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1 hour ago, samurai-turtle said:

Just make them Bonsai Trees. That will show us it is completely different. :grin: 

Just tall enough to conceal the dread porg army? that is brilliant sir, absolutely brilliant

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Watching the clone wars, it's ok, but they nerfed General Grievous( my favorite Star Wars character) so bad, It's hard to watch anytime he's on screen, he went from being a general, who was turned into a cyborg, designed to hunt and kill Jedi, who killed many Jedi, into a joke that can't even beat gungan's.  As far as the Last Jedi goes, It's the worst Star Wars, with a high critic score( people paid by Disney) and a 49% rating from regular viewers,  with more plot holes, inconsistency and bad jokes than ever.

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Not going to get into yet anothe argument on The Last Jedi in this thread but  we agree on one thing, Filoni nerfed the heck out of Grievous in the 2008 onwards series.

Do yourself a favor and watch the 2003 series. Beautiful animation, two hours in all, far better depiction of the Clone Wars and Grievous.

It seriously drives me insane what they did to that character.

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31 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Filoni nerfed the heck out of Grievous in the 2008 onwards series.

Do yourself a favor and watch the 2003 series. Beautiful animation, two hours in all, far better depiction of the Clone Wars and Grievous.

Well the Clone Wars show was all driven by Lucas even if Filoni was technically the one overseeing it, so I wouldn't really say it was Filoni needing him. In fact Grevious' second ever appearance in TV/Film media is Episode III, where he has already become a bit of a buffooning, barely intimidating, comic relief character against what he was in the 2003 show. It's clear that's what Lucas himself decided he should be, for whatever reason. Yes they explained the reason for his cough in the series, but a Droid general with a hunchback and a cough? Come on...

From first seeing the Clone Wars kickoff "movie" in theatres, I've always felt that absolutely everything in the show in regards to characterisation was based on the opening sequence of Episode III. Obi-Wan and Anakin are quippy and happy, droids are now stupid and talk a lot, etc. The Battle Droids might have already said Roger Roger in a dumb voice since Episode I, but in I and II they were still intimidating weapon machines. Even though Lucas was the brains behind Clone Wars, I felt he was missing the point because even within that opening sequence of Episode III you don't get the sense that Obi and Anakin are ALWAYS like that. People have moods, and in those moments they felt a bit confident and had good rapport, but you can tell that they're still serious people who have other emotions and don't always get on so well.

Later seasons of the Clone Wars rectified the problems a bit and the show got more serious and ended up adding a lot to the characters, but it got off to a rough start for sure with only a few good episodes here and there.

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I've seen it, It's great and it makes sense why Grievous was made General of the Separatist Army, in 2008 The Clone Wars, why is he even a cyborg, in 2003 Clone Wars he's turned into a cyborg by Palpatine to hunt and kill Jedi, and lead the Separatist Army.

 

P.S. Also, Revenge of the Sith is the first time Grievous meets Anakin and Obi wan, based on the dialogue at the beginning of the movie and follows more with 03 time line Clone Wars.

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17 minutes ago, Dr.Cogg said:

P.S. Also, Revenge of the Sith is the first time Grievous meets Anakin and Obi wan, based on the dialogue at the beginning of the movie and follows more with 03 time line Clone Wars.

I remember an interview with Filoni at one stage where he says that, given that dialogue, they were careful to make sure that Anakin and Grevious never meet in the CG Clone Wars, but there's no explicit dialogue to say that Obi-Wan and Grevious have never met. I thought it was a bit of a stretch.

The frequency with which Obi-Wan and Anakin meet Dooku in the show also undercuts their matchup with him at the beginning of Episode III where it really seems like they haven't met since Episode II.

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One of the other proofs is when Obi wan fights Grievous in RotS, when he explains to Obi wan, he has been trained in the Jedi arts by Count Dooku, but in The Clone Wars, He's fought Obi wan several times, so it wouldn't make sense for him to say that line.

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On 8/3/2018 at 2:41 PM, Space Police XVIII said:

Maybe some guy licking a tree to show it's not on Endor?

:roflmao:

6 hours ago, Dr.Cogg said:

Watching the clone wars, it's ok, but they nerfed General Grievous( my favorite Star Wars character) so bad, It's hard to watch anytime he's on screen, he went from being a general, who was turned into a cyborg, designed to hunt and kill Jedi, who killed many Jedi, into a joke that can't even beat gungan's.  As far as the Last Jedi goes, It's the worst Star Wars, with a high critic score( people paid by Disney) and a 49% rating from regular viewers,  with more plot holes, inconsistency and bad jokes than ever.

It's true what you said. All of it. Grievous was one of the biggest disappointments in that show. The 2003 miniseries was superior to the 2008 series in many aspects, and the characterization of Grievous is definitely one of them. He became one of my favorite characters after Tartakovski's excellent take on him, and Filoni almost made me hate him.

4 hours ago, Clone OPatra said:

Well the Clone Wars show was all driven by Lucas even if Filoni was technically the one overseeing it, so I wouldn't really say it was Filoni needing him. In fact Grevious' second ever appearance in TV/Film media is Episode III, where he has already become a bit of a buffooning, barely intimidating, comic relief character against what he was in the 2003 show. It's clear that's what Lucas himself decided he should be, for whatever reason. Yes they explained the reason for his cough in the series, but a Droid general with a hunchback and a cough? Come on...

From first seeing the Clone Wars kickoff "movie" in theatres, I've always felt that absolutely everything in the show in regards to characterisation was based on the opening sequence of Episode III. Obi-Wan and Anakin are quippy and happy, droids are now stupid and talk a lot, etc. The Battle Droids might have already said Roger Roger in a dumb voice since Episode I, but in I and II they were still intimidating weapon machines. Even though Lucas was the brains behind Clone Wars, I felt he was missing the point because even within that opening sequence of Episode III you don't get the sense that Obi and Anakin are ALWAYS like that. People have moods, and in those moments they felt a bit confident and had good rapport, but you can tell that they're still serious people who have other emotions and don't always get on so well.

Later seasons of the Clone Wars rectified the problems a bit and the show got more serious and ended up adding a lot to the characters, but it got off to a rough start for sure with only a few good episodes here and there.

It certainly seems that way, although I felt that he was still fairly intimidating in Ep.III despite the cough and stuff, not nearly as much of a joke as he was in the following cartoon.

As for the more lighthearted tone of the show, I always thought that that's just because it was aimed more at children, even more so than the movies.

4 hours ago, Dr.Cogg said:

I've seen it, It's great and it makes sense why Grievous was made General of the Separatist Army, in 2008 The Clone Wars, why is he even a cyborg, in 2003 Clone Wars he's turned into a cyborg by Palpatine to hunt and kill Jedi, and lead the Separatist Army.

Actually, he never had a backstory in the 2003 show. That was just his backstory in one of the EU books which was never really canon, and it was Dooku who transformed him, not Palpatine, but I agree, that was a much better origin story for him and I wish they would have adopted it for the 2008 series, just like they adopted Maul's robot legs from the same book. According to Filoni in this video, Lucas' idea of Grievous' backstory is that he really wanted to be a Jedi and made those cybernetic enhancements himself in order to match the abilities of the Jedi which is kind of stupid if you ask me and doesn't really give him anything to be "grievous" about. But fortunately they kept his origin kinda vague in the show, so it can be whatever you want it to be. In my head-canon, he still has his EU backstory, and him claiming that he chose those "improvements" is just him being too proud to admit that he submitted to Dooku's will. That gives him a tragic backstory to match his name and makes him more of a three-dimensional character.

All that said, I do look forward to The Clone Wars returning, although I'm not sure I'll be getting Disney's streaming service. They'll have to offer a lot more new stuff than one season of a decade-old show to make it worth the money.

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He changed his name to Grievous after the loss of his partner and before 08 The Clone War, his story was more interesting and didn't paint him as a coward at all, he was a general on his home planet, who fought and drove an enemy race of his planet, the enemies asked for help from the Jedi and drove Grievous's race off the planet (thus his hatred for the jedi), the Separatist asked him to be their general he said yes, but he hated droids, Count Dooku, the techno union and Palpatine wanted More control over him, so they arranged a shuttle accident, which nearly killed him, they gave him a new body for hunting and killing Jedi, put implants in his brain to control him and increase his hatred for the Jedi and that is 03 Grievous.

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On August 11, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Dr.Cogg said:

 As far as the Last Jedi goes, It's the worst Star Wars, with a high critic score( people paid by Disney) and a 49% rating from regular viewers,  with more plot holes, inconsistency and bad jokes than ever.

Man I wish I knew everyone with a different opinion than me was paid off. Takes a lot of guts to say your opinion is right because everyone else is part of a vast conspiracy and you are the only one with free thought. Of course, you have evidence that 200+ critics were paid off with papertrails from Disney and leaks from those critics who refused the bribe? Or maybe you know because Disney also paid off critics for Solo even though it still only got 70% approval, Wrinkle in Time, as well as Infinity War, Thor Ragnorok, and Guardians? They've got a whole departement for it for they need the infrastructure, because no review is real. Nothing is real. Luckily we have those 100,000 audience reviews from real and true fans from RT that--unlike the millions of people who paid to watch the film--show the truth that with 49% of them giving it a fresh tomato (above 6/10) and 51% saying it is rotten (reviews below 6/10) TLJ still ends up approximately an average 6/10 essentially, the same as the prequels despite the heroic efforts of these true fans to try to make it a 1/10. Of course, pay no attention to 700,000 imdb reviews that situate TLJ as a 7.3/10, comparable to Solo's imdb 7.1/10, because spammers on rotten tomatoes could never use an unregulated uncontrolled polling system to lower an avg TLJ review statistic by 10%...

...or maybe Star Wars as a fantasy series has always been full of plotholes (which TLJ really does not really have, feel free to suggest some for me to disprove) and goofy jokes with various degrees of audience response (most of TLJ's are fantastically timed and well thought out). And maybe people of various ages like SW and TLJ because of that. Again, its not like TLJ has entire scenes that are laughed at even though they are not jokes, like scenes in the prequels. And the deaths, even Snoke's surprising mid-trilogy demise, have emotional weight and narrative purpose for the characters, unlike deaths of those like Grievous who are just special effect showpieces.

Edited by the last chronicler

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56 minutes ago, the last chronicler said:

Luckily we have those 100,000 audience reviews from real and true fans from RT that--unlike the millions of people who paid to watch the film--show the truth that with 49% of them giving it a fresh tomato (above 6/10) and 51% saying it is rotten (reviews below 6/10) TLJ still ends up approximately an average 6/10 essentially, the same as the prequels

Indeed.

56 minutes ago, the last chronicler said:

Star Wars as a fantasy series has always been full of plotholes (which TLJ really does not really have, feel free to suggest some for me to disprove) and goofy jokes with various degrees of audience response (most of TLJ's are fantastically timed and well thought out).

Better joke than any in TLJ right here.

56 minutes ago, the last chronicler said:

TLJ has entire scenes that are laughed at even though they are not jokes, like scenes in the prequels.

Yes, it does.  BB-8 piloting the AT-ST is one of them.

59 minutes ago, the last chronicler said:

And the deaths, even Snoke's surprising mid-trilogy demise, have emotional weight and narrative purpose for the characters

I disagree completely.  Snoke's death has no meaning, we don't know anything about him.  Luke's death was stupid.

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38 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Indeed.

Better joke than any in TLJ right here.

Yes, it does.  BB-8 piloting the AT-ST is one of them.

I disagree completely.  Snoke's death has no meaning, we don't know anything about him.  Luke's death was stupid.

x105Black, taking everything I say and just saying 'Nope' is not critical thinking, it just shows you are lazy, reactionary, and lack the skills to validate your own opinion. You bring nothing to the table in this discussion. Selectively (mis)quoting my sarcasm (as well as taking my "true fans"/'true scotsman fallacy' statement to heart also showing the massiveness of your ego) further delegitimizes your method of discussion, and arguing BB-8 piloting a AT-ST was not as a purposeful joke when the OT did the exact same thing for laughs with Chewie and Ewoks shows your neccesity to distort reality to fit your narrative. That scene is completely different than the geniune bad written made fun of in scenes like Anakin talking about hating sand or Palpatine turning into a prune in RoTS.  The jokes that are laughed at in TLJ (I was in the theatre) were actual jokes, and you can't argue against people's gut reaction to comedy and the critical love of TLJ for it dark boldness and humour.

As well, without Snoke's death Kylo's arc would be incomplete, and we would not be able believe he was now in full control, but also feeling the complete loss of that control to his past, and willing to do everything to destroy Luke as representative of that past: thereby you could not have their showdown without dramatic weight and the fear Luke could be destroyed.

Edited by the last chronicler

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1 hour ago, the last chronicler said:

Stuff was said.

Easy does it.  You're more than welcome to offer your opinion, ALL OF YOU, but realize others have the ability to offer theirs as well.  Be courteous and respectful.  If this gets bad, which I feel it's about to do, I'll deal with it as needs be.

Thanks!

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The Last Chronicler, I take it you love TLJ, which is your opinion, but not mine, to me there was no point to the film. You should watch Maulers TLJ review on youtube, where he deconstructs the whole thing.

Edited by Dr.Cogg

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I may have went to far. I appreciate when others express there opinion when it is not done in a manipulative and reductionist way, because it is really a microcosm of the cherrypicking of data that has plagued the discourse of TLJ, using any ambiguity critically as validation of negative responses, where there are so many qualifiers to RT audience scores that have little to do with regular viewers or the theatrical experience, and websites like imdb that are closer to the traditional online review discourse, and exit polls from the film tell a different broader story. If people are just cherrypicking and quoting to validate some absolute 'true opinion' (for which there is not in art) on a forum, than that becomes more about self-expression rather than the public discourse which I think is part of the ideal goal of a forum. We all have personal a opinion/experience, so I know I need to check my actions more carefully because this can't become personal character attacks which do not say anything about the subject matter: that instead it should be about being able to put our ideas out there. I just want to remind people that they carry the brunt of the responsibily for expressing their opinion and understanding.

my appreciation of TLJ come from the fact it expresses themes and ideas that are incredible important and underrepresented in cinema. It expresses some of the most important ideas of any Star Wars films in terms of the nature of morality and perspective, as well as learning and change. It also is a perfect representation of the storytelling rule (Pixar's #1 writing rule) that we appreciate characters more for trying than succeeding, because that is how we experience learning and change, in those suble moments.

Edited by the last chronicler

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46 minutes ago, Dr.Cogg said:

More stuff was said.

Let's be honest, unless someone is on the fence, the majority of people know what they like and dislike.  I don't go to a movie to sift through everything with a fine tooth comb, I go to be entertained.  Having a member go watch a video where someone else tears a movie apart they like?  Doesn't seem like the smartest thing to tell someone to do.

Also, use periods please, run on sentences, like so many other things, can just be confusing, and if someone doesn't know where to stop reading, then they will just keep going, and going, and going.  Thanks!

Have fun!

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The reason I told him to see the review was because he asked for the things that were wrong with the movie, so I gave him a review that tells everything, scene by scene wrong with it, that I agree with.

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5 hours ago, the last chronicler said:

x105Black, taking everything I say and just saying 'Nope' is not critical thinking, it just shows you are lazy, reactionary, and lack the skills to validate your own opinion. You bring nothing to the table in this discussion.

That's not really true.  Go pack pages and you'll see my valid criticisms.  Just because you disagree with them doesn't invalidate them.  And these ad hominem attacks do nothing to help your argument.

BB-8 piloting the AT-ST has more in common (at least to me) with the droid factory sequence from the prequels (which was terrible) than that scene on Endor.  And I was in the theater too, and people in my theater laughed at all of the stupid jokes as well.  That doesn't make them good jokes.  People laugh at all kinds of dumb jokes.  These people even yelled out their own stupid jokes during the silent hyperspace moment (a moment I otherwise enjoyed).  So maybe the gut reaction of some theater goers isn't always the best measure of good vs bad comedy either.

5 hours ago, the last chronicler said:

As well, without Snoke's death Kylo's arc would be incomplete, and we would not be able believe he was now in full control, but also feeling the complete loss of that control to his past, and willing to do everything to destroy Luke as representative of that past: thereby you could not have their showdown without dramatic weight and the fear Luke could be destroyed.

I understand that, but they did nothing with Snoke that made me feel anything more than shock and confusion when they unceremoniously sliced him in half.  I typically need to have a connection to a character in order to feel some emotional reaction when they kill that character off, otherwise it falls flat and makes that character seem pointless.  Also, there was no real weight to the Luke showdown since he was a Force Projection or whatever.  We may not have known that immediately, but something was clearly off from the start, and when we find out it cheapens the act (in my mind).

1 hour ago, the last chronicler said:

I may have went to far. I appreciate when others express there opinion when it is not done in a manipulative and reductionist way, because it is really a microcosm of the cherrypicking of data that has plagued the discourse of TLJ, using any ambiguity critically as validation of negative responses, where there are so many qualifiers to RT audience scores that have little to do with regular viewers or the theatrical experience, and websites like imdb that are closer to the traditional online review discourse, and exit polls from the film tell a different broader story. If people are just cherrypicking and quoting to validate some absolute 'true opinion' (for which there is not in art) on a forum, than that becomes more about self-expression rather than the public discourse which I think is part of the ideal goal of a forum. We all have personal a opinion/experience, so I know I need to check my actions more carefully because this can't become personal character attacks which do not say anything about the subject matter: that instead it should be about being able to put our ideas out there. I just want to remind people that they carry the brunt of the responsibily for expressing their opinion and understanding.

You seem to continually place yourself as the objective truth in the argument about The Last Jedi, which is actually quite frustrating to someone who genuinely didn't like the movie for a variety of reasons.  I'm not one of those people who hates it for the diversity / feminism / SJW ideas and themes like all of the right wing nutjobs who are against the movie.  I really wanted to love it as much as I loved The Force Awakens, but it just felt wrong.  Johnson took the direction of the new trilogy and twisted / subverted it for the sake of subversion.  The subversion only seems necessary to the plot of this movie if you accept the base decisions that underlie this one particular movie.  It doesn't feel like it picks up where TFA ends and continues it, it feels like it picks up there and makes a complete turn away from what was set up.  I didn't necessarily want fan service, but I also didn't want (what I see as) terrible jokes, a bad plot, and subversion for no reason.  I wanted Luke, not this bad interpretation of Luke.  But that was part of the basis for this movie that Johnson created, that Luke was shitty now.  That decision kind of makes him shitty.

If Johnson really wanted to explore subversion and such in Star Wars, he should have waited until his eventual trilogy rather than sully the saga.  Speaking of his trilogy, I actually hope they change their minds about it, or that the audience in general doesn't turn out for it.

I'm not saying I'm objectively right about TLJ.  I'm saying I have a subjective opinion that a lot of people (some might say the majority of fans) share, which is that the movie was not good.  You have your own opinion.  Stating that you can counter any criticism of the movie makes it seem like you believe yourself to be the keeper of the 'true opinion' and that you are not really going to allow any real discourse.  You seem to want only to invalidate the opinions of others.

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I think the argument that TLJ is subversive for subversions sake as a theme feels subjective (and particular to fans rather than general audiences ) because it depends on ones sense/understanding of the status quo, but ultimately in a story that 'status quo' has to develop and change in order for the characters to learn and grow. I do not think the film was subversive for its own sake or acting solely to counter the franchise, but reemphasizes the sagas themes. Your reply is very thoughtful, and while I understand why people did not want this TLJ version of Luke I also look back at the OT and much of the contradiction and lack of development there is in his character, the biggest leap being ROTJ's darker confident Luke who is unlike the desperate figure at the end of Empire. What I like about TLJ is how it shows Luke's intuition, his instinct, fails his morality: to him his own failure is the biggest antagonism, and the ultimate negation of his redemption of Vader. He has become his own Vader and failed his own legacy in Ben. It is the lesson of the cave on Dagobah in effect, and in consequence we see his choice to take Jedi morality out of the battle: to choose inaction because he sees himself as imperfect, a failure of the ideal morality he represents. Luke has to relearn that it was never about his own intuition, but about his moral choices to protect those he cares about like his father, and seeing the good in him, that made Luke a hero. I've watched both sequel films back-to-back and they really tell the same arc: to restore peace and justice in the galaxy put into a state of fear and desperation. With the government destroyed by the FO and its only Resistance in isolation, Luke, by sacrificing himself defending the people, restores that power of peace and justice, the means to restore the Republic, by putting it back in the hands of the people: that "finding ones place in the universe"--the great metaphorical driving theme that underlies ANH--is ultimately about protecting each other through the Force that binds us together.

The reason I'm stating that I want to counter criticism is not because I think I have some true opinion, but because a lot of the critisism that has become part of the popular discussion and used as foundational arguments against TLJ have misunderstandings or miss key details of the film's plot and narrative structure. It is not that I don't look at the film or any other with a critical mind, it is just that  I think a lot of fans accentuate non-issues and ultimately fail to see the forest from the trees. They fail to look at the film's own journey. 

Edited by the last chronicler

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8 minutes ago, the last chronicler said:

The reason I'm stating that I want to counter criticism is not because I think I have some true opinion, but because a lot of the critisism that has become part of the popular discussion and used as foundational arguments against TLJ have misunderstandings or miss key details of the film's plot and narrative structure. It is not that I don't look at the film or any other with a critical mind, it is just that  I think a lot of fans accentuate non-issues and ultimately fail to see the forest from the trees. They fail to look at the film's own journey. 

That's fair, however I don't believe I have missed any details or misinterpreted anything.  I just disagree on the importance of those details, or that understanding them makes this any better a movie.  I just don't like the narrative of this movie, and expected something better that would appeal to me rather than try to tear open the saga at its foundations.

What you see as non-issues I see as critical to my enjoyment of the franchise.  Conversely, what I see as major missteps, you see as necessary to the plot of the saga.  It's a simple difference of opinion.  I'm probably just as miffed as you are that someone would hold the opposing position, but here we are.

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21 minutes ago, x105Black said:

That's fair, however I don't believe I have missed any details or misinterpreted anything.  I just disagree on the importance of those details, or that understanding them makes this any better a movie.  I just don't like the narrative of this movie, and expected something better that would appeal to me rather than try to tear open the saga at its foundations.

What you see as non-issues I see as critical to my enjoyment of the franchise.  Conversely, what I see as major missteps, you see as necessary to the plot of the saga.  It's a simple difference of opinion.  I'm probably just as miffed as you are that someone would hold the opposing position, but here we are.

I guess my meaning in expressing this opinion to you is that hindsight is 20/20, and as someone who wrote a paper on TFA a few months after its release, in 2016, I predicted/understood most of the themes of the sequels seen in TLJ correctly, but I also appreciated the thoughtfulness and what I did not expect in Rian's writing. So, I see it like Holdo's speech about the flaw of only believing in the sun when you see it, in that we won't fully appreciate and be grateful of TLJ's themes until we can look back at it in the context of IX. I'm trying to present why this trilogy has artistic value, and possible value beyond the confines of the OT, thanks to TLJ. I'm showing why it is part of a larger journey rather than fan impressions that the film is the end of the journey.

Edited by the last chronicler

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I'll just leave this here...

 

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I would highly recommend this video below as well. 

 

Edited by Forresto

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