Hanso

Largest full automated LEGO train layout at LEGO World 2022 in Utrecht?

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I have just subscribed our large, full automated  LEGO train layout to join LEGO World 2022 in Utrecht. Hopefully we will be selected to show our build.

To get a taste what you can expect, you can look at the demo we have given a couple of weeks ago.

 

Some facts & figures:
The PC application is written in C# .NET. This application connects to 17 Mindstorms EV3 bricks to run this layout. The EV3 bricks have the EV3DEV as base, a C++ program runs on top of it. Apart from the EV3DEV basis, all software is written by ourselves. An own defined handshake protocol is used to communicate between the PC application and the bricks. Apart from the train, all EV3 bricks are connected via an ethernet cable. The train uses Wifi.

Don't forget to hit the 'Like' button if you enjoy our video.

 

 

Edited by Hanso

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Amazing! I need the PC setup to make a HMI control center for my fast moving warehouse.

I want to be able to call a certain set of pallets, to make small builds (like polybag), or just pallets 1 by 1 as you would need it to build something, or add extra pieces. But with a bigger screen than the EV3 now has (or more buttons). But I'm not good in programming for communication between different machines. Right now I'm going to try with an ESP32 board, but never used one so will need some time to learn it myselve how to use it, connect a small touchscreen to it and build a HMI.

Depending on when you will show this I might hop by as I did this weekend at Delft already to get an ESP32.

 

The energy chain at 4:34 is a nice design, haven't seen such a strong/stable one yet.

At 4:48 I see you made a nice T-Bot, a very good use to show its ability. And I didn't see this one yet in your builds, it's new? And I'm wondering what the guiding is for the long axis, as it looks like a longer travel than a 32L axle.

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8 hours ago, Philtech said:

Wow! I like this very much. I would like to see this in the Lego World Utrecht.

Thanks, I like it that you like it. Let's hope we will be selected to show our demo.

 

15 hours ago, Mr Jos said:

Amazing!

Thank you so much.

 

15 hours ago, Mr Jos said:

The energy chain at 4:34 is a nice design, haven't seen such a strong/stable one yet.

This is the latest version, I have (had) many different versions. This one needs to carry both the power line as well as the ethernet cable. We use a special, thin and flat one to make it as bendable as possible.

 

15 hours ago, Mr Jos said:

At 4:48 I see you made a nice T-Bot, a very good use to show its ability. And I didn't see this one yet in your builds, it's new? And I'm wondering what the guiding is for the long axis, as it looks like a longer travel than a 32L axle.

What do you mean with the guiding for the long axis? There is no axle inside, the chain transfers the power. That is the nice thing of this X-Y positioning system, the motors are both at the end and still you can do both an X and an Y movement of the pusher.

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19 hours ago, Hanso said:

What do you mean with the guiding for the long axis? There is no axle inside, the chain transfers the power. That is the nice thing of this X-Y positioning system, the motors are both at the end and still you can do both an X and an Y movement of the pusher.

Ah yes I forgot that you don't have an 'active' end-effector on your T-Bot. I do know how it works, as I made it one year ago

For it to have an active end-effector it needs an axle to transfer the movement to the head (if the motor is also at the not moving part). As can be seen here;

 

The maximal length is restricted to the longest axle (=32L), but as you made it, it doesn't need this axle and can be as long as you want indeed.

 

Just like you I do like to use these technic chain links, I think they are underrated by many people. They can be used for quick movements / far transmissions / used as a conveyor belt / separator / ...

Edited by Mr Jos
Typo

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Love your robot and especially the speed of the movements.

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This is really impressive. I am still watching over and over again the things that happen.

I also like very much, that you placed a train layout in the Technic++ forum :pir-laugh:

Good luck with the selection process - well, I'd say when you guys are not selected, then the folks doing the selection simply don't earn your presence. To be honest though, I can't imagine how this could go wrong ... very well done. As a group effort and as individual ingenuity.

All the best, I cross my fingers.
Thorsten

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8 hours ago, Toastie said:

This is really impressive. I am still watching over and over again the things that happen.

I also like very much, that you placed a train layout in the Technic++ forum :pir-laugh:

Good luck with the selection process - well, I'd say when you guys are not selected, then the folks doing the selection simply don't earn your presence. To be honest though, I can't imagine how this could go wrong ... very well done. As a group effort and as individual ingenuity.

All the best, I cross my fingers.
Thorsten

Thank you so very much for these great compliment.

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On 6/9/2022 at 9:51 PM, Toastie said:

Good luck with the selection process - well, I'd say when you guys are not selected, then the folks doing the selection simply don't earn your presence. To be honest though, I can't imagine how this could go wrong ... very well done. As a group effort and as individual ingenuity.

All the best, I cross my fingers.
Thorsten

We have not been selected :-(. There were 16 too many subscriptions and it seems we are not on the top 80 ... I really don't understand why .... Unfortunately they don't want to give more info than just 'sorry, no'. If somebody knows somebody from the selection team and can ask them why, we can learn from it.

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1 hour ago, Hanso said:

Unfortunately they don't want to give more info than just 'sorry, no'.

Shit. (I typed Sh*t, this will most certainly replaced by the Big Brother tool of EB with "megablocks". So replace sh*t with merde, as that tool does not speak French ...)

And this tells a lot.

First, don't feel bad or discouraged; you know, the selection team may be way less knowledgeable than you guys are :pir-skel:.

Second, what were the official "criteria" for the selection process, if there were any? If there are: Did you go along these lines?
(I would never do that, because it means tailoring your approach towards appealing to the criteria rather than being unique. However, wanting to be there, whatever it costs, is another thing. If that is most important, then, well, play along the criteria line - and cheat. Just tell them you rock. Not my cup of tea, but I believe or have learnt that this is how it works ...)
Let's assume there were no criteria for the selection: In that case ... I wouldn't even apply. An event is an event, and it has to - in the view of the organizers - appeal to the expected crowd.

You assembled a "system" that is way beyond belief for many, I'd say incomprehensible. A - from a programming, or logical perspective - breathtakingly nice system. Complex, functioning, for me: Wonderful. My world. Team work. Nothing, an individual could do in a restricted amount of time.

But maybe the committee was looking for "action". Fast movement. The "how did that happen" moment, as there is replay only so often. To get the crow excited.
Slow, but determined, clearly functioning, logically evolving, showing and demonstrating processes - may not catch on with a committee of a "show", call it "LEGO World 2022 Utrecht".

I may be totally wrong. No question. If I were you though, I'd stick to what you are doing: Fantastic work, suitable for classes at university level curricula: "Advanced Programming of Microcontrollers"; "Complex Problem-Solving"; "Team Building in the Engineering World" and so on and so forth.

Stick with it. It is fantastic work you are doing, and your accomplishments prove that.

All the best, and ... Just keep Doing It.
Thorsten

P.S.: Yes, find out who the "judges are/were" and if you have a chance, hose them down with a foam canon modulated with some code of your programs in binary form: 0 = off for 1 s, 1 = on for 1 s. I'd suggest for the foam ... pink as color and gin/tonic as taste. Maybe that would make them accept you to the show. Na, it wouldn't: Judges of that kind just don't get it :pir-laugh:

Edited by Toastie

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11 hours ago, Toastie said:

Judges of that kind just don't get it :pir-laugh:

I can assure you that the people who judge the entries are technical knowledgeable. 

 

As for Hanso, tried emailing them at the address you got the email from? We can guess here why it was declined, but they can actually tell you. 

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9 hours ago, Appie said:

I can assure you that the people who judge the entries are technical knowledgeable.

That is very good to hear!

However, "knowledge" becomes knowledge by sharing, explaining, and interpreting "knowledge" - so in a competition, or better call it a peer review process, as Hanso's and his folks' entry is reviewed by his peers, constructive feedback of why what happens is - as far as I am concerned - as much (sometimes even more) valuable as the entire work, as such feedback may/should actually result in better performance regarding further tries.

That's the only part I was and will heavily criticize, regardless of topic: A competition for limited something, a review process and no feedback = a waste of time.

When we submit a research paper to a journal, and the reviews are really harsh and even suggest to the editor to reject it, I tell my folks to just digest them for a week before freaking out. There must be something wrong - as our peers (in my research area) are usually not committed to shoot down a paper, but to increase the paper quality. The worst review is of the type: "Good work, publish as is" = don't want to deal with it further or: "Not good, reject" = either did not understand it or something made me angry. Good reviews have a short summary and then a bullet point list of things the reviewer was not happy with.

And I believe in every peer reviewed process there should be at least a bullet point list, or even just a score behind a criteria list. Doesn't take much time.

But: "No, sorry" - well - that is useless. In my opinion. You know, this is the useless way TLG is doing it with IDEAS.

Best,
Thorsten 

Edited by Toastie

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20 hours ago, Hanso said:

We have not been selected :-(. There were 16 too many subscriptions and it seems we are not on the top 80 ... I really don't understand why .... Unfortunately they don't want to give more info than just 'sorry, no'. If somebody knows somebody from the selection team and can ask them why, we can learn from it.

That 'zuigt'. It saves me a trip to The Netherlands, as that's what I would've come for to see. Would be good if they gave some feedback on what criteria it did not fit in, so you can change/modify it for next year. Like saying "It would create a bottleneck where people stay to long to watch it all happen", "The process should loop faster/more times per minute". Then you could try adjusting the gearing/program to allow a faster flow. Or if they don't like a particular object you used, that you can remove it.

Hope you can get your feedback somehow.

But after all, it remains an incredible masterpiece.

Edited by Mr Jos

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4 hours ago, Toastie said:

That's the only part I was and will heavily criticize, regardless of topic: A competition for limited something, a review process and no feedback = a waste of time.

However, the people who review the entries are volunteers who do this besides their normal fulltime job. And while it is nice to explain in detail why somebody didn't get selected, it could be time they might not have. Yes, it's "only" 16 entries that would like such feedback now, but there have been years (2019 for example) where they had over 120 applicants for the Fan Zone, with the same 80 person limit. Which would result in them writing 40+ emails with feedback. That said, if Hanso just asks them in an email, I am sure they would provide such feedback, but I can fully understand them not doing it by default for everybody that didn't get in.

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2 hours ago, Appie said:

I can fully understand them not doing it by default for everybody that didn't get in.

And that is also fine with me - but then I would not even apply. This is my problem, and others may see it differently and do not care at all!

However :pir-wink: : When setting up - any - competition, i.e., there is a limitation of X (let X be space, could be anything) - volunteers or not - a somehow "fair" (I know: Nothing is fair) approach is setting up a list of criteria. Let's say 5. Or 10. Then make a box behind them and rank them on a scale of 1 to 5 (it is always good to avoid 0). Then summarize the numbers. Should there be entries with equal numbers, discuss briefly. Even the evaluated list will make some sense to the competitors. Way more than "sorry". The time one spends on this is really low.

I am on many committees in my university - and now and then there have decisions to be made. Smoke and mirrors never do a good job in the long run.

Furthermore, even with volunteers who simply don't have the time to write things up because they have a life to live: A photocopy of the evaluated scoresheet (well, a cell phone shot will do), which also shows the criteria for the decision-making process, which were put-up before the decision-making process, makes things much more transparent - with not that much of time consume.

In the end, there was a decision. No feedback means (to me): Some folks in charge roll the dice. Or some folks in charge like some folks competing - but not all of them. I have simply seen it too often. I do remember my time as assistant professor in the US. I will never forget when NSF invited (for whatever reasons, maybe they liked lasers as well :pir-laugh:) me, a rookie at UCI to Washington - for evaluating really large projects. No criteria. Nothing. Just names and projects. When I read my evaluation (made my own criteria list, took me ages, read every proposal assigned to me, made my calculation) to them, one big guy from NSF asked: "Who is this? Does he know what he is talking about? You can't let that group down!" And I tell you, the proposal from that group was ... crappy. As if they knew: We're in.

Again: My problem. But Hanso's reaction

On 6/21/2022 at 10:16 PM, Hanso said:

I really don't understand why ...

triggered me. Big time. Particularly because the time competitors spend on creating/making their entry is >> than any decision process. Again, I know, it has to be like that.

But a criteria list with scores from each referee, accounted for by the committee chief, then evaluated by her or him and put up to discussion, and then a copy of the result sheet for each competitor takes a fraction of time more than writing "sorry". I mean, the committee had to come to a conclusion anyway, so that time does not count as "extra". I believe they do it that way even here on EB, looking at the Technic competitions.

I know I sound weird. And I don't say somebody did something wrong. Not at all! I am just saying what I would do, because I believe to know how Hanso must feel; I have been there, and then seen it too many times.

That's all folks, don't take this too seriously! Sorry for getting derailed a bit.

All the best,
Thorsten     

Edited by Toastie

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Thanks for all the kind words and suggestions.

There are no restrictions, apart from the "obvious" ones like no violent and/or racist themes. But nothing about size, throughput time, etc. I don't need a full explanation why we were not selected, but one or two lines would be enough. I have tried all years to get feedback, but they just refuse to do that. So every year, if feels like a tombola and that doesn't feel good.

 

On 6/22/2022 at 11:00 AM, Appie said:

I can assure you that the people who judge the entries are technical knowledgeable.

It sounds as if you know some of the guys of the judges. Can you try reaching out to them?

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4 hours ago, Hanso said:

It sounds as if you know some of the guys of the judges. Can you try reaching out to them?

... 

You received an email from them, hit the reply button and just ask them why it was declined. Why do I need to be a middle man for this?

 

Edit: I can give an educated guess why it was declined (to be clear, this isn't from the judges but from me): 

- Similarities with GBC, which always has a (big) place at the event, because kids LOVE it. 

- Overlap/similarities with the (big) train layout that's also present every year as kids love it. 

- Your creation lacks a bit of dress-up maybe? The train layout for example tries to have sections you'd see in a city while trying technical things in their builds, where yours looks more like a a showcase of what's technically possible. 

- GBC and Trains taking a big chunk of the limited space available, yours would be another that would cost 4-6 tables. And not only that, but that's also 4-6 tables that could have gone to other individuals. Meaning that it could be that 4-6 other people had to be declined to accommodate your setup. 

Again, this is not from the judges, but just my guess. 

Edited by Appie

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Lucklly they made an exception and responded to me what the main reason is that we were not selected.

In short: we need quite some space, and we would only be there for half of the week. They couldn't find another alternative for the other week. That, in combination with some other things, has led to the outcome.

Now I have some parameters where we can work on...

 

PS To Appie: I already did hit the reply button, but until this year there was no reply. That's why I asked you to help.

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It was a hard decision for the team to make, but we decided not to aim at LEGO World Utrecht anymore. The demands (especially to be there 8 days) are not doable for our relative small team.

We are now aiming at a smaller LEGO event more nearby Eindhoven. If anybody has suggestions which Lego events are coming up in the coming year, please let us know.

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11 hours ago, Hanso said:

It was a hard decision for the team to make, but we decided not to aim at LEGO World Utrecht anymore. The demands (especially to be there 8 days) are not doable for our relative small team.

We are now aiming at a smaller LEGO event more nearby Eindhoven. If anybody has suggestions which Lego events are coming up in the coming year, please let us know.

Seems you're not going to be the only one not going to Lego World Utrecht, looks like it got cancelled.

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Hi Hanso,

I have looked online and found Bricktopia, they have an event 15/16 october in Heythuysen (not far from Eindhoven) and on 10/11 december in Geleen (within an hour from Eindhoven). Or are you looking for events in 2023.

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On 8/4/2022 at 6:29 PM, Mr Jos said:

Seems you're not going to be the only one not going to Lego World Utrecht, looks like it got cancelled.

I have read the article about the cancellation at Bouwsteentjes.info. The timestamp of the cancellation matches the timestamp of our decision. Coincidence ...? :grin:

 

On 8/4/2022 at 7:41 PM, vliet said:

Hi Hanso,

I have looked online and found Bricktopia, they have an event 15/16 october in Heythuysen (not far from Eindhoven) and on 10/11 december in Geleen (within an hour from Eindhoven). Or are you looking for events in 2023.

I will look into these events, thanks for sharing.

Edited by Hanso

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