LEGO Mindstorms to be discontinued

[Brickroom7]

BTW, the 51515 hub has an issue with pitch readings. When I tilt the hub along the pitch axis and you are almost perpendicular with the ground, the readings will go  80, 81, 83,  83, 83, 83.....then goes to 90. 

I've mentioned this 3 times to LEGO and either I get.."We will fix this on the next update" or I they reply that they don't understand what I'm talking about.

Anyone else seen this on their hub?

[HydroWorld Outlook]

I have some good news about this. First, LEGO has added all of the Spike Prime products to their retail website. So maybe, they are opening it up to the general public to replace Mindstorms. The other good news is that I learned it is indeed possible to re-flash the Spike Prime Hub with Robot Inventor Firmware using the Robot Inventor application. Meaning that, as long as you have the application already saved and installed to your device, you can retain the exact same functionality of the Robot Inventor Hub with the Spike Prime Hub. The part colors will be less appealing, of course, but at least losing the Robot Inventor will not be a total loss, as all of the same features will still work with the Spike Prime System, including the Powered UP Compatibility and Hub-2-Hub Communication. 

Now, by no means am I justifying the TLG's actions here. I still believe that the cancellation of the Mindstorms lineup was unacceptable, however, I am very grateful that the Powered UP system has developed enough to provide workaround solutions.

Edited November 4, 2022 by HydroWorld Outlook

[2GodBDGlory]

Oh, that does take a lot of sting out of it, as long as it lasts!

Does this also make the unique electronics from the SPIKE Essential kit more accessible, though still expensive?

[Brickroom7]

I downloaded the Spike Prime app and plugged in the RI hub. The app then said it was updating the hub. I thought it had flashed it as a spike prime hub, but I could not get the hub to connect to the app. Tried bluetooth and the cable. 

 

[kbalage]

13 hours ago, HydroWorld Outlook said:

Now, by no means am I justifying the TLG's actions here. I still believe that the cancellation of the Mindstorms lineup was unacceptable, however, I am very grateful that the Powered UP system has developed enough to provide workaround solutions.

There are a few question marks remaining though. What about all the downloadable content in the Mindstorms app, how that will be accessible after 2024? Keeping the app installed or the apk available or unofficial sites for power users is an option, but that shouldn't be the official way to go. Hopefully TLG will make the whole Mindstorms "package" available for download before pulling the plug, although I don't think that is possible on all platforms, e.g. on iOS. If they want to keep the features and functionality alive then all extra abilities of Mindstorms and the current content within the app should be made available in the Spike Prime environment.

About Powered Up, unfortunately it is nowhere near as developed as Mindstorms, it is still totally undocumented and most importantly it doesn't work with the 6 port hubs at the moment.

[Unbrickme]

On 11/5/2022 at 12:59 AM, kbalage said:

There are a few question marks remaining though. What about all the downloadable content in the Mindstorms app, how that will be accessible after 2024? Keeping the app installed or the apk available or unofficial sites for power users is an option, but that shouldn't be the official way to go. Hopefully TLG will make the whole Mindstorms "package" available for download before pulling the plug, although I don't think that is possible on all platforms, e.g. on iOS. If they want to keep the features and functionality alive then all extra abilities of Mindstorms and the current content within the app should be made available in the Spike Prime environment.

About Powered Up, unfortunately it is nowhere near as developed as Mindstorms, it is still totally undocumented and most importantly it doesn't work with the 6 port hubs at the moment.

I really hope that LEGO will put official download links on their website. On the mindstorms section of the LEGO website, you can still download the software for the NXT, despite it being discontinued in 2013. And you can still download the software for the EV3. I strongly believe that LEGO will continue to provide people with downloads on their website. Maybe, once the Mindstorms theme gets removed from the website, the downloads can move to the Spike section. I still see people in my comments section believing that the Mindstorms Robot Inventor system requires a smart mobile device, such as an iPhone, and that it is impossible to use with a regular computer. The truth is, just like all of the previous generations of Mindstorms, the Robot Inventor's software is made primarily for the computer, windows and MacOS. It's just that, the software on both mobile and computers is so close, that they are almost identical. It's not a downgrade of the software, but rather, advanced features of the computer software finally being made available on mobile devices.

In any case, some people got to experience LEGO's beta apps, such as beta access to the control+ app for review purposes. The download of the beta apps does not come from the iOS app store or the google play store, but rather, from a special website. This could be the exact way everyone can download the Robot Inventor software on their mobile devices once they get pulled from the mobile app stores. No need to have already downloaded the app on iOS or use an APK

[kbalage]

40 minutes ago, Unbrickme said:

In any case, some people got to experience LEGO's beta apps, myself included. The download of the beta apps does not come from the iOS app store or the google play store, but rather, from a special website. This could be the exact way everyone can download the Robot Inventor software on their mobile devices once they get pulled from the mobile app stores. No need to have already downloaded the app on iOS or use an APK

Providing beta access on mobile platforms is usually account-based, this is not a solution meant to be used by the general public. If they make the software fully available for download on lego.com at least for one platform that is already somewhat acceptable, but I still think the best would be to implement the missing functionality in the Spike Prime app until 2024. I really don't see why these functions (machine learning, remote support) shouldn't live going forward if they've been already developed for a very similar environment. 

[Unbrickme]

3 minutes ago, kbalage said:

Providing beta access on mobile platforms is usually account-based, this is not a solution meant to be used by the general public. If they make the software fully available for download on lego.com at least for one platform that is already somewhat acceptable, but I still think the best would be to implement the missing functionality in the Spike Prime app until 2024. I really don't see why these functions (machine learning, remote support) shouldn't live going forward if they've been already developed for a very similar environment. 

With the beta apps, my point was that it is entirely possible to download apps from the web onto your iOS device. By removing the account requirement, and with a few tweaks, this could be a solution ready to be used by the general public! The mobile app does not have to remain on apple's or google's app stores, but rather, the mobile app can be stored on LEGO's servers, ready to be downloaded by anyone at any time. Regarding implementing missing functionality into the spike app, while I agree, I still think that the Robot Inventor app should continue to remain available. People need to be able to experience a set as if it were never discontinued. Also, programs you create in the spike app are saved as .llsp files, whereas the robot inventor programs are saved as .lms files. There are also a few other key differences in the apps that make compatibility challenging.

Also the Robot Inventor app has far better documentation, tutorials, and more! Both of these apps are fundamentally different, and while bringing things like hub-to-hub communication to the Spike App would improve it, I do not believe that it is the ultimate solution.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

Maybe you want to make backups of the APK
There is a tool for it

https://www.thefastcode.com/nl-eur/article/how-to-download-apk-files-android-apps-from-google-play

[Unbrickme]

20 minutes ago, kbalage said:

Providing beta access on mobile platforms is usually account-based, this is not a solution meant to be used by the general public

All LEGO needs to do is to make the ipa file for the robot inventor app available to download on their website, then it can be downloaded to iOS from the web. They can also do the same thing but with an apk for android

[Coder Shah]

You can use PyBricks to program both the SPIKE Prime and Robot Inventor hubs.

https://pybricks.com/install/spike-mindstorms/

 

[shroomzofdoom]

51515 drew me into the Lego universe at the relatively young age of 50. I've easily spent $10K in various sets and parts in just a year, another $2K or so on non-Lego brands (buwizz, CADA, etc). What probably made them throw in the towel was seeing pybricks and realizing that mindstorms would never be as simple or elegant. Ultimately, mindstorms had too much development overhead and couldn't keep pace with the market. I'll bet they didn't sell nearly as many as they thought they were going to. 

[steyin]

Seymour Papert is rolling in his grave.

RIP Mindstorms.

[HydroWorld Outlook]

On 11/7/2022 at 8:45 PM, Coder Shah said:

You can use PyBricks to program both the SPIKE Prime and Robot Inventor hubs.

That's true, but PyBricks does not offer block-based programming options. Additionally, it does not allow you to create an account, meaning you cannot reliably save your programs on the site. Instead, it relies on browser cookies, which can be unintentionally deleted if your browser cache gets too full. That happens a lot with Google Chrome. At the end of the day, LEGO's official software is the best and safest option.

You know what I think TLG needs to do? Get rid of the standalone Spike Prime App altogether. It's so lackluster in its functionality that its better off scrapped. What we really need to see is a single LEGO Powered UP Programming Application that can run on both computers and mobile devices. Since Mindstorms will no longer exist soon enough anyway, and Spike Prime is basically the same thing, it might as well replace the Robot Inventor as a consumer-facing product. And TLG is already merging other standalone Powered UP apps (Droid Commander, Control+, etc.), so why not include Spike Prime? A Python coding interface would need to be added to Powered UP, sure, but wouldn't it be a lot more efficient to allow that feature for every LEGO Powered UP Hub rather than just Spike Prime? Then LEGO can focus their team's energy on a single, powerful application (with proper documentation) rather than wastefully dividing their attention across a bunch of mediocre standalone ones with far less functionality, kind of like what they did for LEGO Life. After all, if one thing has been made clear since the discontinuation of the EV3, is that Powered UP is the future of Mindstorms.

The core advantage of Mindstorms proper was that it could be programmed via a computer as well as tablets and smartphones. Meanwhile, you presently cannot do this with other LEGO hubs; the app for that works exclusively on mobile devices. If Mindstorms is going away, then we will lose the ability to program LEGO models on the computer, which will shrink the market that the products appeal to. If TLG really wants to get the greatest potential possible out of the Powered UP System, then they're going to have to appeal to those who relied on Mindstorms by continuing its legacy through the Powered UP System, and give us some option for computer control at some point. So why not just do it now? Why not just merge everything into one application and provide compatibility for all three kinds of devices? Sounds like a simple, one-size-fits-all solution to me. They do that and everyone will be happy, not just Technic fans but also those of non-Technic sets like the City Train, Duplo, and Boost kits that already share Powered UP Technology anyways. After all, we already heard LEGO was going to incorporate the Mindstorms hub into Powered UP anyway before it got discontinued, so as far as I am concerned, including Spike Prime and adding all the same features Robot Inventor had (Hub2Hub, Fan Models, Interactive Instructions) seems like the most logical course of action for the Powered UP team at this point. What do you all think?

Edited November 13, 2022 by HydroWorld Outlook

[Lira_Bricks]

14 hours ago, HydroWorld Outlook said:

That's true, but PyBricks does not offer block-based programming options. Additionally, it does not allow you to create an account, meaning you cannot reliably save your programs on the site. Instead, it relies on browser cookies, which can be unintentionally deleted if your browser cache gets to full. That happens a lot with Google Chrome. At the end of the day, LEGO's official software is the best and safest option.

There are a lot of places where you can host code (Python in the case of PyBricks). Think of places like Github or Gitlab. You can also always host your own git-server (or other source controll).

I would never fully trust an online service to save my stuff, and would always want to have an offline back-up, which is also easy to do with git.

[sp1984]

Is this Mindstorms set worth buying in the end of 2022 year?

LEGO com has it discounted by 20%.

Prefer use Pybricks on this hub.

 

 

On 11/8/2022 at 4:55 AM, shroomzofdoom said:

51515 drew me into the Lego universe at the relatively young age of 50. I've easily spent $10K in various sets and parts in just a year, another $2K or so on non-Lego brands (buwizz, CADA, etc). What probably made them throw in the towel was seeing pybricks and realizing that mindstorms would never be as simple or elegant. Ultimately, mindstorms had too much development overhead and couldn't keep pace with the market. I'll bet they didn't sell nearly as many as they thought they were going to. 

Tell me please which comparable kits has got ahead of Mindstorms? Why you think Mindstorms couldn't keep pace with the market?

[shroomzofdoom]

17 hours ago, sp1984 said:

Tell me please which comparable kits has got ahead of Mindstorms? Why you think Mindstorms couldn't keep pace with the market?

When I made that comment, I wasn't necessarily referring to all-in-one 'kits' that compete with Mindstorms I meant that Lego is challenged to keep up with the demands of its own customers and the app always seemed a step behind where their customers wanted to see it. For example, look at how many third party products are selling motors and batteries with PF compatible connectors (Buwizz, Cada, MouldKing, etc) Lego walked away from PF connections YEARS ago but the huge secondary market for PF products implies what an untimely decision it was. How could they predict that people would buy dozens of funny-shaped RC/buggy motors instead of the square and easy to integrate angular motors? Yet, people are STILL buying knockoff PF motors. It's the power output. I'll bet they envisioned Mindstorms would capture at least some of this market. It didn't. It really became an entry level set that most quickly grow out of. I love having six connections per hub but I rarely use my two Mindstorms hubs. I had nothing but problems pairing those hubs use the official app on android..so much of that app was 'apple-centric'.. When I discovered pybricks I couldn't flash them quick enough. Lego tends not to move in the direction of obscene power outputs, AFOLs do but here again, the hub output was just bla.

Edited November 27, 2022 by shroomzofdoom

[UltraViolet]

  Within the past month I bought separately the Mindstorms hub and four gray motors, just to make sure I had them in my collection before they became unobtanium or prohibitively expensive.  Like every other hub I have, I immediately connected the hub to the software to make sure its firmware was up to date, both to ensure it worked with the current software version and also to make sure it was updated in the case that it becomes impossible after the software is discontinued.  Then it asked to update the motors.  I can understand calibrating the zero point on the shaft rotation, but what does "Updating the motors" actually imply?  Two of the motors completed the process within a few seconds, but the other two took significantly longer.  What was the difference?  They were all bought brand new at the same time directly from the LEGO Store.  Do these motors actually have an updateable firmware inside them?  Does this process have any effect on compatibility with other hubs and software, updated or not?  This also only affected the gray motors, as the one motor I have which is color-matched to the hub was ignored by the update process.

  I don't like when software performs operations that don't fully explain themselves.  Is the update check and download performed entirely locally to your computer, or does it have to check a remote server over the internet every time?  Will this process continue to work in the future after the software is discontinued if I buy additional hubs/motors on the secondhand market?  LEGO seems to be implying that this hub and motor will be completely abandoned in software/firmware support, even though they have indicated that everything else in the Powered Up ecosystem will eventually be migrated to the Powered Up app.  I guess we will only learn the hard way if this becomes true by their actions rather than any formal public statements, but it would be nice to have an open line of communication about this.   This is an awfully expensive piece of hardware to end up possibly being 'bricked'.  There's nothing stopping them from dropping support for any other hardware either, before Powered Up reaches its final state.  (I know about PyBricks, but unless it will allow duplicating the original programs and functions without going to coding school, I'm not very interested.  The "Remote BlaBla" project however is quite intriguing to me, and hopefully full/near-full function can be extended to the Mindstorms hub.)

  I tried to ask LEGO Support the simple question if replacement batteries were available and orderable for this hub, and if not if the battery for the Spike Large Hub would be a drop-in replacement (I assume "Yes"), and if it was available to order as a fallback.  Eventually these batteries will fail, possibly ballooning too and ruining even the battery casing in the process, so it would have been nice to know what their commitment was to replacements.  LEGO refused to directly answer my questions, instead dancing around them and suggesting if I had a defective battery then I could ship it back to them and they would inspect and test it before considering supplying another one as a sort of warrantee replacement.  The new Spike Small Hub has separate additional batteries available openly for purchase on the LEGO Store, but for the two large hubs nothing and no honest answer.  Apparently if I want an extra battery even just for additional run time, my only option is to buy a complete new hub for a small fortune.  (The resale market is of little help, as postal regulations prevent most methods of shipping lithium batteries from most other countries to Canada unless perhaps you have some kind of business import registration.  Oddly, I can get almost anything shipped from China without issue, but nearly anywhere else gets stonewall blocked by Customs.)

  If anyone has any concrete answers to anything I've been rambling on about here, it would be greatly appreciated.

[barberminged]

1 hour ago, UltraViolet said:

  I tried to ask LEGO Support the simple question if replacement batteries were available and orderable for this hub, and if not if the battery for the Spike Large Hub would be a drop-in replacement (I assume "Yes"), and if it was available to order as a fallback.  Eventually these batteries will fail, possibly ballooning too and ruining even the battery casing in the process, so it would have been nice to know what their commitment was to replacements.  LEGO refused to directly answer my questions, instead dancing around them and suggesting if I had a defective battery then I could ship it back to them and they would inspect and test it before considering supplying another one as a sort of warrantee replacement.  The new Spike Small Hub has separate additional batteries available openly for purchase on the LEGO Store, but for the two large hubs nothing and no honest answer.  Apparently if I want an extra battery even just for additional run time, my only option is to buy a complete new hub for a small fortune.  (The resale market is of little help, as postal regulations prevent most methods of shipping lithium batteries from most other countries to Canada unless perhaps you have some kind of business import registration.  Oddly, I can get almost anything shipped from China without issue, but nearly anywhere else gets stonewall blocked by Customs.)

The hubs are identical, except for the color of the plastic, so you should be able to use the battery from Spike Prime with the hub from Mindstorms Robot Inventor, if you can get your hands on it.
Lego doesnt sell the large battery seperately on their website for some countries (not sure if thats a global thing, or just some countries?), but at least here in Denmark, its avaiable via shops that sell LEGO Education stuff as a seperate item.. :)

[DrJB]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:05 PM, steyin said:

Seymour Papert is rolling in his grave.

RIP Mindstorms.

Another MIT genius ... brings back wonderful memories of 77 Mass Ave ... :(

or, as we all called it while there ... IHTFP .. which stands for "I Hate This F%$#ing Place" 

[UltraViolet]

10 hours ago, barberminged said:

The hubs are identical, except for the color of the plastic, so you should be able to use the battery from Spike Prime with the hub from Mindstorms Robot Inventor, if you can get your hands on it.
Lego doesnt sell the large battery seperately on their website for some countries (not sure if thats a global thing, or just some countries?), but at least here in Denmark, its avaiable via shops that sell LEGO Education stuff as a seperate item.. :)

  Thank-you for the suggestion about the education market dealers.  This was very helpful to point me in the right direction.  I have found a couple online stores based within about an hours' driving distance from where I live who carry the Spike battery.  They also carry a lot of the other Spike Prime series parts individually.  Additionally, there are many other item categories unrelated to LEGO they carry which also may be of use to me in my other hobbies, so big plus there.  In case anyone in Canada is interested, they are http://spectrumed.ca and http://studica.ca - Studica even sells a large selection of CNC machines!

[gyenesvi]

On 11/29/2022 at 5:39 PM, UltraViolet said:

I can understand calibrating the zero point on the shaft rotation, but what does "Updating the motors" actually imply?

What makes you think that "updating the motors" and "calibrating the zero point" are two different things? I actually thought updating just means calibrating the zero point.

When I bought the set and built the official models, I realized that one of the motors was quite visibly off center (3-4 degrees). I wrote to Lego customer support about it, they asked me to take a video about the faulty motor, and after confirmation they said they'd send a new one, and I don't have to send them back the faulty one. In the meantime, I was informed that there's this update thing in the app, and tried it and it fixed the calibration of the faulty motor. At the same time I received the new one as well, so now I have 5 correctly working ones :)

[BatteryPoweredBricks]

4 minutes ago, gyenesvi said:

What makes you think that "updating the motors" and "calibrating the zero point" are two different things? I actually thought updating just means calibrating the zero point.

For me it was the fact that one or two motors took substantially longer than the other 2 when I recently had to do this.  Like 2 were already up to date and just needed calibration.  These days I wouldn't expect to buy a toothbrush without having to update firmware

[msk6003]

5 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

What makes you think that "updating the motors" and "calibrating the zero point" are two different things? I actually thought updating just means calibrating the zero point.

When I bought the set and built the official models, I realized that one of the motors was quite visibly off center (3-4 degrees). I wrote to Lego customer support about it, they asked me to take a video about the faulty motor, and after confirmation they said they'd send a new one, and I don't have to send them back the faulty one. In the meantime, I was informed that there's this update thing in the app, and tried it and it fixed the calibration of the faulty motor. At the same time I received the new one as well, so now I have 5 correctly working ones :)

But since the Spike app doesn't have a motor update feature, I doubt it's really necessary. If it's a must-have feature, why don't educational apps have it?

[UltraViolet]

  When the process was running on my four motors, all of them spent the same brief amount of time trying to fight against the required shaft locking device, but it was the time period following this when the motor was not trying to turn any more that was significantly longer for two of them to reach the end of the progress bar.  I would really like to know exactly what it was doing during this phase and what communication is actually taking place with the hub.  Is this process unique to this hub and these gray motors, considering the above mention that the Spike app never does it at all?  The motor update screen won't acknowledge the presence of anything but the regular gray motors.  I wish more of the tech info was properly documented.

  By the way, I just received a spare yellow battery, and yes, it is identical to the original Mindstorms hub battery in every way, right down to all of the text printed on it.  It is relieving to know I have options now.  This also means I wouldn't be quite so concerned about opening one battery to rebuild it should it fail.