10305 Lion Knights' Castle 90th anniversary set

[SirBlake]

8 minutes ago, iragm said:

But you're right, Lego is probably looking at the secondary market prices for a lot of figures and trying to get a slice of that.

They could do that directly, but the thing is, what you're paying for on the secondary market is mostly (with certain notable exceptions like rarity/low production) in the storage and handling. What I mean by that is, the reason a fig is expensive is that you can't get it from TLG anymore or it was only available in a larger and/or low production run set.

The most direct way to get their piece of the secondary market (or almost obliterate it) would be to over-produce minifigs and warehouse them, offering them for sale online as individual products. They could mark them up based on this. For example, a 2 year old minifig costs $5, 5 year old minifig costs $10, etc.

I'm sure there's a world of complexity to doing something like that, and they've likely deemed it not worth it, but speaking hypothetically, that's how you do it. Warehouse space costs money, but does the space for a single minifig cost them more than $1/year? I doubt it.

[Triceron]

29 minutes ago, iragm said:

I suspect they have - there's a new design of the torso that is less likely to crack under the arms.  There's also front and back printing on most torsos, as well as leg printing and dual-molded legs.  All of these things cost money, even if it's only in the initial design process.

But you're right, Lego is probably looking at the secondary market prices for a lot of figures and trying to get a slice of that.

The figures themselves aren't expensive, like the Black Falcon Torso and Legs together are literally $2CAD on Bricks and Pieces

It gets dubious when I look at them shipping out Vidyo products for $24 for one figure.  Granted it has some new molds and parts to them that aren't just a torso and legs, but the price disparity makes very little sense to me.  Even on discount at $17, Vidyo is abnormally overpriced for its parts.

14 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

I'm sure there's a world of complexity to doing something like that, and they've likely deemed it not worth it, but speaking hypothetically, that's how you do it. Warehouse space costs money, but does the space for a single minifig cost them more than $1/year? I doubt it.

That's the thing though... they don't even need warehouses to store that stuff.  They still have the molds.  Since they have full control of supply and demand, they could literally 'print money' by releasing new prints directly into the secondary market.

I mean, wasn't it like in 2016 when we got a re-release of the Lion Knight in a GWP set, in all its classic glory?  They probably just brought back the old print into production to do that.  That figure goes for quite a bit today, even as a reprint.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Triceron

[SirBlake]

16 minutes ago, Triceron said:

That's the thing though... they don't even need warehouses to store that stuff.  They still have the molds.  Since they have full control of supply and demand, they could literally 'print money' by releasing new prints directly into the secondary market.

I mean, wasn't it like in 2016 when we got a re-release of the Lion Knight in a GWP set, in all its classic glory?  They probably just brought back the old print into production to do that.  That figure goes for quite a bit today, even as a reprint.

Well, they do. There's a quantity they have to run to make manufacturing worth it, and it's likely many, many thousand units before it crosses over into the range of profitability, and once they do that, they have to put them somewhere until they're distributed. A little "back of the napkin" math and some Googling tell me that warehouse space costs between 60-70 Euros per square meter, per month. Disregarding the costs involved in production and the person-hours it takes to inventory, pick and fulfill orders, or what the material costs and salary for the workers running the machines cost, but you can see that there are real hard costs involved when it comes to manufacturing and storage. How many minifigs that are high value right now are there? Thousands? If a bin of them is just one square meter, you can see how those add up.

I'm certainly not close enough to the whole process to determine the what/if/when of how a minifig should qualify for re-release or extended release or whatever, but TLG is speaking loud and clear with their actions.

[Sir Dano]

I'm surprised they haven't tried out a crowdfunding approach to re-releasing desirable classic minifigures.

[Henry Bricklider]

Maybe unrelated to the current discussion in the thread, but, as much as I like 10305, I think I prefer Galaxy Explorer if we're looking at it as solely a remake/homage to classic System. I was really surprised by how pretty Galaxy Explorer was with regards to its really innovative build techniques which served to redesign a very iconic set and it is now my most anticipated set right now.

With the Lion Knights' Castle - I find that, as nice as it is - I'm less impressed with it because it's not directly pulling from any one castle of the 80s/90s. In all honestly, it just looks like a very nice castle MOC that doesn't do anything really exciting. On the other hand, there have been many direct remake MOCs of old System castles that are really impressive and I kind of wish that the designer(s) had maybe targeted one set specifically to reimagine.

[iragm]

29 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

How many minifigs that are high value right now are there? Thousands?

One problem is that as soon as Lego gives a clear indication that popular minifigs will be re-released, the value of all vintage minifigs drops immediately to Lego's price, and they lose any value they have as collector's items.  (I kinda see this as a good thing.)

The other issue is volume - a lot of vintage figures command a high price due to their scarcity.  Figures like the bluecoat/redcoat admiral or the forestwoman have a 6 month average volume of under ~25 sales.  Lego can't possibly make money from that, they'd need to move thousands of figures (at least) to break even.  There just isn't enough demand for that.

[Follows Closely]

43 minutes ago, Henry Bricklider said:

...On the other hand, there have been many direct remake MOCs of old System castles that are really impressive and I kind of wish that the designer(s) had maybe targeted one set specifically to reimagine.

I agree. This castle does not at all (maybe with exception to the lion knight prints) bring out any nastalja.

[eldiano]

1 hour ago, Sir Dano said:

I'm surprised they haven't tried out a crowdfunding approach to re-releasing desirable classic minifigures.

Could had sworn they looked into this whenever they did the LEGO VIP rewards questionnaire last year charging a subscription fee and opportunity to purchase classic sets I think. 

[natesroom]

4 hours ago, iragm said:

I suspect they have - there's a new design of the torso that is less likely to crack under the arms.  There's also front and back printing on most torsos, as well as leg printing and dual-molded legs.  All of these things cost money, even if it's only in the initial design process.

But you're right, Lego is probably looking at the secondary market prices for a lot of figures and trying to get a slice of that.

The overall price for a minifigure hasnt changed by much. On these older ones there wouldnt be any printing on the backside or leg printing. The actual plastic for the "new" minifigure is not that much more... but i understand overall pricing in general may have inflated so i can see the rise of the pricing.

Edited June 30, 2022 by natesroom

[Mr Maniac]

If LEGO does ever release classic minifigures on their own, I'll be impressed, although that seems unlikely, if only because CMF is probably there to fill the gap with nods to older characters (along with BAM stations and whatnot so you can at least get close enough). That isn't to say I wouldn't want old stuff re-issued and made available again, but, well, it'd be quite a (welcome) surprise for me.

Aside from this specific discussion, one thing I haven't seen addressed yet in this thread is whether the broad-brimmed helmets some of the guards/soldiers are wearing in this set are being released in Flat Silver. Because if so, that would be quite welcome, seeing how they were only released in two sets in very small quantities (which is to say there was only one per set).

Re-reading this thread also got me thinking about changing up the armor and helmets on my small Black Falcon army to distinguish them from the Lion Knights, and much to my pleasant surprise, it looks like that excellent Shoulder Pad armor is available in Pearl Dark Grey now thanks to the new Ninjago: Core sets! So I guess I'll have to pick some up and see how it looks on the Medieval Blacksmith knights (along with some new Pearl Dark Grey helmets for the soldiers and archers).

[natesroom]

I guarantee if they had some crowdfunding thing where you could get a minifig for 2.99 of the classics or like 4 for 10 i bet you they would have some multimillion kickstarter.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, Mr Maniac said:

Re-reading this thread also got me thinking about changing up the armor and helmets on my small Black Falcon army to distinguish them from the Lion Knights, and much to my pleasant surprise, it looks like that excellent Shoulder Pad armor is available in Pearl Dark Grey now thanks to the new Ninjago: Core sets! So I guess I'll have to pick some up and see how it looks on the Medieval Blacksmith knights (along with some new Pearl Dark Grey helmets for the soldiers and archers).

That’s huge news for me! The bright silver helmets on the BF’s never made sense to me, and I immediately swapped to pearl dark grey conical helmets for the regular guards and PDG kettle helmets for the archers. I’ve kept the silver great helms on the knights because I didn’t want to lose the shoulder armor, but I still don’t love the silver. Thanks for making me aware of the pearl dark grey shoulder armor. This’ll be a nice upgrade when I can get my hands on some. 

[woodford86]

I actually prefer the silver, I think the BF’s as they appear in the Blacksmith are my fav minifigs to date. I’ve been using my PDG gear for my green knights instead.

[MAB]

9 hours ago, SirBlake said:

The most direct way to get their piece of the secondary market (or almost obliterate it) would be to over-produce minifigs and warehouse them, offering them for sale online as individual products. They could mark them up based on this. For example, a 2 year old minifig costs $5, 5 year old minifig costs $10, etc.

I'm sure there's a world of complexity to doing something like that, and they've likely deemed it not worth it, but speaking hypothetically, that's how you do it. Warehouse space costs money, but does the space for a single minifig cost them more than $1/year? I doubt it.

That would be great, although they'd obliterate their core business. If you could buy all minifigures without sets, then their brick sales would tank. 

The thing that keeps secondary market prices high is demand vs supply. If there was infinite supply, then demand is easily satisfied. Even popular characters that appear in many sets and have massive supply are not worth much. It is only really variants or characters that appear in one set, often an expensive one, that are worth much.

7 hours ago, eldiano said:

Could had sworn they looked into this whenever they did the LEGO VIP rewards questionnaire last year charging a subscription fee and opportunity to purchase classic sets I think. 

They didn't say classic sets. Different people read that question in very different ways. My reading of it was unsold old stock rather than reproducing 10 or 20 year old sets at a buyer's request.  LEGO never qualified what it meant.

[Doddsino]

On 6/27/2022 at 4:43 PM, SirBlake said:

Let’s see if this works…

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfMOAECLwgr/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That blacksmith is ripped!!

[Hoth Rebel]

22 hours ago, Follows Closely said:

I have built most of the exterior of 10305 Lion Knights Castle with digital help from @Aanchir. I wanted to give you all an update with a few comparison shots. I very much enjoyed the build. I think it may be in my top 10 when I build the real thing.

Nice work! I don't know if I missed it, but do you have the dimensions (width/depth) of the castle when it's folded open? LEGO only provides the dimensions for the closed version. 

[SirBlake]

2 hours ago, Hoth Rebel said:

Nice work! I don't know if I missed it, but do you have the dimensions (width/depth) of the castle when it's folded open? LEGO only provides the dimensions for the closed version. 

Great question. I’d love to know that answer too. 

[DaleDVM]

Rehashing the set size comparison discussion.  A disclaimer...  Everyone can have their own preference(s) when comparing the size of different sets and MOCs.  There is no wrong answer.

Historically, castle/city walls primarily are not there to protect buildings from siege weapons, even if they may sometimes fill that role.  Due to the firing arc of medieval siege weapons, buildings have to be very close behind a wall to be protected by it.  Buildings even 50-100 feet inside the walls do not get much benefit from the protection they provide.  It is just physics.  Castle walls typically offer more protection to inner structures because they are more compact, where city/curtain walls often have a lot of space inside. 

The walls primary purpose is to prevent an easy assault of the town/city they are protecting.  They are there to give the defenders the advantage in both melee and ranged fighting which multiplies the abilities of defending troops.  The better the fortifications the greater the force multiplier the defenders have.

If you have ever seen real life castles and their walls, they are usually only 2-3 stories tall.  Buildings inside the castle walls, especially the roofs are often readily visible from outside.  Only the most impressive fortified cities in history have walls high enough to hide most of the buildings inside.  A $400 castle set is not going to be representative of a massive walled city/castle/fortress.

Here are a bunch of photos of the most impressive walled cities still standing.  In reality, most walled cities/towns were not even this well defended.
https://www.touropia.com/walled-cities-in-the-world/

Hence why I don't find the blacksmith that out of whack.  If it was a royal smithy, with several blacksmiths working there, the building could very well be that big... or in actuality be much bigger.  

[jtooker]

25 minutes ago, DaleDVM said:

https://www.touropia.com/walled-cities-in-the-world/

Awesome list, thanks for sharing!

[GeoBrick]

1 hour ago, DaleDVM said:

Here are a bunch of photos of the most impressive walled cities still standing.  In reality, most walled cities/towns were not even this well defended.
https://www.touropia.com/walled-cities-in-the-world/

I've actually walked on or seen quite a number of them.

[NoOneOfImportance]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:32 AM, Follows Closely said:

I have built most of the exterior of 10305 Lion Knights Castle with digital help from @Aanchir. I wanted to give you all an update with a few comparison shots. I very much enjoyed the build. I think it may be in my top 10 when I build the real thing.

Okay this is amazing. Also going to join the list of requests for a measurement of this when it is opened up, as I'm trying to figure out display placement for it. 

Also, the windows being positioned wrongly on Hogwarts' tower is slightly internally hurting me, haha 

[SirBlake]

28 minutes ago, GeoBrick said:

I've actually walked on or seen quite a number of them.

I’m jealous! Believe it or not, there are actually some castles here in Texas, but they’re of course modern creations, and therefore have a sort of artificiality to them. Kind of like going out for a steak dinner, and you end up at McDonalds instead, lol. 

[Lyichir]

For folks wondering about the castle dimensions in a fully open configuration, this isn't exact (and the exact horizontal dimensions of the castle will vary based on which part of the angled design you face "forward"), but based on the Stud.io file my sister sent me, it's roughly 26.5 inches wide and 15.5 inches deep.

[Triceron]

4 hours ago, DaleDVM said:

Here are a bunch of photos of the most impressive walled cities still standing.  In reality, most walled cities/towns were not even this well defended.
https://www.touropia.com/walled-cities-in-the-world/

Very cool to see the sizes there!

[woodford86]

5 hours ago, DaleDVM said:

Rehashing the set size comparison discussion.  A disclaimer...  Everyone can have their own preference(s) when comparing the size of different sets and MOCs.  There is no wrong answer.

Historically, castle/city walls primarily are not there to protect buildings from siege weapons, even if they may sometimes fill that role.  Due to the firing arc of medieval siege weapons, buildings have to be very close behind a wall to be protected by it.  Buildings even 50-100 feet inside the walls do not get much benefit from the protection they provide.  It is just physics.  Castle walls typically offer more protection to inner structures because they are more compact, where city/curtain walls often have a lot of space inside. 

The walls primary purpose is to prevent an easy assault of the town/city they are protecting.  They are there to give the defenders the advantage in both melee and ranged fighting which multiplies the abilities of defending troops.  The better the fortifications the greater the force multiplier the defenders have.

If you have ever seen real life castles and their walls, they are usually only 2-3 stories tall.  Buildings inside the castle walls, especially the roofs are often readily visible from outside.  Only the most impressive fortified cities in history have walls high enough to hide most of the buildings inside.  A $400 castle set is not going to be representative of a massive walled city/castle/fortress.

Here are a bunch of photos of the most impressive walled cities still standing.  In reality, most walled cities/towns were not even this well defended.
https://www.touropia.com/walled-cities-in-the-world/

Hence why I don't find the blacksmith that out of whack.  If it was a royal smithy, with several blacksmiths working there, the building could very well be that big... or in actuality be much bigger.  

I view the castle as more of a keep than a walled city, in which case the whole thing should be a large fortress and in that sense would dwarf the blacksmith (or even more accurately, the smith would be part of the keep itself, similar to that instagram post shared by SirBlake). For that reason I might modify the blacksmith into more of a tavern/inn, or just not display it next to the castle at all.