2010 Train Sets

[jamieberard]

Jamie, is it true the 8866 motor was aimed squarely at kids' trains (4 carriages 6x28), not as a drop-in replacement for the 9V train motor?

Is the 8866 motor produced in the same place as the 9V train motor was produced, or did the production site switch with the new motor?

I've found the 8866 motor overgeared and lacking torque compared to 9V train motors. This is a problem for AFOL trains and, ultimately, the take-up of PF trains in the AFOL communities.

Please would you pass this message on to the right people. Thanks.

Mark

Hi Mark,

I'm not familiar with the detailed workings of the 8866 motor in relation to the previous 9V train motor. However, I agree that the two motors seem to perform differently.

I'll try and chat with the tech guys the next time I'm over that way.

jamie

[Captain Zuloo]

BTW, what was the main purpose behind the research & development of PF engines for trains? Was it designed more with AFOL or KFOL in mind?

Can't say I'm really sure. If it was aimed at KFOLs, why are the parts so pricey, and if it was aimed at AFOLs, why leave 9v in the first place?

[Legoist]

Can't say I'm really sure. If it was aimed at KFOLs, why are the parts so pricey, and if it was aimed at AFOLs, why leave 9v in the first place?

I seem to remember that leaving 9v was also to make it cheaper. But maybe I'm wrong and it was just a consequence, that making battery-based trains meant non-electrified therefore cheaper tracks. Making it cheaper makes full sense if aimed at KFOLs, but might be not so important for AFOLs: on one side of course AFOLs too want cheaper Lego, but in the case of Trains it might not be welcome to switch from a system to another for those who already invested a lot (although luckily there is no problem running RC/PF trains on a 9v layout!).

The fact is that at the moment PF motorization is more expensive than 9v, while tracks are cheaper. If PF parts become cheaper later, once research costs have been covered and manufacturing improves, then PF will win, although I've read questions about PF performance.

(edit) At least it seems that everyone who has tried PF trains say that it is an improvement over RC, and the 2010 PF trains supposedly cost about the same as the RC train, so the change RC -> PF is almost certainly a good move.

Now the problem may be only left to AFOLs if PF doesn't work well for us, since 9v is out of production. There are of course other options, but it's natural that we wish for something useful to be in production, because only a few have the skills to make a custom motorization system, and older systems on the 2nd hand market might become more expensive.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Legoist

[legoboy3998]

If I may, it seems a lot of the complaints in terms of power are in regards to the PF train motor. and since most AFOLs have 9v motors couldnt you merely plug the 9v motor in place of the PF train motor and then youll have the proper gearing.

for those a little more technical, what about re gearing the PF train motor? i would think it might be possible

Sal

WFB, WI

[Brickthus]

If I may, it seems a lot of the complaints in terms of power are in regards to the PF train motor. and since most AFOLs have 9v motors couldnt you merely plug the 9v motor in place of the PF train motor and then youll have the proper gearing.

for those a little more technical, what about re gearing the PF train motor? i would think it might be possible

Sal

WFB, WI

1. 9V train motors are obsolete; motors have a finite life so they will not work for ever and replacements will be required. AFOLs who run 9V trains now will eventually have to run PF trains.

2. You can never have enough train motors because you will always build more trains. Changing motors between trains is not an option at a show, especially if the trains hide under the scenery!

3. Recent entrants into the AFOL train community would like to build trains compatible with those of longer-established AFOL train builders. They have no 9V train motors, so have to use PF ones. Not all trains can use the medium or XL motors.

4. There are instances where a 9V train could use PF train motors at the back, if the gearing were the same. It makes the train electrically as long as the first carriage (enabling sectional operation in 9V mode) whilst reducing the drag in the curves from longer or heavier trains. My Pendolino has 4 motors, 2 of which could become PF motors if they were drop-in replacements. For US trains, the A unit could have 2 9V motors and each B unit 2 PF motors if the gearing were the same.

5. It's not just about gearing. It's the electrical characteristics of the internal motor - its electrical impedance, speed regulation and torque at a given speed. The torque and speed curves need to match and the same increase in load for a given voltage needs to result in the same change of speed and the same current drawn from the supply. PF train motors get thirsty more quickly, causing the PF LiPo battery to trip its overcurrent trip. PF train motors are not only incompatible with 9V train motors, they are unsuitable for the AFOL train application.

6. Re-gearing the motor or changing its characteristics should be done by the professionals. It is part of product design. A £10 motor is not worth anything if I have to buy new gears and put in the hours to re-gear it! Especially if the operation is required for over 50 motors! LEGO train motors should remain an off-the-shelf item. Very few modellers of other train scales and gauges rebuild their own motors! Besides, we want all the motors to be compatible in an expanding community. A bespoke solution is not the answer.

Mark

[CP5670]

1. 9V train motors are obsolete; motors have a finite life so they will not work for ever and replacements will be required.

I've heard people say this about the 9V train motors before. Although it's true that any motor will eventually fail in theory, are the 9V train motors especially prone to it in some way?

With the exception of the red micromotors (which apparently had some design or manufacturing flaw), I haven't actually seen any other type of Lego motor die over time. I have some ungeared 9V Technic motors that are close to 20 years old and have seen moderate use but work fine.

[Legoliner Pilot]

The only reason why people want 9V back is because of the pulling power of the locomotives, or more specifically the motor. That's it. The track is nothing special, hell it's comparable to a normal piece of RC track with some metal stuck on. If LEGO made a proper motor (I.E: A motor that can pull more than what's included with itself) that fills the space of a bogey instead of all this Technic motor and gearing hoopla, and that can actually pull more than 2 carriages without tripping the circuit, then maybe AFOLTs (see below paragraph for definition) would shut up and stop lamenting the death of 9V. It shouldn't be that hard to make a bogey motor that has enough torque and that doesn't suck up battery life in 2 seconds flat. I wish LEGO would stop trying to make trains into Technic.

The Emerald Night is great, but it only comes with one carriage. Keep in mind LEGO that this is the only bone you have thrown us AFOLTs (Adult Fans of LEGO Trains, I think it sounds quite good ) in two years. It's not fair how we have waited this long for a nice train and we finally get one, and it only has one carriage/wagon. Who the hell has the mindset that a train should only pull one carriage, and then puts extra stickers for more cars but the pieces aren't included to build them. If you can make the Imperial Flagship USD $179.99 than why couldn't you have made the Emerald Night the same price and included two more carriages/wagons?

In any case, 9V is dead forever. Complaining won't help and it is certainly NOT coming back.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Legoliner Pilot

[Killerrabbit]

Anyone else noticed similarites between the new passenger train and:

Edited January 17, 2010 by Killerrabbit

[legotrainfan]

I've heard people say this about the 9V train motors before. Although it's true that any motor will eventually fail in theory, are the 9V train motors especially prone to it in some way?

With the exception of the red micromotors (which apparently had some design or manufacturing flaw), I haven't actually seen any other type of Lego motor die over time. I have some ungeared 9V Technic motors that are close to 20 years old and have seen moderate use but work fine.

I've got a 9V train motor from 1991, and it still works nicely. But it has never had to pull too many waggons. So I don't know how long such a motor works till it finally fails.

[Killerrabbit]

I've got a 9V train motor from 1991, and it still works nicely. But it has never had to pull too many waggons. So I don't know how long such a motor works till it finally fails.

My 12V motor from -81 still speeds along like superman without a problem, thats ~30 years and still going strong!

I would not worry to much about motors from -91 falling apart already then :)

Maybe Lego should build power plant engines instead since they make machines requiring no maintenance for 30 years!

[Holodoc]

Anyone else noticed similarites between the new passenger train and:

Actually I think it's more similar to this one:

...it's even 4 years older.

[Piranha]

Actually I think it's more similar to this one:

...it's even 4 years older.

Actually I think this is closer

The Train that is, not the elevated part

Edited January 18, 2010 by Macoco

[The Green Brick Giant]

The Train that is, not the elevated part

Are you sure?

[Legoliner Pilot]

Are you sure?

You knew what he was referring to.

[WesternOutlaw]

then maybe AFOLTs (see below paragraph for definition) would shut up and stop lamenting the death of 9V.

You're pushing your luck.

[lightningtiger]

9Volt will only die if everyone lets it, as long as the 9Volters keep the MOC's comming.

Besides that that airport monorail set featured above is a similar to this for the TRU exculsive vote.......

If you look at the public transportation picture you'll see the same as this.....

[Matt Dawson]

SNIPPED

9Volt will only die if everyone lets it, as long as the 9Volters keep the MOC's comming.

If you look at the public transportation picture you'll see the same as this....

'Similar' not 'same'. The windows, for example. But I'm nit-picking...

I'd love to get my hands on a 9V motor & a box of straight track. I've got an MOC I'll be releasing for viewing online shortly, which when motorised will allow the train to bring in containers to the container depot as a shuttle operation.

9V was a fantastic system - swap a pretend motor bogie for a real motor bogie and it's motorised. Easy peasy - and it takes less than a minute. The PF battery box is just too big - it only fits in 6 wide bodied diesels (such as the Santa Fe) and large (normally tender) steam locos. Hardly very MOC friendly - and the motor has as much pull & will go as far "as an asthmatic ant with a load of heavy shopping".

Edited January 18, 2010 by Matt Dawson

[Helmantel]

Somebody at lowlug.nl who's been at Lego in Billund (Duq) wrote the following regarding the train motors:

The motor strongly resembles the 9V and RC train motor. The internals are new and it has a PF connection. The internals are stronger and more efficient than the RC motor.

Lowlug discussion

I guess that means that you don't have to worry about the weak RC motor anymore.

Regarding the price, I don't understand why people try to calculate them based on what separate PF components cost. I mean, that's about the same as trying to calculate the price of the Grand Emporium (or any new set) based on Pick A Brick prices or the price of a new car based on what the dealer charges for a replacement engine and gearbox. Parts always (much) more expensive seperately then in a set, which is true for just about anything.

As a 12V collector I can give the following example: motorizing a 7715 push along train with a 12V motor and 2 packs of middle (electric) rails was more expensive than a 7735 train, which had all the 12V parts to begin with. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Also, now that they're going to produce (or order if they come from a supplier) the PF components in much bigger numbers than the relatively few adults who chose to motorize their Emerald Night with them, the cost price will probably drop a whole lot. I doubt if that will also result in greatly reduced prices for the separate components at S@H. Except for end of production sales, Lego prices usually tend to increase, not drop....

[Anders Nolberger]

Are you saying that it is a new motor in the new sets other then the RC one?

I thought that picture of the boxes showed a motor where the cable is attached without a connector but then I decided that it was inpossible to see.

[Helmantel]

Are you saying that it is a new motor in the new sets other then the RC one?

I thought that picture of the boxes showed a motor where the cable is attached without a connector but then I decided that it was inpossible to see.

According to Duq at least. Somebody at lowlug also asked him about the wire and he wasn't sure but thought that it was attached to the motor.

Duq actually posted in this topic earlier, so maybe he'll comment on it.

[Piranha]

Somebody at lowlug.nl who's been at Lego in Billund (Duq) wrote the following regarding the train motors:

The motor strongly resembles the 9V and RC train motor. The internals are new and it has a PF connection. The internals are stronger and more efficient than the RC motor.

That is great news!

I had been worried about this after reading some reviews of the RC Trains from 2006 saying the power of them was quite weak.

So it looks like the 9v and RC one, but is stronger, that is great.

I was not fond of the XL PF Motor require to power the EN.

[lightningtiger]

Now I might be a little crazy or go out on a limb, but does this look like something comming in August.......

Our August release train station isn't all that new, this one pictured above is from 1980....thirty years ago !

(Just saw this picture in another post and thought HEY ?!?)

The new one is just updated, although not as large as the 1980 one.

I wonder what else is a rehash of an early 80's train set eh ?

[Brickthus]

I've heard people say this about the 9V train motors before. Although it's true that any motor will eventually fail in theory, are the 9V train motors especially prone to it in some way?

With the exception of the red micromotors (which apparently had some design or manufacturing flaw), I haven't actually seen any other type of Lego motor die over time. I have some ungeared 9V Technic motors that are close to 20 years old and have seen moderate use but work fine.

Not especially prone, no.

Life depends on how much you run the motors and how big the load is.

All of them will eventually wear out, more so the more we use them as shows. Most layouts have 2 trains running all the time.

I try to keep motor current down to 200mA/motor (of a capability of 300mA) to prolong their life.

At a show it's best to run each train for no more than half an hour at a time.

Mark

[DaCheese]

I was under the impression that inside the bogie casing of the 9V 'motor', there's just a few gears and a Scalextric size or similar can motor. Finding a replacement with the same response characteristics might be tricky, but surely this actual motor could be replaced?

[Duq]

Yup:

Only problem is that you need a motor with a gear on each end. They're not as common.