[MOC] Lego DB BR80 12v - in Torben Plagborg style (8-wide)

[Paperinik77pk]

Hi all,

since I read the very, very interesting thread about Torben Plagborg creations, I've been trying some new designs (some are just sketches, just to understand how things could work).

Now, in this nice thread some nice 12v creations can be seen - but one captured my interest more than others. It's a little blue steamer with a black 12v motor. It seems pretty big, so I'd say it was an 8-wide experiment. In general, all the top shelves are very interesting.

Starting from that little steamer, I began to think about a 12v locomotive in 8-wide. So I started designing another small steamer (I'd say a well known prototype): the great Deutsche Bundesbahn BR-80.

8-wide is not a common scale for me - I only tried it two times in my whole life, so it was a trial and error process. I tried to use parts that could have been available in the last 80s /first 90s - during the Phase II of the Gray Era and the advent of 9v era.

And here it is...it recalls me a "fat" 7727/7730, with a touch of 7810...

 8-wide gives some possibility also to work with odd number of studs (boiler is 5 studs wide instead of the classic 4-wide used in standard 12v steamers). 

I kept the standard cylinders, the ladders,  rods, red buffers and magnets, which fit nicely an keep the 12v  feeling alive. I used Some SNOT for the doors, using headlight bricks. Everything was already experimented at the time (e.g. the B-model wagon with horizontal sliding doors in 7735 instructions). 

 

Right side is quite symmetrical to the left one, apart some details. 12v motor looks nice, now that the body is correctly larger.

Weights can sit on top of the motor - but the model could already be sufficiently heavy to have some decent traction and pulling power. I think adding lights won't be a problem nowadays, but for sure at the time (80s/90s) it could  have been an additional challenge !

 

But...there are some issues that must be noted:

• The buffers overhang is quite...massive - and this SURELY will create problems with 12v switches, since the buffers will collide with the switching electric mechanism.
• Coupling wagons on R40 curves could be impossible...since this BR80 is longer than any other 12v locomotive or wagon not based on bogies chassis.
• Weight of a complete train could be excessive for the poor 12v motors.

I think it has been a very fun experiment, a real "12v+" MOC...but being realistic - in my opinion it's too limited by the motor, wheels size...and 12v track geometry itself . Maybe, with 3d printed 12v wheels and a PF-based motor it could work on PF flexible track - but it would then loose 90% of its "vintage" appeal.

I'd classify it as "Virtual Shelf Queen" ! 

Ciao!

Davide

Edited July 7, 2022 by Paperinik77pk
I added some new renders

[Sven J]

A very cute, nostalgic little model!
Reminds me of a BR80 that I built a long way back in the '80s, but with a black 12 V motor (the red version was almost impossible to get ...).

1 hour ago, Paperinik77pk said:

Coupling wagons on R40 curves could be impossible...since this BR80 is longer than any other 12v locomotive or wagon not based on bogies chassis.

Would it be possible to articulate the buffer beams to the main frame?

By the way: The "real" 80 039 has survived until today, though not in serviceable condition for several years. But 15 years ago I had the chance to see her while still operational, so even more nostalgic feelings about your model...

[Paperinik77pk]

10 hours ago, Sven J said:

A very cute, nostalgic little model!
Reminds me of a BR80 that I built a long way back in the '80s, but with a black 12 V motor (the red version was almost impossible to get ...).

Thanks Sven!!! 

10 hours ago, Sven J said:

Would it be possible to articulate the buffer beams to the main frame?

Not so much, since they are well integrated in the chassis - maybe I can try to reduce a bit the overhang by one stud in the front , since it is colliding with 12v switch actuator. 

But then, other problems could arise - even the track design should be adapted to the bigger scale, so after the switch, track should be moved away in order to avoid collisions between locomotives in parallel tracks. Then we've the coupling thing...I am using a small 7720 wagon - but surely also wagons would be bigger and longer - so all the coupling system should be re-designed from scratch (I was thinking to fixed bars with a inner pivoting point).

Also 2 axle wagons will have problems with R40, so our old, friendly G-Scale technology could be again the solution (turning wheel axles).

10 hours ago, Sven J said:

By the way: The "real" 80 039 has survived until today, though not in serviceable condition for several years. But 15 years ago I had the chance to see her while still operational, so even more nostalgic feelings about your model...

The 80-039 number was taken from the ROCO model I used as "template" - and it's good to hear this is a still existing and working locomotive!!! 

 

A personal feeling: Now that I tried these kind of "scale" directly on 12v, I re-evaluated the 9v system.

If I look at the 9v switches, they are surely wider than 12v, and allow without too many problems to use the 8-wide solution. I am thinking that tests of bigger trains in 12v could have influenced the choice to modify the 9v track geometry.

Probably an 8-wide train system was no good for TLG (more parts, more engineering, more weight, and more pricey sets). 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Paperinik77pk

[XG BC]

looks good! 

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

Wow, this topic is totally cool 

...not only your amazing locomotive in 12V style , but also the study of the problems of encumbrance is faced in great way with images of the cases described!
Excellent work Davide 

[Toastie]

10 hours ago, Paperinik77pk said:

A personal feeling: Now that I tried these kind of "scale" directly on 12v, I re-evaluated the 9v system.

If I look at the 9v switches, they are surely wider than 12v, and allow without too many problems to use the 8-wide solution. I am thinking that tests of bigger trains in 12v could have influenced the choice to modify the 9v track geometry.

Probably an 8-wide train system was no good for TLG (more parts, more engineering, more weight, and more pricey sets).

Oh, that's for sure: The 9V system made things "wider" - the 12V system is indeed "tight". But fully accepting 6-wide trains. Which in itself meant: Stick to 6 wide, look at overhang, take all the 12V gadgets into consideration. I like that: Operating within clearly set limits.

Now, I also believe that the 9V system not only made things "wider", but also much more "versatile": All of a sudden, the motor was the power pickup - and thus saved money (on the TLG side that is).

With regard to the 8-wide and pricey set's issue: Yes. But you know, they do make sets that are insanely pricey. What also comes in here is - I guess - the "how many sets can we possibly sell with this totally overpriced set": 8-wide, bold in appearance, and very nice, clocking in at $400+ (but should be $200 or less, and folks will figure that out). This is a 100% no-brainer in 18+ sets. But then: How many train heads would take that route? Paying insane amounts of money for ... what "we" (don't count me in) can make so much better?

I believe train heads just don't like to take that overpriced route ... they simply make their very own MOCs, excelling whatever TLG could possibly come up with, giving the constraints the designers are facing: Make it cheap, for mass production, and then ... move on.

8-wide and TLG? No. 8-wide and 9V track? Yes. But TLG will stick to 6 wide - of course they do. They most probably would do that with FX tracks and R100++ curves as AFOL-set standard: Profit rules.

And of course: Absolutely nothing new here.

These pictures from Torben are from another world: The "World of Imagine it".

Nevertheless, and that is my take: Just redesign - whatever it takes - the 12V drive of the 12V switch points. And then let your beautiful 8-wide 12V BR80 ride the 12V track.

With very best regards,
Thorsten

[zephyr1934]

Amazing work Paperinik77pk at recreating the prototypes that never left the Lego design studio! You do such a great job capturing the era.

[XG BC]

nice work. you really did it this time.

[HoMa]

Davide, haha, a grown up fat 7730 or should I say a "Brickhead" version of a Grey era steam engine. Everything has grown up nicely except for the wheels. So for me it looks a bid odd with the small wheels from the train motor.

But you got my full respect while making such a detailed grown up version just using elements which were available back then. I like that kind of challenges.

Have you thought of using the larger 7750 wheels and make your 8-wide wide grown-up a push train? 

Edited July 10, 2022 by HoMa

[Paperinik77pk]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:03 PM, XG BC said:

looks good! 

Thank you very much sir!!! 

On 7/7/2022 at 11:17 PM, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

Wow, this topic is totally cool 

...not only your amazing locomotive in 12V style , but also the study of the problems of encumbrance is faced in great way with images of the cases described!
Excellent work Davide 

Thanks Emanuele!!! It is a good "scale" to work on, but shows some limits in 12v ... and needs some study  - Ciao!!!

On 7/7/2022 at 11:47 PM, Toastie said:

Oh, that's for sure: The 9V system made things "wider" - the 12V system is indeed "tight". But fully accepting 6-wide trains. Which in itself meant: Stick to 6 wide, look at overhang, take all the 12V gadgets into consideration. I like that: Operating within clearly set limits.

Now, I also believe that the 9V system not only made things "wider", but also much more "versatile": All of a sudden, the motor was the power pickup - and thus saved money (on the TLG side that is).

With regard to the 8-wide and pricey set's issue: Yes. But you know, they do make sets that are insanely pricey. What also comes in here is - I guess - the "how many sets can we possibly sell with this totally overpriced set": 8-wide, bold in appearance, and very nice, clocking in at $400+ (but should be $200 or less, and folks will figure that out). This is a 100% no-brainer in 18+ sets. But then: How many train heads would take that route? Paying insane amounts of money for ... what "we" (don't count me in) can make so much better?

I believe train heads just don't like to take that overpriced route ... they simply make their very own MOCs, excelling whatever TLG could possibly come up with, giving the constraints the designers are facing: Make it cheap, for mass production, and then ... move on.

8-wide and TLG? No. 8-wide and 9V track? Yes. But TLG will stick to 6 wide - of course they do. They most probably would do that with FX tracks and R100++ curves as AFOL-set standard: Profit rules.

And of course: Absolutely nothing new here.

These pictures from Torben are from another world: The "World of Imagine it".

Nevertheless, and that is my take: Just redesign - whatever it takes - the 12V drive of the 12V switch points. And then let your beautiful 8-wide 12V BR80 ride the 12V track.

With very best regards,
Thorsten

Ciao Thorsten, thanks a lot for your kind words - I agree that 6-wide is the perfect TLG compromise. And I like it too - working with set limits allows you to create a "standard". You can even optimize it , or reinvent it (4,5v/12v-->9v-->RC/PF) to make it more powerful - or simply cheaper.

Rework the 12v mechanism...could be challenging, but it can also be fun! 

On 7/8/2022 at 5:04 PM, zephyr1934 said:

Amazing work Paperinik77pk at recreating the prototypes that never left the Lego design studio! You do such a great job capturing the era.

Thanks!!! It was an interesting work, and opens up to some other experiments (even thanks to the comments received in this thread)! 

12 hours ago, HoMa said:

Davide, haha, a grown up fat 7730 or should I say a "Brickhead" version of a Grey era steam engine. Everything has grown up nicely except for the wheels. So for me it looks a bid odd with the small wheels from the train motor.

But you got my full respect while making such a detailed grown up version just using elements which were available back then. I like that kind of challenges.

Have you thought of using the larger 7750 wheels and make your 8-wide wide grown-up a push train? 

Ciao Holger - you are right - wheels are small,small,small!

And I think that's why the second shelf (as noted by @Sven J) is full of narrow-gauge models (which more likely accept small diameter wheels). The medium size wheels are the correct ones for this locomotive and its dimensions.

I made it looking at Torben's images without too much attention to the real scale - I simply made it 8-wide and I tried to resize the sides accordingly. Just for "science"  I got some BR80 blueprints -  I want to see which scale could be acceptable for an 8-wide 12v Lego model - with some attention to prototype wheels size (I think we're between 1:45 and 1:48). I  like the idea of push-train! 

Ciao and thanks again to all!!!

Davide

[ThePhatController]

 I too have spent a long time looking at those images. 

This is a very nice model. As suggested I think bigger wheels and articulation of the buffers would improve its performance.. maybe like the big 7777 steamer. Notwithstanding that, great work.

[Paperinik77pk]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:16 PM, ThePhatController said:

 I too have spent a long time looking at those images. 

This is a very nice model. As suggested I think bigger wheels and articulation of the buffers would improve its performance.. maybe like the big 7777 steamer. Notwithstanding that, great work.

Thanks, I'll try to re-think a bit the model to include larger wheels!

Ciao!

Davide