10 Things You Probably Didn't Know About LEGO Pirates

[Mister Phes]

I'm planning ahead for a future blog post titled "10 Things You Probably Didn't Know About LEGO Pirates"

I've been reading the recent issues of Blocks Magazine which have interviews Niels Milan Pedersen who, along with Jens Nygaard Knudsen, originally created the LEGO Pirates theme. Niels shares some great anecdotes about the theme's conception that haven't been published elsewhere (that I'm aware of).

That got me to thinking...  what is some trivia even long term LEGO Pirates fans may not be aware of?

So I've began compiling a list, which I'll expand upon with images in the blog post, but what should be included?

@TalonCard, you're a master LEGO Pirates historian, and you could probably create an ongoing series on this topic, but if you were limited to 10 facts (that aren't commonly known), what would you suggest?

 

Here's what I've got so far:

1. Planning for the LEGO Pirates Theme began as early as 1982
2. The LEGO Pirates theme was ready to launch in 1985
3. The Crocodile Came Before the Dragon
4. The Original Pirate Flag Almost Didn't Happen
5. The Blue Coat Soldiers are Officially French
6. There Are 9 Lady Bird Book Titles
7. The Imperial Armada Minifigures Do Have Names

[Captain_SoyBeard]

Thanks! That thing about the crocodile was interesting.

[Mister Phes]

1 hour ago, Captain_SoyBeard said:

Thanks! That thing about the crocodile was interesting.

Yer welcome!

Did you acquire Blocks Magazine?  Or are you just reading from the points I've listed?

[Marooned Marin]

The designer Niels Milan Pedersen explains: “Originally the skeleton was designed a decade before it appeared in a set – but we were told off at the time for creating a dead minifigure!”

I stumble on this information while working on the Classic-Pirates History at Bricks Cascade 2022 , but you can maroon me if I can remember exactly where did I found it.

@TalonCard topics inside the forum proved to be most informative during that write-up.

[Captain_SoyBeard]

3 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

Yer welcome!

Did you acquire Blocks Magazine?  Or are you just reading from the points I've listed?

Just from your points.

[TalonCard]

Thank you for the @s. :) Off the top of my head, early concepts of the DUPLO Pirates theme included a DUPLO figure that appears to be Captain Redbeard (see the "Captain Figure Mockup" about 1/3rd of the way down), and the actors portraying Will and Camilla in the German audio dramas are brother and sister in real life: Sascha Draeger and Kerstin Draeger.

Edited April 26, 2023 by TalonCard

[Yperio_Bricks]

The DUPLO Pirates box art looks like the crazy AI stuff some of us crated lately

[PxChris]

You might already be covering this with your point 4, but an antidote about how Kjeld (or was it Godtfred?) almost nixed the whole idea of a skull and crossbones at all due to it being too scary for kids.

[Mister Phes]

1 hour ago, PxChris said:

You might already be covering this with your point 4, but an antidote about how Kjeld (or was it Godtfred?) almost nixed the whole idea of a skull and crossbones at all due to it being too scary for kids.

That's exactly what point 4 will be elaborating upon.

On 4/27/2023 at 12:30 AM, TalonCard said:

Thank you for the @s. :) Off the top of my head, early concepts of the DUPLO Pirates theme included a DUPLO figure that appears to be Captain Redbeard (see the "Captain Figure Mockup" about 1/3rd of the way down), and the actors portraying Will and Camilla in the German audio dramas are brother and sister in real life: Sascha Draeger and Kerstin Draeger.

Thank you for that information! 

[Mister Phes]

Typically, through good I stumbled upon Brick Fanatics Issue 10 has exclusive Pirate interview!

Now where to get a copy of Issue 10 almost 4 yeas later?

I'll just copy your quote to this topic for safe keeping.

On 10/16/2019 at 2:57 PM, TalonCard said:

Update: I visited LEGOLAND and the LEGO House for the first time last week, and my only consolation for having to leave Billund was that this magazine was waiting for me.  I'd definitely recommend this issue to all Pirate fans; it's a pretty cool article.

A few interesting facts:

- The theme was pretty much ready to go as early as 1986, but LEGO held off on releasing the sets because the Castle line was selling so well that they didn't have the capacity to make more sets.

- A Western theme was developed in tandem with the Pirates, but didn't see release in the 80s. (This might explain the early Western prototypes with bison and such that we've seen pictures of.)

- Early prototypes for Pirate hulls were designed to float in water, before the idea was dropped.

- The crocodile was designed early on for Pirates, but didn't make it to market until after some of the elements were re-used in Castle dragons.

- The ramp-and-pit raised baseplates were a huge pain to design; they had to be printed on a piece of flat plastic and the only way to make sure they looked good after the plastic had been molded was trial and error. (!)

There's only one piece of never-before-seen concept art; a simple but extensive sketch of all the original 1989 sets together--pretty neat to see, but nothing particularly earth shattering. The original pictures are nice, but fairly small scale.

I also picked up Brick Fanatics #3, which has a small piece about how the ad agency Advance put together the marketing materials for the 1989-1992 Pirate sets. Very cool behind-the-scenes stuff. Here's hoping Brick Fanatics has more behind-the-scenes Pirate content in the future!

[Piraten]

On 4/26/2023 at 7:13 AM, Mister Phes said:

I'm planning ahead for a future blog post titled "10 Things You Probably Didn't Know About LEGO Pirates"

I've been reading the recent issues of Blocks Magazine which have interviews Niels Milan Pedersen who, along with Jens Nygaard Knudsen, originally created the LEGO Pirates theme. Niels shares some great anecdotes about the theme's conception that haven't been published elsewhere (that I'm aware of).

 

1. The Blue Coat Soldiers are Officially French

Sorry. But that's not correct. The soldiers are based on the danish royal guards that have both a blue and red uniform. 

I have not read all the comments. But here are some things. 

But the skeleton flag was to scary for kids in Gotfreds opinion.

The skeleton was not released before 10 after it was developed. And it was on demand from Gotfred that it must have loose arms so it not was able to attack anyone with 

The sails in white and red on 6285 and white and blue on 6274 is known as danish and swedish colours and was made that way to tease the swedes. And the sails are actually made in Sweden.

Niels is out af a family of sailors. 

All the promotion pictures and box art for the first line in the pirates series was produced in London. Niels Milan did himself with a photostudio in London.

The first octopus has a small dent on one of the arms. Because of the clay model was damaged. Took some time before the mold was changed.

It took 82 different examples of the raised baseplate before it was made in the shape we know today.

I could call Niels and ask him for more. 

Anyone that could share the pages from blocks.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Piraten

[Mister Phes]

12 hours ago, Piraten said:

Anyone that could share the pages from blocks.

Well, they could, if they purchased a copy of the magazine and extracted the information.  But that would be plagiarism.

I'm writing writing a brand new article using Blocks magazine and various other sources for reference.

12 hours ago, Piraten said:

Sorry. But that's not correct. The soldiers are based on the danish royal guards that have both a blue and red uniform. 

That's not what the official LEGO' website states on its Pirates History page.

Maybe other language versions of that page have different information, but the English versions states:

Alongside the Pirates are Governor Broadside’s blue-coated troops whose task it is to fight the Pirates. These forces are based upon the French navy and marines of the colonial era and are known as ‘Imperial Soldiers’ by fans

Which make sense, because LEGO Pirates have a Caribbean setting and the French were involved in that region, whereas the Danes were not.

But maybe information exists elsewhere that states otherwise...

12 hours ago, Piraten said:

I could call Niels and ask him for more. 

That would be great!  There are so many more questions that could be asked on how LEGO Pirates came to be...

I've researched as widely as possible (more than just Blocks Magazine), but the information is limited.  In the Blocks magazine interview, Neils provides details on the creation of the pirates, but there is no information whatsoever on the Soldiers.

So who created them?  And what was the process?

This image of an unreleased prototype theme named Europa features the blue coat soldiers, and even the Governor Broadside minifigure.

Maybe my understanding of how LEGO themes are developed is flawed, but I assume they would not use the Governor Broadside minifig for two different themes.

So my theory is this Europa theme was developed in tandem with Pirates but Europa didn't make the cut, so they used the Soldiers as part of the Pirate theme instead.

But it would be fantastic if Neils could provide more information on exactly what happened.

[Sir Dano]

Looks like the brickfanatics website is still around, you could try emailing them and asking if they still have a copy laying around you could purchase.

[PxChris]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:09 PM, Mister Phes said:

Well, they could, if they purchased a copy of the magazine and extracted the information.  But that would be plagiarism.

I'm writing writing a brand new article using Blocks magazine and various other sources for reference.

That's not what the official LEGO' website states on its Pirates History page.

Maybe other language versions of that page have different information, but the English versions states:

Alongside the Pirates are Governor Broadside’s blue-coated troops whose task it is to fight the Pirates. These forces are based upon the French navy and marines of the colonial era and are known as ‘Imperial Soldiers’ by fans

Which make sense, because LEGO Pirates have a Caribbean setting and the French were involved in that region, whereas the Danes were not.

But maybe information exists elsewhere that states otherwise...

That would be great!  There are so many more questions that could be asked on how LEGO Pirates came to be...

I've researched as widely as possible (more than just Blocks Magazine), but the information is limited.  In the Blocks magazine interview, Neils provides details on the creation of the pirates, but there is no information whatsoever on the Soldiers.

So who created them?  And what was the process?

This image of an unreleased prototype theme named Europa features the blue coat soldiers, and even the Governor Broadside minifigure.

Maybe my understanding of how LEGO themes are developed is flawed, but I assume they would not use the Governor Broadside minifig for two different themes.

So my theory is this Europa theme was developed in tandem with Pirates but Europa didn't make the cut, so they used the Soldiers as part of the Pirate theme instead.

But it would be fantastic if Neils could provide more information on exactly what happened.

The caption for that Europa theme image that Mark Stafford published in Brick Journal magazine states the following:

Theme Name: Europa 1700

 Archives file date:  1994

Description: Europe in the 18th Century, featuring cannon-forts, towns, bridges and transportation. Possibility of including Witches, Bridge Trolls and also is is the time of Dracula. Alternatively the theme could include historically correct soldiers of the Scotch, Russian, Dutch armies etc. with ships, hot-air balloons and the like. This is also the colonial era...

Cancellation reason: Unknown, presumed to be too close to the castle and pirates themes at the time.

 

So it appears from that caption that this concept was developed a few years into the Pirates theme, but used those figs from the theme because of their availability at the time.

[Mister Phes]

7 hours ago, PxChris said:

So it appears from that caption that this concept was developed a few years into the Pirates theme, but used those figs from the theme because of their availability at the time.

Thank you for that information - assuming the Archives File Date is the same year as the development.

On 5/3/2023 at 7:46 PM, Sir Dano said:

Looks like the brickfanatics website is still around, you could try emailing them and asking if they still have a copy laying around you could purchase.

That is indeed what I'll do... but I'm currently communicating with Block magazine in regards to their back issues containing Pirates.

So I'll get that sorted out first.

[PxChris]

On 5/3/2023 at 2:46 AM, Sir Dano said:

Looks like the brickfanatics website is still around, you could try emailing them and asking if they still have a copy laying around you could purchase.

 

13 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

That is indeed what I'll do... but I'm currently communicating with Block magazine in regards to their back issues containing Pirates.

I really wish that since the magazine is now out of print (and has been for a while) that they would make the magazine issues readily available. Either as freebies, or even for a modest fee.

13 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

Thank you for that information - assuming the Archives File Date is the same year as the development.

Yeah, it's definitely an assumption to make. But it's the most reliable information we have on it since it came straight from a LEGO designer.

[Mister Phes]

59 minutes ago, PxChris said:

But it's the most reliable information we have on it since it came straight from a LEGO designer.

Did you happen to catch the name of the designer?

[PxChris]

2 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

Did you happen to catch the name of the designer?

Mark Stafford

[Mister Phes]

Just now, PxChris said:

Mark Stafford

Thank ye - his name has popped up a lot in my research.

[MAB]

Being based on something is not the same as officially being something. Being based on the French navy does not make the Imperials French.

 

[Mister Phes]

9 minutes ago, MAB said:

Being based on the French navy does not make the Imperials French.

That is correct.  From my understanding those sub themes were inspired historic naval powers but their actual affiliation/nationality is entirely fictional.

So perhaps it's not accurate to state "The Blue Coat Soldiers are Officially French" and should be revised to "The Blue Coat Soldiers are based on French naval forces"

[TalonCard]

 

On 5/2/2023 at 11:09 PM, Mister Phes said:

This image of an unreleased prototype theme named Europa features the blue coat soldiers, and even the Governor Broadside minifigure.

Maybe my understanding of how LEGO themes are developed is flawed, but I assume they would not use the Governor Broadside minifig for two different themes.

So my theory is this Europa theme was developed in tandem with Pirates but Europa didn't make the cut, so they used the Soldiers as part of the Pirate theme instead.

But it would be fantastic if Neils could provide more information on exactly what happened.

 

 

On 5/4/2023 at 12:00 PM, PxChris said:

The caption for that Europa theme image that Mark Stafford published in Brick Journal magazine states the following:

Theme Name: Europa 1700

 Archives file date:  1994

Description: Europe in the 18th Century, featuring cannon-forts, towns, bridges and transportation. Possibility of including Witches, Bridge Trolls and also is is the time of Dracula. Alternatively the theme could include historically correct soldiers of the Scotch, Russian, Dutch armies etc. with ships, hot-air balloons and the like. This is also the colonial era...

Cancellation reason: Unknown, presumed to be too close to the castle and pirates themes at the time.

So it appears from that caption that this concept was developed a few years into the Pirates theme, but used those figs from the theme because of their availability at the time.

I think you're both actually right here; the archives file date image makes sense given the minifigures, but the Secret Life of LEGO Bricks book does state that Europa was considered as one of the historical follow-ups to Castle, along with Western and Pirates. Multiple elements were put into development with the understanding that they could be used across all three themes:

Quote

"Vikings came up again and was developed for the second time, along with several other ideas: Western, Pirates, and a Napoleonic Wars theme, eventually dubbed "Europa", which would combine aspects of LEGO Castle and Pirates together."
-Pages 95-96
"As soon as everything was completed for the formal relaunch of LEGO Castle in 1984, designers began to develop Europa, Western, and Pirates, with a winner to be decided later. Thus began one of the most intensive periods of element development in decades."
"Other potential parts also had multiple uses pitched. Cannons could be used in Western, Europa, and pirate settings, along with pistols and rifles."
-Page 98

The soldier minifigure accessories (and possibly prints?) aren't mentioned but it would make sense if they also shared some common elements with Europa during that early development period. A clue could be that the bicorn as used on Captain Redbeard looks quite different from Niels's original design. One key takeaway from the book was that most theme proposals weren't dropped immediately and hung around to be redeveloped and re-pitched for decades. Western obviously came back, but even Adventurers had an early proposal in the 80s that was dropped to avoid similarities with Raiders of the Lost Ark. So it makes a lot of sense that even though Europa was around at the time Pirates was developed in the early 80s, the pictures we have are probably from an updated proposal in 1994. Also note that the theme was "eventually dubbed 'Europa'", which could mean that this is the name itself wasn't around until 1994 and earlier versions used a different name or no name at all.

Another recurring theme in the book is that the LEGO Group's hesitancy to depict any kind of conflict had a huge influence on the development of themes, but the inevitable trend toward story based conflict play meant that the designers had to come up with increasingly far-fetched excuses for factions and weapons. The early Castle swords weren't just designed to avoid appearing threatening, the designers even nicknamed them cake knives. Pirates were allowed to have early firearms and cannons because the designers argued that these early weapons were notoriously unreliable and inaccurate, and that the soldiers and pirates would be too busy chasing after treasure to spend much time fighting anyway. This was ultimately one of the main reasons Pirates was chosen over Western, with its more modern weapons and genre focus on shootouts, and Europa, with its nation-based conflicts. (This is probably why the soldiers and later Imperial Guards don't have a definite nation assigned to them by their flags or story material.)

Regarding the Brick Fanatics issues, since the magazine is out of print I'd be happy to add the Pirate related material to my scan list.

TC

Edited May 5, 2023 by TalonCard

[PxChris]

51 minutes ago, TalonCard said:

I think you're both actually right here; the archives file date image makes sense given the minifigures, but the Secret Life of LEGO Bricks book does state that Europa was considered as one of the historical follow-ups to Castle, along with Western and Pirates. Multiple elements were put into development with the understanding that they could be used across all three themes:

The soldier minifigure accessories (and possibly prints?) aren't mentioned but it would make sense if they also shared some common elements with Europa during that early development period. A clue could be that the bicorn as used on Captain Redbeard looks quite different from Niels's original design. One key takeaway from the book was that most theme proposals weren't dropped immediately and hung around to be redeveloped and re-pitched for decades. Western obviously came back, but even Adventurers had an early proposal in the 80s that was dropped to avoid similarities with Raiders of the Lost Ark. So it makes a lot of sense that even though Europa was around at the time Pirates was developed in the early 80s, the pictures we have are probably from an updated proposal in 1994. Also note that the theme was "eventually dubbed 'Europa'", which could mean that this is the name itself wasn't around until 1994 and earlier versions used a different name or no name at all.

Oh... you're absolutely right @TalonCard! I'd completely forgotten about that in the the Secret Life book (even though it's only been a few months since I read the book).

You make some excellent points and observations!

53 minutes ago, TalonCard said:

Regarding the Brick Fanatics issues, since the magazine is out of print I'd be happy to add the Pirate related material to my scan list.

Yes please!!

I have photos of the issues, but hi-res scans would be much preferred! 

[Mister Phes]

10 hours ago, TalonCard said:

"As soon as everything was completed for the formal relaunch of LEGO Castle in 1984, designers began to develop Europa, Western, and Pirates, with a winner to be decided later. Thus began one of the most intensive periods of element development in decades."

Based on that statement, Europa would need to exist in some capacity prior to 1989 to compete for the winning place.

And a later page states "Pirates were chosen over Western and Europa"

10 hours ago, TalonCard said:

I think you're both actually right here; the archives file date image makes sense given the minifigures, but the Secret Life of LEGO Bricks book does state that Europa was considered as one of the historical follow-ups to Castle, along with Western and Pirates. 

That video is quite useful.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention - there's even a link to a PDF version of the book.

Can we post screenshots here without violating some intellectual property law?  Because technically the YouTuber is already doing that and we're just analyzing select frames of his video for critical purposes.

 

 

Here are a couple of other pages relevant to Europa:

[TalonCard]

On 5/5/2023 at 3:23 PM, PxChris said:

Yes please!!

I have photos of the issues, but hi-res scans would be much preferred! 

I've scanned the Pirate articles from Brick Fanatics Issues 3 and 9 here, as the magazine is currently unavailable. :) Hope this is helpful, enjoy!