LEGO Trains 2022

[Toastie]

44 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

And DCC is just  the idea of bringing information and power to the same two wires, requiring no special topology like bus or star.

Absolutely!

I guess, this all is more of a philosophical type thing:

1. With wireless (named it BLE or whatever) and permanently powered track, you hook up a decoder in the incarnation of a wireless decoder, name it ESP32 (plus motor driver of course, sure). Or use a PUp hub with some minor extra electronics (bridge rectifier + voltage regulator).
   Energy transport = track, information transport = air 
2. With DCC you hook up a decoder in the incarnation of a DCC decoder to the track; this one has the motor driver(s) on board, but that is not important, from a philosophical standpoint, as you can hook up a tiny H-bridge driver to the tiny ESP board as well.
   Energy transport = track, information transport = track.

As air is not that expensive and easily shaped into any geometry, both approaches do work quite well, I guess. 

It is also a question of further required infrastructure for both approaches (DCC brain + boosters vs DC power supply and (name it) BLE Client + software and so on and so forth.

I decided on: What do I have already?

Quick question to the DCC experts: Is changing track polarity (Wyes, backloops) any issue for DCC? I don't know but I don't think so, right?

Best,
Thorsten

 

[Lok24]

14 minutes ago, Toastie said:

1. With DCC you hook up a decoder in the incarnation of a DCC decoder to the track;

 

You need something to encode and decode the signals. DCC with arduino or ESP is availabe, both for encoding and decoding.

14 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Quick question to the DCC experts: Is changing track polarity (Wyes, backloops) any issue for DCC? I don't know but I don't think so, right?

Sure it is, as the right track meets the left track at some point(s).
But you only separate the tracks at that point and then use some electronic to switch polarity within the backloop.

Some boosters include that feature already.

DCC can via the tracks locate the specific loco (RailCom) or the presence of any loco within a segment.
So automation is only a matter of software.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Lok24

[Toastie]

2 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

You need something to encode and decode the signals. DCC with arduino or ESP is availabe, both for encoding and decoding.

Well, than DCC has wireless on board! Cool.

 

3 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

But you only separate the tracks at that point and then use some electronic to switch polarity within the backloop.

Sure thing that the right track meets the left track. I am using RC plastic track to do the separation, as I am using 9V motors as power pickup and the wheel on one side are electrically connected - which requires the wheel distance as isolated section. RC track came in very handy - before that, I did cut the metal rails ...

Yeah, that's why I use the rectifier - it always keeps the polarity right. DCC decoders must do the same.

All the best,
Thorsten
 

[Lok24]

2 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Yeah, that's why I use the rectifier - it always keeps the polarity right. DCC decoders must do the same.

 

Not the decoders, DCC is alternate currrent,  but the booster has to switch polarity on track.
And as they detec the electrical short you don't any "long" isulation.

[Toastie]

2 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Not the decoders, DCC is alternate currrent,  but the booster has to switch polarity on track.
And as they detec the electrical short you don't any "long" isulation.

Ahh, I see! Thanks a lot!

Best
Thorsten

[Pendra37]

Yeah, DCC is weird. First the model trains were AC. Then the DC motors got good enough that everyone moved to DC. The the DCC come around which is AC again. So now the DCC track is AC but the receiver circuit converts the AC to DC for the motors. The funny thing with the ESP approach is that you can keep the rails on dumb DC because all it needs to do is to power the motors, lights, actuators and maybe the receiver chips. You don't mix the power and control channels. Another aspect where the ESP is more flexible than DCC. You can use your dumb analog DC tracks, power input and setups but still have all the benefits of a DCC system. The other one is number of receivers a system can handle. You are not limited there at all. You can create IP ranges to all the various objects and just keep on adding millions of new stuff. You can also send signals out almost simultaneously. You are not limited to have one command on the rails at a time.  
You can use IP, UDP, server-client or p2p setups, connect cameras, joysticks, whatnot. It is a well documented open system and you can code it the way you like.     

Edited January 28, 2022 by Pendra37

[Lok24]

11 minutes ago, Pendra37 said:

You can use your dumb analog DC tracks, power input and setups but still have all the benefits of a DCC system.   

You can't localize a certain train on the track if you have dump analog voltage on the track. And a bridge rectifier ist needed too
And a step down, and a motor shield ....

Which needs all space and costs money. Small DCC Decoders are available for app. 16,-- € ready to use
And: DCC is used for modell railroads, decoders are really small: 9 x 6 x 2 mm for really small modells.

So it's just another technique which has its  benefits  too.

 

 

[XG BC]

dcc uses a patern of alternatingly pulsed ac to transmit power/data to the decoder. for powering the decoder itself it has to be rectified first anyways to power the decoders microcontroller. the output then can be pretty much whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. some trains even use brushless dc motors to power the train and there needs to be a three-phase esc on the decoder to power that. so no not all dcc decoders output two wire pwm but most of them do.

[Pendra37]

The system I made used the basic ESP01. It is limited to 4 IOs (direction, lights) but the size is 7x4.5x1 mm only. I actually made the circuit the size of an AA battery. 

I don't fully understand what you mean by motor shield. Like a connector board between the chip and the stuff? Well you can use one if you feel like but not required. Since i had very little space, I hooked the wires up directly.

I didnt need a voltage step down because I used a small 3V battery to run the ESP. The whole setup was the ESP, a H bridge and some resistors.  5 USD total plus some soldering and it was ready to go. Complete plug and play units can cost like 20-30 USD thou.

I'm not saying that OMG drop your DCC out of the window because the ESP made it obsolete overnight. Far from it. However, if you have a dumb DC system, some soldering skills and want a cheap and simple way to digitize your tracks, ESP is a pretty good option. It also drops right into a 6 AA battery box. 1 AA is the ESP, 1 AA is the battery for the ESP,  3AA can drive the train (3.3V LiFePo3 or 3.6 LiIon AA, of course).

As for position of the train on the tracks, well yeah, it can't do that. If you really need this feature you can always triangulate the position. Turn some ESPs into fixed wifi beacons and send a signal strength check command every sec or so. You will receive pretty accurate position data back.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Pendra37

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Pendra37 said:

The system I made used the basic ESP01

Now I got you!

The ESP 01 board uses an ESP 8266 chip, which has an TCP/IP stack onboard + WiFi, is that correct? And then sure, you can use the various transport protocols. Funny enough, we use numerous ESP 8266 boards (the dev board type) equipped with pressure, humidity, and temperature sensors spread out in my labs. They are hooked up to the fire-walled university network - and within range of the building's Wifi/IP sub-domains you can look up the lab data. When you do stuff like ambient and even "closed" source atmospheric pressure ionization, you won't believe that some ionization mechanisms do depends on these conditions. Before we realized that, we were sometime totally puzzled when things went apparently "wrong". Today, when something is weird, we first have a look at the air "condition" ... 

When I read ESP, for some reason, I wrongfully assume we are talking about the ESP32 (VROOM) boards. With those (slightly larger than the ESP01 boards), you can also use BLE, which in turn is compatible with the current PoweredUp hub line of TLG. That was my reasoning of using them.

And yes, add an H-bridge, grab power from the dumb track (man, we now have dumb battery boxes as well as dumb track ) and off you go.

Best,
Thorsten   

[dr_spock]

There is also a WEMOS version of the ESP8266 board. It can be connected to a compatible motor shield.  Interestingly, the motor shield uses a STM32F030 chip solely for handling I2C communication with the ESP8266.  You can run a web server on the ESP8266 and let the kids control the trains at events through a web browser on their own smartphones (better for Covid protocols).  The ESP8266 can function as its own wifi access point so you don't really need to set up a wifi router.  Wire the module between your LEGO train motor and battery box and off you go. A simple 5V voltage regulator can provide power to the WEMOS board.

[Aanchir]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:01 PM, Stuartn said:

I don't think we can judge whether it was a success yet, as it hasn't even been out one month, many playsets are released after Christmas and there are always birthdays coming up.

Yeah, it's waaaay too early to speculate about whether a set like 40518 has been successful when it's barely been out a month! In general, buyers who go out of their way to get new LEGO sets as soon as they hit the shelves are the exception, not the norm. A lot of folks might not even know a set like this exists until they happen to see it on store shelves.

I wouldn't classify it as a "kids-only" set, either, considering it has so little play value. Everything we've seen so far suggests that it's a "souvenir" set like 40568 Yellow Taxi or 40520 Beijing Postcard — the sort of compact, low-priced keepsake that either kids or adults visiting a LEGO store while traveling might pick up without having to worry too much about the price or how much space it'll take up.

For that matter, nearly all sets with 40### numbers like this (seasonal sets, recent years' BrickHeadz, Brick Sketches, desk accessory sets, minifigure blister packs, etc) are primarily LEGO store exclusives or otherwise "limited" items — the sort that tend to be shelved near the checkout, alongside keychains, luggage tags, and "housewares" like water bottles or ice cube trays. As such, they're not expected to sell as well as general retail items like Creator 3-in-1, City, or Friends sets. But it does help ensure that folks stopping by a LEGO store will always be able to find something affordable that they haven't already seen in other stores.

So no, 40518 isn't a sign of microscale becoming the new norm for LEGO trains, just as 40568 wasn't an indication of microscale becoming the new norm for LEGO cars. It's just a case of a Creator designer who really likes trains (George Gilliatt) embracing an opportunity to develop a low-priced train set for the souvenir range. If it hadn't been a microscale train, it probably would've been a microscale airliner or bus or some other sort of transit vehicle. Would any of us really see that as a better outcome for LEGO train fans?
 

On 1/24/2022 at 10:29 AM, Pendra37 said:

This is what came to my mind, too. Lego should put big warning labels onto the box:

NOT MOTORIZED!

NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OTHER LEGO TRAINS OR MINIFIGS.

NO BUILD, PLAY OR VISUAL VALUE. Ideal companion to our Starry Night set.

They don't do this which will probably result some nasty surprises upon opening the box.

You realize that "minifigure scale" has never been a universal standard for LEGO sets, right? Especially in the Creator theme? And that nobody would ever reasonably expect a toy (even a toy train) to be motorized or electrified in any way unless it's suggested somewhere on the packaging?

It's ludicrously narrow-minded to think that the only reason anybody would buy a non-minifigure-scale Creator set is because they were tricked into doing so. There are (and have ALWAYS been) plenty of folks who get plenty of enjoyment out of building and playing with or displaying a toy vehicle, even if it's not extremely high-detail or designed to be integrated with a larger layout.

I mean, where have you been for the past two and a half decades of Creator sets? Because there have been dozens of other microscale sets during that time, which made no pretense of being "minifig-scale" or City-compatible. You build them, you play with them, and then you either put them on display or take them apart to build different stuff from their pieces. The same sort of enjoyment that people got out of LEGO back before the minifigure was first introduced.

I get that some LEGO fans only care about minifigure-scale sets and see all other sets as pointless. But there's a whole world of LEGO fans out there who don't confine themselves to that bubble.

[Toastie]

51 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

Wire the module between your LEGO train motor and battery box and off you go.

And this is where it is getting to the core, isn't it? DCC, ESP32, ESP8266 ... all work very well.

Is the train motor in your approach powered off from the battery box? Then @McWaffel will freak out. So again: Power pickup from the dumb DC powered track, rectify to +/- where it belongs, regulate the voltage, feed that into the ESP's batteries + power feed (for the motors), and let it do the work. Right?

All the best,
Thorsten

 

[Toastie]

50 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

But there's a whole world of LEGO fans out there who don't confine themselves to that bubble.

Wait ... it was about parents or grandparents not knowing what to buy as a gift for their kids or grandkids because they have already everything, wasn't it? Not about LEGO "fans".

I have seen these folks browsing the shelves at Smyths or Target - because it is "LEGO". With probably no real grasp of what that means other than: Expensive, thus valuable educational toy. TLG has accomplished that. And that's good. Their win. But there is also fall-out. And I believe the world of non-LEGO fans browsing the shelves for gifts (without any "mean" thoughts) may be much bigger than other fan worlds.

Maybe I am wrong - I don't know.

Best wishes,
Thorsten

[legotownlinz]

3 hours ago, Aanchir said:

It's just a case of a Creator designer who really likes trains (George Gilliatt) embracing an opportunity to develop a low-priced train set for the souvenir range. If it hadn't been a microscale train, it probably would've been a microscale airliner or bus or some other sort of transit vehicle. Would any of us really see that as a better outcome for LEGO train fans?.

The reason why it was negatively received was mostly the absence of any train sets in 2021 and the AFOL-oriented marketing.

And it should be clearly marked as not being compatible with City trains. Like boats that do not float.

[Pendra37]

I've seen some marketplace ads for this micro train set. The sellers mentioned everywhere that the train is not motorized, meanwhile the made no remarks for the other sets the sold. This makes me suspect that this question came up not once not twice. And after the negative answer, the prospective buyer was not interested anymore.

As a display piece, it is a big boring white brick. As a souvenir item, it is too big and totally bland. The assembly is as boring as it possibly gets. For an adult, it has absolutely no redeeming quality. 

For a kid, the assembly may be fun but the play value is non existent. A passenger train without passengers? On top of that, it can't make a turn. 

[Maple]

45 minutes ago, Pendra37 said:

For a kid, the assembly may be fun but the play value is non existent. A passenger train without passengers? On top of that, it can't make a turn. 

To me it's the LEGO version of a small wooden train.

[Lok24]

11 hours ago, Toastie said:

And this is where it is getting to the core, isn't it? DCC, ESP32, ESP8266 ... all work very well.

 

Yes, they do, and the simple point is: they are different.

BTW: DCC ist just a protocoll, the first digital systems could be bought in 1984, (Märklin-Motorola- protocoll),all others like  DCC, Selectrix, mxf were later.
And as a  model railroad has always metal rails .....

Its very simple, because you can buy the complete product, most of them have plugs for very simple installation. And programming of features via GUI.
A consumer product, why not?

14 hours ago, Pendra37 said:

As for position of the train on the tracks, well yeah, it can't do that. If you really need this feature you can always triangulate the position. Turn some ESPs into fixed wifi beacons and send a signal strength check command every sec or so. You will receive pretty accurate position data back. 

"pretty accurate" with DCC means, that all trains, nomatter how quick or heavy, stop auromatically in the station with in a range of <5  mm difference.
Of cause they al lhave load control, which can be configured in a far range by central or while driving via the handheld.
But @Pendra37: I've a dozen of M5 Stack Atom here ,

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Lok24

[Pendra37]

11 hours ago, Maple said:

To me it's the LEGO version of a small wooden train.

I'm not saying a small train can't be fun. I built several 4 wides but mostly in the cargo variant. Cargo transporting, loading and unloading adds a tangible play value. My trains also turn and are compatible with Brio wooden rails my kid can play with them on his wooden railroad. I made a passenger train but it is mainly for show and obstacle for the cargo trains to pass.

5 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Yes, they do, and the simple point is: they are different.

all trains, nomatter how quick or heavy, stop auromatically in the station with in a range of <5  mm difference.
Of cause they al lhave load control, which can be configured in a far range by central or while driving via the handheld.
But @Pendra37: I've a dozen of M5 Stack Atom here ,

 

DCC is cool and all but in Lego perspective, it is not working very well. I mean plastic rails are not very useful for DCC. However ESP works without problem so using ESP, you can digitize you plastic, battery run rails just fine. And as an added bonus, they will also work dumb DC rails. BTW, when I say dumb, I don't mean they are stupid or useless. They are dumb, power only, as opposed to the smart system that is DCC (power + commands).

As for stopping at stations, it is pretty simple. Put an ESP into every POI in a transmitter role. Then you can code your trains to stop when the POI signal strength is higher than a certain level. You can even play with the signals this way. When the signal POI is supposed to be red, it changes the SSID to RED. If the train senses a RED SSID over a certain signal strength, it stops. If it senses YELLOW it slows down etc. If it passes a GREEN SSID, it can send a message to the central unit that it passed a POI so your controller can send a command to the signal POI to wait 2 secs and then change the SSID to RED etc. Sensing the location is not overly complex with ESP. 

[TeriXeri]

14 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

The reason why it was negatively received was mostly the absence of any train sets in 2021 and the AFOL-oriented marketing.

But City, Crocodile and Disney Trains (official retirement date 2022) , and Hogwarts Express if you class it as train, were still sold during 2021 , yes there were out of stock issues for sure, but LEGO does not always make trains each year.

Ok Emerald Night, Maersk ,and Horizon Express were back to back sets, but then there was a big gap between train sets until Crocodile , and then some other sets inbetween like a re-release winter village train and a Hidden Side train aimed at kids.

Not trying to deny train fans but being realistic.

Biggest issue with trains during 2021 was the sets being out of stock a lot of the time, but global supply chain issues aren't LEGO's fault, especially when it involved the train electronics which are often made in other factories.

Edited January 29, 2022 by TeriXeri

[icemorons]

All this talk about DCC really is fascinating!   However, I think it deserves to be in its own thread where people who would like to know more in-depth about it may be able to better find and follow that conversation, doesn't everyone agree?   I highly doubt that whatever TLG releases in 2022 will have DCC control.   As an AFOL, the possibility of being able to retrofit a DCC solution to make running a Lego Railroad is something I've thought about in the recesses of my meandering mind on occasion.  This is exactly the topic I'd want to read through if I wanted to give it a serious look.

 

[Polarlicht]

One can only hope they do the Ideas Polarexpress, which just reached 10k subs! They wanted to continue Trains, so here you go!!

[M_slug357]

@Polarlicht The only stumbling block to any x-8-x locomotive being officially produced by TLG is how the steam drivers are molded in a 3-wheel pack.....

[McWaffel]

God forbid LEGO giving us a couple of spare wheels. Hell would probably freeze over 

[zephyr1934]

6 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

@Polarlicht The only stumbling block to any x-8-x locomotive being officially produced by TLG is how the steam drivers are molded in a 3-wheel pack.....

If they do it I could see lego wanting to turn it into a Pacific, the target audience will include many kids and it is hard enough to make an x-6-x work well on R40. I could also see it being more like the current Hogwarts Express