Itaria No Shintaku Posted August 16, 2022 Hello everyone. this will be a long post, I'm trying to summarize the LEGO castle lore, alliances and enemies, because I'm planning to make a videogame out of it and it will use a lot of castle lore. So, with a basical rule in mind LEGO not always thought about a lore behind the sets, they simply published them without giving too much importance to the story, and that I will too make a lot of personal assumptions, let's dive in. Lego castle pre 1984. These seems like HOUSES beneath a single kingdom. They must be somewhat related to the LION Knights because they are present in 10305. So I will assume that they are friendly with faction A. The first and the second are seen jousting. If they are jousting, I doubt they are this much enemies. I will assume they are again all houses from the same kingdom. FACTION A: All old classic castle, as different houses. GOLDEN AGE Lion Knights, Forestmen, and Black Falcons, Dragon Knights, Black Knights, Wolfpack, Royal Knights, Fright Knights Lion Knights seem the good guys to me. I always thought them this way. And they are in Faction A, as we saw in 10305. Black Falcons are seen just in ONE SET fighting against Lion Knights. But they seem to be related to the same realm/kingdom. And in 10305 they said their rivalry is over. I've always seen them as frenemies with Lion Knights. In the guarded inn, a lion Knight defends it, but a Black Falcon shield is in it. So I will put them in Faction A. Forestmen are always against everyone. They think to do good deeds. But they will steal from anyone. So I will put them in NEUTRAL. Dragon Knights are surely enemies of the Black Knights and they are seen fighting against Royal Knights. In will put them in a new faction: faction B Black Knights are seen fighting against Dragon Knights and Lion Knights (as a strong replacement for Black Falcons). They may be in peace with the latest because in one set the two figures are together and they don't seem to be enemies. Take this with a grain of salt, but I will put them in faction A again and I'll explain why, but I'm ready to stand corrected. I think the Black Knights live in the same kingdom as the all of the other ones and they don't like the ROYAL Knights much (see later). Perhaps, the old King was from the black Knights (The Black Monarch ) and now it's someone from the "Lion" Knights and they don't like this. But, it seems they have not the power to overcome the actual King, so they stay under his kingdom, not too happy to. Royal Knights to me are the knights of the King. Lion Knights (it's a Lion afterall) must be somewhat allied or something like that. They are against DRAGON Knights and FRIGHT Knights. So I will put them again in faction A. Wolfpack are neutral renegades, like forestmen, but they don't care to do any good. Fright Knights are in faction C. A new faction. They are surely against the Dragon Knights, but they're not good guys. They're clearly evil and I will create a new faction for them. FACTION A All old classic castle, as different houses, Black Falcons and Lion Knights, Black Knights and Royal Knights. FACTION B Dragon Knights. FACTION C Fright Knights NEUTRAL Forestmen, Wolfpack DARK AGE: Knights Kingdom 1 & 2 King Leo is surely a descendant of the ROYAL Knights. So again, faction A. Cedric the Bull, to me, is from some sort of different Kingdom. So I will put them in Faction D All the KK2 good faction, since there is again a crowned Lion, are to me in faction A. Vladek and his merry friends may be both allied with the Fright Knights or with Cedric the Bull. There is actually no actual point of contact. I'm forced to put them in faction E, but if you have some sort of relevant connection, please tell me. FACTION A All old classic castle, as different houses, Black Falcons and Lion Knights, Black Knights and Royal Knights, King Leo and King Matias. FACTION B Dragon Knights. FACTION C Fright Knights FACTION D Cedric the Bull FACTION E Lord Vladek NEUTRAL Forestmen, Wolfpack SILVER AGE: Fantasy Era, Kingdoms, Castle (2013) In my opionion the undead are there only because of the evil sorcerer. Since the Crown Knights are fighting both them and the troll warriors, maybe they are allied? Faction F Both them and the undead want to get rid of the crown Knights. So, to me it's FACTION F These are clearly the good guys. But I see no relevant connection to the Royal Knights. I will put them in faction G. To me this story revolves somewhere else, not in the realm we knew. Clearly the dwarves are allied with the Crown Knights. Faction G. Ok, in my opinion, these are Lion Knights again. They are even seen jousting with someone that is clearly a revived Black Falcon in the 10223 Kingdom Joust. So Faction A. Instead these are not Dragon Knights. There is no magician, no dragon, they look a lot like the old BLACK Knights instead. Here, btw, I think that TLG did not bother to create a true story. So faction H for me. These guys from 2013 are clearly Royal Knights to me. So again faction A. These guys, instead, remember a lot the enemies from fantasy era. They have an evil wizard too. If I could say anything, it's like as if the old Dragon Knights became bad guys. But I won't go on, to me it's faction I. FACTION A All old classic castle, as different houses, Black Falcons and Lion Knights, Black Knights and Royal Knights, King Leo and King Matias, 2011 Lion Knights, 2013 Royal Knights FACTION B Dragon Knights. FACTION C Fright Knights FACTION D Cedric the Bull FACTION E Lord Vladek FACTION F Undead and Troll Warriors FACTION G Crown Knights FACTION H 2011 Dragon Knights FACTION I 2013 Dragon Knights FACTION NEUTRAL Forestmen, Wolfpack SOME MORE These are the insignia of the Evil Knight and Frightening Knight. Now, there is no doubt that the Frightening Knight should somehow join the FRIGHT KNIGHTS, but the colors are totally not related, they look more like the colors of the 2011 Dragon Knights. So I can't really say. This instead is the tournament knight. This is some house insignia of some sort. Since I want to do a possibily accurate work, I am welcome and open to any change or suggestion to the above. Thanks for reading. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SirBlake Posted August 16, 2022 You clearly put a lot of thought into this, and as you say, TLG didn’t really put much into the lore surrounding castle themes, especially with classic castle, so I think you have a lot of freedom to make it what you want it to be. I personally see this as a feature rather than a bug. For my part, I don’t see a canonical situation where all factions exist simultaneously. I see them as generational, much in the way that they were rolled out. For example, I see the Kingdoms lions and dragons as an evolution of the 80’s factions. Not separated by region or people, but by time. Perhaps the Kingdoms lions were populated by the great grandchildren of the folks that built 6080. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Itaria No Shintaku Posted August 16, 2022 37 minutes ago, SirBlake said: You clearly put a lot of thought into this, and as you say, TLG didn’t really put much into the lore surrounding castle themes, especially with classic castle, so I think you have a lot of freedom to make it what you want it to be. I personally see this as a feature rather than a bug. For my part, I don’t see a canonical situation where all factions exist simultaneously. I see them as generational, much in the way that they were rolled out. For example, I see the Kingdoms lions and dragons as an evolution of the 80’s factions. Not separated by region or people, but by time. Perhaps the Kingdoms lions were populated by the great grandchildren of the folks that built 6080. That is correct in my view also. Like King Leo is descendant of the Royal Knights Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted August 16, 2022 Impressive job trying to wrangle all the Castle lore into one storyline! I've had some recent observations with the recent wave of nostalgia that seem relevant here. I agree with your idea that several of the "factions" are in fact houses of a single kingdom. Along those lines, I've noticed that in some eras the lion knights image heraldry has a crown, and in some eras it does not. That has led me to believe that Crownies are another house aligned with Lions. Note that crownies use blue, and lions without crowns use red, but lions with crowns use either color. Perhaps the color choice of any given era reflects which house holds the throne at that time? Dragon Knights clearly evolved from Black Knights. I always imagined that as Majisto became more powerful, he took control of the faction, and broke with any alliance there might have been with the Lions. The later dragon knight of the Kingdoms era (and later "Castle" era) I assume to be a continuation of the old Dragon Knights in some fashion. As for the Black Falcons, I always thought of them as a house outside of the Lion knights kingdom, sometimes at odds with them, sometimes friendly, but never part of the kingdom. A neighboring independent barony of some sort, perhaps, and as such their own faction. I'm interested to see what other feedback you get and how you flesh this out! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
natesroom Posted August 16, 2022 (edited) You are missing the most important faction of all - the axemen (crusaders) Even though there is some possible link that Lion Knights and Crusaders were part of the same faction, i always played it as if it was a Brother of the king faction splitting the kingdom in some ways against the lion knights. I had alot more axemen and black falcons then any other faction so i actually played them as good guys and the lion knights were a tyrant style kingdom. I played the Royal knights as an evolved kingdom of lion knights maybe 100 years in difference, though technically i never played with them together. Edited August 16, 2022 by natesroom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Triceron Posted August 18, 2022 Lego lore is gonna be a huge rabbit hole to go down. It's very messy because back in the 80's-90's, each region localized the names of sets and factions differently, and most came up with their own lore. So the sets I had in Canada would have different names from sets that I purchased in the US, and apparantly that's all different from ones in the UK, and in Germany, etc etc And since each region had their own promotional material like magazines, you'd have different origin stories or comics for different factions and characters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hermes Mocs Posted August 18, 2022 On 1/24/2021 at 3:45 AM, Hermes Mocs said: FYI, there are two German audio-plays released in the 1990's that featured both Dragon Masters/Knights and Black Knights as well as Wolfpack and Royal Knights. As those were official LEGO products in Germany, I consider them canonic. The first one is called "Hokuspokus Zauberstab", which translates into "Hocus-Pocus Magic Wand": https://youtu.be/toawPpmUvDA The second one is called "Der Sohn des Königs" -> "The King's Son": https://youtu.be/It64mOIoYgw In the first audio-play we learn that both Dragon Knights and Black Knights live in a country called Tarenta and that they are loyal to the same king, who, as we learn in the second audio-play, does not live in Tarenta itself, as Tarenta seems to be some kind of a periphery region, plagued by robbers like Wolfpack and that was home to a lot of dragons in the past. Although loyal to the same king, former best friends Sir Francis and Sir Peter, leaders of the Dragon Knights and Black Knights respectively, are holding a personal grudge for reasons that are not disclosed. However, it does not seem as if any warfare has taken place between the two factions. The Dragon Knights are also the keepers of the King's treasure. The great wizard Cerlin (= Majisto) and his dragon Dragomil protect the treasure at all costs, hiding it beneath the dragon's den inside the Dragon Knights' castle. In the first audio-play a Black Knights traitor plans to infiltrate the Dragon Knights' castle and steal the treasure with the help of the Wolfpack faction. Doing so is prevented by Sir Francis' daughter Rusty, the wizard's apprentice Five and the Wolfpack leader's foundling son Dickens. In the end Dragomil convicts the traitor by using the magic wand and Sir Francis and Sir Peter make up their controversy. In the second audio-play an old and dying Royal Knights traitor confesses to King Richard that the once abducted infant Prince Henry might still be alive in Tarenta. The king leaves his homeland for Tarenta with a small fellowship but soon is abducted by some of his companion Royal Knights claiming the vacant throne. Two of the Royal Knights traitors however care more about the treasure than the throne and sneak their way into the Dragon Knights' castle. Again Dragomil and Cerlin save the day. With the help of an old Black Knights librarian, Sir Francis' daughter Rusty, the wizard's apprentice Five and the Wolfpack leader's foundling son Dickens find the ruins the king is held hostage in and save him with the help of Dragomil. King Richard discovers he and Dickens share the same specific mole on their hands and he concludes that Dickens is his long lost son Henry. We don't learn if they return to their homeland, but as the "kingnappers" are defeated, it seems probable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TalonCard Posted August 30, 2022 One of the things that intrigues me about the official Castle lore so far is the Classic King and Queen bios (back when they did official bios for each of the collectable minifigures): Quote “We may be small now, but one day we shall be a legend!” The Classic King’s kingdom is just getting started. He doesn’t have much land or treasure yet, or even his own little village to rule, but he’s already recruited fourteen brave and loyal knights, and by working together they have constructed a fine golden castle. It has battlements and a flag and a drawbridge and everything! Creating a brand-new kingdom isn’t easy, but the Classic King is full of big ideas. He imagines that one day, the world will be full of castles and fortresses and inns and forests. There may even be horses for his knights to ride…though for right now, they’ll have to build their own! Quote "Let us get with the times!” The Queen comes from a slightly larger kingdom than the Classic King, and as such she wonders if it wouldn’t be a good idea to be a little less old-fashioned and a little more up-to-date. There are all sorts of modern conveniences that could help to improve their golden castle, like one-piece portcullis gates and base plates with built-in dungeons and walls with lovely stone-and-ivy patterns. Between the King’s big ideas and the Queen’s grand vision, their united lands are moving swiftly toward the future. New armor! New horses! New taverns and towers! In fact, the kingdom is growing so vast and successful that they’re starting to think about splitting it in two and giving half to each of their royal children. Surely that can’t lead to any trouble, can it? There are a couple of different ways to interpret this, but it sure seems like the implication is that the Classic King established a small kingdom with the 375 Yellow Castle. Marrying the Classic Queen meant unification with a larger, more modern kingdom, resulting in the style of the classic castle world of the 80s. Presumably the split between their two children resulted in the two rival/warring houses of the Black Falcons and the Lion Knights. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aanchir Posted August 30, 2022 On 8/17/2022 at 9:09 PM, Triceron said: Lego lore is gonna be a huge rabbit hole to go down. It's very messy because back in the 80's-90's, each region localized the names of sets and factions differently, and most came up with their own lore. So the sets I had in Canada would have different names from sets that I purchased in the US, and apparantly that's all different from ones in the UK, and in Germany, etc etc Yep, this sort of stuff definitely varied a lot from country to country. If it's any help, I've been translating a number of old LEGO Magazine stories from "De LEGO Krant" (the first LEGO magazine/newsletter, published in the Netherlands) as well as other old print media of the 70s, 80s, and 90s. You can see what I've found in this document. Mind you, I'm not fluent in Dutch (or really in any of the languages I've been translating stuff from), so there may be errors. I also have a spreadsheet of different countries' character, set, and faction names which may be of interest. The Black Falcons were certainly pretty consistently established as rivals/adversaries to the Lion Knights in most countries' media that I've found, at least in their early years when those were the only two knight factions. "De LEGO Krant" issue 27 from Spring 1984 establishes Ridder Pieter van Blankevoort (Sir Peter Whiteford), the lord of Slot "Wittenburg" ("Whitemount" Castle/set 6080), and Ridder Jan Swartegeest (Sir John Blackghost), the lord of Kasteel "Donkervoort" ("Darkford" Castle/set 6073) as bitter enemies. The same is true in the 1984 and 1985 issues of Bricks & Pieces Magazine from the UK, in which the leaders of the Lion Knights and Black Falcons are named Sir Richard and The Black Knight, respectively. Generally, the Black Falcons seem to be characterized as "bad guys" in these magazine stories and blurbs, utilizing trickery and black magic to gain the upper hand. But the Lion Knights are still willing to compete in tournaments against them in accordance with social customs, and during these tournaments the Black Falcons seem to at least to put up an appearance of fair play, even if they're still scheming behind the scenes. There is also a series of single-page Castle comics that ran as ads in various kids' magazines and comics throughout Europe from 1985–1987. Several of the Swedish ones can be found in this Brickshelf folder. In these comics, the Black Knight and Sir Richard (or their equivalent in the local language) begin as rivals, with the former stealing treasure from the latter's castle, and the latter setting out to get it back. However, after Sir Richard defeats the Black Knight in a duel, they both end up double-crossed by a maiden who is secretly a wicked witch, who steals the treasure from both of them. The two rivals then join forces for the remainder of their appearances together. That said, these comics noticeably fudge a lot of details from the sets themselves. The minifig designs used for the main characters do not match any of their actual set appearances, and in two later comics the two former rivals are captured by ANOTHER group of knights that ALSO use Black Falcon designs (presumably because there were still only two factions appearing in sets at that point in time). Also, interestingly enough, there's also a lot of stuff in various countries that implies that the leader of the Royal Knights (King Richard Lionheart) and the leader of the Black Knights (The Black Knight) are literally just the Lion Knight and Black Falcon leaders later in their respective lives! Not only do they share the same names in many countries' catalogs and media, but the Spring 1988 issue of Bricks & Pieces Magazine expressly identifies the head knight from set 6085 as the same Black Knight character who was previously established — to the point of giving him a Black Falcon shield instead of a Black Knight shield in the accompanying photo! And indeed, the minifigure in question is identical to the head knight from set 6073 four years earlier. I'm still not sure quite how this gels with sets like 6059 that show Black Falcons doing battle with Black Knights. Was there perhaps some kind of schism within the Black Knight's ranks? Was he overthrown by a rival and forced to go find a different castle to lead with its own coat of arms? There's unfortunately not much that makes this clear — most comics and media I've found about the Black Knights from 1988–1990 focuses on their feud with the Forestmen rather than on their relationship to either of the previous knight factions. And by 1992 when more story blurbs about the Black Knights started showing up, the Black Falcons had largely stopped appearing in sets. My personal headcanon is that after the death of the Black Monarch, the Black Knight inherited his title and domain, after which another potential heir — a sibling or cousin, perhaps — seized command of the Black Falcons out of jealousy. That said, the "Black Monarch" doesn't really exist as a character outside of North American set names. Other countries' set names and story blurbs don't really grant the ghost from 6034 any royal or noble status, nor do they suggest any ties between set 6085 and any sort of monarchy. In the UK, for example, 6085 is just "The Black Fortress" and 6034 is just "The Haunted Tower". The document I linked at the start of my post does include some blurbs from a 1992 Swedish catalog that go into a bit more detail about the relationship between the Lion Knights, Black Knights, and other factions competing with one another in the Valley of Tarenta (which was established as the name of the setting in the rules of this LEGO Castle board game, and subsequently in the German audio dramas). The Lion Knights apparently held power in the Valley of Tarenta even before the Black Knights arrived — in keeping with them appearing in sets earlier in real life — but the Black Knights outnumber the Lion Knights and seek to seize control of the land. Some of the Black Knights sets inspired by Viking ships suggest to me that they may originally come from from overseas. Your understanding of the Forestmen and Wolfpack seems spot-on, at least from what I've seen. Of note, Forestmen set descriptions and story media in some countries like the UK and Germany explicitly identifies them as Robin Hood and his Merry Men, with the same sort of "righteous outlaw" characterization associated with those characters, such as "stealing from the rich to give to the poor". By contrast, the Wolfpack are a much more ruthless bandit faction that steals for personal gain and will eagerly attack any outsiders. The Forestmen and Wolfpack also hail from different parts of the Valley of Tarenta, according to the aforementioned board game. The Forestmen naturally hide out in the woods, while the Wolf People operate out of the swampy lowlands. The Dragon Knights/Dragon Masters have indeed been shown fighting with both the Black Knights and Royal Knights in various marketing materials, though as mentioned above, the German audio dramas suggest the Dragon Knights and Black Knights are not really at war, but merely have a tense rivalry that occasionally spills over into violence, and both are ruled by King Richard and his Royal Knights. Of note, back in 1992, some of the characters and story elements from these audio dramas were originally intended to appear in a series of Castle comics that LEGO never ended up going forward with. Development materials for those comics can be found here, and while there are some differences from the eventual audio dramas (such as some of the character names), they do give a little more insight into some of the faction leaders, their relationships, and their motivations. From these accounts, the Dragon Knight leader was originally meant to have aspirations of taking the throne — since this was before the Royal Knights existed as a faction, the intent at that point was for the King to already be dead with only one known heir, the missing prince. By the time of the audio dramas, the story had changed so that the king was still alive, and the three knight factions were at peace under his reign, with the only battles between them sparked by traitorous troublemakers who sought to disrupt the established order. A lot of other story media portrays the relationship between these factions a lot less amicably. In the US, the Dragon Knights were led not by one of their number, but by Majisto, who was presented as more of a villain than his recent appearance in the Lion Knights' Castle. A 1993 "Adventures of the LEGO Maniac" comic from the US portrays the Dragon Knights themselves as Black Knights who have been subjugated by Majisto, who commands two dragons and an arsenal of spells. And numerous 1995 and 1996 catalogs include short comics that shows the Dragon Knight leader either leading an attack against the Royal Knights' Castle (with Majisto's help) or infiltrating it to steal the king's treasure. Likewise, in the Max Timebuster comics from Klick magazine (English translations of which can be found here), Majisto/Merlin is portrayed as the villainous leader of the Dragon Knights, opposed by the heroic King Lionheart and his Royal Knights. The latter Fright Knights are obviously a gothic horror inspired faction, but I've never really seen any indication of them doing battle with any of the previously established factions — at most, they occasionally tend to abduct trespassers from other factions. I get the impression that they largely keep to themselves. I like to imagine that Majisto and his cousin Willa do not get along, but are not really enemies so much as spellcasters with different philosophies about magic and how it should be used. Also of note: in some portrayals, such as the U.S. LEGO Mania Magazine, Basil the Bat Lord and Willa the Witch are allies. Other portrayals, such as the European Time Cruisers comics and some European catalog blurbs present them as enemies. I prefer the US approach myself, since Willa is less interesting to me as a "lone wolf" with her own agenda than as a powerful ally to a larger faction. But this emphasis on internal conflict between Fright Knights characters is the main reason we don't have a very strong idea of the Fright Knights' relationship to previously established factions. 12 hours ago, TalonCard said: One of the things that intrigues me about the official Castle lore so far is the Classic King and Queen bios (back when they did official bios for each of the collectable minifigures): There are a couple of different ways to interpret this, but it sure seems like the implication is that the Classic King established a small kingdom with the 375 Yellow Castle. Marrying the Classic Queen meant unification with a larger, more modern kingdom, resulting in the style of the classic castle world of the 80s. Presumably the split between their two children resulted in the two rival/warring houses of the Black Falcons and the Lion Knights. Oh, I'd seen the Classic King's bio but hadn't seen the Classic Queen's before! I like that implication a LOT! And it also fits with how the first batch of Black Falcon and Lion Knight sets shared the same design language, varying only in their flags and coats-of-arms. I suspect that the practical intent behind that decision was to make it easier for kids to combine multiple sets however they liked, without worrying too much about what faction they were associated with originally — that way, all you had to do was switch out a few parts to turn a Black Falcon set into a Lion Knight one or vice-versa. But establishing the Lion Knights and Black Falcons as rival heirs to the same kingdom provides a very compelling in-universe explanation for those similarities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeoBrick Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) Quote #9 – Januari/Februari 1979 LEGO Ridderland 383 Riddertoernooi Nu kan het grote riddertoernooi beginnen. De koning en de mooie prinses zitten vol spanning te kijken wie er gaat winnen. En de twee wachters zorgen wel dat alles netjes verloopt. Zie je de paarden steigeren? 677 6 Ridders 6 Andere ridders hebben ondertussen in het grote bos een schat ontdekt! Wat zijn ze daar blij mee. Ze dansen en rollen over de grond van plezier. Maar ze moeten die schat maar snel veilig gaan wegbrengen, vind je ook niet? #8 – September/October 1978 #9 – January/February 1979 LEGO Knights’ Land 383 Knights’ Tournament Now the big knights’ tournament can begin. The king and the beautiful princess await with excitement to see who is going to win. And the two guards make quite sure that it all runs neatly. Do you see the horses rearing up? 677 6 Knights Meanwhile, 6 other knights have discovered a treasure in the big forest! How happy they are with that. They dance and roll on the ground with joy. But they ought to bring that treasure safely yet quickly away, don’t you think so? Aanchir, if you have use of a more correct translation, here's one. The text marked in red are the ones I changed. Edited August 30, 2022 by GeoBrick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
