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The Unofficial BIONICLE Story Critique Topic

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I guess I like the story of each year as a whole, ie marketing and art and settings, it's just I think Greg's stuff in particular is rather poor. Mostly for reasons DV stated.

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Dear lord, don't you people have better things to be critiquing? Particularly those who have graduated college (and don't hesitate to mention as often as possible).

Seriously.

I may sound like a troll, but this isn't going to end, and no one is going to learn anything constructive.

Greg's a writer. He writes semi-violent fantasy stories, like so many have before him. Which is perfect for his job.

He's done a wonderful job staying in touch with what much of the fan community wants, on his own watch.

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Dear lord, don't you people have better things to be critiquing?

It is a Bionicle subforum on a Lego forum. Critiquing something else would be spam and off topic. :)

But don't you have anything better to do besides critiquing the critics?

He's done a wonderful job staying in touch with what much of the fan community wants, on his own watch.

Sometimes giving the fans what they want doesn't make you a good writer. Means you have nothing to write about.

I'm sure that if I had my way for the Final Fantasy series, it would piss fans off and probably won't end well.

Or imagine if George Lucas listened to every fanboy and did what they want. Star Wars would suck.

And never saw Harry hooking up with Hermione, and I know that fans wanted that action.

-Omi

Edited by Omicron

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Snip

I know you're 'taking a break', but this is exactly the type of post that deserves a reply.

Firstly, the 'paraphrase' was hyperbole, and I knew it wasn't entirely accurate. It was my way of poking fun at the entire conversation. I would have laughed uproariously had you done the same back to me.

Second, I don't know how else to apparently get this across, because I thought it was quite obvious. But, here's the kicker guys- I like BIONICLE. I don't hate BIONICLE. I think it's neat. I've always thought it was neat. In 2001 I thought it was neat, and here in 2009 I still think it's neat. I enjoy facets and aspects of the story. I enjoy facets and aspects of the sets. I like facets and aspects of collecting masks. But what I really like is the MOCing inspiration it has given, and still gives me. The story, however, is what brought me into this whole mess. Eight years later, entire life shifts, and I'm still here. I've never gone inactive in the community, I've never 'taken a break,' I've been here for the whole shebang. If I didn't like what I was discussing, I wouldn't be discussing it.

And on that note, I specifically mentioned that you should, by all means, enjoy the story, and even Greg's contributions. You shouldn't let technical flaws kill your enjoyment of something you like. As I said, I love Star Wars novels. Do you think those are the literary equivalent of Dostoevsky? Far from it. But I recognize that, and enjoy them all the same. Like I said, I like the overarching theme and outline of the BIONICLE saga. I even like some of the cliched characters (Kopaka <3). But it is my opinion that because of Greg's personal entries into the story bring the entire thing down. I liked many of the aspects from the last five or six years. But once the details emerged through Greg's indistinct and poor writing, they lost a lot of their appeal. 2006 and 2008 are the biggest examples of this, I think. Both had promise, and I felt that the books for both years were exceptionally poor, and brought the storyline as it had been told in other media down drastically.

As for cliched characters, I'd hoped you'd see that I also said those things were often inevitable. It's how they're used and differentiated that makes them stand out, and I don't think Greg is capable of that. Like I said, the man is a comic book writer. And a talented one at that. But a man who 'doesn't think in pictures, but in words,' is not up to the task of describing anything. Man I don't know if I've ever expressed how much that excuse has always frustrated me. He can write character bios, comic books, but I wouldn't let the man near a novel or novella if I were being paid to.

As for his community interaction, I've always maintained that this is fantastic and wonderful. He listens to fans, and sometimes does as we ask. Awesome. He sometimes has better ideas than other storyteam members. Absolutely true. But none of those things make him a good writer. They are other aspects of his talents and personality, things I am in no way criticizing. As I've said, Greg's always been a pretty nice guy, and even when him and I have directly sparred, I've always felt he was patient and respectful.

Finally, you claim that Bones allows his personal feelings to influence his opinions, and you act as if that's a bad thing. Fact is, everyone is influenced by their personal tastes somewhat - there is no such thing as total objectivity, nor is there a single person in the world who is utterly non-biased in every respect. The reality of being human is that, even if we can not tell that we are being influenced by our opinions on things, they still have an affect on the way we act and the way we view the world around us.

Well, in my personal opinion, as a psychology major (now I'm making fun of myself. :) ), I agree with you one hundred percent. Of course, things like that work better when both sides are willing to admit to such a bias, which Bonesiii often does. Like I said, I like the guy. I like to think we have an unspoken respect and admiration for one another.

Which leads finally to this. There was no disrespect meant in any of my post. Lord knows I'm interested in everyone having their opinions and being allowed to express them without condemnation or judgment. I don't know you, I don't have anything against you, I'm not interested in beating you over the head with my point of view. I'm sure you're a great person with a lot to offer the world, and I'd totally buy you lunch if I knew you in real life.

I guess I like the story of each year as a whole, ie marketing and art and settings, it's just I think Greg's stuff in particular is rather poor. Mostly for reasons DV stated.

I think this would be an accurate summation. :)

This topic is really cute. :3

You're really cute. And if I were in the same room with you right now, I'd exercise those privileges your girlfriend gave me. :3

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Wow, really Yaoi.

Kinda like that Kopaka x Pohatu fic I wrote.

Anyway. I think what people are being defensive about is the misconception that "bad writer" = personally attacking Greg, And it isn't. It's just honest-to-goodness criticism.

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Wow, big writing there... really big! :oh:

MMOG, what a brilliant thing. You a mysterious insignificant being, journey across an island and discover the cultures of six villiages while witnessing a incredible journey of six hero's who put aside their differences and team up to defeat the evil Makuta and save the island.

The best part is that anyone can project theirself into Takua's shoes. You don't even see him til the end and by that time you've won. You aren't the hero, your a helper.

The best part? Actual fitting, no inconsistances, part of the story. Directly following on from the GB game while taking place at the same time as the comics (and books?).

MMOG: One of the highlights of the past 9 years

9 years later:

We have got a storyline in tatters.

Characters race past like a bullet, they don't stick around and aren't in-depth.

Bara Magna, Shattering, Bota Magna, Aqua Magna and Elemental Lords. How much did the storyline crew pull out their ****'s in the past years?

MU = MM has been their for years, all the clues are their but all this bananas is mind-numbing. Ret-Cons are fine but you know what happened to Bionicle?

They took out the Magic.

This has many parrels to the real world, Religions are blaming Science for taking the God out the world and this is what happened with Bionicle I mean.

Did we have to know who put all the masks on Mata Nui?

How Elemental Powers work?

(Etc...)

Those to blame?

'Fans' (I use the term loosely) That can't sleep without knowing how gravity works in the MU.

'Story Team' These guys seem to have been very keen to turn Bionicle from 'A fusion of Fantasy and Sci-Fi' To blanant 'Sci-Fi' and this is evident throughout the years.

And Greg... Oh Greg... Nice guy but he use's the 'Arena' Techinque to write? Did he just make that up one day?

My Storyline Graph:

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

___ ___ __ _ _ __ ___ _ _

___ ___ __ _ _ __ ____ __ _

___ ___ ___ _ _ _ ___ ____ __ _

___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ____ ___ ___

Edited by God Iron

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If there were no "MNOLG", would you guys have actually liked the storyline in 2001?

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Sounds to me you're just sad that all years after 2001 weren't just 2001 all over again.

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If there were no "MNOLG", would you guys have actually liked the storyline in 2001?

Not as much, but I would have still followed it.

MNOLG was good for what it did, that is, building interest in a new brand. Not much else, though.

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I still would have appreciated the storyline for what it is just as much, but the MNOLG made it more interesting because it set the scene, characters and lifestyle of Mata Nui, rather than 2001 just being about 6 robots fighting evil on a tropical island.

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Still, the plot of 2001 was rather vague without the MNOLG. I'd include books, but did anyone actually enjoy them at the time?

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If there were no "MNOLG", would you guys have actually liked the storyline in 2001?

I never played it and I like 2001.

-Omi

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I never played it and I like 2001.

-Omi

The collectibles, you mean, and not the story?

Edited by Zip

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The collectibles, you mean, and not the story?

The story I actually did like, cuz it was mythical and such and I love mythology. Remember when we found out there was a 7th Toa, and represented Light? Now we have like a crapload of Toa and so many elements. I'm sure that if another Toa of Light came along, it won't have that same feeling as it did in 2003. And the story was very simple at the time too. Now it is way too much and hard to follow. Thats why I don't follow Star Wars because its the same thing. Too many names to remember, most are hard to pronounce. And god forbid I get something wrong, someone is going to chew me out.

And collectibles all the way.

-Omi

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Expansion of the universe is pretty inevitable with any franchise. The way I heard it, people were complaining about having stayed on Mata Nui too long by 2003.

And yeah, MNOG was incredibly engaging but 2001 had a pretty basic plot compared to what we have now (that's regardless of whether the current storyline is considered good or not). The compliments people are making about the original Bionicle story seem to be more about the Universe and set up rather than the actual storyline itself.

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Expansion of the universe is pretty inevitable with any franchise. The way I heard it, people were complaining about having stayed on Mata Nui too long by 2003.

Funny you mention that, cuz the second we left to Metru Nui, lots of people complained and wanted to go back to Mata Nui. :P

Second we want a change, we complain about it and wanna go back.

-Omi

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It's human nature to want change and dislike it when it comes.

And also very annoying.

-Omi

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It's more of an issue of different people wanting different things. When People group A aren't happy with what the story is like but People Group B is, PG A complain about it. In the next year, the story becomes what PG A wants, so now PG B is unhappy and complains. The end result on forums is that there always seem to be people complaining about change, despite people earlier wanting the change.

In regards to how MNOLG set up the universe for BIONICLE, I really wish there would be similar games to establish the new places every year. It would help develop the new setting so that we know what the inhabitants are really like. In 2007, it seemed like the Toa were just fighting bad guys underwater, but a game or novel that went into the lives, hopes and dreams of the Mahri Nui Matoran would've added a lot more meaning when the Toa were trying to defend Mahri Nui from being destroyed by the Barraki at the end of the year.

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Funny you mention that, cuz the second we left to Metru Nui, lots of people complained and wanted to go back to Mata Nui. :P

Second we want a change, we complain about it and wanna go back.

-Omi

That's exactly what I'm getting at, and also what Greg's argument was. I remember the mysterious and eerie feeling from 2001 as well and I would completely agree with you that that feeling is nowhere near as strong with the current story.

One one hand, you could also argue that the reason we find the mysterious setting so attractive is because of the idea that eventually we'll get the fulfilment of finding things out. It's the same as saying we want to see expansion and growth but then complain about what we lose as a result. I can at least speak for myself when I say that I longed for the day when we would find out who exactly Makuta was. And when that first instance at the end of 2001 came, I thought that after all the talk of him being in the shadows and being so mysterious, coming out in the form of a Matoran and the whole void scene was absolutely brilliant. It was like they still managed to keep him shrouded in mystery whilst revealing him in a physical form. The 2003 Makuta was the Makuta drawn out in the flesh (so to speak) which was exactly what I wanted in 2001. Now that I've got that, his mysterious side is lost.

However, I can also agree with those who complain about the loss of the mystery aspect in citing that some of the elements that made 2001 so interesting just haven't been used since then. Again with Makuta, it's not so much that the main villain has now been exposed as we wanted, but that the idea of a mysterious villain who we never get to see just hasn't been used since then. I think the Morbuzahk plant was the closest thing we've had since Makuta. I too would quite like to see a MNOG styled game where we've been thrust into a world we don't know, and Bara Magna would have been the perfect opportunity for that.

Personally, whilst I still harbour that nostalgic fanboy, I've never felt annoyed enough to complain about the tone we have now because what Bionicle has maintained throughout the years is a thoroughly interesting and inspiring universe which almost never fails to draw me in. I didn't find Metru Nui as mysterious as Mata Nui but I found it immensely interesting none the less.

The argument about wanting something you can't have has been used countless times with Bionicle and is hardly exclusive to it. Someone mentioned Harry Potter a while back. With Harry Potter, you have the same basic situation where we enter a new world which is unknown and mysterious at first, but inevitably gets expanded (or our knowledge of it does) as we go along. Try not to get too bothered by this. We get nostalgic about things and that's perfectly okay. If it's just human nature, it's often better to look at it from an indifferent perspective rather than complain. Just let the fans be that way and tell them, “look, guys. This is something that has to happen otherwise we get bored and the franchise dies.”

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It's more of an issue of different people wanting different things. When People group A aren't happy with what the story is like but People Group B is, PG A complain about it. In the next year, the story becomes what PG A wants, so now PG B is unhappy and complains. The end result on forums is that there always seem to be people complaining about change, despite people earlier wanting the change.

And now you see why Greg gives people what they want. Because its not about pleasing the fans. It is about keeping the fans. While it may be good for sales, it really isn't good for story most of the time. And its sad because nowadays everyone wants this and this and this and this and to have a name for that and that and that.

-Omi

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And now you see why Greg gives people what they want. Because its not about pleasing the fans. It is about keeping the fans. While it may be good for sales, it really isn't good for story most of the time. And its sad because nowadays everyone wants this and this and this and this and to have a name for that and that and that.

-Omi

The story fans like us make up very little of the ammount of people who buy the sets. I may be wrong but I'm sure the target audience was only consulted for what they wanted in the sets rather than the story. It's also been constantly said that, as far as set design goes, we in the older fanbase generally lose out to the target audience because Bionicle is made for and aimed at them. They're the party that has statistically always appreciated the toy aspect of the franchise more than us, and they're the ones who's parents' wallets keep the franchise alive. I don't think giving the hardcore story fans what they want is going to increase set sales by very much at all, and then there's this quote from Greg:

I would have been happy to stay in the MU this year, but that wasn't the direction the bosses wanted to take

I'll make an effort to understand your wording of 'pleasing the fans' vs 'keeping the fans,' but you're drawing a very hazy definition. The story team still have minds of their own and can still make personal decisions on where Bionicle should turn in each upcoming year. It seems like a far stretch to me that the story team, or Greg in particular, will just do anything the fans ask for in some desperate effort to make them stay. The move to Metru Nui, for one, was actually planned since about 2001. Then there's also the argument that stories are written with the intention of engaging their audience and making them want to stay and find out more. There's nothing wrong with this because the goal for both parties is entertainment. If the creative mind or minds behind that story feel that something's gone on for too long and is starting to bore the audience (especially when the audience clearly indicates this), why not change?

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