Imanol

[MOC] My LEGO Renfe S-130

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It's looking good. I think the spacing between the cars is fine, as my railcar uses the same gap and runs OK on R40s, even though it has longer cars than your Talgo. Building and testing your design will show if there's any changes that need to be made.

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2 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

It's looking good. I think the spacing between the cars is fine, as my railcar uses the same gap and runs OK on R40s, even though it has longer cars than your Talgo. Building and testing your design will show if there's any changes that need to be made.

Thanks, I agree with you, I think is the moment to start building the prototype. I´m trying to decide what to do as the ideal option would be to build 5 cars (2 end cars, 2 regular cars and the cafe car with 2 bogies) as this would allow to test my theory of the guiding wheels. But this is very expensive an also a problem if the mechanism doesn´t work. The other idea would be to build 3 cars (end car, regular car and cafe car with 2 bogies) but it will be more difficult to test. 

I also finished the visual part of the coupling with the addition of the "gangway" which makes use of the mechanism painted in black and only needs a brick built roof extension as you can see:

52995118527_c9cfd50625_c.jpgRemolque Turista Renfe S-130 Detalle unión final by Imanol, en Flickr

I´m hoping to have the order of parts this next week and to start with the final design of the power car and it´s coupling with the rest of the train.

Thanks, Imanol

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On 6/21/2023 at 3:14 PM, Imanol said:

I´ve been thinking about it and the solution may be in the train itself as the real life Talgos need to be guided by the first axle to take curves. I don´t know if this will help in this case.

You'll have a conventional power car at each end which will guide the first and last axles, so you shouldn't need to do anything else.

The single axles between the cars will be steered by the linkages due to the movement of the cars relative to each other. If a pair of cars make a straight line then the axle between them will be straight. If they make an angle due to the train turning left or right then the axle will be steered left or right. Where you may have a problem is where the train makes a shape that the track doesn't follow.

For example, when I tested the articulation for my railcar I noticed that the cars made almost a straight line when going across the S-bends formed by the points/switches in the test track. This isn't a problem for the railcar because it has bogies that can pivot underneath the cars to take in the curves in the track, but it might be a problem for a Talgo because the axles do not steer independently of the cars. As a consequence you may find that your model struggles on complex track like this because the wheels are not following the shape of the track correctly, causing friction and potentially a derailment. This is why I suggest that you try to avoid having lots of bends and points/switches close to each other when you build some track. But you will see this when you get your train built and tested.

On 6/21/2023 at 3:14 PM, Imanol said:

Another solution will be to reduce the turning radius to the bare minimum to be able to take the curves but I don´t know if this is possible.

There's no need. The amount of steering that you get from the linkages will proportional to the movement of the cars relative to each other. On a wide radius curve you'll get less relative movement between the cars which means you'll get less steering effect, while on small radius curves you'll have more relative movement and more steering. The only way to limit the amount of steering effect is to limit the movement between the cars, but then you won't have the flexibility to run the train on standard LEGO track.

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1 hour ago, Hod Carrier said:

You'll have a conventional power car at each end which will guide the first and last axles, so you shouldn't need to do anything else.

The single axles between the cars will be steered by the linkages due to the movement of the cars relative to each other. If a pair of cars make a straight line then the axle between them will be straight. If they make an angle due to the train turning left or right then the axle will be steered left or right. Where you may have a problem is where the train makes a shape that the track doesn't follow.

For example, when I tested the articulation for my railcar I noticed that the cars made almost a straight line when going across the S-bends formed by the points/switches in the test track. This isn't a problem for the railcar because it has bogies that can pivot underneath the cars to take in the curves in the track, but it might be a problem for a Talgo because the axles do not steer independently of the cars. As a consequence you may find that your model struggles on complex track like this because the wheels are not following the shape of the track correctly, causing friction and potentially a derailment. This is why I suggest that you try to avoid having lots of bends and points/switches close to each other when you build some track. But you will see this when you get your train built and tested.

There's no need. The amount of steering that you get from the linkages will proportional to the movement of the cars relative to each other. On a wide radius curve you'll get less relative movement between the cars which means you'll get less steering effect, while on small radius curves you'll have more relative movement and more steering. The only way to limit the amount of steering effect is to limit the movement between the cars, but then you won't have the flexibility to run the train on standard LEGO track.

Thanks, for now I think the only option is to build it and test it. I don´t know if the difference between the length of your cars compared to the Talgo cars will help or worsen the problem. For now I´m finishing several details in the cars and making them ready to be bought. The only thing that I haven´t decide is how many cars to built.

I´ve seen that you posted a picture of how to align the axle mechanism, will this be needed in real life or is only for stud.io?

Thanks, Imanol

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31 minutes ago, Imanol said:

I´ve seen that you posted a picture of how to align the axle mechanism, will this be needed in real life or is only for stud.io?

That’s for real life.

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On 6/20/2023 at 8:50 PM, Hod Carrier said:

I'm ahead of you.

I've done a very quick mod to the LMS Railcar to turn temporarily into a Talgo. This is how I (illegally) attached the wheelset to the close-coupling system. There are a couple of 1x2 jumper plates (in red) hiding deep inside the render which are joined to the pin holes on a pair of 3L Technic pins. I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily the best solution or the one you should follow, but I wanted to make the modification easily with the minimum of new parts to fit the existing layout of the Railcar. The top half of the mechanism isn't shown because I've not changed anything there.

52989287906_6f514079d0.jpg

So does it work? You know when you've been Talgo'd. :laugh_hard: (Click on the image for the video)

52989555360_31bd87cef9.jpg

Look between the cars and you can see the self-steering effect. It's not perfect but it's working OK. I suspect that there is an issue with the unequal length of the cars or maybe the weight distribution that could be affecting things.

52989548455_8186d44609.jpg

Well, for now I shall wish you luck in your plans and wait to hear what happens. :classic:

I’m very excited to see how things have developed. This looks exactly like what I need for my Avlo, it works on R40 curves AND it even has that fabled close-coupling I’ve been looking for!

IRL Talgo coaches are remarkably short, no doubt in part because of the rodal mechanism, so the fact that you managed to make it work with a more conventional length of coaches is very impressive.

I’ll be testing your design for my own train as soon as I can, thank you for your help! I’m sure the rest of the Talgo-loving community that has recently sprouted appreciates it just as much.

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42 minutes ago, Ferro-Friki said:

I’m very excited to see how things have developed. This looks exactly like what I need for my Avlo, it works on R40 curves AND it even has that fabled close-coupling I’ve been looking for!

IRL Talgo coaches are remarkably short, no doubt in part because of the rodal mechanism, so the fact that you managed to make it work with a more conventional length of coaches is very impressive.

I’ll be testing your design for my own train as soon as I can, thank you for your help! I’m sure the rest of the Talgo-loving community that has recently sprouted appreciates it just as much.

I will try this solution out for my next Talgo project - which will hopefully be built before next year!

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Always happy to help if I can. Try it and test it out and see how it works out with your trains, as I'll be interested to know the results.

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On 6/20/2023 at 11:21 PM, Imanol said:

Thanks, I hope I can tell you more soon and that it will be good news

Okay, I have very good news, I´m now able to talk about it.

This is only possible thanks to the help of the Talgo Group. This is very important as I´m not able to finance this project on my own and they gave me this amazing opportunity after I posted this train on Twitter. But there is also several users like @Hod Carrier, @Nikonissen and @Ferro-Friki that have helped as much.

This also means that the funds for the construction of the train are already secured but there is still some problems that I would want to fix before building it. I´ve been working on the power car and now is able to take curves as you can see:

53024871079_83d8b2b9af_c.jpgRenfe S-130 motriz Bogies mejorados by Imanol, en Flickr

But the motorization part is not ready, I´m trying to decide whether is better to use a powered boggie or a axles and gears mechanism like the lego crocodile locomotive.

Thanks, Imanol.

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1 hour ago, Imanol said:

But the motorization part is not ready, I´m trying to decide whether is better to use a powered boggie or a axles and gears mechanism like the lego crocodile locomotive.

Thanks, Imanol.

I think you'll find the rotational speed of the Technic motors much too slow for a Talgo even with upgearing or extra voltage provided by solutions such as BuWizz battery boxes, NiZn rechargeable batteries etc.
Train motors would be a better fit in that regard in my opinion.

Edited by dtomsen

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13 minutes ago, dtomsen said:

I think you'll find the rotational speed of the Technic motors much too slow for a Talgo even with upgearing or extra voltage provided by solutions such as BuWizz battery boxes, NiZn rechargeable batteries etc.
Train motors would be a better fit in that regard in my opinion.

Thanks, the problem is that the powered bogie is one stud shorter than the current design so I will need to make some adjustments. The main problem is not the speed but the power as 7 cars is a lot and I don´t know how to distribute the traction between the two powercars.

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One train motor and one battery box in each of the two powercars linked and controlled together by the system you choose.
PU or PF with BuWizz/SBrick/PFx Brick can all do this.
And should have more than sufficient power for 7 cars.

Edited by dtomsen

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12 minutes ago, dtomsen said:

One train motor and one battery box in each of the two powercars linked and controlled together by the system you choose.
PU or PF with BuWizz/SBrick/PFx Brick can all do this.
And should have more than sufficient power for 7 cars.

Thanks, I will try it.

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4 hours ago, Imanol said:

Thanks, the problem is that the powered bogie is one stud shorter than the current design so I will need to make some adjustments. The main problem is not the speed but the power as 7 cars is a lot and I don´t know how to distribute the traction between the two powercars.

Another option from the left-field would be to put the train motor on it’s side inside the body of the power car driving a conventional Technic power bogie. It might be a bit of a fiddle to get it set up correctly so that everything aligns properly, but it means that you can have the speed and power you want from the train motor without having to compromise on the size of the bogie.

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11 hours ago, dtomsen said:

One train motor and one battery box in each of the two powercars linked and controlled together by the system you choose.
PU or PF with BuWizz/SBrick/PFx Brick can all do this.
And should have more than sufficient power for 7 cars.

Ball bearing wheels will also be very helpful in reducing your power needs

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Okay, after fighting with Stud.io 2.0 to try and implement the power functions or powered up elements I haven´t find a way to do it so I´m doing all the test with the 9V motor bogie. If someone knows how to implement this pieces it will help a lot. I´ve already tried LDdraw.org and isn´t working as the pieces are incomplete or missing

16 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

Another option from the left-field would be to put the train motor on it’s side inside the body of the power car driving a conventional Technic power bogie. It might be a bit of a fiddle to get it set up correctly so that everything aligns properly, but it means that you can have the speed and power you want from the train motor without having to compromise on the size of the bogie.

Thanks, but I think that it will create a bigger problem. After looking at it I discovered that the main problem is not the length but the height as the powered boggie connects with a piece very similar to the 4025 plate with pin. This plate and bogie have the same problem of having a shorter pin and as I´ve been using normal plate with pins such as the 2460 the powered bogie is slightly shorter and cannot connect. This is a very big problem as there is no alternative for the rest of the bogies to have a similar connection.

10 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Ball bearing wheels will also be very helpful in reducing your power needs

Thanks, but I´ve looked it up and is a little bit complicated as you need a special brick to connect it to the rest of the bogie. If I encountered any problem when I build it I may looked it up as an alternative.

I have another question, does anyone know of an alternative to the lego magnet and magnet holders, they are extremely expensive and fragile so there isn´t a guarantee that it would work once bought. Is the only pieces that I may change for aftermarket or third party replicas but I haven´t found anything yet.

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On 7/5/2023 at 5:45 PM, Imanol said:

Okay, I have very good news, I´m now able to talk about it.

This is only possible thanks to the help of the Talgo Group. This is very important as I´m not able to finance this project on my own and they gave me this amazing opportunity after I posted this train on Twitter. But there is also several users like @Hod Carrier, @Nikonissen and @Ferro-Friki that have helped as much.

This also means that the funds for the construction of the train are already secured but there is still some problems that I would want to fix before building it. I´ve been working on the power car and now is able to take curves as you can see:

53024871079_83d8b2b9af_c.jpgRenfe S-130 motriz Bogies mejorados by Imanol, en Flickr

But the motorization part is not ready, I´m trying to decide whether is better to use a powered boggie or a axles and gears mechanism like the lego crocodile locomotive.

Thanks, Imanol.

Wow, that's huge!

Congratulations - a bit (extremely) jealous that Talgo wants to fund the building of the train. Hope that your model will come out nice!

I just use the old LEGO Magnets. But I see that you have used the expensive coupling piece. There is a cheaper part called 2920 on Bricklink. That is what I use, In terms of magnets, @dtomsen knows where to get some cheaper knock-offs.

In terms of electrical system, I'd recommend Powered Up or Power Functions. Those are the most versatile and cheapest options.

Yes you have to redesign your bogie, but why not just put in that extra time to create an overall better model - especially now that Talgo has accepted to fund it.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Nikonissen said:

Wow, that's huge!

Congratulations - a bit (extremely) jealous that Talgo wants to fund the building of the train. Hope that your model will come out nice!

I just use the old LEGO Magnets. But I see that you have used the expensive coupling piece. There is a cheaper part called 2920 on Bricklink. That is what I use, In terms of magnets, @dtomsen knows where to get some cheaper knock-offs.

In terms of electrical system, I'd recommend Powered Up or Power Functions. Those are the most versatile and cheapest options.

Yes you have to redesign your bogie, but why not just put in that extra time to create an overall better model - especially now that Talgo has accepted to fund it.

 

 

Thanks, I completely understand your jealousness. 

The problem with the other magnet holder (2920) is the height and the point of attachment as the one that I currently use is lined with the technic bricks. If @dtomsen knows a better alternative it would be great.

My idea with the power system is to use Powered Up as is the most recent.  

About redesigning the model, I know the front looks a bit weird but is the best I can do with the limited shapes of LEGO pieces. Nevertheless if you know of a specific improvement feel free to say it.

I've also thought about making the bogie look better but I'd rather have a working model first.

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Hello, I´ve been doing several changes to the front of the S-130 Power car.

53030949367_d3e17b448b_c.jpgLEGO Renfe S-130 Motriz Frontal Nuevo [MOC] by Imanol, en Flickr

I´m not sure if I prefer it like this, is rounder but there is several gaps and overlaps that doesn´t convince me.

What do you think, should I change or keep it like that?. 

Thanks, Imanol

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Okay, I finally have the perfect design for the front of the power car, thanks to @Nikonissen for pushing me to redesign it, I think now is more rounder and has less gaps. What do you think?

53041260655_44e4804321_c.jpgmotriz S-130 Nuevo diseño by Imanol, en Flickr

I´m still having problems with the motor bogie attachment as is slightly higher than the normal pin plate attachment but I´m completely out of ideas to solve it. Does anyone know of a solution. This is the current attachment of the bogie:

53041303780_6cb3ff30c2_c.jpgUnión bogie motriz S-130 by Imanol, en Flickr

Thanks, Imanol

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1 minute ago, Nikonissen said:

There is a fairly simple way of attaching a motor bogie on a 7 wide train. It works, but is not that stable. Here is how I did it on my Øresundstog:

 

51676696741_01793a61c4_c.jpg

bottom_plates by NikoNissen, on Flickr

The part used is 3176

Thanks, but the problem is that the bogies of the cars need another connection that is sligthly different. The difference is less than half a stud (aprox), so maybe it can be ignored

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22 hours ago, Imanol said:

53041303780_6cb3ff30c2_c.jpg

Train motors and bogie plates have a short pin connector on top, so they do not fit full deprth technic beams and connectors. I'd suggest using technic plates or technic half beams for connecting train motors and bogie plates.

3738.png32017.png

Whatever you wind up doing, it is usually best to make a physical mocup with the key features in the right spot. For example, it doesn't matter if you use a 7 long beam in the prototype even if the final version uses a 5 long. What matters is getting the connecting hole in the right spot to test the clearance of the other features. This point is particularly important to make sure the truck can rotate without obstruction from the side frame. It looks like you might also be trying to give the truck the ability to pitch forward and back for uneven track, which makes physical prototyping all the more important since the two degrees of rotation could conflict with each other.

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56 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

Train motors and bogie plates have a short pin connector on top, so they do not fit full deprth technic beams and connectors. I'd suggest using technic plates or technic half beams for connecting train motors and bogie plates.

Whatever you wind up doing, it is usually best to make a physical mocup with the key features in the right spot. For example, it doesn't matter if you use a 7 long beam in the prototype even if the final version uses a 5 long. What matters is getting the connecting hole in the right spot to test the clearance of the other features. This point is particularly important to make sure the truck can rotate without obstruction from the side frame. It looks like you might also be trying to give the truck the ability to pitch forward and back for uneven track, which makes physical prototyping all the more important since the two degrees of rotation could conflict with each other.

Thanks, after using ligftarms I got to the same problem. This is a comparison between the normal bogie and the motor bogie, maybe it can be ignored?

Ignore the 9V motor as Stud.io doesn´t have Power Functions or Powered Up motors.

53042583122_1006da8709_c.jpgDiferencia altura bogie by Imanol, en Flickr

 

Edited by Imanol
Bad photo link

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