Counterfeit minifigs (allegedly) on Bricklink?

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

According to a recent Bricklink forum thread, Bricklink sent out an e-mail recently to sellers saying that the "Bricklink Marketplace has recently been flooded with high-profile counterfeit Minifigures". Supposedly, these minifigs are "known to have been made using genuine LEGO elements with after-market (custom) printing". Here is the e-mail:

Quote

Dear BrickLink Seller,   We are sorry to inform you that the BrickLink Marketplace has recently been flooded with high-profile counterfeit Minifigures. These counterfeit Minifigures have in some cases been purchased from distributors on and outside of BrickLink. These are known to have been made using genuine LEGO elements with after-market (custom) printing. BrickLink has a zero tolerance policy [refer to sections 1 and 3] towards counterfeit items.   We are reaching out to you because we have seen several flagrant examples recently with very high numbers of items appearing in certain stores. Please report those listings when you notice them using this page.   Keeping the BrickLink Marketplace free from counterfeit elements is critical to maintain the reputation of BrickLink as a premier LEGO Marketplace.   As a Seller on BrickLink It is your responsibility to ensure that the items for sale in your store are original LEGO items.   In some cases the authenticity of an item can be difficult to determine, however the main things to look out for is the availability of a highly desirable LEGO Minifigure in hundreds or thousands from a single source as well as any discrepancy in the print.   If you have or suspect that you have these listed in your store, please remove them immediately as we will be taking action against stores selling these items now and ongoing. If the problem persists, we would have to consider further restrictions for listing Minifigures on the site. If you have recently sold counterfeit Minifigures we suggest you reach out to the buyer and offer to take the Minifigures back. We appreciate your understanding and collaboration.

Sincerely, The BrickLink Team

Disclaimer: This issue is not related to the Transparent and Glow-in-Dark Minifigures forum post.

 

 

Does anyone have more information about this? Is there actual evidence that the minifigs in question are not genuine? How would we actually know? This makes me worried about minifigs I might have purchased in the past. I guess I have always been aware that this was a possibility, but it's not good to hear about anyways.

If Bricklink's allegations are true, how can we possibly hope to identify counterfeit minifigs?

Edited to add original e-mail.

Edited August 3, 2022 by 1980-Something-Space-Guy

[Jack Sassy]

7 hours ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

If Bricklink's allegations are true, how can we possibly hope to identify counterfeit minifigs?

I don't have much of an experience with counterfeit minifigures, but I expect them to have some printing mistake that when compared with original minifigure, can be spotted.

[hsousa]

49 minutes ago, Jack Sassy said:

I don't have much of an experience with counterfeit minifigures, but I expect them to have some printing mistake that when compared with original minifigure, can be spotted.

Maybe a minifig's torso can be spotted, but the same maybe cannot be said about other LEGO parts. This is a post I've found today on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/860813204716046/?multi_permalinks=1205049046959125&hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen

(you may need to ask to be accepted in the group)

[MAB]

The full email is available for everyone to read on mail chimp.

https://mailchi.mp/eac856c8810e/counterfeit-minifigures-immediate-action-required

There have been probably fake parts for sale on bricklink in the past. As always, you should always check the seller's feedback and reputation and look at what else they currently sell. If they have 1000 of an expensive figure but no other stock, then beware. If they have 100 of an expensive figure but loads of other parts, or incomplete sets the figure came from, they are more likely to be legit. It is further complicated if the seller sells incomplete sets elsewhere or sell just the figures fast but keep back the parts or incomplete sets for some years before selling them.

Do bricklink think before they send the messages? They write "highly desirable LEGO Minifigure in hundreds or thousands from a single source" but the first figure they bring up to be aware of is sw0778, a cheap, common figure that has been around for some years in many sets including in the advent calendar and in a foil pack from a magazine. There are loads of those magazine foil packs that don't get sold with the magazine and so large numbers of them or the figures in them find their way to bricklink. The unique C-3PO in the UCS set is understandable, but not common Luke.

Edited August 3, 2022 by MAB

[Jack Sassy]

1 hour ago, hsousa said:

Maybe a minifig's torso can be spotted, but the same maybe cannot be said about other LEGO parts. This is a post I've found today on FB:

I don't use Facebook, therefore can't see it or ask for permission without creating a new account. 

 

By other LEGO parts you mean printed tiles and such?

[hsousa]

 

2 hours ago, Jack Sassy said:

I don't use Facebook, therefore can't see it or ask for permission without creating a new account. 

 

By other LEGO parts you mean printed tiles and such?

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by hsousa

[Jack Sassy]

20 minutes ago, hsousa said:

Well, that isn't rather nice (In my opinion), Classic LEGO having fakes like these just doesn't feel right to me. 

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

The full email is available for everyone to read on mail chimp.

https://mailchi.mp/eac856c8810e/counterfeit-minifigures-immediate-action-required

Thanks! I've added it to the main post.

[LegendaryArticuno]

I'm not sure how Lego could effectively police this. I guess they're tracking counterfeit reports, and if it reaches a certain threshold they'll probably buy one and verify themselves.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

There have been probably fake parts for sale on bricklink in the past. As always, you should always check the seller's feedback and reputation and look at what else they currently sell. If they have 1000 of an expensive figure but no other stock, then beware. If they have 100 of an expensive figure but loads of other parts, or incomplete sets the figure came from, they are more likely to be legit. It is further complicated if the seller sells incomplete sets elsewhere or sell just the figures fast but keep back the parts or incomplete sets for some years before selling them.

Do bricklink think before they send the messages? They write "highly desirable LEGO Minifigure in hundreds or thousands from a single source" but the first figure they bring up to be aware of is sw0778, a cheap, common figure that has been around for some years in many sets including in the advent calendar and in a foil pack from a magazine. There are loads of those magazine foil packs that don't get sold with the magazine and so large numbers of them or the figures in them find their way to bricklink. The unique C-3PO in the UCS set is understandable, but not common Luke.

Thanks for your insights. I am wishfully hoping that in the same way they were careless about listing sw0788 as an example, they were too quick to jump the gun on claiming these figures are counterfeit. What I do know is that, they have not yet communicated with buyers, who should be their priority. If they have evidence that some figures listed on Bricklink are counterfeit, they should alert the community and provide information so that people can identify these counterfeit figs. It would certainly be nice to hear from them and/or Lego themselves.

11 minutes ago, LegendaryArticuno said:

I'm not sure how Lego could effectively police this. I guess they're tracking counterfeit reports, and if it reaches a certain threshold they'll probably buy one and verify themselves.

I am not sure how much Lego has been involved in this process. If they were, I wish they would let us know.

[Joebot]

4 minutes ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

I am not sure how much Lego has been involved in this process. If they were, I wish they would let us know.

Lego owns Bricklink, so presumably they were involved to some degree.

It's a strange situation. I've been a Bricklink member for a long, long time, and this is the first time I can ever recall getting an email from them, so they must have thought it was important. The message is partly informational, to warn buyers and sellers, which makes sense. But it's also partly a threat to sellers who might be engaging in this behavior. What I'm wondering though -- as a seller, what is my obligation here? I've certainly never knowingly sold a counterfeit mini-figure. But what if I buy some bulk Lego collection off Cragislist, then sell the figures, and and later get accused by a buyer that a figure was counterfeit? I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to do, if anything, about this situation. 

[mvLego]

5 hours ago, MAB said:

Do bricklink think before they send the messages? They write "highly desirable LEGO Minifigure in hundreds or thousands from a single source" but the first figure they bring up to be aware of is sw0778, a cheap, common figure that has been around for some years in many sets including in the advent calendar and in a foil pack from a magazine.

My first thought was that they meant the Blue Milk Luke figure, which is identical to sw0778 except for the head print and milk carton.

[MAB]

1 minute ago, mvLego said:

My first thought was that they meant the Blue Milk Luke figure, which is identical to sw0778 except for the head print and milk carton.

This is the one from the UCS Landspeeder, and they wanted to flag up the C-3PO from that set. So I'm guessing they just put the two minifigures from the landspeeder set in the email.

There has been a lot in the BL forum recently about one seller (a $1M + store) that had lots of Joker figures and someone couldn't understand how they could have so many. The seller posted images of pallet loads of sets but he was still suspended by BL for weeks but is now allowed back, with the Jokers, but in a lower number. It could be that this all blew up from there.

 

[jodawill]

Brciklink should start including photos of the insides of parts along with measurements of things like the thickness of a torso's wall. For example, the 1980s Lion Knights torsos were 1.4mm thick, and the torsos in Benny's Space Squad are 0.9mm thick (which is why they crack so easily!). It would be difficult, albeit not impossible, for sellers to obtain period correct torsos for desirable minifigures. This would be an easy way to weed out many counterfeits.

Honestly, I'm really on the fence about the plume thing. It bothers me that it's a rare part to begin with. I wish Lego would just produce parts like that in bulk so people don't have to pay those ridiculous prices. I don't really blame people for using reproductions. I probably wouldn't do it myself just because I'm a purist. But it's such a small part that's easily lost - I wish Lego gave us the opportunity to by them by the hundreds so we can just forget about it and move on with our lives, not living under the stress of losing an expensive plume the size of a fingernail clipping.

The existence of reproductions don't bother me either. I don't buy Legos because of the exclusivity of it. I just enjoy the parts. I hate it when pieces are valuable because it adds unnecessary stress to my life to take extra good care of them. The only thing that bothers me is the prospect of sellers passing them off as legitimate. This obviously has to be nipped in the bud, and I think there need to be immediate and severe consequences for any seller that's knowingly deceiving their customers.

[MAB]

2 minutes ago, jodawill said:

Brciklink should start including photos of the insides of parts along with measurements of things like the thickness of a torso's wall. For example, the 1980s Lion Knights torsos were 1.4mm thick, and the torsos in Benny's Space Squad are 0.9mm thick (which is why they crack so easily!). It would be difficult, albeit not impossible, for sellers to obtain period correct torsos for desirable minifigures. This would be an easy way to weed out many counterfeits.

I doubt LEGO care too much about counterfeits of old figures that they no longer sell. The ones they seem to be targetting are modern figures from current sets.

[jodawill]

11 minutes ago, MAB said:

This is the one from the UCS Landspeeder, and they wanted to flag up the C-3PO from that set. So I'm guessing they just put the two minifigures from the landspeeder set in the email.

There has been a lot in the BL forum recently about one seller (a $1M + store) that had lots of Joker figures and someone couldn't understand how they could have so many. The seller posted images of pallet loads of sets but he was still suspended by BL for weeks but is now allowed back, with the Jokers, but in a lower number. It could be that this all blew up from there.

 

Right. Just the presence of a rare part in bulk isn't necessarily a red flag. There have been times I've bought something in bulk when it was available, then unloaded it a decade later when I was the only person who had them in large quantities. I recently bought 30 brand new bullet helmets from a seller who said he had about 1000 left that weren't added to his stock yet. I was suspicious, so I asked him how he got them. It turns out he had bought hundreds of the black falcons sets when they were rereleased and he's only just now getting around to selling these parts 20 years later. It does happen.

1 minute ago, MAB said:

I doubt LEGO care too much about counterfeits of old figures that they no longer sell. The ones they seem to be targetting are modern figures from current sets.

They might care because it could damage their brand if the counterfeits are inferior quality.

[koalayummies]

18 hours ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

Supposedly, these minifigs are "known to have been made using genuine LEGO elements with after-market (custom) printing".

Related discussion: TLG Ban Custom Minifig Printing.

18 hours ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

How would we actually know?

Scientific laboratory analysis of the Minifigure paint?

18 hours ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

This makes me worried about minifigs I might have purchased in the past.

Then sell them (on Craigslist, not Bricklink ).

Wasn't too long ago that some were completely distraught and inconsolable at TLG's announcement to acquire Bricklink. The more rational individuals however posited that ownership would simply allow for better control of the brand by prohibiting counterfeits, fakes and knockoffs from being sold on the site, just like this (as well as access to potentially lucrative user transaction data). Now they're cracking down on counterfeits, precisely as predicted, but consequentially has some doubting prior purchases as being tainted by the notion that they might not have genuine Lego paint. Guess the only consolation that they're taking action to put an end to non-genuine Lego on Bricklink.

18 hours ago, 1980-Something-Space-Guy said:

If Bricklink's allegations are true, how can we possibly hope to identify counterfeit minifigs?

Probably not the answer you want to hear but only getting sealed original packaging items is the surest way to know. Edit: which makes the Lego "speculators" very happy.

Edited August 3, 2022 by koalayummies

[AyeMatey]

Funny enough, I just asked about Deadpool heads in the Marvel thread and then saw this thread. A reputable seller has 20 heads but no other parts. I asked directly and they said they were real so I guess they are lol. This sucks having to navigate garbage like this.

[MAB]

8 hours ago, AyeMatey said:

Funny enough, I just asked about Deadpool heads in the Marvel thread and then saw this thread. A reputable seller has 20 heads but no other parts. I asked directly and they said they were real so I guess they are lol. This sucks having to navigate garbage like this.

There were 1000s of Deadpool heads that appeared on the market in about 2013/4 in the Far East, with no other body parts. They were bought up by many sellers worldwide and you are possibly looking at ones from that lot. Are they custom prints on LEGOparts? Are they stolen parts? Who knows. 

If you want to be sure of buying genuine, you are more likely to be successful if you buy a complete figure or better still a sealed set.

 

That said, if nobody can tell the difference, does it matter? That will be down to the individual.

[AyeMatey]

Thanks for the info.

[Sir Dano]

Is it really counterfeit if they're printed on genuine lego pieces?

 

On 8/3/2022 at 9:28 AM, hsousa said:

Maybe a minifig's torso can be spotted, but the same maybe cannot be said about other LEGO parts. This is a post I've found today on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/860813204716046/?multi_permalinks=1205049046959125&hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen

(you may need to ask to be accepted in the group)

It's actually really easy to spot bootleg dragon plumes, they're made of harder, glossier plastic than originals.

I bought a few to compare since the originals are so dang expensive.(original on the left)

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Sir Dano

[MAB]

2 hours ago, Sir Dano said:

Is it really counterfeit if they're printed on genuine lego pieces?

 

If LEGO hasn't printed it, then yes. Bricklink claims this us different the 'illegitimate ' figures issue, where some of LEGO's employees are making figures on LEGO machines. They are claiming that a customised is printing LEGO designs on to genuine parts.

[LEGO Historian]

Yes, since minifigures have become the "crown jewel" of many LEGO collectors (not all), there are a preponderance of fake minifigure parts, or real minifigure parts with fake aftermarket printing.  Just look at the Mr. Gold CMF of 2013... there were 5000 genuine figs produced, but because they sell for thousands, the number of fake Mr. Gold's outnumber real ones by 20 to 1 (at least).  Fake ones sell on Ebay, but are listed as fakes, mostly for $2 to $5 each.  Many of these (Chinese sourced) fakes even have a LEGO logo, but are fake elements.  What makes it bad is that fake Mr. Gold looks often nicer than the real Mr. Gold.  So with this item, one would be foolish to purchase one without the certificate identifying it as "xxxx of 5000".

Fake LEGO items have been around for at least 15 years, when someone made fake Maersk blue construction helmets (also sourced from China), which were only found in the 1980 era 1651 Maersk Line Container Truck, and which sold for hundreds of dollars.  These fake Maersk helmets, weren't even the right shade of blue... they were more of a teal blue than a Maersk blue.  The reason for making this fake helmet dried up in 2011, when the 10129 Maersk Container Train was introduced (with 3 minifigs with Maerskn helmets), when they started selling for as little as $2.  The new helmets have LEGO on the inside, the real old 1980 helmets only have a mold number on the inside (only 1 for sale on BL for $75).

In my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide, I have a chapter for Counterfeit LEGO parts/sets.  However besides about 1/2 dozen minifigs (including Mr. Gold, and the Maersk helmet) the potential fake minifigs out in the wild are too numerous to mention, and I stick mainly with fake set boxes, 10179 Millennium Falcon fake radar dishes, and a lot of other rare LEGO parts that have been faked.

 

For those of you who have my digital collectors guide, new (free to current owners) updates will be out at the end of the year.  

Edited August 7, 2022 by LEGO Historian