The Old West Train Station.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

Hello,

I came back on LEGO Ideas with our new project. I am presenting it here and hope that you can bring us some votes.
Thank you as usual. Really. They may seem empty words, but they actually mean much to me.

LINK FOR VOTING! https://ideas.lego.com/projects/ebb5051c-2dd5-49d2-a4a5-39f1a6b1a554

PS: We are experiencing problems with the two native americans minifigures. Though we put them here to represent inclusivity, people isn't reacting the way we expected. So we will remove them in a future update. I hope people will be pleased by that.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Shiva]

Was it the now deleted user that did not like it?

Atleast I have not seen any other comments on ideas, that could have been negative?

[Itaria No Shintaku]

32 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Was it the now deleted user that did not like it?

Atleast I have not seen any other comments on ideas, that could have been negative?

Yes, but not only on ideas. Alas, on reddit and Facebook where it was poste, though they liked the build, they disliked the native americans representation. :(

[SirBlake]

Beautiful design and I really love the colors. Nice work on this.

You may enjoy this bit of history, but the town I'm in (Benbrook, Texas) had a station like this that dates back to the 1870's. We also had Wichita, Comanche, Caddo and Apache tribes of Native Americans in the area. It's a shame that in some people's effort to scrub history with political correctness, they're wiping out representation of real people in the process. That's a debate for another thread though. Good luck! I'm supporter 1592.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

3 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

Beautiful design and I really love the colors. Nice work on this.

You may enjoy this bit of history, but the town I'm in (Benbrook, Texas) had a station like this that dates back to the 1870's. We also had Wichita, Comanche, Caddo and Apache tribes of Native Americans in the area. It's a shame that in some people's effort to scrub history with political correctness, they're wiping out representation of real people in the process. That's a debate for another thread though. Good luck! I'm supporter 1592.

Yes, I studied some history before publishing the project. And yes, my intentions were the best. Thanks for your support, thanks for sharing your background, they both mean a lot to me.

[koalayummies]

You chose to call your Native American caricature figure "barbarian".

[SirBlake]

4 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

You chose to call your Native American caricature figure "barbarian".

He's also translating this stuff from Italian. Sheesh.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

1 minute ago, koalayummies said:

You chose to call your Native American caricature figure "barbarian".

Her real name is Barbara. Barbara in italian means Barbarian in english. When it was translated, there was also an error in translation and "Barbara" was translated into "Barbarian". These things may happen, an edit has already been done but it takes 22 days because  you can do only 1 per month and we pushed the project 9 days ago.

So I did not chose anything.

Seems that years pass but you still seem able to speak without knowing the facts.

8 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

He's also translating this stuff from Italian. Sheesh.

Yes but this guy keeps on following me because they love to attack me. I did something I really needed to do years ago. I blocked them.

[SirBlake]

13 minutes ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Yes but this guy keeps on following me because they love to attack me.

I can't imagine why. I've seen you around for years too, and have only seen you bring value and a thoughtful approach to the forums. Weird.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

Just now, SirBlake said:

I can't imagine why. I've seen you around for years too, and have only seen you bring value and a thoughtful approach to the forums. Weird.

I can't either, but that's it. Thanks for your kind words.

[koalayummies]

Even using google translate, notoriously bad for accurate translations, doesn't make that mistake. But given the benefit of the doubt if it was a translation error then a correction would be in order, but it's still there.

"The term originates from the Greek: βάρβαρος (barbaros pl. βάρβαροι barbaroi). In Ancient Greece, the Greeks used the term not only towards those who did not speak Greek and follow classical Greek customs, but also towards Greek populations on the fringe of the Greek world with peculiar dialects. In Ancient Rome, the Romans adapted and used the term towards tribal non-Romans such as the Berbers, Germanics, Celts, Iberians, Thracians, Illyrians, and Sarmatians. In the early modern period and sometimes later, the Byzantine Greeks used it for the Turks in a clearly pejorative manner." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

And still all the other comments about why they're even included have yet to be answered. One was responded to as "thanks for the feedback" and yet left in.

Edited August 16, 2022 by koalayummies

[SirBlake]

37 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Even using google translate, notoriously bad for accurate translations, doesn't make that mistake. But given the benefit of the doubt if it was a translation error then a correction would be in order, but it's still there.

"The term originates from the Greek: βάρβαρος (barbaros pl. βάρβαροι barbaroi). In Ancient Greece, the Greeks used the term not only towards those who did not speak Greek and follow classical Greek customs, but also towards Greek populations on the fringe of the Greek world with peculiar dialects. In Ancient Rome, the Romans adapted and used the term towards tribal non-Romans such as the Berbers, Germanics, Celts, Iberians, Thracians, Illyrians, and Sarmatians. In the early modern period and sometimes later, the Byzantine Greeks used it for the Turks in a clearly pejorative manner." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian

And still all the other comments about why they're even included have yet to be answered. One was responded to as "thanks for the feedback" and yet left in.

So is your position that this is all a veiled attempt for Itaria to spread some sort of racial or cultural insensitivity? I’m not buying it. 

I don’t know where in the US you hail from, friend, but around these parts, Native Americans are part of the culture, and excluding them from representation is not a solution. It’s a knee-jerk reaction from guilt that does nothing to honor the past (brutal as it often was) or the present people.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

3 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

So is your position that this is all a veiled attempt for Itaria to spread some sort of racial or cultural insensitivity? I’m not buying it. 

I don’t know where in the US you hail from, friend, but around these parts, Native Americans are part of the culture, and excluding them from representation is not a solution. It’s a knee-jerk reaction from guilt that does nothing to honor the past (brutal as it often was) or the present people.

I didn't read koalayummies because I blocked them, but they are really offensive. 
I will remove the native americans because of people like them.

I have to wait 22 days, this is the time it really needs to apply the edit.

Too bad. I was trying to be inclusive. I'll stick with the "ok only white characters". 
At least nobody complained for the female sheriff. I was fearing this also.

Plus what I love about that guy it's that they speak without knowing. On LEGO Ideas you can edit your project once per month so if you make a mistake, like I did, I still have to wait a month. Now 22 days remaining. But that's Koalayummies for you. If there's someone speaking without knowing the subject, they are.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Clone OPatra]

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

And still all the other comments about why they're even included have yet to be answered. One was responded to as "thanks for the feedback" and yet left in.

Which all? I just scrolled all the comments on the Ideas project and there was no other one, unless it was that one that was deleted.

Yes, the figure shouldn't have been labelled barbarian, translation error or not.

Otherwise I see only benefit to their inclusion, but even for people who might not it sucks that internet kneejerk attack culture might overrun a good-looking project that very obviously intends no harm. Please don't bring that to Eurobricks either.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

1 minute ago, Clone OPatra said:

Which all? I just scrolled all the comments on the Ideas project and there was no other one, unless it was that one that was deleted.

Yes, the figure shouldn't have been labelled barbarian, translation error or not.

Otherwise I see only benefit to their inclusion, but even for people who might not it sucks that internet kneejerk attack culture might overrun a good-looking project that very obviously intends no harm. Please don't bring that to Eurobricks either.

The two characters represent a couple of AFOLs we know. They are Alfonso and Barbara. So they were Sitting Alf (for Alfonso, mimic for Sitting Bull) and Tum Tum Barb which became, for an error Tum Tum Barbarian (since her surname begins for Tum and we liked the sound of it). We already removed those minifigures from the project. Alf will become a train driver, and Barb will become a child to pair the male one. 

Our main goal was inclusion.

This is why we chose on purpose a female sheriff and we said that the two native americans were "respected musicians". But that's ok. We don't know, from Italy, how it is perceived in the US, we will stick with something less "dangerous".

Thanks for understanding our goal, though.

[Clone OPatra]

10 minutes ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

The two characters represent a couple of AFOLs we know. They are Alfonso and Barbara. So they were Sitting Alf (for Alfonso, mimic for Sitting Bull) and Tum Tum Barb which became, for an error Tum Tum Barbarian (since her surname begins for Tum and we liked the sound of it). We already removed those minifigures from the project. Alf will become a train driver, and Barb will become a child to pair the male one. 

I understand it was error, but unfortunately it was a significant one because calling a Native American person a "barbarian" is absolutely not ok. That plays into the antiquated notion that all First Peoples were savages and that that somehow made it ok to wipe out them and their culture.

That naming error alone would have made people respond negatively regardless of the actual figures and setting you presented. One small word, but huge terrible history.

Anyway, it is what it is now. Personally I don't think you needed to take them out, just rename them appropriately (a play on a Native American name is also toe-ing or crossing the line into insensitive territory FYI).

[Itaria No Shintaku]

6 hours ago, Clone OPatra said:

I understand it was error, but unfortunately it was a significant one because calling a Native American person a "barbarian" is absolutely not ok. That plays into the antiquated notion that all First Peoples were savages and that that somehow made it ok to wipe out them and their culture.

That naming error alone would have made people respond negatively regardless of the actual figures and setting you presented. One small word, but huge terrible history.

Anyway, it is what it is now. Personally I don't think you needed to take them out, just rename them appropriately (a play on a Native American name is also toe-ing or crossing the line into insensitive territory FYI).

Koalayummies reported the project and it was cancelled.

1650 votes wasted.

I need to restart from zero.

THANKS KOALAYUMMIES

It does not take 5 minutes to get 1650 votes on a project on LEGO Ideas. It takes a lot of time, effort, passion, and all why? Because there was a translation error that was already fixed, an edit was already sent...

Being evil is fine if you are a dictator or something. If you are a member on eurobricks this is unacceptable.

Now you understand why I left the forum years ago. If members like him are allowed to do evil things to other people, well what's the point in contributing to the community? When I left the forum, many people wrote me that they were a toxic person and I needed just to block them. I wish I heard them before.

I will restart from zero, but from today on I will live my LEGO passion with a little bit of sadness.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Clone OPatra]

Surely there's a mechanism to appeal being removed if someone reports you...

[Itaria No Shintaku]

9 minutes ago, Clone OPatra said:

Surely there's a mechanism to appeal being removed if someone reports you...

Yesterday Koalayummies wrote that.
Today the project is removed.

1+1 = 2.

I will restart from zero because I'm resilient by nature.
But I do not forget, and I am harmed. 

What makes me sad is that this is an error I acknowledged and was already corrected (I can attach proof if needed) but both LEGO and Koalayummies just didn't care. I can understand TLG. They need to protect themselves. But Koalayummies? Why did they need to report my project if they know I am not a racist person and I explained? 

I can also attach the conversation I held with Barbara Tum*** to prove my point if needed, in which I tell her "Hey! You are a minifigure in a LEGO Ideas project now". I can give all proofs required to show I'm no racist. But even if I do, I need to restart from zero.

I ask the mods to close this topic and allow me to post the new one as soon as LEGO approves it.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Robert8]

Good luck with the project Itaria!

I'd say, remove the native americans anyway. I've got the feeling TLG would remove them if the project passes the review. 

If one wants to include them, well the CMF native americans are a couple of clicks aways over Bricklink.... 

[Clone OPatra]

Yes let's lock this now.