeping this site in that format. As adults, we need an online clubhouse where we can be adults and EB fits the bill perfectly.

Just my $0.02 though.

-Dave

My first post here... hope this works right. ANYWAY...

I know this thread has gone a little off topic, but thought I should throw my hat in the mix here.

I'm a site moderator on MOCpages and I'm unfortunately the one in the middle of the whole situation that Dave is talking about here. Long story short, one of our adult members posted a moc that was intended for mature readers. He posted warnings and "Do not read this if you are under 18" all over the top of it to warn the kids that may see it that this was a mautre themed moc and not intended for them.

I won't get into a lot of the specifics of "who" did the complaining, let's just say it was a group of self righteous 12 year olds who think they have everything in life figured out. Now then, remember that Sean Kenney (The owner of MOCpages) has told us, his moderators, to give each member as much creative freedom as possible on thier posts. In the end, Sean himself decided to take the post down. The content of the post wasn't "explicit" and didn't actually show the acts it was inferring, but when you have 20 kids (and that's all it was, out of the 1,000 people that saw it, only 20) going on and on about what's approriate and what's not, eventually you have to placate them somehow.

NOW... here's the irony of this entire situation, and where my point was leading too all along...

These are the same kids who find no problems with blood, gore, violence and mass genocide. How do I know? Simple. Not only have I been TRYING to point this out to them in thread after thread, but I conducted an experiment of my own this past week. I posted a (please don't throw anything at me) Clone Wars moc.

I have a reputation on MOCpages as being the one with the "dirty jokes" and can always find the sexual innuendo in anything. The majority of my posts have some sort of joke like this in them. My latest endevor however, did not. It was a three part story of Clone Wars. In that story, I had characters go insane, commit mass murder, and finally, commit suicide. A few of these kids that preach about "inapproriate content for children" left comments saying how "wonderful it was" that I did a moc with no inapproriate content... Feel free to giggle now if you must.

Now then, since you know the back story, allow me to give my opinion on this topic.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT let this site become anything other than an adult oriented site! I joined here today after a long conversation with Dave about this. While I'm not going to be leaving MOCpages, it would be wonderful to be able to step into a place where I know I don't have to watch every single word I say because some kid might run and tell his mommy.

But yeah, Nadroj is cool. HAHAHAHA

Sorry to take up so much space on my first post, just had to get that off my chest.

[Jipay]

My first post here... hope this works right. ANYWAY...

I know this thread has gone a little off topic, but thought I should throw my hat in the mix here.

I'm a site moderator on MOCpages and I'm unfortunately the one in the middle of the whole situation that Dave is talking about here. Long story short, one of our adult members posted a moc that was intended for mature readers. He posted warnings and "Do not read this if you are under 18" all over the top of it to warn the kids that may see it that this was a mautre themed moc and not intended for them.

I won't get into a lot of the specifics of "who" did the complaining, let's just say it was a group of self righteous 12 year olds who think they have everything in life figured out. Now then, remember that Sean Kenney (The owner of MOCpages) has told us, his moderators, to give each member as much creative freedom as possible on thier posts. In the end, Sean himself decided to take the post down. The content of the post wasn't "explicit" and didn't actually show the acts it was inferring, but when you have 20 kids (and that's all it was, out of the 1,000 people that saw it, only 20) going on and on about what's approriate and what's not, eventually you have to placate them somehow.

NOW... here's the irony of this entire situation, and where my point was leading too all along...

These are the same kids who find no problems with blood, gore, violence and mass genocide. How do I know? Simple. Not only have I been TRYING to point this out to them in thread after thread, but I conducted an experiment of my own this past week. I posted a (please don't throw anything at me) Clone Wars moc.

I have a reputation on MOCpages as being the one with the "dirty jokes" and can always find the sexual innuendo in anything. The majority of my posts have some sort of joke like this in them. My latest endevor however, did not. It was a three part story of Clone Wars. In that story, I had characters go insane, commit mass murder, and finally, commit suicide. A few of these kids that preach about "inapproriate content for children" left comments saying how "wonderful it was" that I did a moc with no inapproriate content... Feel free to giggle now if you must.

Now then, since you know the back story, allow me to give my opinion on this topic.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT let this site become anything other than an adult oriented site! I joined here today after a long conversation with Dave about this. While I'm not going to be leaving MOCpages, it would be wonderful to be able to step into a place where I know I don't have to watch every single word I say because some kid might run and tell his mommy.

But yeah, Nadroj is cool. HAHAHAHA

Sorry to take up so much space on my first post, just had to get that off my chest.

You've been heard, don't worry. If a group of self righteous 12 year olds have a problem with an MOC, they might face mass murder (which they seem to like so much ).

All in all, this website will always remain dedicated to a mature audience, because this is how everyone is enjoying it. This is only way to bring quality content.

Clone Wars MOCs... This reminds me how hard is KimT's job moderating the star wars forum !

[Mister Phes]

It was first introduced because of some MOCs that were posted here, and then we had dozens of US kids screaming because they were offended.

Like the time I posted a link to a website with pictures of minifigures doing some rather interesting things

That thread even had moderators screaming and you ended up creating a minifigure gimp avatar - or was that Yoda?

Ahhhhh good times....

[Jipay]

Like the time I posted a link to a website with pictures of minifigures doing some rather interesting things

That thread even had moderators screaming and you ended up creating a minifigure gimp avatar - or was that Yoda?

Ahhhhh good times....

Yes that was me

[RocketClone]

Well i have something to say as well.

If hypothetically all members under the age of 18 were somehow removed, and there were just AFOLs (and AFFOLs at/over the age of 18) on the site, wouldn't that effect Eurobricks just a bit? I mean FBTB allows people at the age of 13 and over to join.

[peterab]

Well i have something to say as well.

If hypothetically all members under the age of 18 were somehow removed, and there were just AFOLs (and AFFOLs at/over the age of 18) on the site, wouldn't that effect Eurobricks just a bit? I mean FBTB allows people at the age of 13 and over to join.

Yeah it would affect Eurobricks, the quality of Mocs would be higher, the drama over adult themed Mocs would be lower, the quality of disscussion would be higher since the AFOLs wouldn't be as likely to be scared away, the jobs of moderators would be easier, and there might be less crapy spelling and LOLspeak. We would also lose a few very talented builders. That's why the rule is there, and the admins take a 'don't know, don't care' approach in inforcing it.

MOCpages is a good example of what happens when there is open slather access offered to kids, it becomes a place where few adults feel comfortable.

I think the number of inane questions, which show the poster hasn't read the preceding thread might also be less.

[MetroiD]

Yeah it would affect Eurobricks...

I know I promised not to start ranting in this thread again, but I just couldn't resist... peterab - !

This might sound harsh, but I know from personal experience just how true it is. In my desperate attempts to get the Bulgarian LUG going, I've seen other (weird-minded) AFOLs act like children and I must admit I was very disappointed, but not surprised. I have, however, also been called a "moran" (yes, not that same word - its equivalent in Bulgarian, but still fascinatingly misspelled) and an "idiot" online by 12-year olds who'd flooded the forum with "ZOMG LOOK AT MAI KOOL NEW ZOMBALIPTIC MOOOOC", just for asking them to write properly and use punctuation every once in a while. As you could have expected, it was a disappointing experience, but also hardly surprising.

That, however, doesn't mean I'm trying to put all 12-year olds in the same box. As peterab said, if we were to have an 18+ rule, we would lose a lot of funny and nice members, and quite a few talented builders. So as long as there's peace and order and this place is enjoyable for its members, I guess everything's in order.

Once again - sorry for the rant...

[Captain Zuloo]

Once again - sorry for the rant...

A rant perhaps, but also a valid statement. Peter and yourself are very correct, in that there would be a higher standard of things with a strict 18 + rule, but you would lose all exceptions to the standard which isn't always a good thing. But it is something that can never really be enforced. I think the EB staff do a fantastic job of keeping the exceptions in order.

[KimT]

Well i have something to say as well.

If hypothetically all members under the age of 18 were somehow removed, and there were just AFOLs (and AFFOLs at/over the age of 18) on the site, wouldn't that effect Eurobricks just a bit? I mean FBTB allows people at the age of 13 and over to join.

Enlighten me, what does FBTB has to do with Eurobricks?

Such a move as removing all under 18 would have an effect - we'd be fewer active members.

What's your point there?

Good or bad effect?

Loss of quality?

Site turning into a ghost town?

All actions result in effects- it's given.

What's that question again?

A rant perhaps, but also a valid statement. Peter and yourself are very correct, in that there would be a higher standard of things with a strict 18 + rule, but you would lose all exceptions to the standard which isn't always a good thing. But it is something that can never really be enforced. I think the EB staff do a fantastic job of keeping the exceptions in order.

What do you mean exceptions?

Exceptions to the standard? Which standard?

I'm not a native speaker of English and your phrase "exceptions to the standard" has got me a little puzzled.

[Trexxen]

KimT, I think he means that we'd lose the TFOL members on the site that are able to actively participate in discussions and be mature about it. (Sorry for answering for you, Zuloo! =P)

MetroiD and peterab are, to some extent, right; however, there are three problems with that rule. The first is, like Zuloo said, those TFOL exceptions that make the effort to get away from the stigma surrounding their age. Those people are living proof that age does NOT equal maturity; I've met preteens that are more capable of being respectful and contributing constructively than many adults, while I've met people well into their 20s and 30s that are incapable of finishing a sentence without messing it up badly. Secondly, as KimT pointed out, removing all the TFOLs from this site would get rid of a fairly significant portion of the members here. I'd hazard a guess that at least 20% of this forum is made up of TFOL members, and a good majority of them are great, insightful posters.

And then finally there's the main problem, which has been brought up time and time again in this thread: It's statistically impossible to tell whether or not someone is being truthful about their age online. I could say I'm ten years old or thirty years old; that doesn't make either of them true, and yet, I could feasibly pull off an impression of either depending on how I choose to post. Unless this site begins requiring legal document proof of age upon signup (and even then, you could just get someone else's or use a fake ID), there will never be a time where the community is solely 18+.

Oh, and just because I like irony (sorry peterab!):

and there might be less crapy spelling

~Trexxen

[Captain Zuloo]

What do you mean exceptions?

Exceptions to the standard? Which standard?

I'm not a native speaker of English and your phrase "exceptions to the standard" has got me a little puzzled.

What I meant was, Eurobricks currently has a standard sort of under 18 posting/MOCing etc. quality. The majority of TFOLs here don't spam the threads, but more often than not reply with comments that don't really make any impact on the discussion. There are however a few exceptions to this rule, and there are some TFOLs on here who post really well and have very talented building skills. These people are the exceptions, and it would not be fair to remove them from the site for the purpose of making it strictly 18+. At the same time, there are a number of adults who have displayed poor posting on here in the past too, so I think the current system of case-by-case maturity based assesment of members is better than any alternative. You guys are doing well.

[peterab]

Oh, and just because I like irony (sorry peterab!):

~Trexxen

It was bound to happen , despite English being my native language, my spelling is poor, so I carefully chose the word less in my rant In my defence at least I'm not doing it deliberately and I try to capitalise and punctuate correctly.

I think the fact the age rules are subtle, (ie intended audience is 18+, but if we can't tell from your behaviour then younger members will be tolerated) adds a reasonable test of maturity. If you don't get it, then you are probably not ready for Eurobricks :-)

[WesternOutlaw]

Site turning into a ghost town?

Ghost Town? Now is that such a bad thing? (just teasing)

Seriously though, I think the whole issue of kids in the forums goes back to adult members posting more often. I think the best way to create a "mature" community is to have interesting discussions and topics that create mature and intellectual conversations. Sure, we'll never be able to weed out kids due to the fact that LEGO is a toy first, but I think that some are more worried over policy than the purpose of the forums.

Just as kids spam topics, we as adults can counter the silly and frivolous nonsense by taking an active part in various topics. This sends a message that the forum(s) is/are an adult place. If more mature members are not posting because of kids, this will simply result in more kids running wild, thus creating a "viscous circle".

[posades]

Ghost Town? Now is that such a bad thing? (just teasing)

Seriously though, I think the whole issue of kids in the forums goes back to adult members posting more often. I think the best way to create a "mature" community is to have interesting discussions and topics that create mature and intellectual conversations. Sure, we'll never be able to weed out kids due to the fact that LEGO is a toy first, but I think that some are more worried over policy than the purpose of the forums.

Just as kids spam topics, we as adults can counter the silly and frivolous nonsense by taking an active part in various topics. This sends a message that the forum(s) is/are an adult place. If more mature members are not posting because of kids, this will simply result in more kids running wild, thus creating a "viscous circle".

What's this viscous circle you speak of (more viscous than molasses)?

I agree though, maturity doesn't always have to deal with inflammatory topics and graphic language. In fact I'd argue being mature is seeing past that and having intelligent discourse and constructive criticism, which for the most part already happens here.

[WesternOutlaw]

What's this viscous circle you speak of (more viscous than molasses)?

Vicious that is.

[Dutch]

I agree we would loss a lot of nice people and not to mention a certain decal designer if the mod's enforced the 18+ rule.

Just putting in my two brick's worth.

[Corvus]

This thread has certainly shown one thing: the people who have an opinion, are knowledgeable about it, and can very clearly express that opinion (with a few exceptions... viscous? )

Of course, this isn't the real reason why Siggy made the thread, but this topic has really provided a great example of why I joined Eurobricks in the first place. Members don't necissarily have to know each other, but a thread in which people take their time to post something, and respond to one another, quoting posts and actually creating a discussion. This is the sort of thread I like. It's much more enjoyable than the opposite- i.e., posts that are written for the sake of just being there, and very little discussion, just voices clamoring to be heard. But, I suppose I've been reading too many news topics.

This doesn't mean that it's just adults who are capable of this- far from it. This topic shows it. While I don't know everyone's age, there are people who have written here who have taken the responsibility to respond to issues that concern them and written their opinions on the matter.

This comes back to the argument that's been going on. Age doesn't necassarily determine who is capable of writing maturely. However, most of the people that are are adults. But, the '18 and up' rule doesn't seem as black and white as it is. As the staff say, they are trying to judge on a case by case basis. I've noticed, though, that kids who join an 18 or up site tend to be more quiet about their age, and are more careful to look mature. This seems to me to be a victory, even though kids didn't listen to the rules.

[posades]

Well said Mr. Mandalorian.

As much as I'd like for the rule to be black and white, I realize it's impossible with a community this large and the internet being what it is. I guess my whole gripe was the wording of the rule, but I can see a case by case working along with a "don't ask don't tell" policy.

Off topic: And it seems some of the mods aren't quite as "mature" as we make them out to be, considering one of them spelled legally wrong in your title (unless there's an inside joke in there I'm missing ).

Off topic #2: Love where you're 'from', Mr. Mandalorian. I prefer Vega myself, but I'll let you slide because being a star in the constellation Orion automatically makes it cool.