[CADA] CADA General Discussion Topic

[langko]

On 9/11/2022 at 3:11 AM, LvdH said:

Since the doors are the same as the Regera, I'll just assume the same "problem" exists here. You cannot just put the parts together and expect it to work perfectly. The gears need to be aligned properly, otherwise the door will sag like in the video. That being said it's still quite likely that there is just too much play for the doors to function perfectly, but I will see for myself in a few days or so.

 

16 hours ago, LvdH said:

Pretty much finishing off the chassis. The seats and door mechanism, and the chassis finally gets some rigidity near the end. The door mechanism works, for now. We'll see when there's actually a door built. The range of motion isn't quite authentic though. It's supposed to go completely vertical, but whatever. 

Thanks for the in progress shots and feedback, I appreciate it! From experience I think the sagging is to do with the backlash as well, even if you assemble it correctly. But I understand what you mean, its like building gearboxes and the like - if you press the gears too tightly between beams etc... you will add too much friction.

Interesting to see the range of motion on the doors. If anything the Regera opened too far (say 100-110degrees), where's this looks more like 70ish degrees. Which is surprising considering the mechanism is so similar.

Part quality looks more or less like what I've experienced too. Plus what's the go with all the instruction errors (and in critical places as well)? LEGO/CADA doesn't seem to make much difference lately in the regard... 

3 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

After all TLG is just as quick to pick up new brick designs and ideas from other companies as the competitors are from TLG (flip-flop beams is a perfect example)

I can more than accept TLG adopting the odd ideas from competitors when over 90% of those competitors parts are copied straight from LEGO

On 9/11/2022 at 6:28 PM, howitzer said:

Very interesting that selector part. It's obviously made as a workaround to the TLG's patented wave selector and it shows, considering the many parts and even screws it has. Must be much more expensive to manufacture than TLG's counterpart, but I wonder if this one has any advantage over it?

Definitely an interesting solution. For sure looks more complicated/harder to manufacture. How does all this effect the models they already sell? The Lamborghini and Ferrari both use the wave selector, are they going to start selling the sets with this new part? (assuming it even works with those designs?)

[brickphisto]

2 hours ago, howitzer said:

I have a hard time to believe the flip-flop beams had not been considered long ago by TLG, they probably just weren't seen as necessary or worth the production cost of another element before a competitor started dealing them out. Note that they are obviously not patented, so they're even less of a novel idea than the wave selector. What I want to see is a new, useful part that a competitor can patent, and thus force TLG to either ignore it (to their detriment) or to invent a similar workaround as we've seen from CaDA here.

And I find it even harder to believe that Lego had those flip flop beams before and did not try to have them design protected. They tried for even more obvious parts which were within the system and which other companies had been using for years like the 1x5 plate. So your argument is pointless since you could use it for any possible part design.

Personally I cannot care less about who designed which element before which competitor. But I do care for who creates the best models using a limited palette of parts. To me it seems Lego is being overtaken at the moment.

[LvdH]

32 minutes ago, langko said:

Definitely an interesting solution. For sure looks more complicated/harder to manufacture. How does all this effect the models they already sell? The Lamborghini and Ferrari both use the wave selector, are they going to start selling the sets with this new part? (assuming it even works with those designs?)

They should work as a replacement. The only major difference is that you need a 5 stud long space instead of a 3 stud space, so you cannot put a clutch gear on the axle of the wave selector without a driving ring extension. I’ll see if I can see explain it better with a Studio render later today. The LEGO selector can be used in the place of the CaDA selector. Just put the wave selector on a 3L axle with two 2L axle connectors and you have the exact same part, just in a different shape. 

[Gray Gear]

28 minutes ago, brickphisto said:

And I find it even harder to believe that Lego had those flip flop beams before and did not try to have them design protected. *Snip*

My words precisely. TLG even tried to protect the 1x5 plate which had been used by cobi for years already lol

[howitzer]

3 hours ago, brickphisto said:

And I find it even harder to believe that Lego had those flip flop beams before and did not try to have them design protected. They tried for even more obvious parts which were within the system and which other companies had been using for years like the 1x5 plate. So your argument is pointless since you could use it for any possible part design.

Personally I cannot care less about who designed which element before which competitor. But I do care for who creates the best models using a limited palette of parts. To me it seems Lego is being overtaken at the moment.

Tried but didn't succeed I believe. Which makes my argument valid, as I don't think the flip-flop beam presents such a novelty that it could be pantented. If it could, I believe other manufacturers would've patented it, which isn't the case as we know.

[brickphisto]

I am not talking about protection by patent but protection by design. Lego has some parts which are protected for specific lengths only. Protection for the same elements but different lengths has long vanished (like some curved slopes and brackets). I think changing an element's length is even less innovative than introducing those flip flop beams but still you can get design protection. But I guess we should go back to topic again.

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, howitzer said:

I believe other manufacturers would've patented it, which isn't the case as we know.

Or they deliberately took the other route: Just make a piece/solution openly public - an instruction is perfectly well suited for that. Have these available in EU and US.

At that point, it will be tough for competitors to do anything about it - other than making better models with these pieces than the competition.

It is a good strategy for companies that may not have the money nor want to spend any money on stupid patents. We are talking several tens of thousands of dollars per patent, should you want to take the several countries' localization route of a PTC application - which comes after/parallel to the patent application in the country of origin.

This is about a construction toy - a piece alone does nothing. It has to be part of a much larger build. Which brings me back to my view on patents regarding this particular toy world of bricks and pieces: Just make the better models. Whenever a new part surfaces, make it boldly public. And save a lot of money and legal bulls*it.

Best,
Thorsten   

   

Edited September 12, 2022 by Toastie

[howitzer]

20 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Or they deliberately took the other route: Just make a piece/solution openly public - an instruction is perfectly well suited for that. Have these available in EU and US.

At that point, it will be tough for competitors to do anything about it - other than making better models with these pieces than the competition.

It is a good strategy for companies that may not have the money nor want to spend any money on stupid patents. We are talking several tens of thousands of dollars per patent, should you want to take the several countries' localization route of a PTC application - which comes after/parallel to the patent application in the country of origin.

This is a bout a construction toy - a piece alone does nothing. It has to be part of a much larger build. Which brings me back to my view on patents regarding this particular toy world of bricks and pieces: Just make the better models. Whenever a new part surfaces, make it boldly public. And safe a lot of money and legal bulls*it.

Best,
Thorsten   

This is a possibility for small companies but TLG must think patents are valuable, otherwise they wouldn't patent stuff like the wave selector either. They of course also have the financial capacity to attempt to patent anything they want. Perhaps they even patented the flip-flop beams already in the 90's, along with other beams and thus the patent would've already expired? Hard to know without diving into the patent databases. And yeah, mostly patents on these kinds of things are pretty stupid, but sadly that's the world we're living in.

Of course the models themselves are very important, that's after all what they sell. For a MOC maker with large parts inventory it's mostly the new parts that are of interest, but they are a small minority of customers, which makes the model quality all the more important.

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, howitzer said:

TLG must think patents are valuable, otherwise they wouldn't patent stuff like the wave selector either.

Oh, absolutely, these are very valuable for TLG!

First of, they are part of their Patent Wall that others clearly tells: Don't even think about crossing this border, we will come down hard on you. Second, (now happened so-and-so often, it even seems on a regular basis, when wandering about in forbidden territories and watching out for alternatives) when competitors simply can't use a certain essential piece for certain essential functions - that usually exists for long in the real world - then holding that patent simply means advantage. Not because the patent holder makes the better models, no, because competition can't use it.

Well, that is part of the entire game of building a company in a market economy, and thus part of the basis of our current industrial world. And the reason why law schools are always completely booked out, each and every quarter/semester. And chemistry is not - in contrast .

Best,
Thorsten 

[LvdH]

And done. 

I might take some outdoor pictures with proper light. In the meantime, short thoughts:

• The build quality is excellent for the most part. There are a few panels that only attach at a single point but you usually won't break anything by lifting it the wrong way. There is a very stiff frame and most of the panels are fixed in at least 2 points.
• The functions are hit or miss.
  • The doors work surprisingly, despite my fully LEGO Regera's doors not working very well.
  • The axle lift works.
  • The opening engine cover and frunk works.
  • I thought the roof was supposed to be able to be stored in the frunk, but apparently not. Or I did something wrong.
  • The CVT works, shifting and driving the engine from the wheels.
  • The rear wheel steering does NOT work. This is due to several reasons:
    • Too much backlash due to the driving ring and 15 gears or so (out of the top of my head) from the HOG to the rear wheels.
    • Too much weight: this car has 4300 parts and they are definitely not all connectors or little plates.
    • The return to center mechanism: there is a rubber band to make sure the wheels stay straight while not in the higher or lower gears. 
    • The low quality of the wheels (or the hubs). This might sound weird but let me explain: I have had several times where the wheels would just pop off the hubs. Not good. When pushing the car straight while steered they will pop off and they’re quite a bit more difficult to reattach.
• The part quality is very mediocre.
  • Pins feel either very stiff or very loose. The DBG 3L pin is a pain to push in all the way, and the outer end with the pin doesn't have any friction.
  • LBG half pins are basically all with friction which I actually don't really mind for the finished car, but they were less enjoyable to insert during the build.
  • A bunch of parts came "stained" or scratched. This was able to be removed with an eraser but I've never had this with my LEGO sets or even used parts.
  • As mentioned, the wheels pop off from the wheel hubs very easily.
• The proportions are not quite right. Some lines are not quite right. I don't think it's an ugly car however.
• The instructions were challenging but usually quite clear.
• As far as I (and Dugald) have noticed, there were 5 errors in the instructions:
  • A57: incorrect orientation for the limiter, as mentioned somewhere on a previous page.
  • C35 & C53, incorrect orientation of a liftarm required for the axle lift, also mentioned somewhere on a previous page.
  • G12 & G55, #21/#22 panels swapped places. This was one I already spotted on the photos. These are the two vertical panels where the B pillars would be.

If anyone is curious about anything or if I might have missed something, let me know.

Edited September 14, 2022 by LvdH

[langko]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:12 PM, LvdH said:

They should work as a replacement. The only major difference is that you need a 5 stud long space instead of a 3 stud space, so you cannot put a clutch gear on the axle of the wave selector without a driving ring extension. I’ll see if I can see explain it better with a Studio render later today. The LEGO selector can be used in the place of the CaDA selector. Just put the wave selector on a 3L axle with two 2L axle connectors and you have the exact same part, just in a different shape. 

I understand what you mean with the clutch gear. The Cada version is definitely not space efficient in that regard.

Thanks for the thoughts on the Jesko! Look forward to seeing some more photos with the Regera. 

How long do the clamshells/doors take to open? Is it like the Regera where you have to turn and turn the gear for quite a while. Some of the videos I’ve seen are very slow, which kinda takes the fun away a bit for me tbh. It’s a shame with the rear wheel steering, that’s a function you don’t see much of so would’ve been cool if it worked better. As for the wheels popping off I’ve experienced that as well with the Centenario rims they sell. It got so annoying I don’t use them for anything anymore. 

With the roof not fitting in the front, that’s actually accurate as the real one doesn’t either. I remember watching a video on YouTube with Christian talking about the car, it’s to do with the triplex suspension now in the front, as well as the air vent/scoop in the bonnet. 

[LvdH]

2 hours ago, langko said:

How long do the clamshells/doors take to open? Is it like the Regera where you have to turn and turn the gear for quite a while. Some of the videos I’ve seen are very slow, which kinda takes the fun away a bit for me tbh. It’s a shame with the rear wheel steering, that’s a function you don’t see much of so would’ve been cool if it worked better. As for the wheels popping off I’ve experienced that as well with the Centenario rims they sell. It got so annoying I don’t use them for anything anymore. 

I don’t think it goes any quicker than the Regera but it does feel like it. It seems to go much smoother. My Regera has been built for 3 years (almost) so it isn’t really apples to apples comparison. So whether this is a time where CaDA pieces work smoother, dust accumulated over the last 3 years, more optimised design or just an error on my part in the Regera (doubtful) will remain a mystery. 

2 hours ago, langko said:

With the roof not fitting in the front, that’s actually accurate as the real one doesn’t either. I remember watching a video on YouTube with Christian talking about the car, it’s to do with the triplex suspension now in the front, as well as the air vent/scoop in the bonnet. 

Interesting. I wasn’t aware of that. It sure does look like it might fit though.

[langko]

If anyone is interested in instructions for the Apollo IE, they are up on CADA website for download. 

https://www.doubleeagle-group.com/cada-bricks/moc-v12-hypercar-c61053w

 

[brunojj1]

https://decadastore.com/en-de/collections/technic/products/cada-gearbox-jq9016

 

[LvdH]

They have been for a while  

You will need to make some very very small changes to build it with original LEGO and even more to build it in dark azure.

[astyanax]

1 hour ago, brunojj1 said:

https://decadastore.com/en-de/collections/technic/products/cada-gearbox-jq9016

Are those 2L pin connectors (JH3021) chromed? And if they sell those, why not also chromed elbow pieces? That would allow some cool tubing!

[brunojj1]

1 hour ago, astyanax said:

Are those 2L pin connectors (JH3021) chromed? And if they sell those, why not also chromed elbow pieces? That would allow some cool tubing!

Actually I don´t know, having seen them today first time. Seems not to be an actual photograph, but a render. Chromed elbow pieces - hmmm... 

[langko]

8 hours ago, LvdH said:

They have been for a while  

You will need to make some very very small changes to build it with original LEGO and even more to build it in dark azure.

Ok, I just hadn't seen them last time I checked and I had seen it mentioned here before. I know some people buy the set just to get the instructions so they can build it out of LEGO... No point doing that if the instructions are freely available. 

I had a quick look through the instructions and it doesn't look too hard to change it for the dark azure LEGO. Only thing I wasn't sure about was the 12L flex axle at the front... Does a 16L axle fit? That's the shortest in dark azure... What did you do in that spot?

[eric trax]

7 minutes ago, langko said:

I know some people buy the set just to get the instructions so they can build it out of LEGO... No point doing that if the instructions are freely available. 

For standard CADA sets, the instructions are available almost immediately after the premiere. For the MASTER series, they are made available with a half-year delay, as long as nothing has changed.

[2GodBDGlory]

3 hours ago, eric trax said:

For standard CADA sets, the instructions are available almost immediately after the premiere. For the MASTER series, they are made available with a half-year delay, as long as nothing has changed.

Oh, good to know! I'll stop checking for the Jesko instructions for a while, then

[LvdH]

7 hours ago, langko said:

Ok, I just hadn't seen them last time I checked and I had seen it mentioned here before. I know some people buy the set just to get the instructions so they can build it out of LEGO... No point doing that if the instructions are freely available. 

I had a quick look through the instructions and it doesn't look too hard to change it for the dark azure LEGO. Only thing I wasn't sure about was the 12L flex axle at the front... Does a 16L axle fit? That's the shortest in dark azure... What did you do in that spot?

There are quite a few normal connectors used that don’t exist in dark azure. Also some liftarms on the roof. And no if I remember correctly I just ended up cutting off the ends of a 16 long hose.

[shroomzofdoom]

It looks like they've been expanding their parts offering lately. Every time I check their web page there are more parts. On a whim, I order 50 of the CADA hard yellow shocks at $0.40 USD each. They arrived in Michigan 12 days later and the quality is just as good as Lego (80% cheaper too) Given the fact that TLG really seems to be ignoring the AFOL community lately I've moved hundreds of dollars monthly from Denmark to China and I'm glad to do it.

[m2fel]

8 hours ago, shroomzofdoom said:

It looks like they've been expanding their parts offering lately. Every time I check their web page there are more parts. On a whim, I order 50 of the CADA hard yellow shocks at $0.40 USD each. They arrived in Michigan 12 days later and the quality is just as good as Lego (80% cheaper too) Given the fact that TLG really seems to be ignoring the AFOL community lately I've moved hundreds of dollars monthly from Denmark to China and I'm glad to do it.

Question regarding the yellow springs. The picture on the Cada pages shows the pinholes in a 90° angle to each other... Can you confirm this?

[shroomzofdoom]

7 hours ago, m2fel said:

The picture on the Cada pages shows the pinholes in a 90° angle to each other... Can you confirm this?

That's so weird! I hadn't noticed that when I ordered! The holes are parallel as they should be.

The spring rates, size, and fit seems comparable in every way to the Lego original. The only subtle difference is that the top of the Cada shocks are not chamfered like the original lego design. (inset photo)

They are molded with a Cada logo which is encouraging as that implies a different quality than some of the junk that you can find on ebay and Amazon.

[langko]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:04 AM, eric trax said:

For standard CADA sets, the instructions are available almost immediately after the premiere. For the MASTER series, they are made available with a half-year delay, as long as nothing has changed.

Good to know, thanks!

16 hours ago, LvdH said:

There are quite a few normal connectors used that don’t exist in dark azure. Also some liftarms on the roof. And no if I remember correctly I just ended up cutting off the ends of a 16 long hose.

Yes but its pretty easy to look at the original model and see what he did. Most of them can be changed to black without effecting the look and its easy to see the work arounds for the other stuff. The hose was the only thing that wasn't immediately obvious... I was worried it had been cut, that's a no deal for me.