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I just spent the last week watching all of the Star Wars films, four of which for the first time ever, three of which for the second time since I was very young.

Careful consideration and analysis occurred after each viewing, mostly about plot and characters, not the effects.

I know it is heretical, but I found that my favorite was Episode I.

I didn't even mind Jar Jar Binks, and I certainly don't understand the hate for Young Anakin. He was a far better actor than teenage Anakin, and especially Luke Skywalker in Episode IV.

Take this as you will.

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I just spent the last week watching all of the Star Wars films, four of which for the first time ever, three of which for the second time since I was very young.

Careful consideration and analysis occurred after each viewing, mostly about plot and characters, not the effects.

I know it is heretical, but I found that my favorite was Episode I.

I didn't even mind Jar Jar Binks, and I certainly don't understand the hate for Young Anakin. He was a far better actor than teenage Anakin, and especially Luke Skywalker in Episode IV.

Take this as you will.

I think there is something to be said for this. Fans who come into this fairly tabula rasa have a more objective approach than long entrenched fans I think.

I too recently watched again the entire run of both trilogies and I found I tolerate the prequels (to different degrees per installment) more than I did when I was younger.

When analyzing the story as a whole though is when the prequels really fall apart for me. While I appreciate the narrative Lucas was trying to push with the prequels, in the end it was not as well told as those of the original trilogy. (Although that may not be saying much, I think a lot of the meat of OT was filled in with our minds)

Still I love me the cowboys-with-samurai-in-space soap-opera we all call Star Wars.

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My point is the Clones act as an endless mass, and the amount of time the Jedi spend looking quizzical doesn't really justify them using them as cannon fodder for a war, especially against droids that break if a butterfly lands on them. Palpatine even says the creation of life with the Force is unnatural, but for the amount of plot spent on clones in the film the Jedi don't question the morality of creating life for war at all. The army itself isn't treated as living people with motivation and empathy, they switch sides without question with that Order 66, and most of the time they aren't even played by real people.

Surely that's to be expected when it's a galactic wide conflict and the droids are also an endless mass? The same goes for Stormtroopers - they are an endless mass, do things without question, and are just faceless bad guys (who also suck at their job, unlike Clones). Even the Rebel soldiers, while not faceless, most we see lack any character and are basically extras. All the armies in Star Wars are that way, because if they spent time delving into individual characters we would have 20+ movies before the ST. And who cares that real people didn't play them in costume - they look real, and shouldn't make a difference. They also need to look the same, being Clones and all... Besides, most were motion captured by Tem Morrison or other actors. Does it matter that background Stormtroopers were played by extras but they didn't really do anything, or that scenes with large amounts of Stormies (e.g. Emperor's Arrival) was a painting with SFX on top?

If CGI existed back in the days of the OT, it would have been used extensively there too. No one complains about the uses of CGI in other modern 'masterpieces' which look worse than the Prequels, or the abundance of models and paintings used in the OT. The CGI was groundbreaking, and we wouldn't have the films we have today without those advances made in the PT. Besides, the amount of practical effects used in the PT is quite large too. Check out the thread on Jedi Council Forums! Pretty cool stuff.

R.E. Jedi.

The Jedi don't have time to question it as much as they should, that's the whole point and why Palpatine schemed it that way. They get rushed into accepting it because they cannot win the war on their own - the battle in the Arena proved that. The Force isn't on their side from the start, and the fact they rush in and are forced to accept it means Palpatine has already won (which we knew he would do anyway). The following events leading up to RotS are him cementing his position as Chancellor, twisting Anakin to be his next apprentice, and choosing which army he will use.

And regarding the morals of Jedi/Clones... do any of the Rebels question destroying Death Stars which probably had many innocent people on board, and a probably many soldiers who did not understand what they were truly doing? Nope, they just blew them up because 'bad-guys'.

You should watch the Clone Wars, where all these things you raised are explored extensively and are cannon - like it or not.

And about the droids... maybe the B1s are weak cannon fodder like Stormtroopers (who get beaten by tiny Ewoks with pebbles and sticks...), but you're forgetting the B2s and Droidekas. Mass produced cheap droid units are going to not be very good at withstanding blaster fire, but their sheer numbers overwhelm the enemy. The additional support of stronger units (as demonstrated in specific scenes in each PT film) make the droid army a very large threat.

@Jammiedodger

In regards to the Empire I completely agree. They should've lasted a while longer. In terms of the Vong you are absolutely correct. Actually what's interesting about the old EU is that you can actually look at Palpatine and not only see what he did as a power grab but an attempt to also save the human race.

So basically what happened, although you might already know this, is the Chiss were the first to encounter a Vong scout force. A young Thrawn in fact participated in one of the first battles against them. Then Thawn got involved with this whole Outbound Flight business and eventually Palpatine found out as well. Both Palpatine and Thrawn realized how grave a threat these "Outsiders" really were, which is partly why Palpatine attempted to cement Imperial rule on the galaxy. I think the belief was to pool all the galaxy's resources into a unified, Imperial, militarization in order to defeat the massive Yuzzan Vong invasion that was pretty imminent.

While the Empire is still horrible and Palpatine is evil, it puts an interesting twist on the whole EU including the motivations of Palpatine beyond just power lust.

That's the one, thanks Forresto! I remember it included Outbound Flight and Thrawn but wasn't sure how it all linked together! :classic:

I just spent the last week watching all of the Star Wars films, four of which for the first time ever, three of which for the second time since I was very young.

Careful consideration and analysis occurred after each viewing, mostly about plot and characters, not the effects.

I know it is heretical, but I found that my favorite was Episode I.

I didn't even mind Jar Jar Binks, and I certainly don't understand the hate for Young Anakin. He was a far better actor than teenage Anakin, and especially Luke Skywalker in Episode IV.

Take this as you will.

Jake Lloyd as Anakin in Episode I was fantastic, but unfortunately bullying from fanboys and others seems to have greatly contributed to his current condition. :sadnew: Really pathetic stuff seeing as he did better than most other children ever would (he was definitely better than Portman).

Regarding Jar Jar, yeah he really isn't as bad as people make out (the same goes for the movie). In a way as a character he is better morally that many others like C3-PO. I'd rather an innocent bumbling fool alien with solidly good intentions on my team opposed to a bumbling fool droid who is quite a coward, and annoyingly sassy (though he does mean well, he's a bit of a douche about it). In fact, my girlfriend watched the films with me for the first time just before TFA came out, and she couldn't stand C3-PO! She preferred the PT in the end as well.

Edited by Jammiedodger

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Surely that's to be expected when it's a galactic wide conflict and the droids are also an endless mass? The same goes for Stormtroopers - they are an endless mass, do things without question, and are just faceless bad guys (who also suck at their job, unlike Clones).

This is why I think the PT is fundamentally flawed, there are no stakes, we don't care about the people who are fighting: droids or clones. People don't care about the sides to the story either, I mean, what is my opinion on intergalactic space taxes? I guess I'm suppose to side against The Trade Federation since their leaders are Alien Asian stereotypes, and the heroes carry lightsabers? Does it even matter, since the powerful Sith guy is tricking everything to happen?

With the OT the masked Storm-troopers mean something, they're a reflections of a system of homogenization, they feel like an insect-like disease of military force filling up the galaxy. But they sound like individuals, and they speak like humans doing their job, and that is respectable and understandable.

The clones are a representation of what, cloning? That the Jedi treat everyone as clones? I don't think so, I think a bunch of people removing their duplicate masks to reveal they also have duplicate faces shows the depth of thought of the films went into to align troopers with cloning.

Also, the idea of cloning one single guy for an army is ridiculous, illogical when you want an effective variety of people, and especially when that cloned guy is the man who tried to assassinate Padme, and the Jedi still didn't question it.

The CGI was groundbreaking, and we wouldn't have the films we have today without those advances made in the PT. Besides, the amount of practical effects used in the PT is quite large too. Check out the thread on Jedi Council Forums! Pretty cool stuff.

I know this stuff already. Compositing is the key to good CGI, and adding real people into miniatures is not the same as having a practical location, especially when some of those miniatures are shiny and lack detail. If George Lucas wants to boost his other companies like ILM he should do that while making a good movie at the same time.

The Jedi don't have time to question it as much as they should, that's the whole point and why Palpatine schemed it that way.

You should watch the Clone Wars, where all these things you raised are explored extensively and are cannon - like it or not.

I don't care about canon, I care about movies. The PT has interesting stuff, but do not claim they are good film-making, because there are millions of better films that prove otherwise. A film trilogy where we already know what's going to happen in the end doesn't need the extra assurance of a guy scheming it to turn out that way, or a chosen one to make everything seem purposeful. Also, I like RotS more then RotJ because of the excessive lightheartedness of the film, and I dislike both C3PO and Jar-Jar. Also, the Death Star self-destructs from its own power and flaws when it got shot by Luke, and was a danger to the Rebellion and to life in the Galaxy. Not the most moral way of stopping a threat, but the Empire doesn't seem to take much responsibility for its own lives either.

Edited by the last chronicler

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The problem with the prequel trilogy isn't that we knew what was going to happen at the end of the PT, I've never found that a strong argument. You can know what is going to happen in a story and still adore the story, whenever you rematch a movie or reread a book that's exactly what you're doing. Abe Lincoln still gets shot in the end but Lincoln is still an amazing movie. No the reason the PT fails is that a prequel by nature relies on the strength of the way the story is told and that is the weakest aspect of the PT. The story the PT is telling is a great one, one I personally find it more interesting and compelling then the OT, however the way it's told is not the best and that's the fault of the writers and George Lucas.

The biggest qualm I have is I don't think the prequel trilogy has a good point of view character. I read or watched something a while ago that talked about how the PT should have always been from the PoV of Obi Wan and not Anakain. George Lucas set it up that way with the Phantom Menace and Qui Gon dying but then for some reason in Attack of the Clones it swaps to Anakain.

The prequels in a way are really a story about how the downfall of the Jedi Order and how they've lost their way having grown complacent in their power. When you look at the way the Jedi act in the films, they're not good guys. Yoda and Obi-Wan are good but the order itself is not. Think about the Clone Wars.

The clone troopers are the ultimate symbol of the Jedi Order's change. They're basically a slave army that the Jedi willingly accept in order to fight a war, that is sort've messed up to begin with. Here's the thing, the separatists aren't evil. They're not the Empire. They're corporations and societies that no longer wish to be apart of the corruption of the Republic. Sure the Republic has a right to fight and bring them back into their control, but what right do the jedi have to intervene? Because of politics. The Jedi Order is not a religious order but a political body that receives it's power from the Republic.

Edited by Forresto

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The another problem with the PT is the writing. The actors can actually act (Even Hayden Christensen isn't that bad either) but the writing of the script, settings, etc make the actors can't really act naturally. Anakin that are suppose to be a brave and charming hero are now a whiny idiot in the PT, There's no reason for Anakin to build C-3P0, and the dialogue sound like something out from a Twilight fanfiction. There's more problem caused by the terrible writing, but that's it for now.

If CGI existed back in the days of the OT, it would have been used extensively there too. No one complains about the uses of CGI in other modern 'masterpieces' which look worse than the Prequels, or the abundance of models and paintings used in the OT. The CGI was groundbreaking, and we wouldn't have the films we have today without those advances made in the PT. Besides, the amount of practical effects used in the PT is quite large too. Check out the thread on Jedi Council Forums! Pretty cool stuff.

The problem many people have with CGI is no matter how great the CGI looks, it's still fake. The actors can't really interact with the things in the set like kicking a rock or touching a pillar because those thing aren't really there althrough how realistic the CGI is. Sure some practical effect isn't really that good, but at least the actors can interact with the scene to make their acting more natural because those things are actually there.

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This is why I think the PT is fundamentally flawed, there are no stakes, we don't care about the people who are fighting: droids or clones. People don't care about the sides to the story either, I mean, what is my opinion on intergalactic space taxes? I guess I'm suppose to side against The Trade Federation since their leaders are Alien Asian stereotypes, and the heroes carry lightsabers? Does it even matter, since the powerful Sith guy is tricking everything to happen?

Sure, the trading stuff wasn't for you, but I don't think that doesn't make it ridiculous for those aspects to be liked by many others?

The reason to dislike the Federation is because they are using taxes and a very visible blockade to subjugate an entire populace, and they are very quickly established as being supported by the Sith (Sidious/Emperor). Yeah the accents should have been not so obviously stereotyped, but at the end of the day the Imperial Officers were very English sounding but us Brits don't complain about being the bad guys! :laugh:

Honestly I never really took them as sides we needed to be fully invested in until the Clone Wars series came out, initially to me The Clone Wars was the horrible (though visually stunning) situation the Jedi found themselves in, the instrument to their downfall and the rise of the Sith. It was always going to end badly, but why not explore it further and know how it went so wrong? The same goes for the ST - something else will always go tits-up, but why explore that? The reason is they both expand on the characters established in the OT, and it doesn't matter if it's not done the way some people expected - it's George Lucas' story and we are lucky we have gotten what we have and most people enjoy them for what they are.

With the OT the masked Storm-troopers mean something, they're a reflections of a system of homogenization, they feel like an insect-like disease of military force filling up the galaxy. But they sound like individuals, and they speak like humans doing their job, and that is respectable and understandable.

The clones are a representation of what, cloning? That the Jedi treat everyone as clones? I don't think so, I think a bunch of people removing their duplicate masks to reveal they also have duplicate faces shows the depth of thought of the films went into to align troopers with cloning.

Also, the idea of cloning one single guy for an army is ridiculous, illogical when you want an effective variety of people, and especially when that cloned guy is the man who tried to assassinate Padme, and the Jedi still didn't question it.

And the Clones are a representation of the galactic situation - shiny, modern, seemingly honourable, but deeply corrupt and governed by darker powers unbeknownst to the majority (and themselves). Clones also speak like individuals, albeit the same person. They are also respectable and understandable, loyal to their fellow troopers (you didn't see that with Stormies), and obey orders which they are taught (or as we learn later, modified) to believe for the good of the Republic. They are born to be soldiers, most Stormtroopers were not.

RE them being the same masks/face... I'm pretty sure that sort of idea was established in ANH when Obi Wan talks about the Republic and says 'Clone Wars'. :grin: You yourself has raised the moral dilemma, and we are having the discussion intended right now - are they individuals with souls, or not at all? I would say not the latter. The fact they name themselves and change their armour makes them more individual in a way than the Stormtroopers. Though, that was the point, to show how Palpatine unified and at the same time took individuality away (from not just the 'servants', but the galaxy).

I know this stuff already. Compositing is the key to good CGI, and adding real people into miniatures is not the same as having a practical location, especially when some of those miniatures are shiny and lack detail. If George Lucas wants to boost his other companies like ILM he should do that while making a good movie at the same time.

Ouch :laugh: I personally rather fabricated but realistic and visually new/alien sets over blatant puppets and Earthly 'practical' locations. There aren't many practical locations you could use for the environments in the PT that are not Earth like ones. I dunno, I've seen enough to know how much they used and that IMO it was good stuff, fair enough if they were not as good as you would have liked, though I strongly disagree from the many images and clips I have seen. I think if Lucas and the marketing team hadn't just focussed so much on pushing the CG and had also promoted all the practical effects they used as well, this go-to antiPT argument probably wouldn't come up so often.

I don't care about canon, I care about movies. The PT has interesting stuff, but do not claim they are good film-making, because there are millions of better films that prove otherwise. A film trilogy where we already know what's going to happen in the end doesn't need the extra assurance of a guy scheming it to turn out that way, or a chosen one to make everything seem purposeful. Also, I like RotS more then RotJ because of the excessive lightheartedness of the film, and I dislike both C3PO and Jar-Jar. Also, the Death Star self-destructs from its own power and flaws when it got shot by Luke, and was a danger to the Rebellion and to life in the Galaxy. Not the most moral way of stopping a threat, but the Empire doesn't seem to take much responsibility for its own lives either.

Unfortunately for a lot of your points, canon does matter. And yes I will 'claim' that. They are good films. They are not bad movies. That is my opinion. If you went by the ratings counted by people who care enough to vote (lets face it, that isn't that may considering how many have seen the movies), they are at the least average. I remember seeing a few articles on how the PT were rated about equal to how the OT was rated when that came out, how accurate that was I don't know but it didn't surprise me - the OT has many flaws too and they are all very different to the norm films.

?! I don't see how there is anything wrong with Palpatine's scheming. He did that in the OT the whole time as well, though we didn't see it. The disbanding of the Senate, managing to secretly build a second Death Star, then hiding the fact that it was operational etc etc. If anything it showed to me how much of a badass and formidable opponent he is. The fact he did it so efficiently showed how much the Jedi were losing their path in more ways than one. That leads into the prophecy of the Chosen One - to anyone outside, it obviously means the Jedi will be wiped out to match with the Sith's number of two, but the Jedi are so assured of themselves they can't see that.

Erm, I don't think that was what most people took from the films, and I never took it that way. Luke shoots two missiles into a shaft that leads the reactor, which makes it blow up. That's like saying if I shot a gas tank with a gun, I'm not responsible even though I made two attempts to aim and destroy it. And sure, it was for the greater good, but at what costs? Sure, the principles of the DS was very very bad, and it was run and occupied by many bad guys, and it was going to destroy the planet the Rebels are based on, but that's still a truly massive loss of life no matter if they are guilty, ignorant, or innocent. I dunno, they really do skip over that and Leia's reaction to Alderaan's destruction.

@Armstong Yong - Yeah I understand that, but just because the puppets and animatronics/models used in the OT are real doesn't exactly make them realistic, to me anyway. Sure, they're 'real', but not as realistic and as open to the expansion CGI provides. It's a silly and overused argument, as the same can be said for so many movies. The fact the actors were not directed as well as they should have been is not the fault of the greenscreen and CGI, it's the unfortunate coincidence and the fault of Lucas and mainly his 'yes-men'. In the situations in the PT where the actors are in 'real' places, is the acting really any better for those who are bothered by it and would use that argument? E.g. Tatooine, Naboo lakes etc. Things change, and the change in Star Wars helped all movies in general.

@Forresto - Yeah it could have focussed more on Obi Wan, but then it wouldn't have shown Anakin's personal battles he fought and lost on his fall to the dark side. I could really see people complaining about that, if it had focused more on Kenobi. It is the Skywalker story, after all.

And yeah, the Jedi really were going down the wrong path. Like Yoda says in Rebels, 'In our arrogance, joined the conflict swiftly, we did. Anger, and hate. Consumed by the Dark Side, the Jedi were.', and that even he did not see how they were wrong.

Some good posts on Anakin's fall I've seen, and great reads:

http://thepsychologyofdarthvader.tumblr.com/post/58584132014/the-psychology-of-darth-vader-entry-two-august

http://daretotouchthebutt.blogspot.com/2014/08/anakin-skywalker-slavethe-victim-killer.html

Edited by Jammiedodger

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The problem with the prequel trilogy isn't that we knew what was going to happen at the end of the PT, I've never found that a strong argument. Because of politics.

The Jedi Order is not a religious order but a political body that receives it's power from the Republic.

The concern isn't the inherent pre-knowledge, its more like the choices the PT took removed any sense of risk or alternative within the narrative itself by constructing the narrative so specifically.

I think the problem with the Jedi as a political order or one that has changed or sacrificed its morals is that in the OT the Force is the heart of the galaxies and the Rebellions moral guidelines, and for the Jedi to be ignorant or political really goes against their identity and following of the Force, which really isn't very powerful in the narrative because there is little contrast between what the Jedi become and what they were, and why they would make that change now when they've been around for a thousand generations. It really feels like the complacency in the narrative was an excuse rather than deliberate commentary, especially when the Jedi are more evil when the aren't complacent and instead leading giant armies. Plus, the idea that all of Star Wars, The Jedi's fall, The Emperor's fall, relies on their complacency is kind of silly and boring, and really is not deep commentary. What if neither side was complacent, who would win, what would it take?

they are at the least average. I remember seeing a few articles on how the PT were rated about equal to how the OT was rated when that came out, how accurate that was I don't know but it didn't surprise me - the OT has many flaws too and they are all very different to the norm films.

Yes, people and critics were more disappointed with Empire back then than critics for TFA now, because at the time Empire felt like the nicer looking remake of ANH without the same heart. And they're not wrong in the sense that Empire is very much the middle act of ANH with some change of appearance, still with training and rescues and hallway chases, but it's a great film. But When you hear about how INSANELY popular and loved ANH was at the time then reaction to Empire is understandable, because people appreciated a down-to-Earth sci-fi in a world that showed its age and contrasted that social decay with a timeless magical Force. They loved that it unapologetically mish-mashed children's stories and classic cinema, and critics treated it as a love letter to Kurasawa, Westerns, and pulp-Scifi, it was the sort of post-modern escapist film-making that no one had really done before. The movie was in theaters for more than a YEAR, and later critics came in with higher expectations of 'a great piece of art,' especially those who wanted to dismiss a fantasy film that was so popular for so long. Really, the reactions and reviews for ANH were fantastic from the start. Look up Variety's original review or Andrew Gordons critical article 'Star Wars: A Myth for our Time.' It really demonstrates how effective and thoughtful its Hero's Journey narrative is.

Edited by the last chronicler

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Yes, people and critics were more disappointed with Empire back then than critics for TFA now, because at the time Empire felt like the nicer looking remake of ANH without the same heart. And they're not wrong in the sense that Empire is very much the middle act of ANH with some change of appearance, still with training and rescues and hallway chases, but it's a great film. But When you hear about how INSANELY popular and loved ANH was at the time then reaction to Empire is understandable, because people appreciated a down-to-Earth sci-fi in a world that showed its age and contrasted that social decay with a timeless magical Force. They loved that it unapologetically mish-mashed children's stories and classic cinema, and critics treated it as a love letter to Kurasawa, Westerns, and pulp-Scifi, it was the sort of post-modern escapist film-making that no one had really done before. The movie was in theaters for more than a YEAR, and later critics came in with higher expectations of 'a great piece of art,' especially those who wanted to dismiss a fantasy film that was so popular for so long. Really, the reactions and reviews for ANH were fantastic from the start. Look up Variety's original review or Andrew Gordons critical article 'Star Wars: A Myth for our Time.' It really demonstrates how effective and thoughtful its Hero's Journey narrative is.

In a way I wish I could have been there to see when it all started, because the many feats and the hype the original films achieved is astounding. Not sure how it was in the UK though, but I'm sure it was crazy in the US.

I'm very happy to have grown up with the Prequels though; the opening scene to RotS will always make me tear-up! The PT was insanely popular and hyped with my generation too, I think it was easy for the older fans and criticisers to not see that, which is a shame. I'm glad so many people love TFA, even though I am not as fond of it as I would like to be. But hey, at least all the movies have greatly touched each generation, and while there are arguments, there is nothing that everyone whole heartedly agrees is awful!

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As someone who grew up with the prequels I absolutely love them, but I also realize they aren't perfect. Theres a lot of issues to them but I think the Phantom Menace especially doesn't deserve the flak it gets. Jar Jar is awful but the rest isn't really that bad. I have so many happy positive memories attached to seeing the PT in the theaters as a kid, I'm very forgiving of their flaws.

Revenge of the Sith is a much better movie then Return of the Jedi, i'm sorry I said it. Return of the Jedi arguably should be the strongest movie of the franchise but it screwed up by having teddy bears wipe out the Empire's elite soldiers and by wrapping up the battle the way it did. The super star destroyer blowing up was ridiculous. How does a star fighter blow up the shield generator ball, the most crucial part of what the shield would be protecting? The most irritating part is the amazing epic lightsaber fight and space battle kept getting interrupted for scenes of logs crushing AT-ST's that somehow managed to walk in the right spot, or stormtroopers being hit with rocks. I can bear through the Jar Jar moments because his stupidity doesn't harm my view of the most iconic bad guys as the ewoks do.

That being said I don't hate any of the SW movies, I just think RotJ is at the bottom of my preferred ones. If Return of the Jedi is your favorite then that is awesome, it's just cool we all share a love of SW here even if it's in different parts of the franchise. I think that's what we need to remember, love or hate any of the films at least we're all fans of the same universe which is really cool!

Edited by Forresto

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Jar Jar is awful but the rest isn't really that bad.

I actually didn't mind Jar Jar upon watching the films.

I felt he was a good and appropriate foil character to Young Anakin: A little kid wise beyond his years and an older alien with the mind of a toddler. It worked for me. Not everyone in the entire galaxy is going to be an epic hero.

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I was a kid BIONICLE was my 'PT, ' so I took the long way around to appreciating Star Wars, and was always more interested in the realistic, mystical and philosophical world-building of it all.

I agree with Forresto, Revenge of the Sith is a better movie then Return of the Jedi. But I have an appreciation for the intensity of that last light-saber battle between Luke and Vader, even if the Emperor externalizes evil too conveniently.

Which reminds me, reposting this because it got lost in the previous discussion:

TFA feels like the necessary counterpoint to the advantage Luke had in knowing that the light side still survived in in his father--TFA shows that the dark side of the Force 'will be with you always' too: a constant battle within. What does Luke loose with the knowledge of his father? That he must be vigilant against evil, that anyone can turn, and that nothing is ideal.

I also think people are dismissing hints that George Lucas's thematic intent for the third trilogy will be present in the ST. I found these three quotes when looking up Star Wars history for a project:

George Lucas thought the Sequel trilogy would be about "the necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong".--Gary Kurtz, 1990's I think.

From The Force Awakens Novelization:

"First comes the day

Then comes the Night.

After the darkness

Shines through the light.

The difference, they Say,

Is only made right

By resolving the gray

Through refined Jedi

Sight.

~Journal of the Whills 7:477

"If the first trilogy is social and political and talks about how society evolves, Star Wars is more about personal growth and self realization, and the third deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."--George Lucas, 1980's.

TFA establishes this premise perfectly for Ep VIII, we've got Kylo Ren morally divided, a Republic in chaos without a government, and a Luke Skywalker who will need to make tough choices, with the weight of the good and evil of the Skywalker line--like his lightsaber--in his hands. We even have the First Jedi Temple, a perfect location to discuss "Jedi Knighthood," and pass on Star Wars to the next generation.

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Interesting viewpoints from all. I don't know if I've shared this here before, but Episode II is one of my favourites for the intrigue and discovery in the Obi Wan plots, and the new worlds. I prefer detective stories over action films. A lot of people really hate Episode II for the negative aspects, most of the time that is any scene with Anakin & Padme. So what I tend to do is press the skip/next button (if watching with a medium that has chapters) as soon as those 2 appear together. It turns the movie from a 6 average to an 8 or 9. I recommend trying this. Sadly you can't skip all of the ewok garbage or whiny Luke, I don't have a solution for improving those movies.

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There are a MILLION things wrong with the PT, literally, and a million people have put it in words better than I could.. But even if you put aside the fact that the story in general is a mess that makes absolutely no sense, the characters are all over the place, the dialogue is attrocious, the acting is abysmal, it is still not fun to watch as a visual spectacle. The fact that George Lucas chose to film a series like the PT where 80% of the screen at any given scene is CGI with a 1080p digital camera makes it unbearable to watch for me. I want to gouge my eyes out with a blunt spoon.

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At the very least, they learned from the overuse of CGI and underuse of practical sets and models when making the new movies, from TFA onwards.

I expect Rogue One to have practical sets as well, which I see as more enjoyable and will also make it more similar to the OT.

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There are a MILLION things wrong with the PT, literally, and a million people have put it in words better than I could.. But even if you put aside the fact that the story in general is a mess that makes absolutely no sense, the characters are all over the place, the dialogue is attrocious, the acting is abysmal, it is still not fun to watch as a visual spectacle. The fact that George Lucas chose to film a series like the PT where 80% of the screen at any given scene is CGI with a 1080p digital camera makes it unbearable to watch for me. I want to gouge my eyes out with a blunt spoon.

This has to be one of the best pieces of comedy I've read, so many good jokes!

:hmpf: Seriously though, great job to once again derail the thread into bashing, after multitudes of the previously valid points (for and against all SW) that others have made coherently and maturely, without ridiculously exaggerated (and clearly misguided) accusations - not arguments. It would help a bit adding an 'I think' or 'IMO' here and there. Honestly, it doesn't even matter to me that it's the PT you're bashing, it could be the OT/ST/EU for all I care. IMO the sort of reply you have posted is what drives this fan base to be one of the most disliked. It comes across all kinds of stupid and bait-ish, and would probably get you timed-out/banned on quite a few SW-only forums... if anyone paid any attention to such a post - plus it really ticks me off. :tongue: Meh, your loss I suppose. Not going any further with this on here anyway, I feel like I've wasted my time responding already.

Anyway, I saw a couple of hilarious Star Wars memes that came up the other day that I'd never seen before. Really made me chuckle:

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Also, anyone seen this old video game concept art for Kenobi if he fell to the dark side? Wish they had made an else-world sort of game which involved that. So I present a what-if scenario to discuss: if Obi Wan and Yoda (or just Yoda) had gone to Anakin first, could they have talked him down? And if Yoda had let Obi Wan fight Sidious, would Kenobi be turned instead? Probably not, but fun to think about or speculate on :grin: Honestly, while Anakin had fallen so deep into the dark side at that point, I could see Yoda+Kenobi+Padme combined as being able to at least reason with him (though he wouldn't be redeemed, he would not stay a Sith).

I think the crucial moment is in Palpatine's office however, and if Anakin had instead sided with Mace. I would guess at that point Sidious would either retreat or kick their butts.

As a side note, I had another thought about the emphasis on Anakin being the Chosen One in the films. I think that is really one of the main reasons he acts the way he does. He is told from the start he will change the ENTIRE galaxy for the better, which is obviously an enormous responsibility and has many effects of the psyche. I don't blame him for getting mad at his mentors holding him back, after being told he will fulfil such a prophecy, and therefore loosing control in the wrong manner as opposed to being taught how to channel it. In a way I think the Council didn't really know how to handle him! :sceptic:

Edited by Jammiedodger

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I stand in the middle ground for the PT. Do I think it is the weakest group of Star Wars theatrical films we have? Yes. Do I think it is horrid rotten trash worth burning? No. I would argue that Revenge of the Sith stands really well on its own and is as strong as many of the OT films. Sure it ain't no Empire Strikes Back; but Revenge had some great moments and some nice drama. The fact that the awkward flirting between Anakin and Padme from AoTC had turned into the banter of a married couple in ROTS also made a lot more sense and helped the film.

Even the two weaker films in the PT AoTC and PM; had their moments. The final battle of PM is SO COOL. No arguing the Maul vs. Ginn/Kenobi is so well done, and the other battle scenes are cool to. AoTC had some cool set pieces to (and as any Mythbuster's fans know thanks to Adam's old ILM photos, AoTC did use traditional models and matte paintings for Kamino, which is really really cool).

Arguably the weakest link in the PT is the acting; and I honestly don't believe that is the actors fault. Remember that Natalie Portman for example has an OSCAR for BEST ACTRESS that she got after the PT for a later film role. Ewan McGregor has also shown he can do some good acting. I think the fact is George Lucas's weakness was directing actors and writing dialogue. He had a talent for visionary stories and cool settings which SHINES in the PT in my opinion, but he never could direct actors to behave like real characters. I think this is apparent even in the OT; the acting in A New Hope is actually very poor (Hammil's Luke going form obnoxious to likable every 5 minutes, Carrie's fake British accent switching to American accents all the time...). The strongest film in the OT, Empire has the best acting though; and it is noteworthy they are all the same actors from the previous film. The main difference with Empire was that George was working on setting and overall plot, while the director Kasdan made the actors perform well. The chemistry between Han and Leia, the "I know" line, even the eccentric talking Jedi muppet all worked very well with Kasdan's directing.

So yeah I just don't think George was a very good director of actors. Fortunately the PT does have a few characters who shine through his bad directing (McDirmids's Palpatine comes to mind). However the PT shines as a testament to George's visionary and imaginative ideas; from the beautiful worlds visited to the overall mythic plot.

Also on note about the PT's CGI... Yeah it was way overdone, but ILM did push the boundaries of CGI at the time with those films. I'm glad that The Force Awakens had a more balanced approach to effects; everything was a practical effect when possible, but then became a CGI effect when needed. That was a great approach to it, and combined the best of the PT and the OT together.

Edited by xboxtravis7992

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(....Carrie's fake British accent switching to American accents all the time...).

I assumed that was a fake accent she put on in the presence of Vader/Tarkin. Everyone in the Empire is British so it'd kind of be a giveaway if she spoke American like the rest of the Rebels. :tongue:

I agree with most of your opinions regarding the PT. It's hard to judge the acting when the lines are just so stilted.

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I have mixed feeling with the PT movies. While the soundtrack and world introduction is good, there's still more things wrong with the prequel movies. Another weak link of the PT is the villains. A good movie , novel and TV show (Not all of them) need a good villain, and the PT falls flat on that.

Darth Maul looks menacing and cool, but he barely do anything in TPM and he feels more like a plot device for a lightsaber duel than a real character for me. We didn't really know who he are, why he hates the Jedi and why he did everything that he is doing in the movie.

And Darth Maul's death in the final kills any potential to develop the character. (Not counting the TCW TV show)

Count Dooku is slightly better since we know that he is a former Jedi and it opens a chance for some interesting scene and conflict. But the poor writing on the script and the weak plot makes him looks like another random bad guy and Christopher Lee's excellent acting is totally wasted. There's no reason to mention Grievous, Jango Fett and Zam Wesell, since they barely impacts the plot.

Darth Sidious/Palpatine is perhaps the only interesting villain in the PT, but he still lacks real depth since we didn't really know why he want to destroy the Jedi and wants more political power.

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That's because Palpatine is the real villain of the entire PT. Everyone else is a pawn, a minion, a tool. His motivation is unlimited powwwwweeeeeerrrrrr!

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General Grievous had an extraordinary story line and back story in the EU until the Clone Wars (which otherwise is a pretty great show) completely destroyed him as a character. Still a little bitter over that :hmpf_bad: Count Dooku had Christopher Lee which was awesome and the whole backstory of being a fallen Jedi and formerly Yoda's apprentice was cool, but again they never full explore it.

Actually I think the Darth Vader comic series that is now canon finally revealed Palpatine's underlying motivations. He wants immortality. He wants to do what Darth Plageius did but on himself.

Edited by Forresto

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Different to what everyone has been talking about but:

List the Star Wars films etc: Best to worst! Personally, mine goes like:

Best: Star Wars (A New Hope)

The Empire Strikes Back

The Return Of The Jedi

The Force Awakens

Star Wars: Rebels

Revenge Of The Sith

Star Wars: The Clone Wars

The Star Wars Holiday Special

Attack Of The Clones

Worst:The Phantom Menace

Also, What does everyone think of the new Rogue One: A Star Wars Story trailer?

Columbus

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Prequels had some really bad characterization, and I'll suggest ways to improve them:

Qui-Gon: should not exist, be replaced with Obi-Wan so Obi-Wan is a more centralized character in TPM

Jar-Jar: less cartoony-looking species, not involved in poop and fart jokes, present only in TPM to help fight for his planet despite being an outcast of his people

R2-D2, C3PO, Chewbacca: should not be in prequels, unnecessary cameos. (Mostly 3PO)

Young Anakin: should be 16-17, lives on a farm with his brother Owen, good pilot that competes in dangerous illegal races that pay high rewards.

Watto: unnecessary, as Anakin's duty to his brother and his farm keeps him on Tatooine

Padme: no handmaiden disguise, as this was a weak reveal. Should just be a 20 y/old queen that is willing to pick up a gun to defend her people. Would be more interesting also if she was unfairly "racist" against the Gungans, but Jar-Jar's bravery convinces her to turn around.

Darth Maul: visibly works with the Trade Federation, hunts the heros throughout, cold-blooded killer. Not seen as bowing down to a hologram. At end, threatens Obi-wan that there are more powerful Sith to fear before his body is mangled. Comes back in ROTS... As General Maul the Greived.

What do you all think of these suggestions? I think they would help the characters, and the plot to some degree. For now I have only said my suggestions for TPM. I would appreciate constructive feedback.

Edited by Jbricks

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I think Padmé treating the Gungans as equals was the right thing to do and helped establish her as a good person. Otherwise I think your suggestions are good.

I especially agree that Anakin should have been older from the start, as the PT made him 46 when he died, far from the old man I've got the impression that he was supposed to be.

I also think Obi-Wan should have been older than the 57 years of age he was when he died.

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Although it had its flaws, I really like the PT for the most part... I'd say AotC and RotS are much better than TPM, both visually and in terms of story.

I think the ending of TPM was a bit messy. The lightsaber fight, fight at Theed Palace and Space Battle were fine but the inclusion of the Gungun's vs Droids battle wasn't great. I think Lucas was too infantilized in CGI and kind of forgot about what made a good battle. Even when you compare it too the arena battle in episode 2, sure there was CGI, but there were a good number of practical effects too. The Gungun battle was just CGI on CGI on CGI.

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