[MOC] My LEGO Renfe S-130

[Imanol]

Hi everyone, I present to you my second version of the Renfe S-130 like Ferro-Friki did some time ago. I wanted to remake this train that I made first in 2018 with not the best result so I now made this version in 7 studs. 

LEGO Renfe S-130 DEF [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

The set is heavily detailed even in the rear of the power cars and end cars

LEGO Renfe S-130 Testeros Interiores [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

I have made a reduced train set of only 7 cars instead of the 11 that has in real life but it has one of each of the different cars that form the real train with detailed interiors.

First the "Preferente" end and "Preferente" 

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Extremo Preferente [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Preferente [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

The interiors of "Preferente" cars

LEGO Renfe S-130 Interior Preferente [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

The "Preferente" adapted car and it´s interior

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Preferente PMR [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

LEGO Renfe S-130 Interior Preferente PMR [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

The cafe car and it´s interior

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Cafeteria [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

LEGO Renfe S-130 Interior cafeteria [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

And the Turista cars which are the same as preferente but with 2+2 seating arrangement

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Remolques Turista [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

LEGO Renfe S-130 Lateral Remolques Turista [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

 

And now that I presented it I want to ask for help to build it as it will be my first lego train in real life. The car coupling mechanism that I have installed is only for aesthetical purposes and will not work in real life. Another problem is that i have seen many models in which all of the rear of the locomotive or power car pivots and I don´t know if it could be necesary to do in this case. Lastly I want to know how to motorize it, being so long I would suppose I would need the two power cars to provide power but I don´t know.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy this project as much as I enjoyed designing it

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Imanol
Repair photo placement

[SD100]

If you search Renfe and Talgo in this forum you should be able to see the ways other people have made those kind of bodies work, I've seen a few different solutions. But when you start actually building it you'll have to refine it to your structure. That's half the fun... lol

SD

[Imanol]

1 minute ago, SD100 said:

If you search Renfe and Talgo in this forum you should be able to see the ways other people have made those kind of bodies work, I've seen a few different solutions. But when you start actually building it you'll have to refine it to your structure. That's half the fun... lol

SD

Thanks, I´ve seen other mocs but my problem is that my cars weigh a lot due to the interior features and I don´t know if it could work the same way. Currently my only source for stability and structural integrity is the feature in the Studio program which may not be the best as coupling two cars instantly makes it think is super stressed

[Hod Carrier]

I fear you're going to have some derailing and/or friction issues if you use fixed axles as shown in your design, as the length of the cars is quite big. You may also need to consider using some kind of articulation between the cars to steer the wheels around curves. There are some ideas from other builders on Flickr if you search for "Lego Talgo". Have a go at building some basic chassis to test and see what happens. You may find that the articulation provides a way of coupling the cars more securely than by using towballs, which would solve two problems in one.

As for strength and structural integrity, I wouldn't trust the stability function in Stud.io as it doesn't always correctly identify areas of weakness. Try and use lots of overlapping parts to give strength and check your build as you go.

[Imanol]

10 minutes ago, Hod Carrier said:

I fear you're going to have some derailing and/or friction issues if you use fixed axles as shown in your design, as the length of the cars is quite big. You may also need to consider using some kind of articulation between the cars to steer the wheels around curves. There are some ideas from other builders on Flickr if you search for "Lego Talgo". Have a go at building some basic chassis to test and see what happens. You may find that the articulation provides a way of coupling the cars more securely than by using towballs, which would solve two problems in one.

As for strength and structural integrity, I wouldn't trust the stability function in Stud.io as it doesn't always correctly identify areas of weakness. Try and use lots of overlapping parts to give strength and check your build as you go.

Thanks, as i said the ball joint is merely for aesthetical purposes. If I understand you correctly when you talk about problems with the length of the cars you refer to not being able to take normal radius curves?. I´ve seen other designs make the axles independent from the cars so I suppose thats why

I checked other Lego Talgo builds but I didn´t find anything that could apparently support the wheight of the cars.

My biggest problem is that I don´t have tracks or any rail pieces to test coupling or articulations.

I think you are right about the issue with Stud.io stability checking feature as with some very basic tests it still shows a lot of stress.

[Ts__]

Very nice design with a lot of details. But you can't get around testing with real brikcs and test drives. Especially with the chassis from the Talgo. That needs test drives in any case. Only with theory will come out there in my opinion not a good result.
So get to the bricks ;-)

Thomas

[Imanol]

1 minute ago, Ts__ said:

Very nice design with a lot of details. But you can't get around testing with real brikcs and test drives. Especially with the chassis from the Talgo. That needs test drives in any case. Only with theory will come out there in my opinion not a good result.
So get to the bricks ;-)

Thomas

Thanks, I know but I would need to order bricks and now I can´t so I´m trying to search for solutions

[zephyr1934]

Nice design, I like the way you went for one stud for each seat, I don't think I've seen that before. As for potentially building it in real brick, you are probably going to need to build a few prototypes to test mechanics and clearances. For that stage of design you just need to get the widths, lengths, and wheel placements correct. Color and specific part usage doesn't matter much. If you are only running it at home you can simply test it on your track, if you are likely to show it in public, you might want to add in a more challenging test track, e.g., putting a plate or even a pencil under a rail joint to simulate uneven tables at a public display.

A train this size is well beyond the normal lego train motor capacity. You will either need something far more powerful (Buwizz?) or a couple of PU hubs connected together. The technic axles are high friction, which simply increases the challenge. That will likely require several iterations to get working. I suppose the first thing to do with that is to turn to the ball bearing wheel sets that several third parties are now producing (or making your own)

[Hod Carrier]

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

Thanks, as i said the ball joint is merely for aesthetical purposes. If I understand you correctly when you talk about problems with the length of the cars you refer to not being able to take normal radius curves?. I´ve seen other designs make the axles independent from the cars so I suppose thats why

 I checked other Lego Talgo builds but I didn´t find anything that could apparently support the wheight of the cars.

I don’t think that supporting the weight will be an issue with the current design, as long as the ball and socket parts are built strongly into the structure of the car bodies. But yes, I think your biggest problem with the current design will be derailing and friction on curves.

I understand that you don’t have track or bricks to try things out, but sometimes it’s cheaper to do this first and build any changes into your design before building it than having to alter everything afterwards. It’s a big train which is going to be expensive to build anyway, so trying out some of the design features first might save you money overall. 

[Imanol]

39 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

Nice design, I like the way you went for one stud for each seat, I don't think I've seen that before. As for potentially building it in real brick, you are probably going to need to build a few prototypes to test mechanics and clearances. For that stage of design you just need to get the widths, lengths, and wheel placements correct. Color and specific part usage doesn't matter much. If you are only running it at home you can simply test it on your track, if you are likely to show it in public, you might want to add in a more challenging test track, e.g., putting a plate or even a pencil under a rail joint to simulate uneven tables at a public display.

A train this size is well beyond the normal lego train motor capacity. You will either need something far more powerful (Buwizz?) or a couple of PU hubs connected together. The technic axles are high friction, which simply increases the challenge. That will likely require several iterations to get working. I suppose the first thing to do with that is to turn to the ball bearing wheel sets that several third parties are now producing (or making your own)

Thanks, I´ve decided that I will make a prototype and then order pieces to make two cars. 

As for the power, the two powercars will be enough?, i´m also planning in making the set 5 cars long instead of 7 if that helps

Edited June 1, 2023 by Imanol

[Darkkostas25]

Great model! Neat interior and a cool idea for scale! And yeah that "joint" type of connection sadly isn`t good, especially for curves :(
Interesting design for the "nose" part of the locomotive. 
Great model and train! 

[Imanol]

Well, I have started making a prototype. I recreated the design of the rodal made by "Ferro-friki" and I have good and bad news. The good news is that it may work but there is a big problem (at least for me) the mechanism invades 5 studs of the car interior. This is a problem in the side with the door but is completely imposible to work around with in the other side as it covers a great part of the seating area. So my question is, will it work with only the lower link?. The lower link is integrated into the structure of the car.

View of the upper link invading the interior:

Prototipo Union Renfe S-130 by Imanol, en Flickr

View of the lower link:

Prototipo de unión vista inferior by Imanol, en Flickr

If the lower link solution is not posible I think I will need another different solution.

Thanks for all the help that I have already received.

[Ferro-Friki]

Cool 130, I like it! I have some issues with the shaping of the front, but overall, it’s pretty good.

Nice details between the head and the coaches. It’s very hard to find reference pictures. The use of the 1x4 panels on their sides is a pretty accurate touch.

The interior is amazing, you did well in ditching minifigure scale. It allows you to capture so many more details.

All my trains have no interior, so I didn’t face this issue, and I admit that the rodal design I used for my 130 is a bit bulky and very likely overengineered. I haven’t tested it without the upper connection, my guess is that it should work but it might be a bit wobbly. I also recommend that you space out the coaches by at least 3 studs in order to have enough room to navigate curves.

Recently I found out that my rodales aren’t as versatile as I thought! I’ve been meaning to use them in my Avlo 112 as well, but the coaches turned out to be too long and the rodales can’t keep up on R40 curves. But the series 130 has shorter coaches, so they might still work on all track elements.

The lone rodal at the end coaches (the one that isn’t shared) could be a bit troublesome as well. I’m still figuring out how to make my own. You might get away with making it swivel freely, specially if you make part of the lower body go with it, like you pointed out some locomotives or power cars do.

This whole rodal thing has a lot of testing to do before it can see the light of day. I’ll try to share any advancement I make, specially the end lone rodales. If you can, try testing the design as soon as you can, like I said, I’m pretty sure the upper link isn’t 100% necessary.

Good luck with this wonderful train!

[Imanol]

5 minutes ago, Ferro-Friki said:

Cool 130, I like it! I have some issues with the shaping of the front, but overall, it’s pretty good.

Nice details between the head and the coaches. It’s very hard to find reference pictures. The use of the 1x4 panels on their sides is a pretty accurate touch.

The interior is amazing, you did well in ditching minifigure scale. It allows you to capture so many more details.

All my trains have no interior, so I didn’t face this issue, and I admit that the rodal design I used for my 130 is a bit bulky and very likely overengineered. I haven’t tested it without the upper connection, my guess is that it should work but it might be a bit wobbly. I also recommend that you space out the coaches by at least 3 studs in order to have enough room to navigate curves.

Recently I found out that my rodales aren’t as versatile as I thought! I’ve been meaning to use them in my Avlo 112 as well, but the coaches turned out to be too long and the rodales can’t keep up on R40 curves. But the series 130 has shorter coaches, so they might still work on all track elements.

The lone rodal at the end coaches (the one that isn’t shared) could be a bit troublesome as well. I’m still figuring out how to make my own. You might get away with making it swivel freely, specially if you make part of the lower body go with it, like you pointed out some locomotives or power cars do.

This whole rodal thing has a lot of testing to do before it can see the light of day. I’ll try to share any advancement I make, specially the end lone rodales. If you can, try testing the design as soon as you can, like I said, I’m pretty sure the upper link isn’t 100% necessary.

Good luck with this wonderful train!

Thanks, for the head and the coaches I used this two reference photos from Listadotren.com

https://www.listadotren.es/galeria/verfoto.php?section=motor&id=5966

https://www.listadotren.es/galeria/verfoto.php?section=motor&id=6824

I´m noticing that everyone has problems with the rodal so I may try to find a new design or at least looking into alternatives. I have one question, your cars are directly in contact with the rodal? After making it in LEGO I can´t understand how it works so I may need help with that as it may help in looking for alternatives.

As for the spacing i´m looking onto the possibility of making the end hollow in order to cover the space but I don´t know if it´s posible.

The end of the car is worrying me but I don´t know how to make it swivel without creating a gap or having structural issues, as with everything I´m not able of having a prototype right now

[Ferro-Friki]

26 minutes ago, Imanol said:

Listadotren.com

That’s a really useful website, I’ll make sure to check it out from now on!

26 minutes ago, Imanol said:

your cars are directly in contact with the rodal?

I’m not sure what you mean, here’s a couple of renders of the rodal I’m currently using for my Avlo, it works exactly like the 130. Hope it helps!

[Imanol]

Just now, Ferro-Friki said:

That’s a really useful website, I’ll make sure to check it out from now on!

I’m not sure what you mean, here’s a couple of renders of the rodal I’m currently using for my Avlo, it works exactly like the 130. Hope it helps!

 

 

Thanks for the pictures they will be useful, As for the question I mean if the weight of the car rests directly on the stand or if it simply hangs from it I think there will be problem with the extra weight. 

As for the links if you start making interiors I recommend you this other page: https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/E/index_RENFE.php 

 

[Imanol]

Well, I still don´t know how I´m going to do the car coupling but I think I have a solution for the end car coupling:

LEGO Renfe S-130 Extremo Preferente Prototipo rodal by Imanol, en Flickr

It can turn 4º but if I extend the coupling arm 0,5 studs it can have a turning radius of 7 degrees in each direction and still maintain the external appearance.

Anyways, if anyone has any idea for the car coupling feel free to comment it.

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

Beautiful model, perfectly rendered!
The presence of the interior is amazing
I'm curious to see it completed to understand the definitive coupling system ...and maybe see it in action.

[Imanol]

1 hour ago, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

Beautiful model, perfectly rendered!
The presence of the interior is amazing
I'm curious to see it completed to understand the definitive coupling system ...and maybe see it in action.

Thanks, the coupling system between power cars and the end cars is mostly finished but as I said the between car coupling is giving me nightmares as I don´t know if it will have the strength of supporting the cars with all the weight of the interior. I only have one thing clear it doesn´t matter if it ends being more expensive but the interior won´t move anywhere.

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

13 hours ago, Imanol said:

I only have one thing clear it doesn´t matter if it ends being more expensive but the interior won´t move anywhere.

LOL 

The will can do everything! 

[Hod Carrier]

@Imanol I've been reading the thread and looking at the various renders to try and understand what the issues are in order to make some sort of assessment. I have no direct experience of replicating the Talgo wheel arrangements, but I have spent a fair amount of time looking at other articulation and axle arrangements.

The rodal design shown by @Ferro-Friki looks sound and should give you the axle steering that your train will need. However, as he says, you will need to make sure that you allow enough space between the cars for them to articulate without the car bodies striking the axles (which I suspect is what is stopping his Alvo from using R40 radius curves).

The rodal design also provides for car-to-car coupling, so there isn't any need to go looking for another solution. If you look at his cut-away render of his Alvo, you can see that one side of the articulation is built into the car on the left side while the car on the right side sits on the red axles and is joined by lowering the car onto these points. This connection will be more than strong enough to support the weight and keep the train together provided that the attachment points inside the car are built into the structure. I would personally use something like a Technic Axle and Pin Connector Hub with 2 Axles (PN:27940) with a Technic Brick 1 x 2 with Axle Hole (PN:32064) on each side built strongly into the structure of the car, but you may need some other solution that fits better into your design. In your own render, you have made an error by making the design of the articulation the same on both sides and have also made both sides 1 stud longer than necessary.

As for the weight of the cars, I still don't think you should worry so much about it. Excessive weight really only has two downsides; it requires more power to move it and it can make any problems you have with friction worse. Weight doesn't really have a negative impact on the coupling, especially for a vertical coupling system like this one. Carrying the weight simply means ensuring that it is transmitted down through whatever structures you have into the wheels that are required to carry it. In this case the design works fine because there is a weight-bearing attachment on the top of the axles to help carry the weight. In addition, each side of the rodal is going to be balanced when the cars are coupled because all the cars are likely to be very similar in weight.

Your implementation of the rodal design currently intrudes 5 studs into your cars, but this is with a 1 stud gap between the cars. As mentioned already, you can lose 1 stud off each end straight away just by copying the design more closely, which will bring the intrusion down to 4 studs. If you extend the gap between the cars to 3 studs as recommended the intrusion is brought down further to just 3 studs, which could possibly be reduced even more by changing some of the parts and the way that it is secured inside the cars. Looking at your earlier cut-away renders of your cars, I think you could possibly live with a 3 stud intrusion without having to sacrifice too much of the interior, which you can achieve by following the proposed rodal design more closely. If you can successfully work these ideas into your design you may not need to discard the top link at all and retain the extra dynamic stability that this will give your train.

I like your idea for the end car coupling and am glad that you have avoided the mistake of using a pivoting magnet on this side of the coupling. Having pivoting magnets on both the locomotive and the end car would be fine under tension (pulling) but not under compression (pushing), as the coupling bar to the axle under the end car almost certainly would be deflected to one side, pushing the axle out of alignment. My only concern with your proposal is that it doesn't appear to have enough articulation for small radius curves like the standard R40. You may have to consider cutting back the sides to give the axle more space to turn.

I think you're getting close to a buildable design now and, by implementing @Ferro-Friki's ideas, you should have a train that looks cool and runs well. Talgos are extremely tricky trains to engineer, but it looks like you're on your way to a winner. If any other thoughts come to me I will add them to this thread. Any questions, just yell. 

On 6/2/2023 at 3:25 PM, Ferro-Friki said:

You might get away with making it swivel freely

I don't recommend this. I tried using free swiveling axles on a long-wheelbase freight car and they don't work. There needs to be some mechanism to allow the axle to steer and turn when it needs to (and to make sure that it turns the right way) and to bring it back to the central position when it goes onto straight track. Free swiveling axles just flop about in any direction they feel like going and then get stuck in the wrong orientation.

If you feel like wasting a couple of hours you can read more about some of my adventures in axle articulation here.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Hod Carrier

[Imanol]

6 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

@Imanol I've been reading the thread and looking at the various renders to try and understand what the issues are in order to make some sort of assessment. I have no direct experience of replicating the Talgo wheel arrangements, but I have spent a fair amount of time looking at other articulation and axle arrangements.

 

Thanks for your help.

I think I may have overreacted with the weight problem, for now the prototype will be built with Ferro-Friki´s design. This is how it looks with the two cars attached.

Remolque Turista Renfe S-130 Prototipo Union Completo by Imanol, en Flickr

As you can see the bogie is partially covered by one car but it doesn´t reduce the movement as is hollow. As for the intrusion of the link in the interior I´m trying to attach it on top, inside the roof but I don´t have a prototype yet. 

Talking about the end car bogie, how many degrees of movement (in each direction) will be needed for R56 or even R40 curves? my idea was to not sacrifice the aesthetic appearance.

This is the current design of it, I don´t now if it will need to be improved

Prototipo Bogie independiente by Imanol, en Flickr

I will later take a look into that thread that you mentioned it looks very useful for the bogie of the Power car. 

 

[Nikonissen]

In a year, when everyone has each their own Talgo done and built IRL, we should do a meet-up and run all of them together and take some photos.

I'll look forward to that ! :D

[Hod Carrier]

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

Thanks for your help.

You're very welcome. This is the beauty of the community. Everyone is willing to pitch-in and help share their ideas, experience and expertise. Never be afraid to ask whenever you feel you need some help or feedback.

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

This is how it looks with the two cars attached.

It looks promising. It's a little hard to see what you've done inside from that angle, though.

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

Talking about the end car bogie, how many degrees of movement (in each direction) will be needed for R56 or even R40 curves?

That depends on a number of things, including the wheelbase of the vehicle (the distance between the axles). The longer the wheelbase or the tighter the curve, the more movement you will need. I don't have a mathematic formula that allows you to calculate how much movement is needed and arrived at the required amount through trial and error, which is the reason why sometimes you have to test build things and try them out.

Happily the wheelbase of your end car looks similar to that of my freight wagon. For that model, I found that I needed around 16 degrees of movement for a wagon with a 25 stud wheelbase to match an R40 curve. You could get away with less if you're prepared for the axle not to turn all the way into the curve, but the trade-off with that approach is that the wheels will "scrub" across the inside of the rails and cause friction.

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

This is the current design of it, I don´t now if it will need to be improved

It looks very chunky. I'd keep things simple and just use a 2x2 turntable plate attached to the four holes on the bottom of a 3x3 plate built into the floor of the end car. It's surprisingly strong and gives you the half-stud offset you need for a 7-wide design.

2 hours ago, Imanol said:

I will later take a look into that thread that you mentioned it looks very useful for the bogie of the Power car. 

You're welcome. There may not be a huge amount in the discussion that applies to Talgo designs, but you may still find it interesting.

32 minutes ago, Nikonissen said:

In a year, when everyone has each their own Talgo done and built IRL, we should do a meet-up and run all of them together and take some photos.

I'll look forward to that ! :D

Sounds like a great plan. We can have a pan-European Talgo-Fest. I might have to have a go at building one myself. 

[Imanol]

 

9 hours ago, Nikonissen said:

In a year, when everyone has each their own Talgo done and built IRL, we should do a meet-up and run all of them together and take some photos.

I'll look forward to that ! :D

Sure, Count me in!