Bionicle-2010?

[InnerRayg]

Lol @ Cap'n, way to lose that one. Good proof that you've lost an argument is that you've started insulting your opponent.

[Refia]

It just feels that Greg is making things up completely as he goes

He's stated numerous times that this is, in fact, what he does. =/

@ Darth Vader, you should take your crusade against LEGO's sexism to the next level and go attack Hero Factory next, seeing as, you know, we have only 1 female there. How sexist! As if females can't be Heroes or Villains!

Seriously guy, chill. This hammering of BZPower mods on how Greg and Bionicle are terrible and bad and sexist is getting irritating.

[Phantoka_Chirox]

@Cap'n and DV

Go back to the kitchen!!!!

[CabooseBM]

@Cap'n and DV

Go back to the kitchen!!!!

AND MAKE ME A SAMMICH

[Zarkan]

Blah blah blah.

The point I was making is not that the female characters have always been absurd gender stereotypes (though they mostly have), the point is that the explanation for Orde's gender is patently and inherently sexist. Which it is. Not only that, but the way it is written is as if "oh yeah, these absurd gender stereotypes are obviously true, and any reader will see the wisdom in these actions, no big deal". But it is a big deal, as any of the female fans I have talked to are any indication (or the male ones who are, you know, actually aware of real female personalities and identities). Not to mention Greg's explanation to write off his sexism is absurd and even more derogatory than the sexism itself was to begin with.

The gender stereotypes have always been bad, especially when we only had one tribe that was female out of six for the majority of the line. But the blatant sexism exhibited in this latest update crosses the line, especially when coupled with Greg's weak-megablocks "explanation".

Funny that you say that, because so far you're the only one who has said any sort of thing. That would seem to indicate that, rather than this update being overetly sexist, you're simply reading far too much into what was probably just meant to be a neat look into Orde's orgins. More importantly, you've never actually explained WHY it is aparrently sexist. So, in the Bionicle universe, Toa of Psionics are generally gentle - and Toa of Air are generally happy go lucky, Toa of Fire are generally hot-tempered, Toa of Ice are generally cold loners, etc. How is this any different from what we've been getting ever since Bionicle began? It's one thing to call it cliche and unoriginal, but its entirely different to say that it's blatantly insulting to a particular gender. This reminds me a lot of how some members of minorities consistently look for racism in everything white men say about their race, even when the opposite is obviously true. It's also rather insulting and rude to Greg, as calling someone sexist is akin to calling someone a white supremacist or a bigot. Seriously, you're overreacting, especially considering that this is about a CHIDREN'S TOY. As if we've never seen unfair stereotypes of females in chidren's toy storylines before - or in comic books, or in movies, or in anything else that has ever been published. Heck, I'd argue that the comic books that turn every female superhero into a walking sex-object are far more sexist than anything a story about biomechanical robots could ever be.

As for the aparrent weakness of the explanation, it seems a lot of people are happy that he didn't just pull the "Orde is a Toa of Psionics from an alternate universe" trick, like he did when he "resurected" Toa Tuyet. Making Orde the first Toa of Psionics is probably not the most original idea, but at least it's something that took place in the official universe rather than some far-out pocket dimension or alternate timeline. Sometimes, it seems like people are just looking for things to complain abou.... hm, perhaps that's why TvTropes has "Unpleasable Fanbase" listed on the Bionicle page. It's certainly not an original phenomenon - it almost seems natural for the fanbases of many lines to complain about everything that every happens. Maybe the Biosector Wiki should have a "RUINED FOREVER" page like the Transformers and Star Wars wikis.

[dviddy]

because so far you're the only one who has said any sort of thing.

Of course! Because Eurobricks' five or six regular BIONICLE/Hero Factory commentators are a realistic sample of the BIONICLE fanbase in general, and you know, the numerous members on other BIONICLE fansites who are, you know, angry as hell about it don't exist.

It's one thing to call it cliche and unoriginal, but its entirely different to say that it's blatantly insulting to a particular gender

So a comment that was made that stereotypes an entire gender. But it's wrong to call that out? To point out that this is not what people should be offering for the benefit of our children?

Sure. That makes sense?

As if we've never seen unfair stereotypes of females in chidren's toy storylines before - or in comic books, or in movies, or in anything else that has ever been published.

We're not talking about other properties. We're talking about BIONICLE. Because someone else did something wrong and continues to do something wrong is no excuse for someone else to perpetuate that same action. C'mon, I know you're better than that.

Heck, I'd argue that the comic books that turn every female superhero into a walking sex-object are far more sexist than anything a story about biomechanical robots could ever be.

I think we can stand in agreement on that all day and every day. If we were to be discussing this on a comic book webforum, I could probably rant all day on the subject, every day.

Go back to the kitchen!!!!

Ironically, I just got home from my dayjob where I work in a kitchen. :P

And hey, who cares that Orde, a male character, is a total savage because he's male?

I do. Because sex and gender do not carry inherent emotional tendencies like this. That's science- they don't. Yes- there are actual developmental differences between men and women, and yes- men and women do have tendencies to process information differently. But both experience the full emotional spectrum in equal amounts and both are capable of the same level of aggression and violence as the other. These are scientific statements with actual scientific evidence weighted behind them. As such, to say that men are inherently aggressive and Orde is a savage because he's male or that women are gentle and so Toa of Psionics are all female to make them tamer is extremely ignorant and misinformed at best, and it is sexist and immoral at worst.

I have no problem with Orde being a brutal savage character, who is also male.

I have no problem with Gali being a peaceful, calm character who is also female.

I have a very large problem with those attributes being attributed to them because of their genders.

That's not okay.

You know, I should write a whole article on this. Then maybe my internet-friends can flock in and tell me how cool I am. Then I'll leave and do nothing to, you know, try to make social reforms that really matter, you know, like things that help real people out. Because looking cool by acting like you're a nonconformist internet vigilante is always better than even speaking your beliefs in real life.

See, there's witty and sarcastic banter that I am totes okay with. But hey, you know what? You don't know me. What I engage in offline is something that while not hidden from those I know online, it's not something that everyone is aware of either. But the idea that I'm typing all this up to look cool and impress people and you know, not because it's actually what I believe and how I live my life is a step in the wrong damn direction. I do not promote ideologies I do not believe in. I don't play Devil's Advocate.

You know, maybe I'm so steamed about this explanation being offered because the idea of gender inequality is actually, I don't know, important to me? That maybe I believe that such blatant sexism makes the world a worse place?

I don't know. I guess that it just sounds crazy that people might attempt to live out the things they say they believe.

[Refia]

I'm just wondering why you're ranting and complaining about this to us rather than to Greg. You know, the person who actually wrote something so obviously sexist and evil? If you've got a problem with Bionicle, he seems the most logical person to turn to. Of course, it's possible that you've already done that. And then I still don't really see the point of ranting here since I don't think either side is going to convince anyone and I personally don't give a damn about the whole situation. Bionicle is dead, so what does it matter if its zombie is sexist or not. If I were you I'd go take the sexist crusade over to Hero Factory. You know, with the only 1 female character this year and all? Then again, I'm not you, so nevermind. Probably will get told to mind my own business anyway.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Refia

[ultra hamster]

What I think bothers me, and from what I can tell bothers Darth Vader, is that it plain out says that females are this and males are this.

It's one thing to contain stereotypes and another to to go out and say they are true.

Edited September 24, 2010 by ultra hamster

[Zarkan]

Of course! Because Eurobricks' five or six regular BIONICLE/Hero Factory commentators are a realistic sample of the BIONICLE fanbase in general, and you know, the numerous members on other BIONICLE fansites who are, you know, angry as hell about it don't exist.

Firstly, there really is only one major Bionicle fansite these days, and I just looked at the topic there designated for the Yesterday Quest. Turns out, you and Kohaku are the only ones who posted your distaste. Secondly, the idea that Greg is sexist just because he wrote the Great Beings like that is ludicrous. Everything we've seen in the storyline before has done nothing but reinforce the fact that, while the Great Beings mean well, they are in fact deeply flawed and don't often seem to know what is best for their creations. Thirdly, as I've said before, this is entirely an issue of elemental stereotypes, not gender stereotypes. It was established far before this that both Toa of Water and Toa of Psionics are more gentle than many of the male elements - just as it has been established that Toa of Air and Toa of Earth are much more easy going then Toa of Lightning.

Seriously, I just read over the serial again, and nothing in it screamed sexism at all. Chiara's sarcastic quote about "women being so gentle" pretty much established that the Great Beings were nuts to think that about all females, and their choice seemed to be directly a result of Orde's faults (not any actual gender-specific traits). If Orde had not been such a loose cannon (which seems to make him more like a Toa of Fire then any other male element), the Great Beings obviously wouldn't have decided that. It's all part of the storyline, and regardless of whether you feel that the female characters in Bionicle are all stereotypes or not, the fact is that they are hardly all "gentle and peaceful," and I would hardly argue that all the non-peaceful ones are "crazy bat-crap insane."

As for your accusation that sex and gender never cary any sort of emotional tendancies, well, I think this post by Surreality pretty much sums up what I feel about the issue:

Personally, I believe there are stereotypes, established behavioral models which are the product of society, but there are also inherent qualities to each gender, that I don't consider sexist or stereotypical in the least bit. We were made male and female for a greater reason than just breeding. A man and a woman complete each other, not because the conventions dictate that, but because we're meant to be different, and to emphasize each other's nature. Do you think its an accident that females give birth and look over their children? I doubt we men could do a better job (hope that doesn't offend any boys, really).

I love to think of the female sex as a gentle species, that is their true nature, umarked by any social or environmental bias. I adore and look up to these qualities in a woman, but that in no way deprives her of the right to have a unique character and personality. She can be strong, devoted, even harsh at times, but that wouldn't wash away the underlying beauty, gentleness, and maternal love. Really, I consider today's "equalization" of the two sexes more ugly, discriminatory, and perverted than any stereotype. There's nothing beautiful or sensible about androgyny.

You raised some good points. Why indeed are there only Ga-Matoran teachers in Metru-Nui? I'm inclined to believe that teaching is a skill that pertains to the quality of the person, rather than that of the sex, so I agree with you on this matter, but I've never really thought of that aspect in BIONICLE as sexist. Naturally, I wouldn't have made each Element peculiar to just one gender, but that's another story entirely.

You worry that 8-9 year olds are at an impressionable age and these references would mold their outlooks. I'm not saying that's wrong, but really, those children are exposed to so much more dangerous indoctrination through media, schools, and even their evironment, that this matter of "distorting" their perception of the two sexes is but a minor issue.

Once again, I don't mean to start a quarel, I was just stating a point

Now, if you feel that this is sexist, than I'm afraid we've reached the critical divide in this subject: a divide that affects basically everything in America. Yep, I'm talking about the dreaded conservative/liberal debate, and that is something I would rather not go into here. Just let it be said that, yes, I'm a conservative, and I feel that the radical feminist movement to erase any distinictions between males and females is rather dangerous. I don't believe that there are absolutely no distnictions between men and women, nor do I believe that society shoudl pretend that the genders are exactly the same in every way. And with that, I can really say no more.

[dviddy]

Just let it be said that, yes, I'm a conservative, and I feel that the radical feminist movement to erase any distinictions between males and females is rather dangerous. I don't believe that there are absolutely no distnictions between men and women, nor do I believe that society shoudl pretend that the genders are exactly the same in every way. And with that, I can really say no more.

This isn't about 'radical feminism'. The idea that gender equality equals androgyny equals a perversion of the created order is ridiculous and disgusting, and yes, I take extreme offense to that comment, and have said so already in other areas where this post has been quoted. Equality means that both are viewed as having the same societal abilities, being able to advance to the same levels, to work the same jobs, as both being equal in society's sight. It's not about men and women not being different, and you'll find that amongst actual liberals, and not just the scary feminist bogeyman version of feminists that run rampant in conservative paranoia (of which I was apart for a very long time), no one wants men and women to be seen as the exact same. Biologically, there are male and female, but gender roles are entirely societal constructs. There is nothing inherent about the idea that men are more aggressive than women. This is a societal construct, and it is patently untrue. Women engage in just as many acts and thoughts of aggression as men.

and their choice seemed to be directly a result of Orde's faults (not any actual gender-specific traits)

Except that the reason they chose for his actions was because he was male, and they needed a group who was inherently more passive or gentle, so they decided that this group should be females.

Seriously, how do you guys keep passing over that part?

Not to mention that again, Chiara's actions set her up not as the competent foil to the Great Being's sexism, but as the extremist exception that actually proves the rule. Maybe it's a fault of Greg's writing, but he is almost incapable of writing a female character who is not gentle, but not on the extreme side of aggression. There's no in-between, and that's why this Toa of Lighting instead reinforces the stereotype.

Firstly, there really is only one major Bionicle fansite these days, and I just looked at the topic there designated for the Yesterday Quest. Turns out, you and Kohaku are the only ones who posted your distaste.

There are three different topics on BZP currently active in this discussion, and more than just Kohaku and I have raised this question. I can think of several others just off the top of my head. On top of that, BZP is not the only active fansite (though it is the largest), and I can say that I have witnessed firsthand a very enraged group of members who are very upset about this blatant sexism. Which is what it is. Blatant. Sexism.

[Cap'n Kopaka]

This is getting old. The argument was fun while it lasted but I'm stepping out xP

I mean, I see your point, DV, and I see yours too Grevious, but it's just that I don't find this whole thing very important in the slightest bit. It's become like an angry tennis game where neither side sees the other side's point so they just keep batting back smug insults or repeating the same stuff. I'm not denying that I went a bit far with my sarcastic tirade.

But hey, ya know what they say about arguing on the internet being like the special olympics... xD

TOTALLY different subject, sorry if I sound like I'm trying to change it, but did anyone else find the whole Vorox thing a bit... really badly executed? It's like, we don't need any new big bad villains at this point (we've got Marendar and the gold-skinned guy and the weird Chthulu-thing), and I have a bad feeling that this Vorox guy will have absolutely no impact on the story after the party finds a way out of whatever trap they've gotten themselves into :x

[-Tilius-]

I'm a big fan of casual sexism, and I'd appreciate if I didn't have my beliefs criticised. I don't go around saying CHRISTIANITY PROMOTES HATE, so people should respect my beliefs too.

:)

Oh and btw this is a completely pointless discussion. And people shouldn't start saying they're 'enraged' by it. I'm 'enraged' by poverty and war and so on. Not by some sloppy writing in what amounts to little more than an online fanfic.

Also, I second the point about arguing on the internet being like the special Olympics.

- Tilius

Edited September 25, 2010 by -Tilius-

[Trionx]

LOL, If you want to hate on toylines for being sexist, allow me to point you towards the only female Decepticon in the Transformers Unicron Trilogy.

[ultra hamster]

Well at least this topic is active again.

[Aanchir]

Blah. I think this whole conversation is just annoying and tiresome. Some people will see this as sexist. Others will see this as perfectly harmless. Either way, nobody's going to be convincing each other what's right or wrong, so all you guys are doing is derailing a larger conversation to agonize over one plot point.

By the way, DV, I do agree that the idea of certain, ingrained attributes of male and female personalities is utter nonsense. It always bugs me when people make generalizations like that all men are perverted in this or that way, or that extreme sensitivity is an inherent trait in girls. This sort of thing leads people to ignore the actual meaning of personality-- that it is rooted in personal differences between people.

Still, I just don't feel like this issue necessitates the kind of lengthy rants that people have been producing. And I know I'm quite a hypocrite to be speaking out against lengthy rants, but I get the idea that this is becoming frustrating for everyone and that nobody's likely to change their mind either way.

[Zarkan]

This isn't about 'radical feminism'. The idea that gender equality equals androgyny equals a perversion of the created order is ridiculous and disgusting, and yes, I take extreme offense to that comment, and have said so already in other areas where this post has been quoted. Equality means that both are viewed as having the same societal abilities, being able to advance to the same levels, to work the same jobs, as both being equal in society's sight. It's not about men and women not being different, and you'll find that amongst actual liberals, and not just the scary feminist bogeyman version of feminists that run rampant in conservative paranoia (of which I was apart for a very long time), no one wants men and women to be seen as the exact same. Biologically, there are male and female, but gender roles are entirely societal constructs. There is nothing inherent about the idea that men are more aggressive than women. This is a societal construct, and it is patently untrue. Women engage in just as many acts and thoughts of aggression as men.

And thus, we have reached an impasse in this discussion. The line in this debate is clearly drawn down the conservative and liberal ideologies, and thus this issue will never be solved.

The End.

Now, if you excuse me, I have far more important things to worry about that supposed sexism in a toyline. The rest of you probably do as well, if you have lives that are filled with more essential activities than arguing about gender roles for biomechanical robots.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Grevious

[Cap'n Kopaka]

And I know I'm quite a hypocrite to be speaking out against lengthy rants

I literally laughed out loud xD

[Wrinkledlion X]

Why are we whining about a dead toyline that no one's reading anymore? Jesus Christ, give it a rest.

[Refia]

The Powers That Be was updated, and another one kicked the bucket. Had suckage written all over it. I hate these killing sprees of Greg, I really do. So, shall we start taking bets about who is gonna die the next chapter? Helryx? Arthaka? Mata Nui? The Shadowed One?

Really, killing Tren Krom, of all people? Why? He was powerful as heck, introducing something that can snuff him out in an instance after we just dealt with Makuta and with BIONICLE being as dead as it is really isn't a good idea. It's not fair to the guy either. Imprisoned all his life for no reason, then once he gets out he's killed like this because Greg could come up with no better way to keep the story alive and interesting. Meh.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Refia

[Zarkan]

Actually, from the looks of it Refia, that's not really the case:

One note --

Those of you who think this story is about death and murder (understandably so) are actually in for quite a big (and I think pleasant) surprise. Let's just say we are breaking some eggs in order to make an omelet that should come as quite a shock, explain some past questions, reveal some things you thought you knew were much bigger than you can imagine, and I think make a lot of fans very satisfied in the end. Even if you didn't like the tone of the first couple chapters, stick around ... we are heading for the red star and I am about to throw a plot twist at you that may be the biggest one yet.

[hewkii9]

As long as Pohatu doesn't kick the bucket I'm happy.

[Aanchir]

I'd also like to point out that Greg's story direction is the only reason characters like Karzahni and Tren Krom exist in the first place. So it's not as though Greg has no vested interest in these characters.

Admittedly, I haven't been able to maintain my interest in the story, but it's not because I don't like what Greg puts in the serials but rather because I don't like the pacing. It used to be that we'd get a strategically-spaced story, with a certain set of "main characters" defined by the year's sets, and a suggestion that at least some loose ends would be tied up at the end of the story for that year. Today, we have serials that give similar levels of importance to all sorts of characters from BIONICLE's sprawling cast, and a story that ties up loose ends and creates new ones in an almost-fluid cycle.

Perhaps Greg's serial writing style just doesn't work without a predefined "main story" to frame it. Perhaps his killing off characters is his attempt to reduce the number of minor characters who would otherwise demand attention, drawing the focus away from the "main" heroes and villains. Regardless, I can't say that the serials are interesting anymore, but it's nobody's place to claim Greg can't write effectively at all when he's been successfully conveying the story since 2001-- in comics since the beginning, books since 2003, and through his perennial presence on the BIONICLE story team.

[Refia]

I'm not saying Greg can't write effectively, just to clarify, I'm saying I don't like his story decisions (so far) such as killing characters left and right. That's not the same as saying he can't write. I agree Greg works best within the confines of that year's story. Now that he's been given free reign, the story kind of seems all over the place, and my interest has really been under zero for quite some time. And yet I keep reading. I suppose it's like a trainwreck, you can't stop watching.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Refia

[Phantoka Kopaka Nuva]

I don't know about you guys, but I just got interested in BIONICLE again. Since Greg said a few things that would be revealed in The Powers That Be:

the Red Star beings, Jaller's revival in MOL, and why it was safe for Teridax to wipe out the BOM.

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

Personally, I love The Powers That Be -- it's the first time since Mata Nui's identity was revealed that we've had a mystery in the story. ^_^