Lego - Patent on the orange gear shifter

[Aleh]

1 hour ago, keymaker said:

Nah...I don't think so.

Why? If part of their model is protected by tlg patent?

[Lyichir]

Why on earth are so many people thinking this would have any effect on fanmade instructions?

The only thing the language of the patent says about instructions is not about building instructions. It is specifically about "a computer-readable model comprising computer-readable instructions configured to cause, when processed by an apparatus for performing an additive manufacturing process, said apparatus to manufacture a toy building element as disclosed herein." In simpler language, this is Lego ensuring that in addition to molded copies of the part itself, selling a 3D model of the part specifically engineered to be 3D printable (additive manufacturing) would also constitute infringement. I don't see why this would ever forbid custom instructions that merely represent the assembly process of a model, especially if those instructions are in a format such as a video or PDF that uses mere 2D images of the parts, rather than 3D object files. The absolute worst case scenario would be Lego cracking down on high resolution renders of the part in question, forcing lower-quality renders to be the only option for custom instructions. Realistically, even that is unlikely to be the legal result of this unless those high-resolution files are being sold on a marketplace with the specific intent of being used to allow users to manufacture their own parts. And for most Technic fans, buying the authentic parts from Lego or on Bricklink would be cheaper and more consistently functional than printing their own anyway.

[keymaker]

7 hours ago, Aleh said:

Why? If part of their model is protected by tlg patent?

It is easy - money. Attacking MOCers by TLG would be like Gillette, who offended almost all their main customers - men with their stupid adveritsement (if you do not know the case, google it, I recommend). What was the cost for Gillette for this action, we all know.

[Aleh]

1 hour ago, keymaker said:

It is easy - money. Attacking MOCers by TLG would be like Gillette, who offended almost all their main customers - men with their stupid adveritsement (if you do not know the case, google it, I recommend). What was the cost for Gillette for this action, we all know.

Definitely - money! MOCers will simply do not use this part in models, been built for license sale, imo.
Or don't you want to say they (we, actually) will abandone/ignore lego since that?

[TeamThrifty]

4 hours ago, Aleh said:

MOCers will simply do not use this part in models,

Why? TLG will not go after individuals... the whole premise of this thread is incorrect. Other parts are already patented and its changed nothing. Unless you're a large copy-cat company, nothing will change.

This is people desperate to bash TLG for doing the sensible thing - protecting their IP. Then in some kind of tabloid newspaper fictional spin, its been decided (based on what facts?) that moc-ers can't use it or they'll end up in court!!! Ludicrous.

Now if i were TLG, I would definitely introduce a licence fee for those who profit from it. Commercial use is very different to private use. You can listen to music at home with no concerns, but if you play it at a public event you're supposed to pay royalties to the artist. Software dev tools are free unless its for commercial use, at which point you pay a licence fee.

You want to use lego as a commercial venture, be a grown-up and accept a licence fee would be reasonable. Other than that, nothing will change.... 

[Aleh]

19 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

You want to use lego as a commercial venture, be a grown-up and accept a licence fee would be reasonable. Other than that, nothing will change.... 

I totally agree with you! But you asked  "why" and wrote the answer yourself: I can build moc for myself or selling the instructions with using any parts I assume. 
Commerce starts when MOCer sells license to his model, build from paten defenced parts.

Am I wrong?

And i think TLG do everything right with this - they invested in each new part and must own it.

[Meatman]

Since when do the Chinese care about patents or anything legal? They've been stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. I recall someone here saying that the knock off companies in China must take legal action against other knock off companies knocking them off.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Meatman

[SaperPL]

15 minutes ago, Meatman said:

Since when do the Chinese care about patents or anything legal? They've been stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. I recall someone here saying that the knock off companies in China must take legal action against other knock off companies knocking them off.

Since the EU is blocking orders at the border containing counterfeit and patent breaking products. For many smaller sets it may not matter, but for "flagship" products like for example supercar models, I'd guess TLG need to make sure those are on some "wanted lists" at the border.

There will be a lot companies that are simply too small to protect themselves and have time and resources to figure this out, but Lego has it probably figured out.

So that's why when you check out counterfeit sets on aliexpress, most of the time you'll see they ship without boxes, often without paper manual and you get info that it gets shipped from Spain or Germany etc. They may be actually shipping the bricks "loose" as raw material for production and packaging them for shipment in the EU and so on.

But this generally means you can't buy a neat packaged gift for a kid this way, so a significant chunk of the market is protected.

[Lyichir]

2 hours ago, Meatman said:

Since when do the Chinese care about patents or anything legal? They've been stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. I recall someone here saying that the knock off companies in China must take legal action against other knock off companies knocking them off.

I'd like to take a moment to call out the racism in this sort of statement—it may be unintentional but it is decidedly a problem I see over and over again in the Lego community. Chinese knock-off companies existing =/= "the Chinese" not caring about patents or "the Chinese" stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. Judging an entire culture by the actions of counterfeiters and bootleggers is not accurate or appropriate, especially given that plenty of bootlegs have existed from other sources and only have only ceased to exist through legal action.

While counterfeiting is certainly a problem in China, it is one that the government makes great efforts to put a handle on, and Chinese customers absolutely recognize the difference between cheap knockoffs and the "real deal". Certainly there are manufacturers and customers in China who don't care one way or another what the law says, just as there are ones in Europe or the Americas who see no issue with selling or importing knockoff Lego, but that doesn't make this a Chinese specific problem—quite the opposite, in fact. Painting the entire culture with the same brush as some sort of lawless wasteland does a disservice to the country, as well as to companies like Lego that participate legitimately in the Chinese economy.

[Toastie]

@Lyichir

a (deep, not slight) bow. Tipping hat - with a bright smile.

Very, very well said!

Best wishes,
Thorsten

 

 

[2GodBDGlory]

5 hours ago, Lyichir said:

I'd like to take a moment to call out the racism in this sort of statement—it may be unintentional but it is decidedly a problem I see over and over again in the Lego community. Chinese knock-off companies existing =/= "the Chinese" not caring about patents or "the Chinese" stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. Judging an entire culture by the actions of counterfeiters and bootleggers is not accurate or appropriate, especially given that plenty of bootlegs have existed from other sources and only have only ceased to exist through legal action.

While counterfeiting is certainly a problem in China, it is one that the government makes great efforts to put a handle on, and Chinese customers absolutely recognize the difference between cheap knockoffs and the "real deal". Certainly there are manufacturers and customers in China who don't care one way or another what the law says, just as there are ones in Europe or the Americas who see no issue with selling or importing knockoff Lego, but that doesn't make this a Chinese specific problem—quite the opposite, in fact. Painting the entire culture with the same brush as some sort of lawless wasteland does a disservice to the country, as well as to companies like Lego that participate legitimately in the Chinese economy.

I agree with you that the Chinese are no worse Europeans or Americans in that many people from all these countries don't care about morals so long as they make money (Us Canadians, though, are perfect. ), but I find it hard to believe that their government is really making "great efforts to put a handle on" it. After all, my understanding is that they are one of the most powerful governments, with among the most control over the economy of any country in the world today. I think it's more likely that the government claims to hate the knock-offs, but makes no effort to stop them, allowing the natural human impulse to take the "route of least resistance" to flourish in knock-offs.

I'm no geopolitical analyst, though, and could absolutely be wrong!

[iLego]

Chinese government has been actively encouraging copying of successful non-Chinese products for years. And it's not limited to toy market alone. Many years ago, FBI had raided a Chinese national working in Lucent who had been secretly sending IP to Huawei. They found his basement full of unauthorised Lucent routers, which he had been systematically reverse-engineering from. I know of this first hand since this was a colleague's friend.

Huawei also stole software from Cisco, to the extent that some Huawei routers would give an error message to contact Cisco support 

What is pertinent is that Huawei was doing this for years with support of the Chinese government.

Today Huawei is one of the top telecom companies in the world and it is a leader in some tech segments.

This is the path for many Chinese industries. They took the shortcut path until they became big and successful enough to run a legitimate business.

This is why there is resentment against China. Problem is the non-democratic setup there, which prevents any legal fights (by outsiders) against unethical practices.

Over time, the government in China understood the image issue, and started to crack down on malpractices. But the crackdown is still very much selective and based on convenience.

We say that Cada is a legitimate business, but many on the forum are not comfortable with it, since it is a culmination of many years of unethical business. Cada sources it's bricks from another company which is essentially riding on the shoulders of others who created the ecosystem via unfair means.

So, it is clearly not about the Chinese people or culture, which is no worse/better morally than other countries. The problem is the non-democratic government.

 

[Ullum Zurt]

7 hours ago, Lyichir said:

I'd like to take a moment to call out the racism in this sort of statement—it may be unintentional but it is decidedly a problem I see over and over again in the Lego community. Chinese knock-off companies existing =/= "the Chinese" not caring about patents or "the Chinese" stealing and reproducing millions of items for years. Judging an entire culture by the actions of counterfeiters and bootleggers is not accurate or appropriate, especially given that plenty of bootlegs have existed from other sources and only have only ceased to exist through legal action.

While counterfeiting is certainly a problem in China, it is one that the government makes great efforts to put a handle on, and Chinese customers absolutely recognize the difference between cheap knockoffs and the "real deal". Certainly there are manufacturers and customers in China who don't care one way or another what the law says, just as there are ones in Europe or the Americas who see no issue with selling or importing knockoff Lego, but that doesn't make this a Chinese specific problem—quite the opposite, in fact. Painting the entire culture with the same brush as some sort of lawless wasteland does a disservice to the country, as well as to companies like Lego that participate legitimately in the Chinese economy.

Very well said.

It is no different to a certain ex-president's insensitive references to the source of a particular virus.

[MangaNOID]

On 9/30/2021 at 1:41 PM, keymaker said:

It is easy - money. Attacking MOCers by TLG would be like Gillette, who offended almost all their main customers - men with their stupid adveritsement (if you do not know the case, google it, I recommend). What was the cost for Gillette for this action, we all know.

I just googled the add. 
what a great advert! All this blokey bravado sexist crap that goes on is tiresome. Especially here in Aus. Good on Gellette to say get over this. Time to move on in humanity. Equall rights, non harassment FTW! 

Nothing to say regarding the thing about that LEGO thing 

[brunojj1]

@amorti Maybe it´s time to close this useless topic and let it R.I.P.

[doug72]

34 minutes ago, brunojj1 said:

@amorti Maybe it´s time to close this useless topic and let it R.I.P.

Agree this topic has become boring and clogging up the front page.

[amorti]

6 hours ago, brunojj1 said:

@amorti Maybe it´s time to close this useless topic and let it R.I.P.

Oh, it got a bit crazy in here since I last looked in.

Not sure I can close things but @Milan please go ahead if you prefer it gone.

Kind of a shame though, since no one yet mentioned the container of CaDA goods being held in Germany due to a rights infringement claim from Lego. Based in part on the 3*3 plate... Which they already surrendered their design claim on when it was challenged by Steingemachtes.