Advanced/Heavy Weight Hinge - Need help

[Kage Goomba]

So if you note my signature - I've got a TIE/d (TIE Defender) Star Wars moc - but the hinges used in the panels are very....sensitive - enough that if you stomp your foot or run past it too quickly - they give.

Trying to find alternative methods or tricks to get around this problem.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Again - the problem lies in the panels/hinges which are Teeth type hinge plates.

I figured with advanced models/construction you guys could come up with some suggestions.

Much thanks for help/suggestions.

 

Some reference photos:

AS you can see - weight is a slight concern. Going to mod the stand to better support the wings.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Kage Goomba

[icm]

My only suggestion would be that the center panels look plenty thick to mount liftarms or angle connectors, ie how the wings are mounted on 75214 Anakin’s Jedi Starfighter, or how the wing panels are held at an angle on 75302 Imperial Shuttle.  But that would spoil the look of the undersides of the wing panels, so maybe it’s not a good idea.

[Kage Goomba]

3 minutes ago, icm said:

My only suggestion would be that the center panels look plenty thick to mount liftarms or angle connectors, ie how the wings are mounted on 75214 Anakin’s Jedi Starfighter, or how the wing panels are held at an angle on 75302 Imperial Shuttle.  But that would spoil the look of the undersides of the wing panels, so maybe it’s not a good idea.

Already tried that....while it works - few issues

1: Angel of attack isn't quite right - not that anyone can agree on the look for the panels.

2: There are a distinct lack of wedge plates in the colors I need to make the edge look better which may take a while to sort out.

3: The thickness of the panels goes from 3 plates (ignoring struts) to a brick with a plate on each - which means it could potentially ramp up the weight up.

 

hence why I'm seeking a magic bullet technique hinge wise.... I mean it works? But I'd like to strengthen it up.

[Carsten Svendsen]

It seems to me like it's not possible to strengthen the joint. Instead you have to brace the joint. You could only do this one way really, which is connecting both wings mechanically together.

Perhaps something like this, where the impact is minimal and can be hidden in the main block, especially with some SNOT techniques to make it seamless?

Asking for help in the technic forum is a good though as we are all very technically inclined with many complicated problem solving skills. The downside is that our solutions are generally at least one stud thick, mostly always at least two. Finding a solution that looks good in a system build to achieve a perfect angle is not impossible, but making it sturdy as well in 1 stud thickness, or less like here? Quite difficult. Your only solution will be a brace of some kind and while it may be noticeable, I don't think it'll be an eyesore if you do it correctly.

[Kage Goomba]

43 minutes ago, Carsten Svendsen said:

It seems to me like it's not possible to strengthen the joint. Instead you have to brace the joint. You could only do this one way really, which is connecting both wings mechanically together.

Perhaps something like this, where the impact is minimal and can be hidden in the main block, especially with some SNOT techniques to make it seamless?

Asking for help in the technic forum is a good though as we are all very technically inclined with many complicated problem solving skills. The downside is that our solutions are generally at least one stud thick, mostly always at least two. Finding a solution that looks good in a system build to achieve a perfect angle is not impossible, but making it sturdy as well in 1 stud thickness, or less like here? Quite difficult. Your only solution will be a brace of some kind and while it may be noticeable, I don't think it'll be an eyesore if you do it correctly.

This is an very intriguing idea. I'll have to mess with it to see if I can come up with a way to do that.

If you want I can throw you a copy of the Stud.IO file to mess with if it will help brain storm - course that will be tomorrow - headed to bed atm.

[cokobo]

Hey, maybe you could incorporate at least one of these to hold the hinges together 

Edited June 12, 2022 by cokobo
spelling

[Johnny1360]

Does the hinge action still move when installed, can you move the wing back and forth. If it does consider form locking it into place so it can't move as a hinge. I assume though as good of a builder that you are, you have probably already tried this. Another obvious solution could be replace the hinges with 1x2 technic plates with pinhole and simply push an axle through at the pivot, again though it would still  need to be form locked. Anyway good luck, looking forward to seeing the finished product.

[Kage Goomba]

51 minutes ago, Johnny1360 said:

Does the hinge action still move when installed, can you move the wing back and forth. If it does consider form locking it into place so it can't move as a hinge. I assume though as good of a builder that you are, you have probably already tried this. Another obvious solution could be replace the hinges with 1x2 technic plates with pinhole and simply push an axle through at the pivot, again though it would still  need to be form locked. Anyway good luck, looking forward to seeing the finished product.

It should NOT move once its in place - preferably.

2 hours ago, cokobo said:

Hey, maybe you could incorporate at least one of these to hold the hinges together 

This looks good - only problem is assembly may be a bit of a problem. Also wondering about friction strength as well.

Also not sure about Stud placement there - may not line up. Don't suppose you could do a more detailed example?

Edited June 12, 2022 by Kage Goomba

[Johnny1360]

It looks like those rail parts prevent the wing from folding up, is there a similar part underneath the wing to prevent it from folding down?

[Kage Goomba]

39 minutes ago, Johnny1360 said:

It looks like those rail parts prevent the wing from folding up, is there a similar part underneath the wing to prevent it from folding down?

Up isn't the issue - its the Down part that's a problem. (perspective isn't as it seems - check photos in first post ;) )

 

One good foot stomp and you'll have pieces falling off all over lol.

Ill sneak some photos into the first thread as I suspect people aren't looking at the source thread  XD

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Kage Goomba

[Johnny1360]

It has been my experience that those click hinges hold better if you lock them in so they can't hinge. It looks like the "wings" can easily be moved like a flap, eliminating that possibility will significantly increase the clutch power of the click joints. Is it enough to help, I don't know, those wings look very heavy.

Sorry I am not able to explain it any better.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Johnny1360

[Kage Goomba]

17 minutes ago, Johnny1360 said:

It has been my experience that those click hinges hold better if you lock them in so they can't hinge. It looks like the "wings" can easily be moved like a flap, eliminating that possibility will significantly increase the clutch power of the click joints. Is it enough to help, I don't know, those wings look very heavy.

Sorry I am not able to explain it any better.

It's a consideration - but the angle/stud placement kind of presents a problem there.

[Johnny1360]

Yes, you are right, it does look like a challenge. Another thing with those click joints, when using several, it is crucial to insure all the hinge points are in a perfectly straight line, or they tend to pop out, at the slightest movement. It is hard to tell from a picture but some of those look slightly bowed.

[deehtha]

Part of the problem you have is the hinge joints are not at the center of gravity for the panels. I know you cant move the joints, but can you increase the weight in the rear and decrease the weight of the front half?  If you use the black 2l friction pins, you can put a lightsaber bar in it to make it take and increase it's friction. Your best bet would probably be to do something similar to the rails on the other side.

[Kage Goomba]

3 hours ago, Johnny1360 said:

Yes, you are right, it does look like a challenge. Another thing with those click joints, when using several, it is crucial to insure all the hinge points are in a perfectly straight line, or they tend to pop out, at the slightest movement. It is hard to tell from a picture but some of those look slightly bowed.

they are in line - but weight may cause shifting by a hair - or as they are used parts.

1 hour ago, deehtha said:

Part of the problem you have is the hinge joints are not at the center of gravity for the panels. I know you cant move the joints, but can you increase the weight in the rear and decrease the weight of the front half?  If you use the black 2l friction pins, you can put a lightsaber bar in it to make it take and increase it's friction. Your best bet would probably be to do something similar to the rails on the other side.

Def. food for thought - much appreciated.

[Fluwoeb]

@Kage Goomba, here are some thoughts:

To continue the thought of using a hinge with a technic pins, maybe you could part #98286 and #98285 in conjunction with a minfigure bar inserted into the technic friction pins as @deehtha mentioned.    

Also, if you wanted to keep the hinges you have currently, I would suggest getting the 1-stud wide bricks and plates with the hinges essentially doubling up the connection points. You would be able to have different wing positions with this option.

Hope this helps,

Fluwoeb

[Kage Goomba]

2 hours ago, Fluwoeb said:

@Kage Goomba, here are some thoughts:

To continue the thought of using a hinge with a technic pins, maybe you could part #98286 and #98285 in conjunction with a minfigure bar inserted into the technic friction pins as @deehtha mentioned.    

Also, if you wanted to keep the hinges you have currently, I would suggest getting the 1-stud wide bricks and plates with the hinges essentially doubling up the connection points. You would be able to have different wing positions with this option.

Hope this helps,

Fluwoeb

Don't suppose you could diagram/show me an example of your ideas?

As for the single stud hinges - ill look into that.

[2GodBDGlory]

My suggestion would be to try using some #3/4/5 Technic angle connectors to lock it in place. It would be bulkier than what you have now, and wouldn't be posable, but I think it would be strong and about as compact as Technic is gonna get. You could also take a look at the old toothed connectors and half-bushes. 

[Kage Goomba]

54 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

My suggestion would be to try using some #3/4/5 Technic angle connectors to lock it in place. It would be bulkier than what you have now, and wouldn't be posable, but I think it would be strong and about as compact as Technic is gonna get. You could also take a look at the old toothed connectors and half-bushes. 

While the joint would be strong - the part would slip off the axle/linker due to the weight unless its stacked up - and that bumps up the thickness to more than 1 brick's worth at the end - so while its a good idea conceptually - likely not really an option here.

 

Already tried messing with with liftarms and the wedge plates are not available in the colors/parts I need for this. :/

Ugh.

[Kage Goomba]

Going to try the simplest solution and see if it will hold.

Stupid me - thanks to someone pointing this out earlier in this thread - should have tried using single stud hinges instead of the crap the original designer who made the "1.0 fraudulent" version of this.

This new iteration will be double the grip - hopefully it will hold.

[Carsten Svendsen]

Good luck clicking that together though

[Fluwoeb]

@Kage Goomba,

First idea would be to put this piece and this piece  together in the orientation they are shown in the pictures. The width would be three studs, but you could just continue the pattern and alternate and end up with the wing side being one stud shorter on both ends of the hinge than the body connection side. Also, as @deehtha mentioned, you should use lightsaber bars inside the friction pins to minimize their give under pressure. I guess the only downside would be that the top side of the hinge would offset the wings a bit...

If nothing else, you could incorporate both the technic pin hinges and the locking hinges into your wing connection like this, only with the doubled up hinge that you just mentioned:

On 6/12/2022 at 12:13 PM, cokobo said:

 

Let me know if that makes any sense.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Fluwoeb
Just noticed a recent post

[allanp]

Could you not add some discrete slope bricks or plates that stick out near the hinge so that they come to rest on the other part to block downward movement? It might even look like some nice extra detailing/greebling!  

[Kage Goomba]

10 hours ago, allanp said:

Could you not add some discrete slope bricks or plates that stick out near the hinge so that they come to rest on the other part to block downward movement? It might even look like some nice extra detailing/greebling!  

It's a possibility - but stud distance can be a bit of a problem - not to mention added weight.

If this new iteration holds- won't be a terrible need at least - but its something to consider.

[Oliver 79]

It might be a bit difficult to implement. But could you use some struts like this?