Jim

[TC25] Technic Shrinking Contest - Information Topic

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1 hour ago, msk6003 said:

Especially if it had the most views among all contest entry topics, but didn't even make it to the top 30%.

Never have I considered this a statistic to watch. I can understand why you would though. I can also understand wanting to do well in a contest, but if lost? Oh well, had a good time building, the rest would have been a bonus to me.

2 hours ago, msk6003 said:

Why post while in production if no one is replying?

Personally, if I have nothing to add like a suggestion and my comment would boil down to "nice work", I am not sure how much value the reply has for the builder and I'd usually not reply. Me (or anybody else) not replying shouldn't stop the builder from giving updates though, sooner or later somebody is sure to chime in and share his/her thoughts on the build.

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6 hours ago, Appie said:

As long as you enjoyed designing it and are proud of it, does it really matter where it ends up in the ranking?

For people who get into the contest not only because of interesting topic, but also to try themselves and compete with others, if rules are not reliable, it stops being fun. By not reliable, I mean that you have to make some assumptions based on the criteria and you ask about some of them, but some if not explicitly stated, can be often misjudged until we actually ask if something is allowed, how it'll be judged etc. If you keep misjudging "the spirit of the competition" because how rules are not clear, it starts feeling random and out of control, so not fun in context of competition.

Some information is required to figure out if I actually did good - if there is no precise criteria explanation, but there is a list with who's got which place, then you can try to figure out where you're at in comparison to other entries. If there's no list of places then clear explanation of the criteria - how those were judged is something that can give you feedback here.

And for the record, I'm talking about all this because the more clear and restrictive the rules, the more inclusive the contest will be to new people and we'll have more people entering the contest. Some of the contests here with a lot of entries are big repositories of unique building techniques, but also the more people are involved, the more people roam around topics of others and give them feedback throughout the contest time, and that's also part of the fun to interact and have feedback and test various ideas from others giving the feedback.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, because you are repeating same questions/arguments, and the bottom line is people are different and have different approach to things, and so if you all guys think it's not about the rewards, why not make contests more often without physical rewards, but with various cool topics? (this question was already answered by Jim some time ago - it's rhetorical here) Should the contest be only aimed at those who have same approach to this as you, or do you want the physical rewards to be also a bait for bringing other types of contestants?

@msk6003 I agree about wanting for people to interact with you in your thread, but the view count metric doesn't directly represent the quality of the entry. Sometimes the topic you've chosen may be enough for a lot of people to check it out of curiosity, but it doesn't mean those people that peeked inside actually like what's inside. Car transporter set is well known and that's probably why you've had a lot of views, although I don't know if you're referring to this specific contest or something from previous contests.

About posting WIP and not getting any replies - if you add a thread where you're like 100% done with what you want to make and there is no room for improvement (like your thread suggests that you've got your digital design done), it also means there's no room for interaction from others. Also I feel like the western approach here is to just give out positive feedback, and sometimes you shouldn't get a pat on the back, but hard truth that you won't be able to compete with others entries with what you've build.

Note that regardless of whether it's a contest/non-contest thread, if I just drop a complete thing once, or something that is close to completion, there will be just few comments, while starting a thread with just a concept and slowly building on top of that mechanism by mechanism, iteration, by iteration, creates more opportunities for people to see this thread and to comment on the progress. If you drop something close to completion, there's also not that much incentive for someone to take a look at the thread again when it pops up with an update.

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I think all of this discussion should just stop now and let @Jim and @Milan do their great stuff.

there has been way more discussion on this competition and it’s rules than any TC competition before and  I’m sure any competition on the whole of Eurobricks!

Eurobricks Technic competitions have always been open with the rules to allow interpretation and creativity. The most popular competition we ever hosted has 62 entries and was TC18 where you had to make a vehicle to fit the Car Transporter. All the rules stated was a volume box and a series of tyre sizes. It didn’t tell you to build a licenced set, it didn’t tell you if doors needed to open, it didn’t tell you how many functions it would have. But 62 people entered this.

Detailed rules limit choice and decision making … and where do you stop? If you prescribed the rules and voting criteria in infinite detail you could end up with a completion where everyone built a copy of the same model and how boring would that be. 

In terms of judging lots of TC competitions have been public voting … and so each person has made their own judgement on what they deem the voting criteria to be. Those that are complaining / arguing over the rules for voting would they be doing the same if it was a public vote? (This doesn’t need an answer it’s a rhetorical question).

I hope people think long and hard about some of the posts here because if I was @Jim or @Milan I’d be thinking about whether I could be bothered to run a further competition after all the friction and arguments this competition has caused.

For me i compete for fun and the challenge of creating a model I’m proud with.


All these argumentative posts that have arisen front this competition are not part of what I think Eurobricks is about.

 

I’ll end it here by wishing all those entrants good luck, there’s a great range of models, a lot I’d be proud of if they were mine and a whole host that I’d love to make myself if I had the time.

Seasider CEng

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@SaperPL I talk about my aston martin in TC20. Even I post enough WIP post(at least I think) without count reply of first start post, only very few people replied to it before I post first version of brick build bodywork.

When I checked it got most view of every TC20 topic and only I got top 36%. (17 of 47)

Anyway, I don't want to spend my 1000th post on something like this, so I won't write any more.

Edited by msk6003

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7 minutes ago, msk6003 said:

@SaperPL I talk about my aston martin in TC20. Even I post enough WIP post(at least I think) without count reply of first start post, only very few people replied to it before I post first version of brick build bodywork.

When I checked it got most view of every TC20 topic and only I got top 36%. (17 of 47)

Anyway, I don't want to spend my 1000th post on something like this, so I won't write any more.

The number of views is in no way related to the outcome of the contest. When people reply (or when you make a post), your topic is at the top of the page, so automatically more people will check it out. It has nothing to do with interest in the model itself or the build quality.

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42 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Eurobricks Technic competitions have always been open with the rules to allow interpretation and creativity. The most popular competition we ever hosted has 62 entries and was TC18 where you had to make a vehicle to fit the Car Transporter. All the rules stated was a volume box and a series of tyre sizes. It didn’t tell you to build a licenced set, it didn’t tell you if doors needed to open, it didn’t tell you how many functions it would have. But 62 people entered this.

There was a strict rule about the size which I already argued that it's good to not make the contests about who can build bigger, so you're just confirming what I said, while there's some who say with open rules being able to build bigger model because of more time and bigger repository of parts is like genetics in sport... TC18 is indeed a great example of having clear rules that are open, but not every contest was clear like that.

42 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Detailed rules limit choice and decision making … and where do you stop? If you prescribed the rules and voting criteria in infinite detail you could end up with a completion where everyone built a copy of the same model and how boring would that be. 

Again with the extrapolation to infinite. You're simply not right here and it's not a valid argument. You're defending one line of voting criteria and putting infinity as the opposite option. Do I have to draw an axis proving there are numbers like 5 or 12 between number 1 and infinity?

As I stated multiple times - there is an example of a contest (TC20) where entry winning by popular vote was then disqualified by jury through the interpretation of the rules that wasn't obvious despite being asked about and answered differently at the beginning of the contest.

42 minutes ago, Seasider said:

In terms of judging lots of TC competitions have been public voting … and so each person has made their own judgement on what they deem the voting criteria to be. Those that are complaining / arguing over the rules for voting would they be doing the same if it was a public vote?

I already suggested that long time ago that the process should be jury vetting the entries against criteria first and then choosing those who were accepted into contest by jury by popular vote. This is something that also gives community a moment to respond and discuss the jury's interpretation of rules and maybe if someone would be unfairly disqualified, the bigger community would decide before popular vote. But I guess this kind of system stretches out the contest in time and means double the work on choosing the winner...

Also I actually went over the criteria with a spreadsheet in both previous contests where I took part and wanted to be fair in casting a vote, but I get that not everyone will go this far.

9 minutes ago, msk6003 said:

@SaperPL I talk about my aston martin in TC20. Even I post enough WIP post(at least I think) without count reply of first start post, only very few people replied to it before I post first version of brick build bodywork.

Thanks for explanation. But looking at that thread, it kind of makes sense to me? Unless you edited it out in the opening post, you didn't really have much explained what is your initial plan in digital model until you've shown your first video of a chassis.

As Jim explained, the number of views and replies has nothing to do with how people vote. On a side note here, there's also a freshness effect, where if people looked at something for a long time, simply a newer thing is better for them, so finishing the build or just digital design early on may work against you in a popular vote...

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24 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

Do I have to draw an axis proving there are numbers like 5 or 12 between number 1 and infinity?

No you don’t I’m a Chartered Engineer and well aware there are lots of numbers between 0 and infinity. And I find your comment very insulting 

Infinite detail in the sentence I used doesn’t literally mean infinite detail as that’s impossible. It’s meant to describe how someone has defined something so much that it stifles creativity and is too prescriptive. It could mean something has 10 rules it could mean it has 1000.

Edited by Seasider

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1 minute ago, Seasider said:

Infinite detail in the sentence I used doesn’t literally mean infinite detail as that’s impossible. It’s meant to describe how someone has defined something so much that it stifles creativity and is too prescriptive. It could mean something has 10 rules it could mean it has 1000.

Yes, it could mean that, but still - we have a single line with few sentences where each voting criteria is stated as single or few words. And I already stated that it would make a lot more sense to me, for a contest with 4 criteria to make a 5 sentence paragraph for each explaining how they will (by jury) or should (by popular vote) be judged. It means that it would grow from few sentences in one line to few paragraphs and total of 20~ish sentences.

The defense of single line of criteria with the argument of going to infinity is like if we add anything more, we keep adding more and more, which is not true, because it will depend on how well the criteria are outlined in those paragraphs. Of course if there would be a more interesting topic where criteria would be more tricky to explain, it could require more explanation, but it would either mean that we should do it for that specific contest, or the idea of the contest having to rely on something needing so much explanation may not be a valid one.

About stifling creativity - exactly more precise rules make it so that you need to be more creative to tackle the challenge. Yes - too much would be stifling, but I'm not asking for too much, but for good enough so each contest topic is not mostly about asking for interpretation of criteria.

13 minutes ago, Seasider said:

And I find that very insulting.

Don't use the argument of infinite detail where I never asked for infinite detail. Also don't prove a point because someone may get offended doesn't work on me.

You extrapolated to Infinity to prove a point which I wasn't fighting against to begin with - yes, if you go to Infinity with detailed requirements, it will be paralysing for the contest, I agree, but that is beside the point.

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And there we go I was after an apology because I found something deeply insulting and yet you still argue the toss.

@Jim , @Milan … sorry 

 

@SaperPL … stop moaning like a little kid and go and get a megablocking life (damn it doesn’t allow swear words)

 

This is not my Eurobricks … Goodbye!

Edited by Seasider

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Okay, I have had about enough of this endless debate. Let's start focusing on this awesome contest and stop the never ending story....or discussion in this case. It has been going on for too long anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I wanna participate but there's a chance the parts might not arrive tomorrow. :cry_sad:

That would be too bad. But like I stated, there is no option for an extension this time around.

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1 minute ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I wanna participate but there's a chance the parts might not arrive tomorrow. :cry_sad:

I have the same problem - ordered some parts in the beginning of the week and the seller had them mailed in tuesday so I expected to have them at hand in friday at the latest... but they didn't come. So unless they arrive tomorrow, I'll have to enter with the model I have now which is incorrectly coloured and has some aesthetic parts missing. Fortunately it's mostly complete with all the functionality working.

I do understand the hard deadline though, so either way I'll post my finished entry tomorrow.

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On 6/25/2023 at 4:12 PM, Jim said:

Deadline date is August 21nd, 2023.

What timezone is this? I might be able to pull some last minute shenaningans.

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3 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

What timezone is this? I might be able to pull some last minute shenaningans.

Deadline date is August 21nd, 2023. Contest will be closed on Tuesday the 22nd OR LATER. We do have a tight deadline to submit the request for prizes, so there will be NO extension.

We close the contest on Tuesday to avoid timezone issues with closing on Mondays. There is no fixed time, usually when I start a workday on Tuesday (around 8-9 GMT+2, Amsterdam time).

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Please double check your entry posts to make sure everything is according to the requirements, before we close the topic.

 

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Wow, what an amazing group of entries.  There are a couple I had to do a double take to make sure I was looking at the shrunken model! This could give TC20 a run for the money.

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Oh, video is mandatory! *shock* ... ok then I'm out....  :-/

*Edit: Sry really didn't read this till @HorcikDesigns comment.... I can only do a video today, which might be too late... my fault... 

Edited by Jundis

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1 minute ago, Jundis said:

Oh, video is mandatory! *shock* ... ok then I'm out....  :-/

Shoot a simple video with your phone and upload to Youtube.

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1 minute ago, Jim said:

Shoot a simple video with your phone and upload to Youtube.

Still at work, video will be up in the evening... 

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For all contestants who don't have a video yet. Shoot a simple video with your phone. No need for fancy stuff, but try to show the functions. Upload the video to Youtube and link it in your entry post. 

You will have 24 hours to do so, while we are wrapping up the contest.

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2 hours ago, Jim said:

For all contestants who don't have a video yet. Shoot a simple video with your phone. No need for fancy stuff, but try to show the functions. Upload the video to Youtube and link it in your entry post. 

You will have 24 hours to do so, while we are wrapping up the contest.

Thank you very much! 

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