The Future of Technic

[howitzer]

5 minutes ago, langko said:

I understand that example was meant as a flagship. But the idea that fire trucks, super cars, helicopters etc aren’t interesting to everyone can be applied to any model of any subject at any price point. For example I won’t buy a fire truck if the price is $40, $400, or anywhere in between. 
Out of curiosity do you have an idea for a single set that would have wide appeal? 
I agree with you it would be more interesting to see an idea for an entires year lineup, you can make a better judgement. But I wouldn’t blame any one on here for not wanting to put the effort in to think of that. 

Yes, and I won't by the Sian nor Senna, even if neither is particularly bad set. Those are just not interesting to me. Still, I recognize the fact that there's a lot of people who find those appealing and they are a great way for TLG to make money.

If you look at what has been historically produced in Technic, it isn't hard to discern what types of sets have the widest appeal: cars, trucks, construction equipment, aircraft. Beyond those, it's hard to think of anything that would make a sales hit.

[langko]

@allanp hmmm if we do go completely crazy like you've mentioned how much extra cost would that add to the final model? If they're selling the bulldozer for $400usd they might sell something crazy like that for $500usd - you might gain customers from the extra functions but you might loose others because the cost is pushed up higher. I agree with you completely that one large set could be way more exciting than 4 small ones. I guess some people might prefer getting 4 smaller sets for more variety, or other people might think they are getting more value from 3 or 4 sets that cost the same as one big one. For example if I go on Lego AU right now, the bulldozer is $750au... I can buy the BMW bike ($320au) the tow truck ($270au) and all 4 monster jam sets ($132au) all for $722au - $28 less. I guess when a single set is that expensive people are always going to compare it to what else they can get with that sort of money, and there's lot of options when you are looking at the lego shop as a whole - not just the technic section. For me if I'm going to drop a high amount of money on anything, it has to be something I really like - and that starts with subject matter and then then execution of whatever it is. I personally wouldn't care if the UCS supercar came out every 3 or 4 years instead of every 2 if it meant that it gave them the time to execute it better. If you wanted to give all interests a fair go you would rotate the flagship topics, so this year could be the Firetruck, the next year some sort of tracked vehicle, the next year a Supercar, the next year some sort of construction vehicle like a huge crane, then you could go to back to some sort of truck etc... But I guess life's not always fair or equal and as mentioned LEGO will offer what sells well - and if that happens to be lots of cars... or if what sells well doesn't necessary meet AFOL's expectations then that might be hard to change. 

[allanp]

2 hours ago, langko said:

I understand that example was meant as a flagship. But the idea that fire trucks, super cars, helicopters etc aren’t interesting to everyone can be applied to any model of any subject at any price point. For example I won’t buy a fire truck if the price is $40, $400, or anywhere in between. 
Out of curiosity do you have an idea for a single set that would have wide appeal? 
I agree with you it would be more interesting to see an idea for an entires year lineup, you can make a better judgement. But I wouldn’t blame any one on here for not wanting to put the effort in to think of that. 

Well that would be some effort, but it'll be fun to try  Following recent Lego trends (IE many pull backs in the first half lol)

January:

42xx1: $20, "Lego Motive" (new technic sub theme to act as an easily accessible bridge between regular Lego and Technic with technic minifig) basic set. Studded technic universal set, something like 8032 

42xx2: $50, "Lego Motive" (new technic sub theme to act as an easily accessible bridge between regular Lego and Technic with technic minifig) motor set. Studded technic universal set, something like 8064 

42xx3: $8, go cart with steering, 1 cylinder engine

42xx4: $10, (I don't care!)

42xx5: $20, pull back monster truck

42xx6: $20, pull back monster truck

42xx7: $30 2 pull back jet skis with ramp

42xx8: $40 wind-up clock (powered by pull back motor)

42xx9: $60 small helicopter (similar to 8412, includes the new helicopter parts that are hopefully coming this summer) 

March:

42x10: $100 4x4 jeep with speed boat (jeep has wrangler tyres, suspension, steering, small engine, winch, tows a trailer with a speed boat on it, speed boat has wheels driving prop and small engine)

42x11: $140 RC/PU studless universal set (something like 8082)

42x12: $180 1:5 scale Aprilia RS660 motorbike, lime green with red wheels, has V4 engine, working brakes, suspension and 4 speed realistic gearbox (with 4 clutch gear sizes) 

Summer:

42x13: (accessory) $50 basic motor set. Comes with one motor, simple battery box, lights

42x14: (accessory) $120 Control+ remote. A smart device with touch screen combined with a gamepad type thing, removes need for smart phone and gives physical controls. Pricey but you only have to buy one to greatly improve all control+ sets.

42x15: $140 Pneumatic telehandler. Manual. Includes 3 different steering models, 4 wheel drive, fake engine, new 3x13 cylinder for main boom lifting and new 2x25 cylinder for boom telescoping and extra motor pump so it can be motorised via basic motor set.

42x16: $200 Golf GTI. Manual 1:8 scale hatchback with McPherson strut front suspension, rear suspension, front wheel drive, steering, inline 4 transverse engine, 5 seats, stick shift, 6 speed realistic gearbox (with 6 clutch gear sizes), Wheels can be lifted off the ground and upgradeable with basic motor set to see the wheels go faster as you change gears.

42x17: $400 Classic American Fire truck (just to use previous thought experiment!) Control+ Flagship. approx 4000pcs. Includes 2 hubs, new metal leaf spring suspension, New narrow wheels, with deep positive offset (so 2 can be pinned back to back for dually set up), one 3x13 black cylinder for ladder lift, two 2x25 black cylinders for 3 section ladder extension, torquey micro servos, four 2x7 standard cylinders for pneumatic outriggers, fake engine, 2 new programmable light arrays (stackable, one can plug into the other, PU app adds new lighting control sequencer code block with multiple trigger inputs for different effects), lots of opening hatches for tools and hoses, lots of exterior details. Ports in use are Drive, steer, compressor, ladder lift valve servo, ladder extend valve servo, ladder rotation, outriggers valve servo, lights.

42x17 B-model: Forklift. Drive, steer, one black 3x13 cylinder (with chain to double lift height) for main lift, two black 2x25 cylinders used for triple mast extension, pneumatic tilt using 2x7 cylinders, lights sequenced to look like rotating beacons. Some may view this B-model to be better than the A-model. But I still maintain that B-models for bigger sets are a golden opportunity to release models that would be very well received, but might also be deemed a bit too boring or not well known enough for the masses, another example being a grader as a B-model for a back hoe or something.

    

Edited April 23, 2022 by allanp

[Brickthus]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:11 AM, TangersTechnic said:

This is my personal view and I might be wrong but to me it feels like Technic is losing some of it's focus, it almost feels like the "old days", when technic lost it's focus and the sets that are being released are not hitting the mark.

More and more I am seeing posts about how "bad" specific sets are, that sets are being pulled after being announced / released and generally the sets are not being well received, mostly by the AFOL community.

1. Has Technic taken a step back / wrong turn?
2. Is the level of MOC's we see, now so good that almost anything TLG release is seen as "second rate"?
3. Do you feel that the "fun" has gone? I can remember buying sets and loving the technical details / features, seeing how they work and the way they have been built and designed.

 

1. Not an overall backward step, but maybe small ones and several sideways steps, lining up with avenues that are not necessarily AFOL preferences.

Some sets have too many panels and not enough mechanisms but that doesn't matter if the panels are of the colour you want for a MOC.  Black, white and grey work for me.  So do Red and Bright Blue, since I like to make Technic-enhanced Classic Space (and following) theme models.  I tend to avoid Azure and Dark Blue, but Dark Green, Bright Green and Orange are just nice colours, even if they are not suitable to recreate a previous theme's colour scheme.

Simple motorisation is currently lacking, following the Osprey debacle, which was itself a backward step.  We may see the revival of the simpler switched battery unit in the Airbus helicopter later this year.  PU hubs, without the ability to use the train handset, are awkward, especially the 4-port hub.  They limit the set to being just the toy you buy, unless you either have a tablet to program it or you use the supplied control screen for a similar MOC.  TLG has admitted before that it is not a software company, so we are unlikely to see support for improved firmware from them.  I tried the 3rd-party Pybricks firmware but can't get a 4-port hub to work with a train handset yet.  I was hoping that TLG might eventually use a Spike Essentials hub in a Technic set, as the Technic equivalent of the City hub, and even add train-handset-friendly firmware, but that would be too expensive.  So, avoiding a phone, I'm left with waiting for the switched battery unit for the always-on functions (compressor etc.) and using the City hub and handset for remote functions.  After that, if the average LEGO electric system lasts 10 years, roll on 2030!  It's touch-and-go whether I would have extracted significant play value from PU by then.

Steering rakes on set vehicles are usually rubbish. The aspiration should be 40 degrees either side of centre for most vehicles; 42078 achieved it.  For other sets of similar size to fail to achieve it is a choice and hence a backward step if TLG puts out poor functions in sets.  4WD is a bit more limited in rake.

Clearly sponsorship has its difficulties; a wrong turn with 42141 has needed a revision for a sticker licensing issue.  That will hit TLG's profits for something I don't bother with; I'd happily take the brick sets off them without sticker sheets for half price ;)

The current absence of a 2/6 pneumatic cylinder is a backward step.  I see it as another symptom of TLG wanting to limit the range of special parts for cost reasons.  Same as combining the switches into the PU battery unit.  Loss of versatility overall is a backward step but there are steps forwards and backwards.

The loss of extra instruction pages with basic gear, strut, lever and pulley education is a backward step that was made years ago.  Sets are not designed for MOCing; that has to be our own initiative.

Sponsorship is a necessary evil.  The alternative was dependency on Bionicle.  The whole of TLG relies on the licences of SW and HP to support the sideline that building has become.  That is the world we live in - all about money :(

2. Not often.  Sponsorship makes it harder for us to build MOCs good enough to get a sponsor interested in giving anything Technic on LEGO Ideas the push it needs to become a kit.  I love to make scale working models but it's a next level beyond most kits, well into several hundred hours for a decent sized MOC.

3. I do struggle to "find the fun".  Technic has the issues above but Trains is almost dead (just a toy), Monorail was too bespoke (or New Monorail uses too many standard pieces for the track) and Classic Space could not be revived as it may be perceived that it would compete with Star Wars for our cash.  Hence Technic is actually better off than those other themes!  I have tried a new Technic MOC but hit a few snags and limits of the parts.  I couldn't deny it was fun to spend 250 hours building in 9 weeks but I need fresh vision now.  I still enjoy it when a set does a function well.  I kept the Lambo gearbox for now.

On 4/22/2022 at 4:09 PM, allanp said:

@howitzer the idea with the labels for pneumatic tubes is that they would be a thin sticker long enough to wrap around the pipe a couple of times so it can't come off, and yes it is a form of colour coding, one that allows for far more colours and even numbers to be used to better identify hoses whilst having the majority of the hose be all black. All the hoses would be black with just a 3mm wide strip of colour near each end of the pipe. So it's colour coding, but more tasteful and with less room for error.

I would prefer to see the release of the tube extender/holder in more colours.  This would be the equivalent of having the cable holder in several colours in 42100 and educational sets.

Mark

[vascolp]

6 hours ago, Brickthus said:

I tried the 3rd-party Pybricks firmware but can't get a 4-port hub to work with a train handset yet. 

May be this could help you...

 

[Jim]

@Brickhaus I have seen the 4-port hub work with the train remote. I you experience problems, you can create a dedicated topic.

[Erik Leppen]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:51 PM, howitzer said:

You're correct that all of this (except lights) should be doable in a 150 dollar fully manual/pneumatic set, similar in complexity to the 42128 Tow Truck. But if you want to make it somewhat bigger (maybe Arocs scale) and motorize the main functions and also include those lights, you're probably looking for a much more expensive set, perhaps $250-300 or even more, if we include stuff from @allanp's dreams like small servos for pneumatic switches and so on.

But here's the thing. If there is the possibility of having a 150 dollar fire truck, would you rather spend the other 150 dollars on motorization and lighting of said truck, or another entire set with cool functions, say a dump truck or a grader or whatever? I much prefer having two sets, also because I can then spread the spending and have twice the fun and twice the anticipation, and more functions per dollar.

My experience with the few large sets I built (the Defender and the Chiron) is that around 40% of the build, all the functions are done and all the rest is cosmetics. I just didn't enjoy the second half of those builds. I know all sets have cosmetics, and large sets more so, but I didn't have that problem when building the good old Unimog, because the ratio between function and form was much better in my view.

21 hours ago, langko said:

I agree with you it would be more interesting to see an idea for an entires year lineup, you can make a better judgement. But I wouldn’t blame any one on here for not wanting to put the effort in to think of that. 

I could take a shot how I would love to see it. Not saying it would make any economic sense, just what would be an ideal approach for me personally.

Taking 2020 as an example year, I see a year comprises of about 15 sets.

Categories that could speak to different audiences:

• Construction
• Logistics
• Farming
• Trucks
• Racing
• Air
• Water
• Non-vehicles

Let's see what models are possible within those categories:

• Construction: mobile crane, excavator, trench digger, skid loader, front loader, bulldozer, grader, concrete layer
• Logistics: container stacker, forklift, telehandler, port crane
• Farming: tractor with plow, log loader, tree cutter, combine harvester
• Trucks: skip truck, dump truck, crane truck, concrete pump, concrete mixer, mining truck, garbage truck, tow truck
• Racing: dragster, hot rod, buggy, formula 1 car, supercar, rally car, drift car, monster truck, snowmobile
• Air: seaplane, aircraft, helicopter, space shuttle
• Water: hovercraft, fishing boat, hydroplane racer, jetski
• Non-vehicles: amusement ride, robotic arm, GBC, static crane

That's 30-or-so different things that could be made. Each of those can be made as a small, medium, large or flagship-sized set, giving 120 options. Every year, pick 15-or-so options, maybe including 1 or 2 not on this list. Aim for at least something in every category, and not too many same-sized sets in one category:

• Small construction - €10 - Mini skid loader
• Medium construction - €45 - excavator - tracked, manual
• Large construction - €150 - Mobile crane - a compact crane this time
• Small logistics - €10 - Mini forklift
• Medium logistics - €50 - Telehandler - manual, 4-wheel steering, raisable and extendable arm, manual forks at the end
• Small farming - €30 - Tractor - like the recent John Deere but with a plow instead of the trailer
• Large farming - €100 - Forest log handler - pneumatic, similar to the green-lime-white one, allowint optional motorization of the pump
• Medium truck - €80 - Concrete mixer - like the one we had recently
• Flagship truck - €280 - Tow truck - large 4-axle black longnose tow truck with rotator crane and chrome details. A truck of this size deserves suspension.
• Small racing - €15 - Beach buggy - front steering and rear suspension and a 1 cylinder engine
• Small racing - €20 - Monster truck - pullback
• Medium racing - €130 - Drift car - remote controlled - like the top gear car, but less ugly and with slippery wheels to do all kinds of cool manouvers ;)
• Large racing - €180 - Licenced car - suspension, gearbox, steering; scissor doors. Special function: height-adjustable suspension.
• Small air - €30 - Helicopter
• Medium water - €60 - Boat - with a small crane or loading bay or something, and hidden wheels to control rudders and fake engine
• Flagship other - €240 - Amusement ride - with swinging arms and rotating seats, and entrance/exit gates. Motorized, with physical levers on the model to control it.

That's 16 sets, ranging €10 - €10 - €15 - €20 - €30 - €30 - €45 - €50 - €60 - €80 - €100 - €130 - €150 - €180 - €240 - €280, so all kinds of pricepoints covered. In the price-ordered list, put the 8 odd-numbered sets in the first half and the 8 even-numbered sets in the second half, so that every half-yera, there's something in each pricepoint, yet the summer sets are still slightly larger on average than the winter sets.

There's pneumatic, there's remote control, there's motorization, there's lots of manual functions, and lots of different subject matters. Air and water are a bit under-represented, so next year will have a large aircraft. Cars are still represented, but the majority is vehicles with more functions than just drive and steer.

Optional motorization packs are not year-bound and are always available.

It will be one heck of a year 

 

[langko]

22 hours ago, allanp said:

Well that would be some effort, but it'll be fun to try  Following recent Lego trends (IE many pull backs in the first half lol)  

Well I definitely give you credit for putting in the effort, and I quite like what you have come up with 

Nothing wrong with lots of pullbacks haha, some of my best memories with Lego as a kid was racing my pull back cars up the hallway and seeing which one went the furthest. I do laugh when I hear adults complain that the mustang was a pullback set, its clearly meant for kids and you're not the target audience. I feel like you've done a pretty decent job with the list, I think there would truly be something/multiple things for everyone there. There isn't any mid range filler sets here either (like a pointless, minimal function Ferrari with way too many stickers). I can see why some people say technic is loosing its way with consistent releasing stuff like that. In my opinion the 42078 Mack Anthem was a great functional set that still looked good, whilst also having a B-model, whilst also being around the same price point as mentioned Ferrari. Sets like that seem way more 'technic' to me, and I feel like we are getting less and less of those types of sets now. Leave the show focused cars to creator expert. Speaking of sets with B-models, the B-model forklift idea for the firetruck sounds like a great idea! For me that sounds better than say - adding lots of chrome pieces. I feel stuff like chrome pieces should be the icing on the cake of an already great model, not something that is added to get the model over the line sales wise. The high end price flagship models are for a more specific audience anyway. I don't think they should be aimed at the casual builder but more so your AFOL, and a B-model definitely is a big plus in that regard. The Golf GTI 1:8 car sounds way more interesting and different to me than the upcoming SP3, and at a better price point too. One thing I like about the Speed Champions sets is the range of cars they make, classics like a countach, older generation racers and muscle cars all make appearances. I wish some of that variety was more present in the technic line up too. I would definitely buy a hot hatch like said Golf or a Honda Civic Type R. Lox Lego's recent Subaru STI and other muscles cars are quite popular and show that people are interested in other things apart from super/hypercars. 

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

But here's the thing. If there is the possibility of having a 150 dollar fire truck, would you rather spend the other 150 dollars on motorization and lighting of said truck, or another entire set with cool functions, say a dump truck or a grader or whatever? I much prefer having two sets, also because I can then spread the spending and have twice the fun and twice the anticipation, and more functions per dollar.

I have similar thinking to this as well, I too would take the 2 set option.

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

That's 30-or-so different things that could be made. Each of those can be made as a small, medium, large or flagship-sized set, giving 120 options. Every year, pick 15-or-so options, maybe including 1 or 2 not on this list. Aim for at least something in every category, and not too many same-sized sets in one category:

This is very much the way I would approach things too. Making sure the following year is varied to so it gets different options than the year before, if you had a medium and flagship truck this year - next year can be small and large. Exactly like you mention with "Air and water are a bit under-represented, so next year will have a large aircraft". I like your list as well, there is definitely a good range of everything there. Like Allans list above everything stills feels technic focussed without having money grabbing sets that are clearly for display and not for the "build for real" experience. In the current technic lineup though there is no way near an even representation of mentioned categories... which I guess is the main problem for people. 

[howitzer]

2 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

But here's the thing. If there is the possibility of having a 150 dollar fire truck, would you rather spend the other 150 dollars on motorization and lighting of said truck, or another entire set with cool functions, say a dump truck or a grader or whatever? I much prefer having two sets, also because I can then spread the spending and have twice the fun and twice the anticipation, and more functions per dollar.

My experience with the few large sets I built (the Defender and the Chiron) is that around 40% of the build, all the functions are done and all the rest is cosmetics. I just didn't enjoy the second half of those builds. I know all sets have cosmetics, and large sets more so, but I didn't have that problem when building the good old Unimog, because the ratio between function and form was much better in my view.

I think manual/pneumatic fire truck of $150 would be different from motorized firetruck of $300, same as 42100 is different from 42121. Both fine sets on their own, but somewhat different target audiences as one is much more expensive and complex than the other, so I don't think it's very easy to compare them. I'd say it's a matter of personal preference if you'd take a one $300 set or two $150 sets, I see pros and cons in each of them. Though I'd take any grader any day (unless it was extremely poorly executed.)

Car sets like Defender and Chiron tend to be functions inside, cosmetics outside, so it's natural to have functions build early in the set and only cosmetic stuff later, though it's not limited to cars. I just finished today building of 42139 ATV and most of the functionality was finished with bag 1, bags 2 and 3 had very little and they were also simpler. 42128 Tow truck maybe had more of the functional build spread throughout the build, as it had the towing arm to be finished in a later stage.

[allanp]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

 

• Small construction - €10 - Mini skid loader
• Medium construction - €45 - excavator - tracked, manual
• Large construction - €150 - Mobile crane - a compact crane this time
• Small logistics - €10 - Mini forklift
• Medium logistics - €50 - Telehandler - manual, 4-wheel steering, raisable and extendable arm, manual forks at the end
• Small farming - €30 - Tractor - like the recent John Deere but with a plow instead of the trailer
• Large farming - €100 - Forest log handler - pneumatic, similar to the green-lime-white one, allowint optional motorization of the pump
• Medium truck - €80 - Concrete mixer - like the one we had recently
• Flagship truck - €280 - Tow truck - large 4-axle black longnose tow truck with rotator crane and chrome details. A truck of this size deserves suspension.
• Small racing - €15 - Beach buggy - front steering and rear suspension and a 1 cylinder engine
• Small racing - €20 - Monster truck - pullback
• Medium racing - €130 - Drift car - remote controlled - like the top gear car, but less ugly and with slippery wheels to do all kinds of cool manouvers ;)
• Large racing - €180 - Licenced car - suspension, gearbox, steering; scissor doors. Special function: height-adjustable suspension.
• Small air - €30 - Helicopter
• Medium water - €60 - Boat - with a small crane or loading bay or something, and hidden wheels to control rudders and fake engine
• Flagship other - €240 - Amusement ride - with swinging arms and rotating seats, and entrance/exit gates. Motorized, with physical levers on the model to control it.

Could be great, could be not so great.....

We could assume that this list of offerings was handed down to the designers from the focus groups/market analysts, so assuming we can't drastically change anything like price points and subject matters what can we do to make each set more Eurobricks comment proof? I'll just do two or three as examples (I'm aware my comments are getting quite long )

A 45 euro tracked excavator? Do you think there would be complaints that we already have 42121 on the shelves? But we could use the new ATAT ring gears with for the turn table with rollers like 42082, and gear to the inner teeth to a fake beacon. Totally OTT for a model this size, the slew ring would probably take up most of the internal space, but it's a nice added touch of realism over 42121. Maybe also make it a very cheap way to get pneumatics, so like 8837? 

A 150 euro compact mobile crane? Again, do you think there might be complaints that we have 42108 and the spider crane, both in a sort of similar price point? How do we make it feel new and different? I remember seeing (but can't find a picture) a fairly interesting crane a lot as a kid, it was a smallish 4 wheel rough terrain crane (maybe it was a deck carry crane?) with telescoping boom, lifting and slewing, but the way it worked was it had two large lifting cylinders that went from the main boom right down to the deck of the crane itself (not the base of the upper carriage as you would expect), the bases of these cylinders were spaced far apart, in an A-frame kinda way. So by extending both cylinders the boom would lift, but by extending one cylinder and retracting the other you get a small amount of slewing action. Lets use LAs this time for the sake of variety! They could be geared together via a new to official Technic, differential based add/subtract mechanism to create the separate lifting and slew functions from two separate cranks.

I love fairground rides, but this is a tricky one. The functions are good and dynamic (lots of visible movement), but you could argue that they are simple enough to be done in the creator amusement park range, and would look better there too. Maybe we could add lots of fairground style lighting and ATAT ring gear based roller bearings?