Is Knights Kingdom a continuation of the Castle theme?

[Mister Phes]

In the Which is better: Pirates or Castle Thread a discussion emerged about whether Knights Kingdom is a sub-theme or a continuation of SYSTEM Castle or a completely different theme altogether.

What does everyone else think? Does anybody actually know LEGO's official stance on what Knights Knightdom actually is in regards to Castle?

[blueandwhite]

I see KKII as its own line. And as far as I know, so does LEGO. Thus far, there has been nothing to connect KKII to any earlier line. The line deviates significantly from the design style of previous Castle lines. More to the point, it really doesn't matter what LEGO says. Simply put, calling a zebra a horse doesn't mean its true.

KKII is story-driven (an incredibly poor story, mind you), and has next to nothing in common with earlier castle products. Including the KK line with the Castle theme just doesn't make sense. I mean, how many people lump the Dino Attack, Aquazone or Adventure themes in with System Town? Its funny how the Ninja sub-theme is constantly lumped together with Castle, yet the Pirate, Western and Viking themes are treated as being distinct. And how many Space fans consider Life on Mars to be included with LEGO Space? Most of these divisions (or lack thereof) have been decided by fans. Heck, most North American fans refer to the classic lion knights as crusaders, simply because that term was used once in the US catalog in 1993.

I see the relationship between KKII and the castle line much like the relationship between Town and Alpha Team or Dino Attack. Ultimately, Knight's Kingdom is its own line. It may have some elements that fit in with the castle theme, but it is clearly too distinct to be included directly with the rest of the castle theme.

Later

[Lost Viking]

I totoally agree with blue. Knights Kingdom is a completely different theme.

[Sir Dillon]

I def. agree with BlueandWhite and Lost Viking.

[Sting]

I definately agree with Blueandwhite, Lost Viking, and Sir Dillon (lol)

The only thing is... I just hope LEGO considers KK2 a seperate theme. If they consider it the Castle theme than we'll be stuck with this crap forever...or until they realize how crappy there sets are... (I am sorry... I don't share the optimism of alot of people here and I see very little good about the KK2 sets...)

I wish that lego would just get any other historical theme going. The Dino Attack line in early promo pictures appeared to look like a new Adventurers Theme(do people recall that cool looking Prop plane?). But they ditched that for the crappy Dinoattack we see now.

I only call Ninja a castle subtheme because it is basically Far Eastern castles... which would make sense... and the Far eastern powers did use gunpowder more widely than Europeans did at the same time...

As i mention every day I wish lego would bring these sets back from the dead or start fresh with some new good themes. I wouldn't even mind Bley if the sets were good...

[Mister Phes]

I see KKII as its own line.  And as far as I know, so does LEGO.  Thus far, there has been nothing to connect KKII to any earlier line.  The line deviates significantly from the design style of previous Castle lines.  More to the point, it really doesn't matter what LEGO says.  Simply put, calling a zebra a horse doesn't mean its true. 

What connects the later Castle sub-themes (like Fright Knights) to the earlier ones? Fright Knights certainly deviated from the design style of earlier castle sets.

Zebras and horses aren't manfacturered by a company who decides the names its species and decides whether or not they're of the same genus.

  More to the point, it really doesn't matter what LEGO says.  Simply put, calling a zebra a horse doesn't mean its true. 

So you're saying, LEGO the producer of these themes doesn't really have control over how they're grouped together? For example: LEGO announces that Knights Kingdom is a sub-theme of Castle, but in reality its not true because you don't like the Knights Kingdom sets?

  More to the point, it really doesn't matter what

KKII is story-driven (an incredibly poor story, mind you), and has next to nothing in common with earlier castle products.  Including the KK line with the Castle theme just doesn't make sense.  I mean, how many people lump the Dino Attack, Aquazone or Adventure themes in with System Town? 

Why would anyone lump Dino Attack, Aquazone or Adventurers in with System Town? They're completely different form each other, unlike Knights Kingdom which shares many similiarities with the Castle theme.

Its funny how the Ninja sub-theme is constantly lumped together with Castle, yet the Pirate, Western and Viking themes are treated as being distinct. 

I've always wondered whether Ninja was intended to be sub-theme of Castle yet it appears to be an independant theme to itself. But how could you lump Western with Pirate or Viking? Western is a well established genre that is distinctly different from either of them and it would be like lumping Pirate with Castle. Although I can see how someone would lump Pirates and Vikings together.

And how many Space fans consider Life on Mars to be included with LEGO Space?  Most of these divisions (or lack thereof) have been decided by fans. 

I'm not educated on this matter. We don't have a Space Forum (for some reason) so space doesn't get a lot of discussion.

Heck, most North American fans refer to the classic lion knights as crusaders, simply because that term was used once in the US catalog in 1993.

That just means most Northern American fans are wrong! Crusders was a sub-theme of Castle though...

[Mister Phes]

The only thing is... I just hope LEGO considers KK2 a seperate theme. If they consider it the Castle theme than we'll be stuck with this crap forever...or until they realize how crappy there sets are...

This is the most important factor! LEGO might see Knights Kingdom as the linear progression of the Castle theme. Knights Kingdom just didn't appear over night like the Mission to Mars theme did, it slowly evolved into what it is now from the mid 90's. So, if LEGO sees Knights Kingdom as the linear progress of the Castle theme you'll probably have to wait for the caltle sets to evolve back into a form that pleases you better.

But why would LEGO care if Knights Kingdom is a seperate theme to castle? If its sells its giving people their castle fix. LEGO doesn't have sentimental nostalga for the Castle theme! Like cars, the Castle theme has evovled over time and Knights Kingdom is the latest model.

[gusmoore17]

Knights' Kingdom sets stand by themselves: they are clearly non typical castle sets, but they actually follow a universal language in the castle sets: evil vs good. Yes, I know that the story is sometimes even boring, but come on, the sets are amazing good sets, at least they look pretty cool on my shelves along with HP, City, Ferrari, Ninja, Rock Raiders, Adventurers I, II and III, Orient Expedition (Adventurers IV), Pirates and with the Star Wars ones. And they will look too very well along with the Batman sets and who knows what other themes are gonna be out the next year.

Is foolish to live always stuck in a fashion: complaining about the new colors, sets and or pieces can be compared with those who are still living in the 70's and 80's, the same is for lego sets, you didn't expect to see always the same castle sets, they would become boring, and I am telling you this based on my experience, I am 26 years old and believe, to keep track of the lego sets all around the last 20 years hasn't been easy, so answering to others complains and agreeing with a lot more, Knights' Kingdom II are as good as every theme that has already passed to history, even if they are in a pre stablished line or they are a complete new one.

:oD

[Mister Phes]

Ahhhhhh! Wonderful! Mr Gusmoore17 has bought up Adventurers! Is Orient Expedition a sub-theme of Adventurers or is that a theme to itself?

But once again I ask: Its established that the design of Knights Kingdom deviates or is non typical of castle, but how is that different to a Castle sub-theme like Fright Knights whose sets also deviate and are non typical of the earlier Castle sets?

[Sting]

Knights' Kingdom sets stand by themselves: they are clearly non typical castle sets, but they actually follow a universal language in the castle sets: evil vs good. Yes, I know that the story is sometimes even boring, but come on, the sets are amazing good sets, at least they look pretty cool on my shelves along with HP, City, Ferrari, Ninja, Rock Raiders, Adventurers I, II and III, Orient Expedition (Adventurers IV), Pirates and with the Star Wars ones. And they will look too very well along with the Batman sets and who knows what other themes are gonna be out the next year.

Is foolish to live always stuck in a fashion: complaining about the new colors, sets and or pieces can be compared with those who are still living in the 70's and 80's, the same is for lego sets, you didn't expect to see always the same castle sets, they would become boring, and I am telling you this based on my experience, I am 26 years old and believe, to keep track of the lego sets all around the last 20 years hasn't been easy, so answering to others complains and agreeing with a lot more, Knights' Kingdom II are as good as every theme that has already passed to history, even if they are in a pre stablished line or they are a complete new one.

                                                  :oD

It is more foolish to change something for the sake of change.

If you like lego solely for how good the set looks built on your shelves than I can't say we are on the same page.

As a person who loves building a lego set... admiring it for what it is and tinkering with it... and then eventually taking it apart to build something of my own... I find little value in the <insert that tiresome argument> junk known as KK2. I find little value in something that will just look good on a shelf and can not be modified at all as a large portion of the pieces are so specialized.

Castle would not have become boring because there are so many ideas that could have been done. And KK2 isn't much different than anything else except it lacks quality, uses rainbow coloured knights, and tells people buying lego sets what the story is. Very little room for imagination. They could have even made KK2 in the old style - (that is good set design and less specialized pieces) and It wouldn't have been that bad.

Also... liking older lego designs and being someone stuck in the 80s are actually incredibly different... Lego isn't my whole life... actaully it isn't even my biggest hobby... and most people here have much more hobbies than Lego... so saying we are "stuck in the 80s" because we like vintage lego is a fairly ignorant comment.

[Sting]

Ahhhhhh! Wonderful! Mr Gusmoore17 has bought up Adventurers! Is Orient Expedition a sub-theme of Adventurers or is that a theme to itself?

But once again I ask: Its established that the design of Knights Kingdom deviates or is non typical of castle, but how is that different to a Castle sub-theme like Fright Knights whose sets also deviate and are non typical of the earlier Castle sets?

Because Orient Expedition uses alot of the exact same Characters... I'd say it is a Subtheme of Adventurers... or just a logical continuation of it. Like the Pirate theme... Redbeard was around from 1989-1996.

[blueandwhite]

What connects the later Castle sub-themes (like Fright Knights) to the earlier ones? Fright Knights certainly deviated from the design style of earlier castle sets.

Indeed.

The castle theme between 1978 and 1997 has always had its roots in European culture and folklore. The costuming, minifigs and castles were largely inspired by conventional stereotypes of the middle ages. Even dragons, wizards and witches of later lines fit into these stereotypes. From Robin Hood to Merlin (Majesto), the figures were easily identifiable. Much like the Ninja and Pirate themes, the Castle theme was based on classic intepretations of the period. Even dragons find themselves rooted in European lore (ie St. George). Castle steadily evolved, and subsequently died with FK.

KKII shows a significant change in direction. The figures were given individual names. Their costumes were inspired more by recent children's programing (ie Power Rangers) than the middle ages. Weapons and armour no longer fit within the realm of the middle ages. Heraldry included exotic animals not generally associated with Europe, and the nights themselves were given strange names and a comic. This line bears closer resemblance to the new Exo Force line than it does the traditional castle line. In fact, the geometric nature of the swords and armour suggest a parallel world, not unlike the world of He-Man.

So you're saying, LEGO the produce of these themes doesn't really have control over them? For example if they were to say Knights Kingdom is in fact a sub-theme of Castle then its not true because you don't like the Knights Kingdom sets?

No, that's not what I'm saying, and you know it!

Between 1978 and 1997, LEGO produced a castle theme that was inter-connected from year to year. The sets were generally compatable, and shared a common connection to the folklore of the middle ages. Following the failure of KKI, LEGO abandoned these concepts completely in favour of the Jelly Bean Power Rangers we all know and love. To call this product a sub-theme of the currently defunct castle theme seems absurd. I am saying, there is nothing to connect KKII with the original castle theme, whether LEGO says so or not.

More later...

[Sting]

Excellently said Blue.

[Mister Phes]

KKII shows a significant change in direction. The figures were given individual names. Their costumes were inspired more by recent children's programing (ie Power Rangers) than the middle ages. Weapons and armour no longer fit within the realm of the middle ages. Heraldry included exotic animals not generally associated with Europe, and the nights themselves were given strange names and a comic. This line bears closer resemblance to the new Exo Force line than it does the traditional castle line. In fact, the geometric nature of the swords and armour suggest a parallel world, not unlike t

Yeah, see Knights Kingdom II has its roots within The Mighty Power Rangers! How mythological was that show!

But WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT a minute! What about the original Knights Kingdom? That seems half way between Castle and Knights Kingdom II. This thread is suppose to encompass BOTH Knights Kingdom themes.

[SuvieD]

I mostly collect castle stuff. Not so much sets but minifigures, castle pieces and useable other pieces all get used to make my own sets and buildings. I am no expert but I think I can pipe in with some credibility.

LEGO's castle line has been and will continue to change to fit desire and trends. The original LEGO castle was yellow, blocky, had red doors, brightly colored minifigures and unrealistic armor/visors. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves. The yellow castle pretty much sucked. The reason people like it so much is that it stirs up a warm fuzzy nostalgia for those who played with it as children. I have seen it numerous times. Those who grew up playing with the Dragon Master sets think those are the best. While those a little older think the Black Falcons are the greatest. As what is good and not is entirely debatable as it is a personal opinion each of us has. LEGO castle has always been defined by castle era soldiers, jousts, catapults and kings. At one time LEGO left it up to children to create there own names and stories for characters. This has obviously changed but does that make KK any less castle. Are there not still castles? What about knights, did they get removed?

I won't say much as to the other themes as it is obvious that the comparisons fail to do just that, compare. LEGO castle is not the same from year to year. Yellow castle years ended and the lion knights took over. Dragon masters changed the face of castle yet again and then Royal/Fright Knights did so in there turn. KK had it's time and when it ended LEGO was stumbling onto the biggest money maker they had ever seen, Bionicle. LEGO from that point on would never be the same. Characters, comics, story lines, powerful enemies, "magical" weapons and other things made them not only very popular but also collectible. KK2 is merely attempting to follow a similar thread to become just as good. Children like storylines, bright colors, comics, and a character they can relate to in some way. While one child wants to be strong like Santis another wants to be fast like Jayko and all want to be nothing like the evil Vladek. Story or no, fact is that this is LEGO castle. Exo Force will attempt to follow it's own similar thread. Thankfully, LEGO has learned some key things from KK2 to apply not only to new themes like Exo but also to the future of LEGO castle.

We will not see a return to the 80's castle sets, box designs, or building styles. For a good reason too. Set wise Royal Knights were one of the best, yet sales were dropping off. Was it getting stale? Bionicle and it's storyline is constantly changing. Castle wasn't. Pirate wasn't either. Though I doubt it had much to do with the sets (even though they were getting worse) it was a bad time for toys in the second half of the 90's. It may be a number of reasons but LEGO castle wasn't bringing in the money like it should have been. KK2 has not had one problem making profit. It has won awards, been popular in retail and has made LEGO money. Fright Knights didn't do this, Royal knights didn't the way they should have.

LEGO castle needs to improve, not towards realism or complexity but towards value. Better set designs, more figures and accessories, better storylines, character depth, and collector appeal. KK2 is LEGO castle right now. In two years who knows. It will probably change and 12 year olds now will join sites like this and refer to Vladek's dark fortress as the best castle set ever made. Just like some says about the Royal knights castle, like someone else says about Dragon Master Den, and I say about Forestmens River Fortress. In 10 years KK2 will be the golden age of castle when story lines were good and characters had advanced knowledge to build suits of magic armor and they didn't rely on swords to kill. It is like Star Wars is to fantasy space. KK2 is the fantasy castle most children made up with there knights back 15-20 years ago.

Castle hasn't died but it is still evolving. Whether you like it or not. It is selling better than Alpha team (which in my opinion is one of the most underrated themes ever) and many other themes. That sounds like it is living to me. The old sets were so fake it is unbelievable for anyone to think they were even remotely historical. Firstly, to compare anything to King Aurthur is to say it is fantasy much more so than KK2. Castles never had windows on lower levels, always had a ladder or stair to get from level to level, always had an inclosed area and a complete roof. LEGO castle had none of these yet. It is a toy. It requires the ability to play with it and not gently mind you. This discussion has been rehashed so many times on numerous forums and yet the fact doesn't change. LEGO castle in 2005=KK2. Every castle series after yellow castle has been a "sub theme". Only one can be the original. Nothing has yet to replicate the yellow castle era and so all are subs. KK2 has it's roots in bionicle (which in turn has roots in throwbots, which has roots in technic, which has roots in LEGOLAND classic) and LEGO castle (which has roots in SYSTEM castle, which has roots in LEGOLAND castle, which has roots in LEGOLAND classic). It is all still evolving. I don't want to go back to the stuff they had in 1978 because it sucked compared to what we have today. I want LEGO to take what has worked, what will sell and what the fans both young and old want and stuff it into each and every package of LEGO brand plastic toys make money from it and continue to improve. KK2 is awesome and is just as much LEGO castle as 375, 1584, 6071 and 6090, colorful, plastic, unrealistic and based in a fictitious castle world where people are big headed, yellow skinned freaks who never quite smiling.

Boy I am tired. Off to bed. I hope half of this makes some sense.

[Sting]

Your ending was hilarious. You bring up many good points... I can't really argue with what you said. I just told Phes that I think KK2 is not Castle... but perhaps after reading this I will have to change my mind.

Who knows. I need time to think. ANd mostly I need to stop thinking about Lego and think about other stuff. No one is stopping me from building the kind of castles I want and admiring the ones I want.

Maybe there will be some other good arguments... I will sit back and watch the debate flow for now on... only offering my 2cents when I feel like it :-D

[Mister Phes]

Suvie D has just explained more comprehensively what I've briefly touched upon. Maybe he's done a better job than me. In particular:

LEGO's castle line has been and will continue to change to fit desire and trends.  The original LEGO castle was yellow, blocky, had red doors, brightly colored minifigures and unrealistic armor/visors.  Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.  The yellow castle pretty much sucked.  The reason people like it so much is that it stirs up a warm fuzzy nostalgia for those who played with it as children.  I have seen it numerous times.  Those who grew up playing with the Dragon Master sets think those are the best.  While those a little older think the Black Falcons are the greatest.  As what is good and not is entirely debatable as it is a personal opinion each of us has.  LEGO castle has always been defined by castle era soldiers, jousts, catapults and kings.  At one time LEGO left it up to children to create there own names and stories for characters.  This has obviously changed but does that make KK any less castle.  Are there not still castles?  What about knights, did they get removed? 

Castle hasn't died but it is still evolving.  Whether you like it or not. 

LEGO castle in 2005=KK2.  Every castle series after yellow castle has been a "sub theme".  Only one can be the original.  Nothing has yet to replicate the yellow castle era and so all are subs. 

KK2 is awesome and is just as much LEGO castle as 375, 1584, 6071 and 6090, colorful, plastic, unrealistic and based in a fictitious castle world where people are big headed, yellow skinned freaks who never quite smiling.

He's done quite well too, hasn't he?

I don't want to go back to the stuff they had in 1978 because it sucked compared to what we have today.  I want LEGO to take what has worked, what will sell and what the fans both young and old want and stuff it into each and every package of LEGO brand plastic toys make money from it and continue to improve. 

I agree!!! I agree!!! LEGO listen to Suvie!

[blueandwhite]

LEGO's castle line has been and will continue to change to fit desire and trends.  The original LEGO castle was yellow, blocky, had red doors, brightly colored minifigures and unrealistic armor/visors.  Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves.

I agree. I doubt that many people would suggest that 375, or any other LEGO castle is particularly realistic.

The yellow castle pretty much sucked.  The reason people like it so much is that it stirs up a warm fuzzy nostalgia for those who played with it as children.

Now this is something I strongly disagree with. The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia. This set had a great assortment of bricks, and a large assortment of minifigs that has rarely been matched. It had a large piece count and allowed for an infinite number of varried MOCs. This set was truly a set for builders, and has since become popular with collectors!

Those who grew up playing with the Dragon Master sets think those are the best.  While those a little older think the Black Falcons are the greatest.

A bit of a generalization. I actually grew up with the original yellow castle, however I believe that the castle theme peaked in 1992 with the release of 6086 (Black Knight's Castle). We each have our favorites, and we identify with them for different reasons.

At one time LEGO left it up to children to create there own names and stories for characters.  This has obviously changed but does that make KK any less castle.  Are there not still castles?  What about knights, did they get removed? 

In my opinion, this is a significant change. I'm not arguing that Knight's Kingdom doesn't include knights or castles. I'm suggesting that KK is its own theme. Dino Attack includes a helecopter and a jeep, yet it is by-and-large a self-contained theme, distinct from LEGO town. In fact, so far as I can tell, just about every theme with a developed storyline seems to be self-contained. The thing is, earlier themes intermixed. Lion Knights mixed with the BF who then mixed with the Forestmen theme and so forth. It was a natural progression from year to year. We don't see that same progression with most story-based themes (Adventures being a possible exception). KKII doesn't have any real ties with KKI, just as Alpha Team and Dino Attack are completely unrelated.

LEGO castle is not the same from year to year.  Yellow castle years ended and the lion knights took over.  Dragon masters changed the face of castle yet again and then Royal/Fright Knights did so in there turn.  KK had it's time and when it ended LEGO was stumbling onto the biggest money maker they had ever seen, Bionicle.  LEGO from that point on would never be the same.  Characters, comics, story lines, powerful enemies, "magical" weapons and other things made them not only very popular but also collectible.

EXACTLY!!

This is also the reason that KK cannot truly be considered a continuation of the castle theme.

By 1997, the castle theme was dying out. Weak set design certainly played a part, but it also indicated changes in the play-style of most children. LEGO Castle was all but dead. After the Fright Knight line, LEGO finally pulled the plug on the classic-castle theme. LEGO Pirates and Space suffered similar fates. In 2000, LEGO introduced KK, but it was far removed from its predecessors. Story became a key focus. Still, the line continued to draw on traditional images of castles, and knights. Ultimately, the line was killed. Move forward to 2004...

KKII is finally introduced. This line has almost nothing in common with previous castle lines. Gone are the drab greys and blacks of yesteryear. Colourful armour, and futuristic helmets are the name of the game. Instead of horses, we are given wheeled horses and 'slammers'. In order to reach a wider audience, our heroes are given diverse names like Santis, Jayku and Vladek, instead of the decidedly-English Cedric and Leo. Heavy juniorization clearly establishes that these are playsets, not building sets. Each set comes with a fantastic comic (as seen in KKI) telling children how to play with their sets.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking KKII. I just don't feel that it is connected in any shape or form to the castle theme of 1978-1997.

Story or no, fact is that this is LEGO castle.

In your opinion.

We will not see a return to the 80's castle sets, box designs, or building styles.  For a good reason too.  Set wise Royal Knights were one of the best, yet sales were dropping off.  Was it getting stale?  Bionicle and it's storyline is constantly changing.  Castle wasn't.  Pirate wasn't either.

I don't expect LEGO to return to the 1980s. Children's play habbits have changed. To expect a return to the 'good old days' as it were is hardly reasonable. LEGO's current lines are consistent with trends in children's programing and entertainment. These sets are simpler than their predecessors, making them more accessable. Characters with names are easier to identify, strengthening the LEGO brand with children. Kids want simple snap together toys that they can throw together in a few simple combinations in order to play. KKII has given kids characters they can bond with, not unlike their favorite cartoon and comic characters.

I'm sorry, this reply is taking far too long. I'm going to cut it off here. Personally, I don't believe that KKII is a continuation of the castle theme. It is its own theme, just like Alpha Team, Adventures, Dino Attack, and City are distinct identifiable themes. LEGO castle and Knight's Kingdom are two different themes. I don't consider Ninja to be part of the castle theme, and I certainly don't consider KKII to be an extension of classic castle.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia. This set had a great assortment of bricks, and a large assortment of minifigs that has rarely been matched. It had a large piece count and allowed for an infinite number of varried MOCs. This set was truly a set for builders, and has since become popular with collectors!

When the yellow Castle was initially released there wasn't a Castle theme was there?

[blueandwhite]

When the yellow Castle was initially released there wasn't a Castle theme was there?

Nope.

In a lot of ways, 375 was pre-castle. Originally, it was sold along with LEGO town. Castle as a clearly defined theme didn't come about until 1984. I can understand if some people don't really consider it to be part of the castle theme. Still, this was the set that inspired the 1984-1997 castle line. It still shares more with the classic-castle theme than KKII does.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

Wasn't it also re-released in 1984 with the new number 6075?

[blueandwhite]

Wasn't it also re-released in 1984 with the new number 6075?

No, 6075 (the yellow castle, not BF fortress) is the number for the US release of 375. It was released in 1981, 3 years before 6080.

[SuvieD]

The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia.  This set had a great assortment of bricks, and a large assortment of minifigs that has rarely been matched.  It had a large piece count and allowed for an infinite number of varried MOCs.  This set was truly a set for builders, and has since become popular with collectors!

Many LEGO sets sold for up to 5 years in days gone by. The market has changed. You will not find a set under $100 that will make it five years now. ISD is getting close but it is a novelty $300 set.

Harry Potter has a castle. Yet, everyone knows this is not LEGO castle. Why, because it is a place in a story that uses a castle, no of course not. The reason it is not castle is it lacks what LEGO castle has established itself to be. There are no catapults, no conflict, no horse with barding, no living armored knights, no carraiges or jousts. LEGO castle is this. I said before each LEGO castle era had a different face, so to does this era of KK2. Lumping 1978-1997 is hardly fair as everything from 78-84 is entirely different than 84-92 and a far cry from 93-98. Classic just like Coke is the original (minus illegal substances). 78-84 is classic. Everything else is a different. Sprite is not Coke but it is a Coke product. So to is every castle series since. It is not the original nor is it an old flavor but that doesn't make it any less a Coke product.

QUOTE 

The yellow castle pretty much sucked.  The reason people like it so much is that it stirs up a warm fuzzy nostalgia for those who played with it as children.

Now this is something I strongly disagree with. The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia. This set had a great assortment of bricks, and a large assortment of minifigs that has rarely been matched. It had a large piece count and allowed for an infinite number of varried MOCs. This set was truly a set for builders, and has since become popular with collectors!

Yellow castle had an awful variety of pieces. Almost anything you make with it looks the same. The horse would fall apart, the figures were much more delicate than the ones we have now and it simply doesn't compare to sets like 6080, 6090, 6074, 6079, 6081, 6085, 6086, 6091, 8781, or even 8877. These sets have building opportunities beyond anything 375 ever could achieve.

The only reason classic sets have such high value is because they are harder to come by in decent condition. Not because they are superior products. Forestmen are much more in demand than the old knights from 375, only availibility drives prices up. 8877 has more pieces and six less figures than 375. Yet can you really compare the two? What could you make with your yellow castle, a blocky yellow fort, a blocky yellow tower, a different blocky yellow castle, a blocky yellow arena or even a pile of hay. What can you build with the dark fortress? A five story tower, an japanese temple, a giant seige machine, a rocky outpost, a smugglers cave, a feast hall with pillars, or even a space ship. Can you do any of that with a 375 and have people think it is cool.

LEGO castle is changing still. If you like the older style stuff, do as Sting said and build it that way. I happen to like the newer stuff colors and all. I will build in a style that suits both. Either way KK2 is still LEGO castle.

[Mister Phes]

Wasn't it also re-released in 1984 with the new number 6075?

No, 6075 (the yellow castle, not BF fortress) is the number for the US release of 375. It was released in 1981, 3 years before 6080.

What's 6080 got to do with anything?

[SuvieD]

It is the first gray castle. A completely different style than the sets before it. The start of what many consider the "golden age" of castle LEGO.

6080

Overrated gray box with a gate if you ask me.