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42 minutes ago, Sunil766 said:

 

I'm gonna disagree whole heartedly on that one. Its just the smartest and most convenient way to run trains. Unless you give me an objective argument contra outlet/9v, there are none for me (maybe not being able to run two trains on one loop, but that's majorly impacted by the following). The fact that it's 2022 doesn't make it more acceptable for me that I'd need 18 f*n batteries to run TWO trains with remotes. How's that better? 9v is peace of mind. :pir-huzzah2:

 
 

absolutely, my 9v layout is my dearest. Its definetively the easiest. Its the constant trip hazzard and anoying wires from a child playing standpoint thats the problem, and the fact that toys you plug in the wall compared to easily drained batteries looks outdated when you are standing in the toy store if your not an train fan. Its outdated from a 7y.o’s and his office working parents, not as a afol train running product 🍺

 

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13 hours ago, Legownz said:

I already have with two of their models!

Oh my - you cloned a clone-model made of clone bricks with non-clone bricks? :pir-huzzah2: 

I was thinking about that - but then - hey, it was their idea (provided it was, I believe they have a dedicated "BB train-program" designer, but I could be wrong) - thought: The non-clone bricks won't stick together upon trying that out. Not true; they do, as experimental results clearly show. :pir-wink:

TLG is sharing freely their building instructions, BB does the same. Signed up (nothing to be afraid of - never get/got any ad or the like from them), downloaded the instructions of the model I liked - and liked very much what I saw.

Then looked at my brick inventory, then at the amount of money I would have to spend for the cloned non-clone version - and then - just bought their set. I must admit: It appears as if non-cloned bricks are a bit on the pricey side. Also, it appears as if making bricks has become a business, clones can also do very well ...

However: This approach is certainly a very good way of introducing a sheer endless line of attractive trains and train-related things (carriages, trackside stuff, engines, buildings ...) into the LEGO Trains 2022 program! If I had the funds, I'd do it.

Best,
Thorsten

 

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7 hours ago, Djmojo said:

And i ceraintly wouldnt buy something you need an outlet to run (its 2022 folks..) 

Wow I didn’t even see this at first but that‘s completely different from my POV. 
It‘s 2022. LEGO trains should be electrically fed and DCC capable. Batteries are a *huge* waste of energy and resources. It’s one of the most expensive source of energy per watt by miles.

Rechargables somewhat redeem themselves but they too degrade. I don’t think your battery train will run in 20 years time. But guess what? My 24 year old 9V train is running perfectly. And it’s gonna run perfectly in 20 more years from now

Edited by McWaffel

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1 hour ago, Sunil766 said:

Uhm... Which one? 4512? That's a riddle for me. 9v cargo in gray with green accents... 

Yes, 4512. I could be very wrong (colors and I ...) but the engine and one carriage body is made of old gray with some green bricks, isn't it?

I "made" (mostly copied) this PF version and tried to follow that "color scheme": https://uni-wuppertal.sciebo.de/s/lLmsX65l0m5QJOm  (navigate to 4512 MOD)

I don't know about the green, but I am an expert in shades of gray :pir-laugh:

All the best,
Thorsten

 

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12 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Yes, 4512. I could be very wrong (colors and I ...) but the engine and one carriage body is made of old gray with some green bricks, isn't it?

I "made" (mostly copied) this PF version and tried to follow that "color scheme": https://uni-wuppertal.sciebo.de/s/lLmsX65l0m5QJOm  (navigate to 4512 MOD)

I don't know about the green, but I am an expert in shades of gray :pir-laugh:

All the best,
Thorsten

 

I see. I thought it was the new gray, that's why I was puzzled. I share your sentiment towards error-free color recognition. 

Also, nice mods, especially the maersk, and also, nice and tidy folder structure. Reminds me of my uni days. 

 

PS: 4512 was the first addition to my train collection after the dark ages early 2020, as I thought it looks appealing. At that point I was still reasonable in terms of what I'd spend on lego train stuff. (and everything would still fit in 1 Ikea box) 

Edited by Sunil766

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18 minutes ago, Sunil766 said:

4512 was the first addition to my train collection after the dark ages early 2020

Same here! My dark ages came to a grinding halt in 1996. "Restarted" with an irresponsibly discounted 8485 (Control Center II), then 9719 (RCX, in 1998 - Fry's did not know what they were selling for less than $100) and then 4512 in 1999 + some additional 9V track. This "event" marks the day I started my "remote train control" project, still ongoing today ;) The original Toshiba lapop computer is also still there; along with my first QBASIC "control" program :pir_laugh2:  

This little thing really boosts my endless efforts - as it is an all-in-one LEGO "communicator": https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/188584-mulpi-a-multiple-lego-remote-protocol-interface/

I really did not expect any reasonable outcome when I started with the latter - but finally I have a simple "access point" to my PUp, PF, and RCX trains.

Thank you for your kind words regarding the file structure - I am still in my uni-days - for a couple of years.

All the best,
Thorsten

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2 hours ago, McWaffel said:

Wow I didn’t even see this at first but that‘s completely different from my POV. 
It‘s 2022. LEGO trains should be electrically fed and DCC capable. Batteries are a *huge* waste of energy and resources. It’s one of the most expensive source of energy per watt by miles.

Rechargables somewhat redeem themselves but they too degrade. I don’t think your battery train will run in 20 years time. But guess what? My 24 year old 9V train is running perfectly. And it’s gonna run perfectly in 20 more years from now

Lego should be making dedicated, standardized, easily swappable LiFePo battery boxes based on 26650 or 18650 batteries. LiFePo is light, does not explode and is environmentally OK. It can also hold huge charge and charge very quickly. 
I quite like battery based train systems because it is a pain to debug areas of poor connectivity. The power connectors between the rail and the motor should also be checked, cleaned on replaced on fairy regular basis because they constantly rub against the rails and can wear out. It is also somewhat hard to make Lego flexible rails with metal top. Also if Lego would be anything like H0, then it would really not fare well in a kid's room floor. You step on it, disconnect a connector and it stops to work completely. Then you need to debug to see where the connection broke,
You just need to use modern batteries and controller tech and battery trains can work much better than DCC. A few years ago I built a few H0 trains that used LiFePo batteries and ESP WiFi controllers. I could PWM it easily and use my Laptop or phone as controller for all individual trains.  

Edited by Pendra37

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You must have forgotten that we used to have electric trains in LEGO with 12 and 9V systems. On the floor in kids rooms. And it was nothing like H0 either.
 

All that we would have needed from there was PWM-ready motors for DCC decoders and that would have been the end of it. 
 

DCC is also fully controllable via computers. Phone, tablet, laptop, whatever you want. So that argument you made is also not relevant. DCC also allows you to electrically switch tracks and lights and sounds without having to run any cables. The power can be provided through the track and the signal as well. If you ever get the chance to play with a fully equipped DCC system, I highly recommend you do so. It’s fantastic

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49 minutes ago, Pendra37 said:

Lego should be making dedicated, standardized, easily swappable LiFePo battery boxes

Yes - and unify the battery compartment (not the electronics operated with it) or have two or so versions, which voltage and charging-wise behave the same. City/Technic/etc BE hubs, would have worked for PF, works for the dumb Technic bat box ... and that is solely targeted towards better use of resources.

However - and this will in my opinion simply kill it: 10 AA or AAA alkaline batteries sell for < 2€.  Don't worry about leakage because they'll be gone within hours of operation. I don't see the business case here (from TLGs perspective - maybe the battery boxes are even licensed from battery producers :pir-laugh:). The initial cost of any "electrified" set would go up significantly using Li-technology. It is too bad, that TLG has inflated the value of their many sets already to a level that is (customer-behavior-wise) astounding.

Best,
Thorsten

 

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Every regular DC motor can PWM. You just need to pay attention to the starting power level. Otherwise you end up with an annoying whine. You just need a chip that can control it.
DCC is cool and all but the price tag is rather steep and the form factor can be limiting. The ESP8266 can do WiFi, PWM for something like 5 USD. It cost me about 10 USD per unit with the bridge, parts and the battery to make a unit for a loco. I wrote the drive software also the controller software so the controller part cost nothing. No DCC box or anything. I made my IC unit the size of an AA battery so if I have space for 2 AA batteries, 1 is a LiFePo 3.2v battery and the other is the ESP module. Too bad the Lego battery box uses AAA and not AA.

I didn't go too complicated with the UI but I could make to use a dashboard image of the real loco and make the actual gauges and switches operate. So you would need to "create steam in the boiler", then "adjust the gauges properly" to make the train run. And then it stops if you let the pressure drop. Like a game in itself.
 

Edited by Pendra37

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4 hours ago, Toastie said:

Yes - and unify the battery compartment (not the electronics operated with it) or have two or so versions, which voltage and charging-wise behave the same. City/Technic/etc BE hubs, would have worked for PF, works for the dumb Technic bat box ... and that is solely targeted towards better use of resources.

However - and this will in my opinion simply kill it: 10 AA or AAA alkaline batteries sell for < 2€.  Don't worry about leakage because they'll be gone within hours of operation. I don't see the business case here (from TLGs perspective - maybe the battery boxes are even licensed from battery producers :pir-laugh:). The initial cost of any "electrified" set would go up significantly using Li-technology. It is too bad, that TLG has inflated the value of their many sets already to a level that is (customer-behavior-wise) astounding.

Best,
Thorsten

 

I try to stay away from single use AA or AAA batteries as much as possible. They are super harmful to the environment at every step. LiFePo batteries are not that expensive. A 3.2v battery costs something like 5 USD and is all around better performer than 2 regular AA/AAA batteries. Better discharge characteristics. NiMH AAA batteries go to 1.2V after a few mins and then the train will go slow, like it is running on drained batteries, LiFePo keeps a steady 3.2v until the very last minute. They charge in about 40 mins instead of 6-10 hours like NiMH. They have no memory effect, no issue if you top up half charged packs, you can keep them charged or discharged for a long time. And they don't explode like unbalanced or damaged LiPo batteries which is a big hazard in toys.
There should be like 3 different sized standard power brick with standard connection points and that is all. Then have a pack of 4 power bricks (3.2v each) with a proper charger for not more than 60 USD for the customer. 3 for the train and 1 for the controller. I can get such a set for smaller drones for less. Then Lego could say they are super environmentally friendly because they got rid of the single use, polluting throw away batteries. Also, if you plan to play more than 20-30 hours total with your Lego trains, 60 USD will actually be cheaper than all AAA the batteries you go through. Also, if I calculate the worst possible cycle rate for LiFePos (100 cycles) 4 batteries would still perform like about 1000 regular AAA batteries. 2 USD per 10 pcs, 1000 batteries would still cost you 200 USDs which is way more than 60 USD. Even if Lego sold such set for 200 USD, you would still be better off because, while the cost is the same, LiFePos work much better.
In my opinion Lithium tech is matured. Clinging to the old Nickel battery tech is getting crazy anachronistic at this point. Those batteries should should join the fax machines or the ferrit core memories and be relegated to the pages of the history books.  

       

Edited by Pendra37

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5 hours ago, Pendra37 said:

They are super harmful to the environment at every step

Well, I would not phrase it that drastically; The "Li" in LiFePO4 (or the many other varieties currently produced) is really what renders the technology less favorable.

I'd rather phrase it differently: The idea of using one-way electrochemistry for powering devices, which are sold in uncountable numbers (and by a toy manufacturer who, according to the profile of the current CEO, is going the green way) is ... questionable. The way of using resources should go in circles - everywhere. And thus rechargeable batteries AND recycling them after they don't perform anymore - is exactly that. 

The thing though is, from a purely financial standpoint: Manufacturing of alkaline batteries is and will remain dead cheap and for long. Almost everything in there is available in sheer and apparently infinite amounts. Zn - "less adversely" mineable (in contrast to Li, Zn minerals are found in big chunks, Li is spread thinly over the planet with some rare "concentrations", we all know the pictures. Mn is the 12th most abundant element in Earth's crust, again favorably mineable, and K comprises 2.4% of Earth's crust ... the same holds for the remaining ingredients.

The biggest issue with alkalines is: Most of these batteries are simply thrown into the household garbage can. The typical one-way and out-with-it thinking. I tend to call that Homo sapiens style or HSS.

Making Li battery based rechargeables is indeed affecting the environment much more than making alkalines BUT: They can be recharged - 500 to 1000+ times, equalling as many alkaline batteries. And this is where the former easily wins the battle. Plus: Due to their higher prices, people tend to think twice before they dump them into the waste bin. 

However, Li is not the end. There are just now so many less adversely impacting materials currently researched (believe me, this research area is red-hot, and the land with a mostly red flag has become one of the world leaders in that regard. NOT in cloning, but in coming up with new avenues) - I view current Li technology as bridge technology towards an even much better way of circling ("storing") energy.

Best
Thorsten 

 

Edited by Toastie

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I still fail to see the benefits of using batteries over DC power provided by the track. someone who thinks batteries are better needs to explain to me why they think that.

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10 minutes ago, McWaffel said:

I still fail to see the benefits of using batteries over DC power provided by the track. someone who thinks batteries are better needs to explain to me why they think that.

I don't think there's much point in debating the merits of battery trains over powered rails at this stage. As I understand it, the main reason LEGO switched from powered rails to RC battery trains in the first place was to keep up with changes in toy safety regulations. Even if powered rails are still the gold standard for serious model railroading enthusiasts, they are no longer a realistic option for a product that LEGO intends to sell or market to preteen children.

And it's not in LEGO's interest to have totally different systems of electrical components for different categories of product, either. Frankly, one of the big strengths of the 9V system at its peak (which also seems to be one of the core aims of the Powered Up system) was that the same type of wires and electrical contacts could be used for "powered rail" train motors, RC receivers, "light and sound" features, battery boxes, motors, Mindstorms robotics components, etc.

Even if a builder who specializes in a particular category of builds might have good reason for preferring an system of electrical parts tailored to that specialty/preference, it's not good business for them to have to maintain separate electrical systems for all those different use cases. So needless to say, they're not going to reintroduce "powered rail" components solely for the few train sets targeted specifically at adults and teens, and not applicable to any of their other electrical products, regardless of what's "better" or "worse" for AFOL-created train layouts.

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

Yes - and unify the battery compartment (not the electronics operated with it) or have two or so versions, which voltage and charging-wise behave the same. City/Technic/etc BE hubs, would have worked for PF, works for the dumb Technic bat box ... and that is solely targeted towards better use of resources.

However - and this will in my opinion simply kill it: 10 AA or AAA alkaline batteries sell for < 2€.  Don't worry about leakage because they'll be gone within hours of operation. I don't see the business case here (from TLGs perspective - maybe the battery boxes are even licensed from battery producers :pir-laugh:). The initial cost of any "electrified" set would go up significantly using Li-technology. It is too bad, that TLG has inflated the value of their many sets already to a level that is (customer-behavior-wise) astounding. 

As far as LEGO trains are concerned, I actually think it's impressive that the prices haven't risen further. After all, even the motorized 9V train sets of the 90s were not at all cheap, even for their time.

I mean, just look at 4558 Metroliner. At the time of its US release in 1992, it cost $135 USD — which, adjusted for inflation, is equivalent to over $270 in today's money. And that was without the speed regulator and wall adapter that you'd need to actually power it, which cost an additional $43 (or around $85 at the US dollar's current value). All told, it'd be like asking a buyer today to pay $350 for a motorized LEGO passenger train with a locomotive, two coaches, a station platform, and a loop of track!

Now, a strong case can certainly be made that there are a lot MORE of these sorts of high-priced LEGO sets today than there were in the 80s or 90s — and that consumers today often don't have nearly as much disposable income as consumers back in the 90s did. Even so, I can't say LEGO has "inflated the value" of today's train sets a great deal, considering how high the prices of motorized LEGO train sets (or for that matter, the prices of motorized, battery-powered LEGO monorail sets) already were three decades ago!

But your overall point definitely still stands. As it stands, the entry price of a LEGO train layout is high enough that a lot of prospective buyers are likely to be "on the fence" about them one way or another, and adding the price of rechargeable batteries on top of that could be more than enough to push a lot of those buyers right off. :distressed:

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3 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

All told, it'd be like asking a buyer today to pay $350 for a motorized LEGO passenger train with a locomotive, two coaches, a station platform, and a loop of track!

I can certainly follow your arguments, no doubts here.

However, the Metroliner was a ready to go train + carriage(s) + 9V motor + 9V track set. It had 11 minifigs and one 9V light bulb + 9V wire. I viewed it as an expansion set; once you had the done the groundwork (some 9V track + power supply + regulator from lets say 4561 ($130 back then, some believe ugly, I believe very high playability + fun, more importantly it had all the stuff you needed) - and there was no need for getting another regulator. Nothing was in my reach back then, not even remotely. But I did the "calculations". And dreamed of having it.

A 9V train motor is a piece of art and fantastic engineering, I believe. As is the 9V track. When you open up a 9V train motor and a PUp train motor, you'd be surprised, I bet. Maybe you have, I don't know. I know that this is called "progress". But in your assessment this is missing: What you get today is all plastic track, to a minimum reduced all plastic train motor, a BLE hub versus a rather complex speed regulator (again, open them up, possibly you did, and then just imagine the amount of labor required for assembling the two units). And take into consideration that current electronics is way more fancy and powerful, but costs "nothing"). TLG has simply done what everyone does: "Optimize" = reduce the production costs, and in parallel gauge what the customer pain threshold is, price-wise. For some reason, the latter is extraordinarily high.

You are looking (absolutely valid!) at the inflation rate for a particular train "set". I bet though that the ratio of cost of production of 4561 vs original retail price is by far less favorable, as compared to any of the current train sets. In other words: The optimization of the production process (of a "complete" train set) and thus significant cost reduction is not at all - in contrast - reflected in the retail value. And this is what I call inflating the price. Don't get me wrong: This is, marketing-wise, absolutely the way to go. No doubts! But, and this is my very personal fear, may postpone the introduction of comparably expensive technology such as smart energy management - as the financial poker game TLG (and all others) did and do, is already rather hot. And unfortunately may not leave that many options.

Also, there was (I believe what we will never see anymore) the option of getting 456X: X = 0: Just the train + motor + track; X = 1: 4560 + regulator + power supply (cheaper than the sum of the individual "sets"). There was a choice you could make. It was a bit of doing your own research and decisions - and optimize your budget allowances.

My "inflating" comment was also more generally tailored towards TLG sets in the lower price segments, which simply raise the bar overall. There are numerous folks out there doing the calculations - not me.

But again: There are so many perspectives - which is good. I like to think about diverse reasoning.

Thank you very much for your - as always thoughtful - comments!

All the best,
Thorsten

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2 hours ago, McWaffel said:

I still fail to see the benefits of using batteries over DC power provided by the track. someone who thinks batteries are better needs to explain to me why they think that.

Not everyone likes to hassle with trying to find the weak/bad connection in a rail system (a bane of my life)

Not everyone likes to hassle with the maintenance of the contact surfaces which keep rubbing against each other constantly.

You can forget the flexible rails. 

Without DCC, one oval is one train. If you want more, you will need to do your isolations well.

Safety factor, as mentioned above. 

DCC, ESP, whatever is not Lego. Therefore some hacking of the base system is necessary The Technic IR receiver can allow that to an extent but it has only 4 channels. 8 controllable units max. However, if hacking is allowed than anything goes. Just use proper US O scale rails, bogies and drives and then bolt some plates onto them. That scale is pretty similar to Lego trains. Actually Marklin did this exact thing for H0 scale some years ago. Best of both worlds I guess. IMHO, if you are a purist, you can't make a decent 9V system.

If I had the will to do something like this, I would use a AA battery holder. Place an ESP into 1 slot, then a LiFePo to power that. Then 4 AA LiFePos to run the thing. You can just drop the loco to the rail or even to the carpet, flip the switch and let it run. No need to do any debugging other than making sure the batteries are charged. It is dead simple. And if my son kicks the rails apart again, as usual (he likes to sit in the middle, jump in and out of the oval etc), he can quickly reattach the rails without issue. I tend to use Lego as intended, a play thing for my kid. Therefore nothing is off limits and nothing is forbidden during play.
This is absolutely not true for my H0 stuff.

Edited by Pendra37

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2 hours ago, McWaffel said:

I still fail to see the benefits of using batteries over DC power provided by the track.

There is none. Over and out.

Other than: Regulations, regulations and more regulations, leading to endless litigation regarding the use/availability/impact of such technology to unattended post 2010 kids  :pir-huzzah2:.

Best
Thorsten

 

6 minutes ago, Pendra37 said:

And if my son kicks the rails apart again, as usual (he likes to sit in the middle, jump in and out of the oval etc)

Nice! I like that.

Now, should he get a little older, and should he be willing to this one thing: Don't kick the 3 metal tracks in this particular section - called refueling - apart (or build it in a way that is tough to do so by playing with excitement), dream of a power pickup rail set, attach whatever DC voltage is required to that track section, roll your train onto this section, which then feeds your wide voltage range chargeable LiPo (as 8878 was) and don't worry about any power issues. Just navigate your train, at the end of wild rides to that section, go to bed and tomorrow morning - blast off. The ESP will be very happy, I bet.

This is what I do - however, at age 60.

Best,
Thorsten

 

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5 hours ago, Toastie said:

Just navigate your train, at the end of wild rides to that section, go to bed and tomorrow morning - blast off.

Exactly this!  :classic:  When FX Bricks gets their power pickups done, I think this is something to look into.  Several years ago I looked into adding DCC to 9V LEGO Motors and the issue I ran into was finding DCC decoders that would handle the stall amperage of a 9V Motor (which you need to do to run DCC without worry of burning up decoders.)  But again, that was several years ago and there are probably a lot more DCC choices these days.

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I have exactly one PF train in my lineup of mostly 9V trains (and the crocodile without a motor).

that PF train got one set of fresh batteries when I first bought it (at an insane discount). Set 60052 I believe is the number. It ran out of batteries on day two.

Then I put one more set in and it died the same day. I was so disappointed, I never used that engine again. Now I have replaced the PF motor with a 9V motor. Best decision ever. The batteries from my second run are still in there as dead weight.

I also can’t wait to see FxBricks release motors and power pickups. I’m gonna equip everything with pickups and motors immediately and go DCC on the first day of their release 

:moar:

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This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the topic "LEGO Trains 2022"

Could that please be seperated into a special thread?

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Way to kill the party @Lok24  :D

So let's get back to express our feelings regarding the 40518 and also why you hate it. 
I dare to say something positive about it: It is stil way better than the 21103 set.

Edited by Pendra37

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Let's bitch about LEGO not doing exactly what we want for the last 20 years instead of talking about the fact we are getting a new Train in a few months!

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But where else can we voice our collective disappointment...?

 

Also, what if the next train is in the same scale as 40518...?

 

What'll we do then...?

:pir-huzzah1:

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2 hours ago, Maple said:

Let's bitch about LEGO not doing exactly what we want for the last 20 years instead of talking about the fact we are getting a new Train in a few months!

:pir-huzzah2: I like the "bitch" bit very much - simply because TLG's first serve from the left (as seen by the receiver on the other half - yes, I played tennis when I was less old) - the 4 wide high speed train - was returned by a smashing topspin backhand into the far right corner ... for 2022, love 15 I'd say.

So all this bitching is really enjoyable - and constructive! I mean - one really cool (!) idea (@dr_spock) was cloning BB sets to get a decent 2022 LEGO set. For me, it does not get any better. Boom, we have gazillion 2022 sets. Doing the totally forbidden. I love it ... let's bitch on :pir-huzzah1:

Best and have fun,
Thorsten

   

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3 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

But where else can we voice our collective disappointment...?

 

Also, what if the next train is in the same scale as 40518...?

 

What'll we do then...?

:pir-huzzah1:

I doubt that. I don't think the 40518 was even a mild success. I still don't understand why release a kids only set out just after Christmas. Adults will avoid it hard and kids will not have any occasion coming up to get it.
But if I'm wrong the next one would be 4 wide, too, you can start making nice dioramas for them. (These are not mine but I really like them even thou they clearly have illegal connections)
29695549763_30e3a8566f_b.jpg    


17301244632_ff62dd80f4_b.jpg
 

Edited by Pendra37

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