Lego clearly doesnt want my money!

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

16 hours ago, Toastie said:

Nowadays, I browse the BB website way more often than TLG's.  

@Toastie ...once again this goes for me!
The BB productivity and availability of railway material is impressive ...among other things, the models being inspired by reality (as opposed to TLG) makes this site much more interesting for hints and ideas (not least the possibility of having free access to the instructions).

 

[zephyr1934]

19 hours ago, Toastie said:

I also do share your "suspicion" (which is much more than that, for sure) about that exponential curve - along with the "trend". And for sure, this curve is affected by third party acceptance. I am again only speculating, but I believe there is much more than these "exclusives gaining attention" happening. Your fantastic rods, track of others, etc. etc. are mostly "exclusives" in my view - TLG does simply not make them. But this market also provides very nice and diverse locomotives, rolling stock, buildings, etc. Which are in full range of TLG, but 100% uninteresting to them, as you and others pointed out. I was not surprised that even Emanuele ( @LEGO Train 12 Volts), in my view a LEGO Train Super MOCer, reaches out to 3rd party (not for exclusives but competing products). This goes all along your reasoning.

You know, this is one spot where I might have a unique market insight. With the introduction of the BrickTracks wide radius curves (and subsequently similar curves by many other suppliers) longer rods have steadily become more popular, presumably because people can now build functioning steam engines with XL and XXL drivers.

[Toastie]

7 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

presumably because people can now build functioning steam engines with XL and XXL drivers.

No, because "presumably" should be replaced by "for sure". These rods make such a huge difference; in my opinion, a steamer becomes a steamer through its diverse rods and valve gear. Yes, black, boiler, cabin, all of great varieties, and so on. But in essence, a "steamer" is a steam engine on wheels, requiring quite a lot of (re)direction of water vapor. I love thermodynamics - and thus naturally Carnot machines. Which don't exist in reality. And along the line of "imperfect" Carnot machines, the steam engine is maybe one of the worst, but the most powerful. Putting such engines on wheels, and making them move forward >and< reverse, requires a lot of - gear. Driving rods, connecting rods, valve gear ...

Your market insight is (as you know) clearly supporting your analysis regarding the "1" folks on your log scale.

Best wishes,
Thorsten   

[Kalahari134]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:49 PM, allanp said:

 3) No more cereal boxes. These are expensive and even somewhat luxury toys that deserves to be shown off and celebrated, not stuffed in a cheap cereal box. You might say the box is not that important, but a sheet of clear cellophane and a vacuum formed tray isn't exactly expensive. I got an Easter egg the other day, and it had the outer box, a cellophane window, a vacuum formed tray, a separate tray for the added chocolates, and it just felt like the manufacturer cared. Yes, I know it's meaningless packaging, but I am a humble human and it brings that bit of magic to me. Surely a £200 Lego set deserves, and would benefit from, just as much of a celebration of its content from its packaging than a £10 chocolate egg! Let me lift the lid to see the tracks, the motor, the big speed dial and all the pieces I can take home with me!

 

No, I'm very glad that LEGO are moving away from single-use plastic packaging towards paper internal bags.

[zephyr1934]

15 hours ago, Toastie said:

And along the line of "imperfect" Carnot machines, the steam engine is maybe one of the worst, but the most powerful. Putting such engines on wheels, and making them move forward >and< reverse, requires a lot of - gear. Driving rods, connecting rods, valve gear ...

When I was in college I volunteered on a number of operating steam engines (never an expert, at best a mediocre fireman). It was stunning how many person hours were spent in the shop for each mile the locomotive ran, and this was with relatively new steam locomotives (ca. 1905-1930). Which got me thinking, what kind of idiot in the 1820's thought that putting a boiler on wheels was a good idea. Obviously rail travel had proven its value after the deployment of steam locomotives, but what were they thinking when they made that first step. But that was before I understood the canal era. Hand cut stone to make locks, reversing the flow of rivers, maintaining a level water depth 9+ months of the year. Compared to all of that, making a boiler on wheels work was trivial. And I also did not understand the the wagonways that predated steam locomotives, which enabled the development of steam locomotives in the first place.

[Toastie]

3 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Which got me thinking, what kind of idiot in the 1820's thought that putting a boiler on wheels was a good idea.

Oh yes - at that time most alternatives, along with the ever and rapidly increasing demand for almost "everything" (Homo sapiens on a roll), were really becoming much less competitive. For one, "military" and "expansion" was, is, and as it appears will be always strong motivation for some folks to deeply think about idiotic things. In addition, after all the medieval centuries of nonsensical pseudo-science, some folks were really at it; in addition to applied science came basic science (the stuff that just goes into books and tables, without knowing for what - other than having this touch of sophistication - that's what I do for a living ). Carnot literally developed an entire theory (Thermodynamics) to make steam engines more efficient (and for what did he do that? Yes, to make France win a war ... sigh), which was then further propelled by Rankine, Clausius and Thomson and others. Around 1850-60 a full-blown theory turned the steam engine simply into an engineering challenge. It was all there: Just make the "hot" heat reservoir as hot as possible, the "cold" heat reservoir as cold as possible and put a nifty mechanical machine in between. Without blowing the thing into pieces, which happened quite often, those days. Same holds true for steam locomotives, which became comparably efficient machines, outperforming almost every other means of generating useful motive power. Until the arrival of the internal combustion motor - just another fall-out type thing of Thermodynamics . And a bad one, I believe ...  

I have the LEGO Saturn V here on my desk. I sometimes think: What idiots would a) actually make such a thing and b) what idiots use an elevator to get to the top and then blast off to the moon, in hope to return safely. Oh well, what do I know. It is for the sake of our future, I guess.

Best,
Thorsten

[Ropefish]

well just caught up with this thread and wanted to add in my 2c, if anything the stifling  atmosphere most lego categories have don't apply hard if at all here... things feel more open and free? like I got out of lego's as a teen as anything outside of the box with modifying or 3rd party was looked down on or ruining the investment of lego. But for me lego is a medium in wich i can express more of my modeling skills bring a model to life brought through lego's own isometric restriction of pre-built shapes and make something really wonderful, Its weird but for me the restrictions let me  go further outside the box perhaps? I have committed a lot of lego war crimes, but I am not trying to win any official lego competitions or awards, I am just trying to ride that blurred line to make a train as realistic as I can while still staying on the line of it being "Lego" and share the joy of the hobby with others ( i might even end up going to an event at some point if i can! ). Just follow your head and build what you want with what you want, break things, glue 'em back together, Art has no boundaries but the ones you set yourself.

[Tube Map Central]

21 hours ago, Ropefish said:

well just caught up with this thread and wanted to add in my 2c, if anything the stifling  atmosphere most lego categories have don't apply hard if at all here... things feel more open and free? like I got out of lego's as a teen as anything outside of the box with modifying or 3rd party was looked down on or ruining the investment of lego. But for me lego is a medium in wich i can express more of my modeling skills bring a model to life brought through lego's own isometric restriction of pre-built shapes and make something really wonderful, Its weird but for me the restrictions let me  go further outside the box perhaps? I have committed a lot of lego war crimes, but I am not trying to win any official lego competitions or awards, I am just trying to ride that blurred line to make a train as realistic as I can while still staying on the line of it being "Lego" and share the joy of the hobby with others ( i might even end up going to an event at some point if i can! ). Just follow your head and build what you want with what you want, break things, glue 'em back together, Art has no boundaries but the ones you set yourself.

I suspect that a lot of us here have some sort of connection with scale model railways and, in that world, mixing manufacturers and modifying rtr models is expected. A Hornby Trains forum where people were barely allowed to discuss other manufacturers and modifying bought models was frowned upon would be a very strange place.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Tube Map Central

[allanp]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:01 AM, Kalahari134 said:

No, I'm very glad that LEGO are moving away from single-use plastic packaging towards paper internal bags.

I think the cereal boxes are fine for the smaller sets, and good as they sell millions of them. But for the larger more expensive sets I don't agree.

But I do have some concerns about the paper bags, maybe you could shed some light?

Right now, afaik the plastic bags are a single material, heat sealed recyclable plastic. They are also clear which allows you to see that one piece that didn't fall out, making you think they forgot a piece (every time I think they have forgot a piece I find it stuck in the bag). 

Afaik most of the Lego derived plastic found in the environment are the actual pieces themselves, not the relatively small amount of packaging. The multimaterial paper bags trialed were lined with plastic, so not recyclable, and even if they were not lined with plastic, they have to be sealed with glue that's also not recyclable, and when people "can't" (don't) find the missing pieces through the paper bags, Lego send out more missing plastic pieces via trucks, ships and planes around the world.

I could be wrong but, knowing how most companies value the outward appearance of being green and profit far more than actually helping the planet, I do question if paper bags are the great green solution it's made out to be.

You know like how electric cars are about as bad if not worse for the planet than combustion engine cars (when manufacture and battery lifespans are taken into account), only more expensive so we can't afford them? Kinda like that!

I would love Lego to say "Hey, we realise we distribute literal cargo ship loads of plastic around the world. So we would like to announce a new solar/biofuel powered ship that we will fund that will operate 24/7 pulling plastic from the oceans!". Now that would be something useful!

Edited April 28, 2022 by allanp

[andythenorth]

11 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

A Hornby Trains forum where people were barely allowed to discuss other manufacturers and modifying bought models was frowned upon would be a very strange place.

So the official Hornby.com user forum then? 

[Kalahari134]

21 hours ago, allanp said:

Afaik most of the Lego derived plastic found in the environment are the actual pieces themselves, not the relatively small amount of packaging

I'm concerned about my own waste. The pieces I buy don't end up as plastic pollution because they are almost infinitely reusable. The packaging on the other hand gets disposed of - cardboard through kerbside recycling collection, and the plastic ends up in general waste.

21 hours ago, allanp said:

You know like how electric cars are about as bad if not worse for the planet than combustion engine cars (when manufacture and battery lifespans are taken into account)

Actually a life cycle analysis will tell you that an electric car still has a smaller footprint than an equivalent ICE one.

Not that it affects me, my bicycle has a tiny footprint compared with either.

 

[allanp]

21 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

I'm concerned about my own waste. The pieces I buy don't end up as plastic pollution because they are almost infinitely reusable. The packaging on the other hand gets disposed of - cardboard through kerbside recycling collection, and the plastic ends up in general waste.

Actually a life cycle analysis will tell you that an electric car still has a smaller footprint than an equivalent ICE one.

Not that it affects me, my bicycle has a tiny footprint compared with either.

 

I do put recyclable plastic in the recycling bin, and I think we'll just agree to disagree on the electric scam....I mean cars! But you are quite right, nice to meet a fellow cyclist and they indeed don't put out much!

But back to trains! I've said what I'd like to see from the theme, how they can get my money, what would others like to see? I think there's more chance of seeing the changes you want become reality if we are much more specific and list exactly what changes we think would benefit the theme (both for us but also you have to remember Legos target age group as well), including reasons why. You don't have to be a Lego employee to come up with a good idea, share your solutions! 

 

[Kalahari134]

An individual wagon sold. Not My Own Train numbers of sets, just one individual carriage or wagon sold per year to supplement the main sets. 

And can we please see a steam train? Nothing fancy, not Creator Expert, more of a 65537 sort of set. 

[Chromeknight]

12 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

And can we please see a steam train? Nothing fancy, not Creator Expert, more of a 65537 sort of set. 

Can you imagine the level of whining here if LEGO did release another 65537 style steam train? 
No rods, no different sized wheels, just the basic wheel unit, detail provided by a sticker that isn’t even realistic. 
Lego would be accused of ignoring train fans. Again.

[Kalahari134]

44 minutes ago, Chromeknight said:

Can you imagine the level of whining here if LEGO did release another 65537 style steam train? 
No rods, no different sized wheels, just the basic wheel unit, detail provided by a sticker that isn’t even realistic. 
Lego would be accused of ignoring train fans. Again.

By 65537 I meant that it should be aimed at Creator market, rather than Creator Expert. Still using the large wheels (with or without rods included, obviously quartering is a tricky one to include in the instructions). 

[zephyr1934]

19 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

An individual wagon sold. Not My Own Train numbers of sets, just one individual carriage or wagon sold per year to supplement the main sets. 

And can we please see a steam train? Nothing fancy, not Creator Expert, more of a 65537 sort of set. 

I think Lego should do two things (1) make a 3 in 1 set of train cars, (2) make one of the city sets with an 0-6-0 steam locomotive

 

5 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

By 65537 I meant that it should be aimed at Creator market, rather than Creator Expert. Still using the large wheels (with or without rods included, obviously quartering is a tricky one to include in the instructions). 

I've actually figured out how to integrate quartering into instructions. When building up the frame integrate holes in the right spots for the pins, so on one side there would be holes right in front of the axle holes on the other side holes right above or below. Next, the instructions insert temporary axles in these holes. Next, put the wheels on INCLUDING over the temporary axles. Next, remove the axles and add the rods. I wouldn't say idiot proof, but far more resistant.

[dr_spock]

Didn't LEGO have quartering in the Emerald Night instructions? 

[andythenorth]

On 4/30/2022 at 8:04 PM, Kalahari134 said:

An individual wagon sold. Not My Own Train numbers of sets, just one individual carriage or wagon sold per year to supplement the main sets.

How much would you pay for it?  (Local currency of your choice).

[Kalahari134]

15 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Didn't LEGO have quartering in the Emerald Night instructions? 

Creator Expert though, instructions can be more complex in general.

[Kalahari134]

On 5/3/2022 at 5:17 PM, andythenorth said:

How much would you pay for it?  (Local currency of your choice).

Well the MOT wagons generally had 120-220 pieces which seems to point towards a price range of less than £15.

[andythenorth]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:03 AM, Kalahari134 said:

Well the MOT wagons generally had 120-220 pieces which seems to point towards a price range of less than £15.

And the bigger 10017 hopper wagon was 228 pieces, which would suggest around £18 - £24 for that.

I've been selling single wagons on eBay - both official TLG and MOCs. They do sell at around £18 for a 2-wheel wagon, and £22-£24 for a larger 4 wheel bogie wagon. The smaller wagons won't sell above £20 and the large wagons just don't sell above £25.

They sell relatively slowly, and it's the same few people buying them, 1 or 2 at a time, suggesting the market is not large.

Edited May 8, 2022 by andythenorth

[156439DMU]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:23 AM, andythenorth said:

And the bigger 10017 hopper wagon was 228 pieces, which would suggest around £18 - £24 for that.

I've been selling single wagons on eBay - both official TLG and MOCs. They do sell at around £18 for a 2-wheel wagon, and £22-£24 for a larger 4 wheel bogie wagon. The smaller wagons won't sell above £20 and the large wagons just don't sell above £25.

They sell relatively slowly, and it's the same few people buying them, 1 or 2 at a time, suggesting the market is not large.

Given you can pick up an entire 60051 or 60197 online for as little as £40 or £50 with all the running gear and track that sounds about right.

I think an earlier poster had the right idea where it has to be integrated in a way it can be played with even without a train set. Eg. a fire engine and sort of hazardous material wagon etc