Star Wars

[N-4K0]

7 hours ago, the last chronicler said:

 

Luke was closed off from the Force and therefore the past Jedi, you watched the movie right?

Of course, how did I forget that?

[x105Black]

11 hours ago, the last chronicler said:

Luke was closed off from the Force and therefore the past Jedi, you watched the movie right? Anyways, all these are just fan rewrites to eliminate the conflict which makes the story, as in you literally destroy the story, the reason people go see a movie. Even saying Luke should have lived and Leia should have died fundamentally undercuts the narrative and themes of the film for the sake of fan peace of mind. I get that fans are upset that they lost closure because of the death of a real person causes trouble for a franchise, but seriously, to alter the scenes Carrie filmed for TLJ actually does a disservice to her as an actor as well as the filmmaker's work (yeah Rian Johnson).

Besides, Leia's absence or death could drive the IX story, and therefore Kylo Ren, the same way Luke's disappearance does in TFA. Her role becomes symbolic, plus now Kylo goes from the haunting failure of the trio's legacy to being the last Skywalker, which could have dramatic narrative value.

Personally, I think fans wanted a clear and safe map for this trilogy as soon as TFA ended with the Empire-type separation of the heroes, but TLJ continues the story and themes pretty naturally despite not being ESB, which I think upsets people who did not want the franchise to say something new but play within the previous box. TFA does that well, but like ANH it was meant to be light fare in response to an era of negativity, (TFA fixes the franchise, ANH was a response to the previous pessimistic decade in American society), but TLJ introduces a sense of authorship from Rian Johnson the matches the creative spirit of the original while depicting a genuine struggle like ESB. I think fans wanted the scope and Hollywood sheen of ESB which made it famous, but not a story with actually originality. In that case TFA is still the ESB successor you're looking for.

On that note, it is insane to think JJ's Luke was different from Rian's.  If that where true, why did Rey need to show up with the Skywalker saber, why was she holding it up to Luke? "Oh hey, thanks for bringing that lightsaber I lost 30 years ago, the one the represents my family's failure and ultimately the Jedi ideology (which could not stop my family's failure), but that does not matter, I was wondering what happened to it. Now where was I? Oh yeah missing for 5 years but now I can stab people with 2 lightsabers instead of one!" If he joined her, not only would in not follow any logic whatsoever, but if Luke agreed with Rey that her experiences in TFA of the struggles of the OT returning means the galaxy needs Luke again, then that would literally make them the same character. Rey just a stand-in for Luke's journey in TFA because Hamill was too old and too frozen iconically on that cliff edge to star.

I can pretty much argue against all major TLJ complaints because they are strawman logic created after the fact to justify fans hating that they didn't get the film they wanted, complaints found and spread in discussion boards by people who saw the film once and had a negative or confusing response to a dense and layered (but straightforward) film. They missed some detail or were told some detail was missing that was not, then tried to blame their dislike on the story being haphazardly written rather than their ability to pay attention (innocent ignorance) and accepting the story they were given.

You can argue all you want, but you will fail.  The Last Jedi had some good points, but there was much about it that was bad, and most of the bad were the fundamentals of the movie.  The whole idea of Luke being closed to the Force is terrible, and not at all what JJ Abrams had planned for the character.

Rey bringing Luke the lightsaber should have been the impetus to get him to be the Yoda / Obi-Wan of the new trilogy and actually train her (rather than just relying on the inexplicable power she already had).

I get the idea that Johnson was trying to do something new, I just wish he hadn't done that in an Episodic Star Wars movie and waited to challenge our concepts of Star Wars in his own standalone movie.

I really don't like the direction that Johnson went with the story, I don't like his attitude about the negative fan reaction to his work, and I don't like him being involved in any future Star Wars releases.  I think the decision to let him handle this one independently rather than coming at the trilogy with a unified vision was a bad decision that has been harmful to Star Wars.

You're right, I did not get the Star Wars that I wanted.  Neither did a very substantial chunk of the fanbase.  I'm not afraid of complexity, I just felt that all of his answers to questions set up in The Force Awakens were dissatisfying.

[the last chronicler]

3 hours ago, x105Black said:

You can argue all you want, but you will fail.  The Last Jedi had some good points, but there was much about it that was bad, and most of the bad were the fundamentals of the movie.  The whole idea of Luke being closed to the Force is terrible, and not at all what JJ Abrams had planned for the character.

Rey bringing Luke the lightsaber should have been the impetus to get him to be the Yoda / Obi-Wan of the new trilogy and actually train her (rather than just relying on the inexplicable power she already had).

I get the idea that Johnson was trying to do something new, I just wish he hadn't done that in an Episodic Star Wars movie and waited to challenge our concepts of Star Wars in his own standalone movie.

I really don't like the direction that Johnson went with the story, I don't like his attitude about the negative fan reaction to his work, and I don't like him being involved in any future Star Wars releases.  I think the decision to let him handle this one independently rather than coming at the trilogy with a unified vision was a bad decision that has been harmful to Star Wars.

You're right, I did not get the Star Wars that I wanted.  Neither did a very substantial chunk of the fanbase.  I'm not afraid of complexity, I just felt that all of his answers to questions set up in The Force Awakens were dissatisfying.

You are right that JJ didn't plan on Luke giving up the Jedi way and disconnecting from the Force, because George Lucas planned it before JJ even joined the writing team. The idea was hardcoded into the thinking for this trilogy, but JJ wanted to delay it and do a cool (Han Solo-like) action-packed nostagic journey to introduce the characters first. Frankly, the trilogy may have benefited from Rian directing the first film and ripping the bandaid off early even if it annoyed fans. If you want a bad story Rian did not need to do Luke the way he did, but it is the choice that holds together the entire conflict, and it is the right choice even if it does not feel good.

Also, the film challenges the characters, not the fanbase because the film actually deeply reinforces the themes of Star Wars. If you felt challenged or subverted then congradulations you empathized with the characters vicariously, which means the conflict was true and powerful rather then pointless fluff.

Also, the Force is controlled through instinct and Rey has a lot of that considering she had to survive alone on a planet. The whole of TFA is used to show her testing those instincts from flying the Falcon to timing the door close on the Rathtar (parrelling Luke using the Force to time the Death Star bombing in ANH). Furthermore, Luke was arguably less experienced than Rey in many aspects.

 

Also if Luke wanted to train another Jedi than why did he isolate himself? Again that makes no sense. My expectation was he was going to be more sympathetic to her (connected to her plight through the Force like Obi-Wan to Alderaan), but I accepted that once you look at the whole story set up in TFA Luke's perspective is far more poignant and personal, and the TLJ fills in the last peice of puzzle of his failure with Kylo as a poetic counterpoint to his success with Vader. He failed Ben and cannot accept that failure, seeing that the ways of the Jedi did nothing to prevent it. Just as the Jedi could not prevent the fall of the Republic. Its the tragedy and conflict that holds the whole arc of this new saga together and gives it weight. But Luke has to learn that he hasn't destroyed everything he created and find hope again.

Edited July 16, 2018 by the last chronicler

[x105Black]

1 hour ago, the last chronicler said:

You are right that JJ didn't plan on Luke giving up the Jedi way and disconnecting from the Force, because George Lucas planned it before JJ even joined the writing team. The idea was hardcoded into the thinking for this trilogy, but JJ wanted to delay it and do a cool (Han Solo-like) action-packed nostagic journey to introduce the characters first. Frankly, the trilogy may have benefited from Rian directing the first film and ripping the bandaid off early even if it annoyed fans. If you want a bad story Rian did not need to do Luke the way he did, but it is the choice that holds together the entire conflict, and it is the right choice even if it does not feel good.

Also, the film challenges the characters, not the fanbase because the film actually deeply reinforces the themes of Star Wars. If you felt challenged or subverted then congradulations you empathized with the characters vicariously, which means the conflict was true and powerful rather then pointless fluff.

Also, the Force is controlled through instinct and Rey has a lot of that considering she had to survive alone on a planet. The whole of TFA is used to show her testing those instincts from flying the Falcon to timing the door close on the Rathtar (parrelling Luke using the Force to time the Death Star bombing in ANH). Furthermore, Luke was arguably less experienced than Rey in many aspects.

 

Also if Luke wanted to train another Jedi than why did he isolate himself? Again that makes no sense. My expectation was he was going to be more sympathetic to her (connected to her plight through the Force like Obi-Wan to Alderaan), but I accepted that once you look at the whole story set up in TFA Luke's perspective is far more poignant and personal, and the TLJ fills in the last peice of puzzle of his failure with Kylo as a poetic counterpoint to his success with Vader. He failed Ben and cannot accept that failure, seeing that the ways of the Jedi did nothing to prevent it. Just as the Jedi could not prevent the fall of the Republic. Its the tragedy and conflict that holds the whole arc of this new saga together and gives it weight. But Luke has to learn that he hasn't destroyed everything he created and find hope again.

I felt challenged in the sense that I felt Rian Johnson put this movie out to challenge people like me to see if we would still love Star Wars if there was a crappy one.  I do still like Star Wars, I just don't like this crappy one.

My belief was that Luke was isolated because he found the first Jedi temple and wanted to meditate on the things he learned there.  And then, when Rey came with the lightsaber, he would realize he still has some good to do in this galaxy and he would train her to defeat Kylo Ren.

[the last chronicler]

2 hours ago, x105Black said:

I felt challenged in the sense that I felt Rian Johnson put this movie out to challenge people like me to see if we would still love Star Wars if there was a crappy one.  I do still like Star Wars, I just don't like this crappy one.

My belief was that Luke was isolated because he found the first Jedi temple and wanted to meditate on the things he learned there.  And then, when Rey came with the lightsaber, he would realize he still has some good to do in this galaxy and he would train her to defeat Kylo Ren.

Han said Luke threw it all away. And Luke was conflicted when Rey arrived. As well, before TLJ there was no evidence of any Jedi knowledge left at the temple. Also, as we know from the OT Luke is not a big fan of lessons, and is skeptical about his own abilities. He looked over the books and found no answers, because the point of the film is the force is part of everything, not just some secret Jedi knowledge. If you argue that Luke found some Jedi info that would fix the problem of Kylo Ren that sounds more like the Wookiepedia article version of the movie rather than one about the struggle at hand. It does not improve the trilogy's core conflict or theme. Furthermore, Luke does realize he still has good to do, even if he can't redeem Kylo Ren himself.

To be fair, Luke learning something at the temple that PREVENTED him from joining the fight was my first conclusion even before the film's title was released, but if Luke's motives in this film was what bothered you in the movie called The Last Jedi and whose infamous trailer line was "it is time for the Jedi to end," than TLJ never even had a chance to meet your expectations because you already invalidated the premise and disliked the film before it came out.

Edited July 17, 2018 by the last chronicler

[samurai-turtle]

Have any of you seen the video (or theory) comparing The Last Jedi with Escape form LA (or NY). {Technical I haven't seen either Escape movies.} The video I seen basically show side by side of both movies. The Last Jedi's ending just copied the ending of the Escape movie. So if you want to complain about The Force Awakens about being unoriginal be sure to take a good look at The Last Jedi. It kinda makes me wonder what other movies Rian Johnson cloned and put into The Last Jedi. 

[the last chronicler]

1 hour ago, samurai-turtle said:

Have any of you seen the video (or theory) comparing The Last Jedi with Escape form LA (or NY). {Technical I haven't seen either Escape movies.} The video I seen basically show side by side of both movies. The Last Jedi's ending just copied the ending of the Escape movie. So if you want to complain about The Force Awakens about being unoriginal be sure to take a good look at The Last Jedi. It kinda makes me wonder what other movies Rian Johnson cloned and put into The Last Jedi. 

Well I also haven't seen them either, but looking at the TLJ scene tonally its closer too, and both seem to be inspired by, the ending of A Fistful of Dollars from the 1960s: the Clint Eastwood western which was also referenced and copied in Back to the Future Part III. Fistful of Dollars was also a remake of the Samurai film Yojimbo whose climax is a swordsman taking down multiple gunman. TLJ using the showdown trope in a way that is similar to a different movie is not that big of a deal, the creators of Breaking Bad for example openly admit the finale is inspired by the ending of the John Ford Western The Searchers, and they've taken from The Godfather films as well.

EDIT: The whole ten minutes of Escape's ending is done quite differently from TLJ, the army shooting part is the closest and could be homage, but it's part of the reveal rather than the buildup like TLJ.

Edited July 17, 2018 by the last chronicler

[TWRAddict]

Clone Wars is being revived: 

 

[Agent Kallus]

I'm incredibly pleased by this news.

[Tariq j]

It may only be 12 episodes, but I'm very happy by the news. It's good to see they've kept the same animation style as well. It's going to be interesting seeing the Anakin - Ahsoka reunion here, especially as we know how there fight in Rebels plays out. 

I'm curious to see what this means in terms of Lego. That 501st Battle pack doesn't seem so far away now 

[Master_Data]

This is amazing!!!!

How many episodes will it be? Is it just going to be a limited run like The Lost Missions?

Are we going to get that amazing Boba Fett vs.Cad Bane episode?

1 hour ago, Tariq j said:

It may only be 12 episodes, but I'm very happy by the news. It's good to see they've kept the same animation style as well. It's going to be interesting seeing the Anakin - Ahsoka reunion here, especially as we know how there fight in Rebels plays out. 

I'm curious to see what this means in terms of Lego. That 501st Battle pack doesn't seem so far away now 

Is that official? How are they going to do that episode considering they spoiled it after they canceled the show?

[Daimar]

I am a big fan of the Clone Wars series, not so much of some of the sets (mainly because of the horrible minifig faces, the builds themselves were great), but the cartoon was really good and fun. I allways hoped, that Filloni would find a way to show us the last episodes, that he planed. Since I saw seargent Hunter in the trailer I am verry happy that we will finaly see the Bad Batch properly animated, I really loved that story reel of them.

Spoiler

I asume we will also see the episodes on Utapau (that were also part of the released story reels) and the conflict on Mandalore with Ahsoka, Rex and the orange troopers with Ahsokas Markings, that would be 12 episodes then. There were also some story reels of Bobba and Bane on Tatooine, the Bad Batch on Kashyyyk and Ahsoka traveling to the deepest levels of Coruscant, but I asume, those will not be included.

Its a shame that we probably wont get to see an animated version of "Dark disciple" (since it was made in to a book) and "Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir" (because they already made a comic), but who knows. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Daimar

[x105Black]

So I heard that they found a way to include Leia in Episode IX using unused footage.  Much better than having her die off screen.  I expect IX to be much better than VIII, which won't be difficult.  I look forward to watching it at home.

[the last chronicler]

https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-ix-cast-announced

Here's the full main cast list. Personally I think TLJ was actively trying to create the most desperate hour for the characters, to create the second act antithesis to TFA's 'bring back SW' thesis, and that starving of the audience of cartharsis creates a lesson while also making the success in IX that much more sweet. I think TLJ needs the potential to be credited for that because if IX is good critics will say it is in spite of TLJ, and if it is bad it will be because of TLJ according to them. 

Also, I noticed that if Luke simply wanted to take himself out of the battle by going to Atch-To, knowing the danger of Kylo and Snoke he would have taken new apprentices to the first temple. Therefore we can deduce he did not want to train new Jedi putting us back to square one with TLJ Luke not wanting to train Rey Yoda-style anyhow, without the reasons Rian gives it becomes out of selfish cowardice instead of his moral beliefs. It makes the most sense for his motivation that Luke did not train more Jedi because he stopped believing in their neccesity and his own ability.

[x105Black]

4 hours ago, the last chronicler said:

https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-ix-cast-announced

Here's the full main cast list. Personally I think TLJ was actively trying to create the most desperate hour for the characters, to create the second act antithesis to TFA's 'bring back SW' thesis, and that starving of the audience of cartharsis creates a lesson while also making the success in IX that much more sweet. I think TLJ needs the potential to be credited for that because if IX is good critics will say it is in spite of TLJ, and if it is bad it will be because of TLJ according to them. 

Also, I noticed that if Luke simply wanted to take himself out of the battle by going to Atch-To, knowing the danger of Kylo and Snoke he would have taken new apprentices to the first temple. Therefore we can deduce he did not want to train new Jedi putting us back to square one with TLJ Luke not wanting to train Rey Yoda-style anyhow, without the reasons Rian gives it becomes out of selfish cowardice instead of his moral beliefs. It makes the most sense for his motivation that Luke did not train more Jedi because he stopped believing in their neccesity and his own ability.

I believe that Episode IX will suffer from what TLJ has laid out.  I also believe that if it is good it is because it was able to rise above that and still create something great.  And I believe that if it is bad, it will likely be because there weren't any good places to take it after TLJ destroyed any story threads I was interested in.

Luke didn't want to train any more Jedi, that's true.  But Luke should have been training Rey to be more than a Jedi.  A new way of harnessing the force that isn't split in a light dark dichotomy, but instead is something better.  That's what I was hoping for when Luke said it was "time for the Jedi to end" in the trailer.

[the last chronicler]

7 hours ago, x105Black said:

I believe that Episode IX will suffer from what TLJ has laid out.  I also believe that if it is good it is because it was able to rise above that and still create something great.  And I believe that if it is bad, it will likely be because there weren't any good places to take it after TLJ destroyed any story threads I was interested in.

Luke didn't want to train any more Jedi, that's true.  But Luke should have been training Rey to be more than a Jedi.  A new way of harnessing the force that isn't split in a light dark dichotomy, but instead is something better.  That's what I was hoping for when Luke said it was "time for the Jedi to end" in the trailer.

I don't think we have the full story on what is happening with the Jedi and the future of the force, and I think that is part of the further plot threads in the final chapter. I'm a fan of destroying the dichotomy, but I feel grey always feels like just creating a third option out of Sith and Jedi beliefs making the old beliefs evil retroactively, or as some say say its like balancing helping a lady cross the street by pushing another into traffic. The problem is that TFA, by unfolding the plot through mystery, was less driven by suspense and more by the audiences lack of knowledge broken by revelations that assure fans they are watching 'good-old OT-style Star Wars.' The tension is created in the audiences minds by using mysteries to recreate familiar tropes.

TLJ creates real suspense and conflict for the characters based on events that happened to them, and because suspense is about uncertainty it puts the audience on the same page as the characters in knowing how events will transpire . In contrast, in TFA there is no danger because mystery is just about revealing how characters will solve the problem, not if it will be resolved. TFA's Mystery works as narrative drive for fans because there is no uncertainty that the heroes won't find Luke (So much so the plot nearly forgets about it when the Republic is destroyed), only uncertainty in how they get there with surprises of nostalgia. Whereas TLJ removes that artificial safety net, making the future of the galaxy uncertain until the very last scene. The consequence is the film feels like it's destroying plot threads  when in reality it is just actually playing the conflict out and telling the story, and one has to empathize with the characters in their own struggle rather than rely on the simple anticipation of Skywalker's return. Thereby, actual suspense which is at the core of storytelling is seen by some fans as negative because for them the tension is between whether they'll get the 'Star Wars they want' or not, rather than the actual story of the films. The film destroys any sense of plot assurances, confused by fans as story.

I think a lot of fans distanced themselves mentally very early in TLJ as it placed them in dangerous uncertain waters, because you do not know how the story will end unlike TFA, Rogue One, and Solo which are simply mysteries restoring the franchise status-quo. To quote Rian Johnson's writing, fans--without a carrot on a stick with Luke--cut themselves of from 'the Force' per-se making it impossible to empathize with the TLJ journey, because they are not given a destination they know. Do you know what will happen in ESB by watching ANH? No. Now fans are uncomfortable with two years waiting in uncertainty and blame it on the movie, when that is exactly what it should do.

Edited July 30, 2018 by the last chronicler

[x105Black]

I disagree that what you describe is a good thing.  I also disagree with your opinions on the grey area between Jedi and Sith.

I distanced myself from TLJ very early.  It was in that scene with Poe contacting the First Order, where he is put on hold as if he was calling First Order Customer Service.  That was terrible.  I was willing to let that slide at first, but as it went on, things just kept snowballing.

You are correct in that you do not know what will happen in ESB by watching ANH.  I do know, however, that what ESB presented to me, based on the story I know beforehand in ANH, was satisfactory.  I also know that what TLJ presented me, based on the story I know beforehand in the OT and PT, was not at all satisfactory.  If TFA represents the OT, then TLJ represents the PT.

So while you saw originality and consequence, and claim it was good not to appeal to the fans, I saw bad jokes that reminded me of the worst parts of the PT, and wished that the movie had not answered every question from TFA in such awful, and in my opinion, uninteresting ways.  This is an opinion I will not be swayed from, as I'm sure you will not be swayed from yours.

[the last chronicler]

12 hours ago, x105Black said:

I disagree that what you describe is a good thing.  I also disagree with your opinions on the grey area between Jedi and Sith.

I distanced myself from TLJ very early.  It was in that scene with Poe contacting the First Order, where he is put on hold as if he was calling First Order Customer Service.  That was terrible.  I was willing to let that slide at first, but as it went on, things just kept snowballing.

You are correct in that you do not know what will happen in ESB by watching ANH.  I do know, however, that what ESB presented to me, based on the story I know beforehand in ANH, was satisfactory.  I also know that what TLJ presented me, based on the story I know beforehand in the OT and PT, was not at all satisfactory.  If TFA represents the OT, then TLJ represents the PT.

So while you saw originality and consequence, and claim it was good not to appeal to the fans, I saw bad jokes that reminded me of the worst parts of the PT, and wished that the movie had not answered every question from TFA in such awful, and in my opinion, uninteresting ways.  This is an opinion I will not be swayed from, as I'm sure you will not be swayed from yours.

I'm not saying it would be satisfactory to you, I'm saying to make a film that simple satisfies your expectations based on the original films is not telling a story because there is no change. If you want that satisfaction you just re-watch the originals. Also, what made the prequels bad was they had no drama or story, pointless comedy that was distracting was part of the consequence.

It is interesting you jump back to the jokes, because there is a great article about fan expectations (Starting with Star Wars but speaking in broad terms) and toxicity that gets to the heart of the thing in fans living vicariously through their franchise, and how ultimately it comes down to that it is not uncommon for fans, in expressing their disgust with TLJ, reveal they feel personally not taken seriously because the franchise is not being taken 'seriously.' That the jokes are making fun of them when they clearly are not, revealing the truth of how they view the franchise are part them existentially. Ironically, TLJ is all about subverting those selfish experiences, up into the final shot the shows hope as an unknown hero in the child. Personally, I think the perspective stems from how we as kids take things more seriously, and most people see SW in that childlike innocence. I mean, you can see it with how kids took The Lego Movie as a drama. And can you really say Star Wars, the franchise whose original film opens with a joke, has an entire sequence devoted to accidentally parking in a giant space worm, a sea monster in a spaceships trash, munchkin aliens, C3PO worshipers, is a 'serious' franchise? I find it hard to believe that one can watch the Cantina in ANH and not see the same nature of irony and humor. 

I also in my first viewing responded with surprise to the comedy in the Poe/Hux scene, even Finn's leaky suit. But I also had the same reaction in TFA to Poe saying "its hard to hear you in that mask" and "you need to try a different interrogation technique," and Rey's mindtrick. But they stick less because they are not a funny or really add to the story. Furthermore, the Hux scene actually is part of the story, and shows his character in contrast to that early Kylo TFA moment, and reveals how his "no one can betray the FO" attitude applies in his first personal confrontation with the Resistance. The film is also about the nature of miscommunication and the moment sets up that theme.

Also I would be completely fine with arguing this to the end of time, I enjoy the discussion and the ideas that come from it and I want it in public discussion. Although you haven't added to the argument anything I have not already heard, I've changed my opinion before on films so maybe you'll be able to find that one trick to blow up my entire rational (or should we learn the lesson from TLJ?). Ultimately, I think your reaction does not say much about the film itself, because in the test of time what a film is not is not remembered (Spoiler, most movies are not TLJ, not just the OT), what is remembered is what makes the film what it is. TLJ is fun and thoughtful, has resonant turning points, and has an climatic finale that pulls together all characters and plot-lines in a way that perfectly reflects its themes. I'm confident that will hold up better than any trivial reaction, and who knows, over time, all of TLJ's qualities (and those inconsistent with the OT) could be seen as better storytelling, superseding arguments for the OT's superiority to be considered the greater film. I mean, before fan negativity TLJ was (and still is with top critics) critically the most universally positively received Star Wars film, whereas ESB, as the best SW film, was actually negatively reviewed when it first came out, so TLJ has a head start.

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by the last chronicler

[x105Black]

I'm not opposed to comedy in Star Wars.  The examples you listed from the OT are all great fun.  The scene with Poe and Hux was not.  It was just bad comedy.  I don't feel the moment sets up anything, aside from a movie with poor comedy and an underwhelming take on Star Wars in general.

Maybe TLJ pulls things together to perfectly reflect its themes.  And maybe those themes shouldn't have been at the center of a Star Wars film.  Or maybe it was just how those themes were initiated in TLJ that was unsatisfactory.  This way, there is room for the satisfaction of pulling them together, but the premise itself is flawed.

I don't think TLJ has a head start at anything aside from already having a negative fan reaction.  That makes it a better candidate to become known as one of the worst, maybe even worse than the PT given enough time.  ESB over time reversed its reception among professional reviewers, going from poorly reviewed to being hailed as the greatest.  I expect the same to happen to TLJ, with professional reviewers taking the same opinion as much of the audience / fans and reversing their praise of the film.

[Cylo]

I agree with you on the scene with Poe and Hux. It was just sad.

Personally, I didn't enjoy the recent movies as much as the OT or Ep I II III

[the last chronicler]

Now I think we are talking about the subjective nature of comedy. Personally I think there are lots of cheesy jokes in Star Wars ("I thought they smelled bad, on the outside") but most are not treated with as much hostility as TLJ's jokes because people can move on, or are just accepted as the 'canon' or part of the films style, especially if watching as a kid. Obviously the scene needs to happen otherwise Poe could not charge his engine, and the scene is not as long as people remember, plus SW has always had one foot in modernity ("I'll see you in hell!") as part of its style.

Also critics do not usually re-watch or re-review movies actively, they usually base their reviews on the context of watching thousands of films in there lifetime and many a year and judge their experience. The idea that the effect which I think I'm seeing, in which a portion of the fanbase rationalizes negativity to turn a slim majority of online fans to view shock and change in TLJ as something one should feel bad about, would affect a group of critics who literally do not care that much is laughable. You have to remember ESB was not received positively by fans as well. The difference with TLJ is it is not just a good movie, it has something to say and a sense of authorship (reminds me of ANH in that way), and I think fans don't like that the movie has a stronger opinion than they do because they want to be the authority on the franchise.

Edited August 1, 2018 by the last chronicler

[x105Black]

I'm not saying current reviewers will change their minds.  I'm saying that critical reviews over time will drop from the scores it was given at release in the same way that ESB is critically reviewed as fantastic today.

[Space Police XVIII]

Apparently the next movie started filming yesterday, is anybody else excited?  I bet it'll have a death star that's bigger like a whole death PLANET no wait, been done.  Maybe some guy licking a tree to show it's not on Endor?

 

[samurai-turtle]

3 hours ago, Space Police XVIII said:

 Maybe some guy licking a tree to show it's not on Endor?

Just make them Bonsai Trees. That will show us it is completely different.  

[the last chronicler]

7 hours ago, x105Black said:

I'm not saying current reviewers will change their minds.  I'm saying that critical reviews over time will drop from the scores it was given at release in the same way that ESB is critically reviewed as fantastic today.

I see, fair argument. The thing is most reviews loved the comedy and heaviness/boldness of TLJ and saw them as a highlight. Not every joke is for anyone as I find the Hux call scene just fun but not funny, but the audiences I saw TLJ with laughed out loud at the scene, and that's a gut reaction to comedy not some online argument. There are wide ranging jokes that are funny and are liked for their fun for sure, "I've seen your daily routine, you are not busy" is genuine well timed comedy that comes right after the fantastic 'nowhere' dialog, so to say the movie is not fun makes you seem like a curmudgeon or manipulating to validate your opinion, especially stating the prequels will be seen better when, unlike TLJ, most of their parts laughed at are not the jokes. I also think scene by scene you can compare TLJ and see how great the acting and drama is in comparison to the previous Star Wars films, whereas the prequels fall flat, and TFA is often only functional in it dialog TLJ is highlighted by great performances, especially from Mark Hamill. 

 

I'm excited for IX filming, but I'm concerned about JJ's inability to write satisfying endings, TFA being his best to date.

Edited August 4, 2018 by the last chronicler