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They were extremely limited with what they could do with Leia but I think that what they managed largely worked. It would have made more sense for Leia, not Han, to have been on the Death Star II to speak with Ben, but Han was an acceptable compromise.

 

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On 12/25/2019 at 4:44 PM, jimmynick said:

I agree. Star Wars movies are not high cinema; they are fun space opera adventures. And the new movie does the job.

People take these movies, and others, too seriously. I’m guilty of this myself. The Maze Runner for me was what did it. I really enjoyed the books but watching the first one was difficult because it didn’t follow the book very well. On it’s own, it’s a great movie with a fun story. But if you read the book, it’s a bit of a let down. So I get the grumblings. But movies like this are simply meant to be enjoyed & entertain. And this trilogy did just that. Sometimes passion needs to take a backseat. 

Edited by Vindicare

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Much like Palpatine I’ve returned inexplicably from the dead.

In short, I LOVED it! 

It’s not perfect but all in all I thought it was an excellent second outing from JJ considering how disappointing The Force Awakens was.

Palpatine

Palpatine was fantastic. The Tragedy of Darth Plaguis in Revenge of the Sith has a bit more depth to it now beyond being another tactic to seduce Anakin. It speaks to his greater motivation. Plus all of the new canon books for years have made Palpatine’s primary goal his quest for immortality, although the assumption until now was that he failed completely. Unintended setup? 

His inclusion also frames the saga as this ultimate final struggle between the Jedi and the Sith. Stakes this trilogy was severely lacking. 

The Force Awakens screwed up majorly by not setting the political landscape and therefore galactic stakes properly. The Last Jedi doubled down on this. JJ was forced to pull out shorthand such as the Sith to explain Snoke and The First Order. I can live with this. 

Also, what a way to kill Palpatine, truly epic. Way better then the most powerful force user being picked up by an injured cyborg who effortlessly carries him twenty feet and throws him down a pit, despite knowing Luke survived his similar fall down a pit in the last movie.

Rey

Deisy Ridley was okay in TFA, good in TLJ, and awesome in TROS. I actually love Rey as a character now partly BECAUSE of the ultimate twist with her origin, which of course has proven divisive like anytime there is a twist in new material. Finally! Some inner turmoil she has to grapple, how novel! 

Either her parent is a product of in vitro fertilization or Palpatine got busy, and I ask why not?

Do we really think Palpatine would put all his eggs in one basket, in Vader? Once a traitor always a traitor, and as we know Palps and Vader wanted to kill eachother almost from day one. Maybe Palps sought to replace him with a child he could brainwash from day one. But that wasn’t necessary once Luke pops out of nowhere as a more developed, potential apprentice.

Overall Thoughts

The final scene was such a perfect way to close everything out. Again another divisive choice apparently, that I think makes perfect sense given the circumstances. 

A far more satisfying conclusion than Return of the Jedi for me, as someone who never cared for how sloppily Palpatine and the Empire were originally defeated.

Edited by Forresto

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Posted (edited)

 

(Assume spoilers)

It was okay but if you watch the Red Letter Media review I think it's pretty accurate.

Episode 7 was like "this is what Star Wars is! ENJOY!"

Episode 8 was like "You THOUGHT you knew what Star Wars was but it's NOT THAT" and basically went back on 7.

Then 9 was like "You THOUGHT you knew what Star Wars was and... yeah, turns out you were right!" and went back on 8.

Basically 9 is a movie that tried to work with 8 being terrible, and backtracked on a lot of things in it. It basically admits 8 sucked and took back almost everything that movie did. 

Because of this... the movie was... just REALLY fast. They were in a new place every 5 minutes. It was too much. New character? 2 minutes screen time. Old character? Rose got like 2 minutes screen time too (another thing in 8 that was basically cut back). It's a SUPER DENSE movie. It really didn't need to be quite so fast and dense. 

But it was okay. Much better than 8. I was surprised at how much I liked parts of it. They might have done as good as they could have considering 8 was complete garbage and it's hard to recover from that. I really think if JJ had done all 3 movies we'd have a really REALLY solid trilogy here. Instead we have a trilogy with a giant terrible middle and is surrounded by decent movies. 

 

It's just a shame they didn't have more time to have more interactions between characters. We get ONE scene with Poe and Rey which is pretty funny and promising. Then they're never really together again. Finn and Rey had great scenes in 7 but once again, they dodn't do much of anything together in favor of the Kylo/Rey thing (which IS the best thing, though it makes no sense why Rey would fall in love with an evil person who helped murder billions and constantly abused her...). And c3PO making the "big sacrifice" then it being taken back 5 minutes later was really freakin' dumb. R2 did basically nothing. BB8 didn't even really do anything. The new characters were made to sell toys. Lando didn't do enough. Leia's scenes were awkward since they obviously wrote around what they had (but it was about as good as they could do, so props). I just... really wanted more Poe and Finn stuff.

Edited by BrickG

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My opinion of Rise of Skywalker depends which hat I'm wearing.

If I'm wearing my relaxed, 'It's only a popcorn movie' hat, it was a fast paced, entertaining ride. Some funny bits. Glad to see the Porgs and Ewoks. Ian McDiarmid and, particularly, Adam Driver were excellent. I liked Ochi's ship.

If I'm wearing my 'objective' hat, I'd say it was a vacuous mess. The plot, if there is one, consists of racing around the galaxy looking for macguffins. I don't mind if a film has a thin plot if it looks and sounds amazing (Blade Runner 2049). Great story lines and acting can carry flimsy special effects (Blake's7). ROS has virtually nothing though. Nobody says or does anything of interest. Nobody's ever in real danger. At least TLJ had some striking imagery and scenes. 

I mean, I'm glad they're making Star Wars films. From 1983 to 1999 it looked like we would never see another. But they really need some creativity now. The prequels may have some laughable acting and dialogue but at least they were packed with memorable designs and memorable scenes. Bring back George...

 

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I expected episodes 5-8 to be the "Utapau" arc that's already known from the unfinished story reels. I'm glad to see those are actually new episodes :)

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I don't know why I'm such a glutton for punishment.

I'm watching the last season of clone wars. My opinion of clone wars is there's a few diamonds in the rough, but the rough is such poorly written crap that it doesn't matter. There are zero good episodes this season. It's all going towards a dumb direction with SPOILERS Darth Maul and Ashoka which we already know their ultimate fates, Darth Maul being killed years later by Obiwan and Ashoka clearly surviving into the Mandalorian. It wouldn't matter if we knew their fates if the story was good (like Better Call Saul!) but it's just trash. That cowboy hat wearing guy in charge of Star Wars is the worst thing to happen to Star Wars. /SPOILERS This is worse than the prequels. 

I've pretty much given up on Star Wars. It took me long enough. After 1999 with Episode I I should have just left. There's been a few good things (1 of every 20 episodes of Clone Wars, Episode 7 until 8 and 9 ruined it, blablabla) but the vast majority is worthless trash.

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On 4/26/2020 at 11:05 PM, BrickG said:

I'm watching the last season of clone wars. My opinion of clone wars is there's a few diamonds in the rough, but the rough is such poorly written crap that it doesn't matter. 

Totally agree with you on this part. I watched the entirety of Clone Wars as it was coming out, and the majority of it was cringe (not to mention the god awful "movie" that launched it). The collective online memory that Clone Wars is an amazing show was either born out of people simply not having watched it all besides good recommended arcs and episodes, or having remembered only the good to such a degree that everything else escaped their minds.

The new stuff is pretty much in keeping with the overall quality of the whole show, though with superb animation. The Bad Batch was standard Clone Wars fare of middling quality - ok action, clunky dialogue. The Martez sisters arc should've been at most two episodes. It probably could've even been accomplished in one.

I've like the Mandalore episodes so far, and I want to see what these characters were up to between Clone Wars and Rebels, or in Maul's case Clone Wars and Solo and also between Solo and Rebels. I don't think we'll really get that, but I'd be interested to see it. Knowing what happens to Mail and Ahsoka doesn't undercut stories about the interim.

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I for one have been enjoying the new season, especially the Mandalore arc. It's very emotional with lots of great action. Not sure why anyone would dislike it just because we know what happens to Ahsoka, Rex, and Maul a few years later, unless they're just so jaded that they hate everything. It's still interesting to see what these characters were up to during Order 66. The developing friendship between Ahsoka and Anakin and Rex and how that friendship is ultimately tested by the rise of the Empire is arguably what this whole series has been leading up to. I was even fine with Martez sisters arc at first, but I do agree that the second episode in that arc was pretty pointless and should have been cut. I look forward to seeing how it all wraps up next week.

On 4/29/2020 at 8:09 PM, Clone OPatra said:

I watched the entirety of Clone Wars as it was coming out, and the majority of it was cringe (not to mention the god awful "movie" that launched it). The collective online memory that Clone Wars is an amazing show was either born out of people simply not having watched it all besides good recommended arcs and episodes, or having remembered only the good to such a degree that everything else escaped their minds.

Agreed. I don't understand this consensus of the show being this amazing piece of entertainment that deserves to be mentioned alongside other animated classics such as BTAS or ATLA at all. Sure, it could be pretty good sometimes, but when it's bad, it's really bad. Like you said, this season is a perfect representation of the quality of the entire series: there are some good arcs, some bad arcs, and some great ones. If anyone thinks this season doesn't live up to the rest of the show, they're remembering it wrong.

As for Ahsoka showing up in the Mandalorian, that's cool I guess, although I really wish they wouldn't have spoiled that. It would have been so much better to see her show up out of nowhere like the Darksaber. However, people have been wanting to see a live-action Ahsoka for a while, and a cameo in a Disney+ show is a perfect way to do it. I hope it's not much more than a cameo though. One of the great things about the Mando is that they don't focus on force users and deal with completely new characters.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think that the "The Clone Wars" movie was "awful". It was pretty much like the rest of the show. Given that it is exactly that, namely a 4-episodes-arc that was released as a movie, that cannot be a surprise. As for the show as a whole, there are things I like, and there are things I don't like.

TCW Season 7 spoiler:

 

As for the last arc, I like how it plays with certrain themes or topics. We know for example that Luke regarded the Emperor's arrogance as a weakness that lead to his (very literal) downfall. When Ahsoka talked to the council, Windu clearly behaved very arrogant, and in The Clone Wars, that was a crucial moment: If he would have treated Ahsoka like an equal, she might have told the council about Maul's vision, which might have saved Windu's life. But instead, his arrogance lead to his literal downfall as well.

Edited by Brickadeer

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11 hours ago, Brickadeer said:

I don't think that the "The Clone Wars" movie was "awful". It was pretty much like the rest of the show. Given that it is exactly that, namely a 4-episodes-arc that was released as a movie, that cannot be a surprise. As for the show as a whole, there are things I like, and there are things I don't like.

I'd have to disagree on that. It's pretty unwatchable, even if you don't see it as a movie. The animation, dialogue, and story are all pretty awful and the Twilight still remains the ugliest ship in Star Wars history. The only thing the movie is good for is to showcase just how much Ahsoka has grown as a character. When you compare the chipper, nickname-spouting young padawan from the movie to the grieving, badass outcast from the finale, it's like night and day!

Speaking of which, I just watched the final episode and it was quite good.

I liked the symbolism of the Venator crashing and burning along with the Republic it represents, and the epilogue was beautiful and could be interpreted in a number of ways. It ended the show on a very somber note which is very fitting in my opinion. The only thing that disappointed me a little was that Maul didn't play a bigger role in this episode, making me wonder what the point was in having him captured at all, but I guess they just needed someone to destroy the Venator.

If more of the show was this good, I could understand why people hold it in such high regard. But hey, I guess it's better if a majority of the fandom unreasonably loves something than unreasonably hates something for once.

May the Fourth be with you everyone! :classic:

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Posted (edited)

I think it depends on the point of view 😊

To me, TCW series had a function: It made Anakin’s turn to the dark side more plausible than “Revenge of the Sith”. Consequently, the way how the Jedi Order was changed by the war was a recurring topic of the series.

Understanding why Maul was *spoiler* is crucial to understanding the whole scene when Ahsoka meets the council.

 

Ahsoka succeeded where others failed: She captured the renegade Sith Lord Maul. There can be no doubt that this is a huge achievement. Yet Ahsoka displays humility when she says she did her duty as a citizen.

Ahsoka’s hesitation to rejoin the Jedi Order, an option that clearly is on the table, causes Windu to hold back. He doesn’t share the council’s suspicions regarding the chancellor with Ahsoka: That Palpatine ultimately is the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. Instead, Windu shows pride, arrogance and self-importance: “I’m sorry, citizen, these matters are for the council to discuss.”

Windu treats her on the level of status, as a citizen and not as a Jedi, because Ahsoka chose not to be a Jedi. Ultimately, he is motivated by pride. So at this point, Windu represents what the Jedi have become. If he were as un-selfish as a Jedi was supposed to be, Ahsoka’s achievement and her apparent dedication for the cause would have justified to treat her as an equal, no matter what her status is, and to share the information about the chancellor.

But that doesn’t happen, and as a consequence, Ahsoka holds back as well.

In other words, the pieces of information that could have ended Palpatine’s plot and prevented Anakin's fall to the dark side do not come together. They remain separate, and the reasons are impersonated differences that cannot be overcome and to me, this situation is reflected by the name of the episode:

Shattered.

So the whole scene wouldn't work on this level if Ahsoka hadn't captured Maul.

Edited by Brickadeer

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On 5/4/2020 at 7:20 PM, Brickadeer said:

I don't think that the "The Clone Wars" movie was "awful". It was pretty much like the rest of the show. Given that it is exactly that, namely a 4-episodes-arc that was released as a movie, that cannot be a surprise.

  Reveal hidden contents

As for the last arc, I like how it plays with certrain themes or topics. We know for example that Luke regarded the Emperor's arrogance as a weakness that lead to his (very literal) downfall. When Ahsoka talked to the council, Windu clearly behaved very arrogant, and in The Clone Wars, that was a crucial moment: If he would have treated Ahsoka like an equal, she might have told the council about Maul's vision, which might have saved Windu's life. But instead, his arrogance lead to his literal downfall as well.

If your argument is that it wasn't awful because it was like the rest of the show, well yeah, I found a lot of the show pretty awful! Just because it's one show, it doesn't have one uniform quality, and in fact I'd argue it's much more inconsistent than a lot of shows. Many shows have good and bad whole seasons, whereas TCW jumps around in quality like crazy within seasons. And it stayed that way the entire time even through the new Season 7.

Season 5 had some of the most amazing stuff, like the final Ahsoka arc which I loved and the Mandalore episodes, solid stuff like Onderon which opened the season, middling silly stuff with the younglings arc, and the boring unwatchable (in my opinion of course) droids in the void arc.

So, even when the show should have hit its stride, it was still all over the place.

The finale arc was fantastic. I do think that the force wielders were given a bit of an OP boost, but I'd have to re-watch the whole show to see if that was consistent or not. It certainly isn't consistent with the PT and OT, and is more of ST realm power, so maybe that's why I didn't like it.

The animation, music and visual storytelling though were all so well done.

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Combat in The Clone Wars is just baby levels of terrible. What do I mean by that? I would legit complain about the stupid combat if I was anything older than a baby.

"I can't hold them off much longer!" says Rex (was it him in the finale? Since they're all clones unlike some people I can't freakin' tell the difference and don't feel like I know any of them since I don't know which one it is at any given time!). As he, while standing still, shoots a lot of other clones. The whole army, missing him, a stationary target without any cover.

It's RIDICULOUS levels of bad.

At one point Darth Maul takes some sections of door/wall or something and uses it to block the enemy blaster shots. Pretty cool. But wait, why don't they SHOOT HIS LEGS!? Are they all THAT STUPID!? 

The Clone Wars might have had some cool episodes, but even in most of the decent ones (and the last arch wasn't bad) it's got irredeemably bad crap going on. This show was written by idiots. The cowboy hat guy who seems to control half of Star Wars these days is the worse thing to happen to Star Wars.

 

"But wait, the Storm Troopers missed a lot in the Original Trilogy." - In episode IV they literally let them go. In V and VI they didn't actually miss too often and actually managed to capture the heroes (VI) and take their base (Hoth). It wasn't Han or Luke standing in the middle of an empty room shooting armies that can't hit them back. They always had cover. Leia got shot too! Meanwhile Ashoka in the finale got shot 3 TIMES! 3 TIMES! And literally nothing happened. WAHT!!??

I should stop. 

 

It's just SO STUPID. 

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56 minutes ago, BrickG said:

I should stop.

Yes, yes you should. All your complaints are very nitpicky and you're getting way too worked up about them. The clones are no worse shots than the stormtroopers. Bad shots are kind of par for the course in Star Wars. If that's such a big issue for you, you really should just stop watching Star Wars and relax a little. And if you really can't recognize one of the show's main characters after 7 season, I have to wonder if you really watched it at all.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BrickG said:

*snip*

The whole series is about storytelling. It's not about showing realistic combat situations.

As for the scene with Ahsoka and Rex, it shows them fighting against overwhelming odds. Ahsoka can't prevent Maul from escaping, so she has to let him go. Then, she and Rex have to move, and they were lucky to survive.

You seem to suggest that the story would have had a different outcome if combat was "more realistic". But that is not the case. "Fighting against overwhelming odds" could have been visualized differently, but the point is that how it is visualized is a comparatively unimportant aspect of the story.

As for the scene with Maul, it has to be viewed in context with a previous dialogue between Bo Katan and Ahsoka. Bo Katan says that Maul's cage was designed to imprison "force-wielding maniacs." That was a joke, and Ahsoka briefly smiled.

When Maul is released from the cage, he is basically unstoppable. And unlike Ahsoka, he is a forcewielding maniac. The underlying theme of both scenes are "power" and "control of power". There's a very fine line marking the difference between Ahsoka and Maul: Ahsoka exceutes self-restraint and puts her abilities in the service of the "greater good". Maul, on the other Hand, only serves himself. But the point is that they both made the decisions for themselves, and no mundane power can enforce its will on them. That's in part why people start to question the Jedi's legitimacy, and what causes unrest in "normal" people like the Martez sisters.

Edited by Brickadeer

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Presentation matters in story and how this show presents itself as a joke. Some of the stories are pretty good (I enjoyed that whole one where Anakin temporarily knows he turns into Vader and becomes evil, the Force Planet one). But it's a failure on their part that it's so unbelievably bad sometimes visually and story wise. And oh GOD are some of the episodes terrible on every single level.

What I'm commenting mainly on is the same thing as before. There's good stuff. There's bad stuff. The quality is so all over the place IMO it takes away from the whole and basically actively helps continue the tradition of ruining Star Wars. If the best defense of a garbage show is "well, some of the episodes are GREAT" that's not much of a defense. The main thing I want is some CONSISTENCY. Star Wars has anything but and it really hurts it. Star Wars OT are my favorite movies. Scattered among the other forms of media some amazing stuff. Diamonds in the rough, and the rough is often pure garbage baby-level terrible stuff that I have to wonder about any adult individual who likes some of the worst of it. Or who doesn't look at the logical failures, even in-universe. The fact that I think Han Solo would be smart enough to shoot Maul's feet breaks everything. The fact that suiciding faster than light into a whole fleet and wondering why they don't do that again (besides an off comment on how it's 1 in a million) breaks Star Wars. The fact that Luke acts like an idiot breaks Star Wars. Clone Wars having totally different rules in it's universe breaks Star Wars. I miss the days when the biggest issue was dumb teddy bears. You can't have a franchise that used to exude a certain quality go unscathed after decades of mostly garbage is released for it.

Star Wars doesn't make any sense within it's own universe and lore. Star Wars's quality ranges from total garbage to absolutely amazing. And any great stuff it has going on in modern times is plagued and hidden by the terrible crap that surrounds it.

Star Wars is broken. 

 

*runs away*

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I think there is room for debate as for what is good about the show and what isn't, and what someone may find likeable about certain episodes, and others not.

I agree that consistency within the Star Wars universe as a whole has value. I do not see, though, that TCW has created major inconsistencies. In the TCW, Jedi and other force wielders do amazing things like jumping from high buildings etc. That might create a potential inconsistency with the fall and the death of Sidious in "Return of the Jedi". I'd consider it to be "potential", because the problem may be explained away relatively easy by assuming that he may have survived the fall, but not the destruction of the Death Star.

But I do not think that in this particular case an incosistency could be avoided if the Star Wars universe was to evolve. I do not see, though, that TCW has "totally different rules in it's universe". TCW makes the Star Wars universe more fantastic, and I think that some things that work in an animated show may not work in a live action show. But I'm ok with that.

I agree, though, that the FTL suiciced attack of Admiral Hodo bears the question why droids didn't use that tactic in the clone wars and yes, it creates a major inconsistency that easily could have been avoided. After all, Star Wars is not Star Trek and simply not science fiction. But still, in-universe plausibility is important. (How again could the empire land AT-ATs on Hoth if the moon was surrounded by a shield?)

And I'd generally agree that Lucasfilm could and should make a better job in expanding the Star Wars universe. And if you say that the sequel trilogy makes their job infinitely more difficult, I'd agree as well.

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I don't think BrickG was talking about consistency within the universe, for the most part @Brickadeer, he was mainly talking about consistency in quality of Star Wars media.

And yes, to me it's also a problem, and it's maddeningly been that way ever since Star Wars existed. Hell, as soon as the Holiday Special was made, it was clear Star Wars was going to be in for a bumpy ride forever.

To be honest @BrickG, I for one agree with most of your points. The combat in TCW is generally abysmal. I'm not that bothered by it because I've come to terms with it being mainly a middling quality kids show a long time ago, but it would be elevated if they'd put more effort in. Even in the Bad Batch episodes, they just charge into blaster fire from a bajillion Battle Droids and then "look for cover" or run straight into the droids some more. It's laughably unbelievable.

I've been bothered from the very beginning with this show that Battle Droids are all comic relief characters. In fact, what struck me from the beginning is that most of the characterisations are taken straight out of the opening sequence of Episode III, ignoring the fact that those characterisations are isolated and are different in different parts of the films. For instance, Battle Droids are primarily serious killing machines like they should be in Episodes I and II, but George made them all silly in the opening of Episode III. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan are pretty serious in all three prequels, but are at their most chipper and jokey in the opening of Episode III. George probably leaned more into comedy in that sequence (which does end in a decapitation though lol) since the rest of the film was going to be pretty grim.

The Clone Wars show took that opening of Episode III and went, well that's what everything is like, ignoring that those characters are like that in those circumstances but not others (besides Battle Droids which are just over the top for no reason). I know that the Clone Wars is what George wanted, but what George wants isn't often very good.

In the final episode, where I thought it might go and what I thought might have been slightly better is if Rex turfed all of those troopers. Ahsoka could still be all noble and not want to kill them, but Rex would deeply understand that they're really bred for this, and yes they're his "brothers" but they're also bred to be killing machines who won't stop, so he should blast them all into space. Dave sort of upped the stakes by having our heroes actually get hit at all, but then those hits didn't matter, so yeah it did seem odd.

Also not a fan of Jedi pulling on accelerating starships now Sequel Trilogy style. If they can do that, they'd be doing it all the time. Darth Vader would've held the Millennium Falcon back from leaving Hoth for sure.

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Posted (edited)

I think of inconsistencies between the PT+OT and TCW this way: TCW is the Clone Wars told from the perspective of Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka the way they'd like to remember it.  Matt Lanter's Anakin is the wise, good, heroic but also troubled Jedi that old Ben Kenobi wants to remember when he reminisces with Luke about his father; Hayden Christensen's Anakin is the surly, vengeful, murderous man he really was.  Likewise, TCW's Obi-Wan is a bit livelier, wittier, more sarcastic than Ewan McGregor's performance because that's the way old Ben wants to remember his time in the war; it's a way of suppressing the pain of its traumatic beginning and end (and middle, since it's war).

Edit: the Anakin we see in TCW is Anakin as Obi-Wan wants to remember him, and also Anakin as Darth Vader wants to remember his former self: good, selfless, heroic and troubled but JUSTIFIABLY troubled .... There are elements of truth to the corruption and hubris we see bringing the Jedi down in TCW, but the Jedi really aren't quite as bad as all that, all things considered.  Vader and Kenobi just have to emphasize their faults in what they remember.  Vader does to tell himself the lie that everything he's done is justified and he's glad to be where he is now in order to suppress his feelings to the contrary, and Kenobi does to try to come to terms with the downfall of everything that was ever important to him in his youth.  So in TCW as the way they choose to remember the Clone Wars, we see the heroism and prowess of their own selves and other Jedi selectively highlighted along with the hubris and arrogance of the Jedi Order.

Edited by icm

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