Lego David

[Poll] Do you like LEGO as a company?

[Poll] Do you like LEGO as a company?  

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  1. 1. Do you like LEGO as a company?



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Certainly No. Ultimately they are just as good or bad as any other big con-glo-mo. They can beat about the bush all they about being a family company, their traditions and values, environmental activism, inclusivity and whatnot, but at the end of the day this is just a nice list of buzzwords that looks nice in a shareholder report. Every big corporation does it, but at the same time they all still make hundreds of dollars for every single penny they donate to a benevolent cause. It's just how it is with these things. Big companies are not what you would want as a "friend" if they were real people...

Mylenium

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16 hours ago, jimmynick said:

Wow I love it when I go to the LEGO store, make it clear I’m not going to buy anything, and get treated like royalty the whole time I’m there. Sometimes they give me a foot massage and even apologize that they can’t offer free shipping at a brick-and-mortar shop.

Loving your work. 

6 hours ago, allanp said:

I am mixed. I like that they listen to fans for their sets but I wish they would stay out of politics entirely.

Question - how do you do that, exactly? 

5 hours ago, allanp said:

I think inclusion of women police officers and gay people in the queer eye set for example is great and I don't see those examples as political. But I would say the rainbow coloured EIA set (with its intro in the instructions), stopping marketing of police sets and supporting BLM are too political.

Oh okay, so you just want them to have the same politics as you. 

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2 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm not being funny here, but why would you expect the staff to go over to you if, as you say, you regularly go to the shop but never spend, enough so that they recognise you? Lego shops are usually busy - I've never been in one that had less customers than staff - so they can't physically go over to every single customer right away. It's a better use of everybody's time if they prioritise customers who are actually looking to purchase over someone who's just there to price-check.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you'd need to go to the physical store to price-check. Lego Shops charge the same as Shop@Home, right?

1. Lego stores aren't usually super busy here while on the contrary, a lot of time there are more staff than customers. He was attempting to imply that "super friendly" staff was to Lego's credit but this is certainly not true.

2. I go to Lego stores to see if there is any deal compared to other sources I buy Lego (I know they could have deals but it's not so often, and not always broadly informed. so I need to go to check it whenever I am free or pass by)

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6 hours ago, timemail said:

I had to put no. I like the products, the quality is ok, the service is certainly good (although with the price I pay I expect that). Every time I have received damaged pieces, damaged stickers etc. I have no trouble with getting replacements although I would prefer not to get damaged items. I have never had missing items.

The no for me came down to me deciding whether I would be friends with Lego if they were a person. I think that they try to show that they are socially responsible however many of their marketing decisions are certainly not socially responsible in my opinion. E.g. The use of blind bags/blind boxes to encourage gambling / gotta get them all mentality in children, and taking advantage of those who are completeists. This is similar to the inclusion of unique mini-figures in expensive sets. The release of limited edition, reduced number collector style sets. VIP sets either in numbers that don't allow those that want them to get them - I understand not having these available for a long time, but mere hours or minutes is not acceptable.

This sort of behaviour seems really hypocritical to me. They really are focused on the bottom line, and exclusivity at the expense of fans. I have no issues with them doing that as a company - if I was the company I would likely be doing the same as the purpose of a company is to make money, regardless of how they choose to market themselves. It does make me think that all of their social responsibility is there to garner favour and appear to be doing good to ultimately bolster their profits. I don't doubt there are many socially responsible people working at Lego, however in the end they are a company and there for profit not to be our friends.

You must not like any collectible product much then...trading cards are blind bags. Hot Wheels does the Treasure Hunts, Funko! has exclusives in what feels like 80 different places, & many, many companies do con type exclusives. 

I don’t get the gambling argument...I guess it’s the chance aspect? I don’t get the “gotta get them all” bit either...what kid doesn’t want all of X figures? When I was a kid, G.I. Joe, He-Man, Thundercats, TMNT...I certainly wanted all of those. I even grew up with Trash Bag Bunch blind bag toys. 

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As a company... I'd say they're more ethical than most huge corporations. And the reason is, if you ask me: That they're privately held. Being privately held doesn't in itself cause a company to behave more ethically, but I think it's a prerequisite. I generally like their level of do-gooder spirit; they have some, but, it's not all-consuming, or over the top. I'm not asking for them to have zero net carbon footprint, or advocate for every good cause, or donate 90% of profits to some starving-orphans charity.

But I do have to complain about various things. First, a venial sin of incompetence: Lego is not good at making websites. Now, I do recognize that their website-making challenge is very very difficult, given their large range of products (but is it more difficult than Amazon's or Wal-Mart's or Hasbro's?), and in some ways they go above and beyond, like offering Bricks & Pieces at all. So for example I won't complain at all about the B&P interface being janky and asking you to type in part/set numbers. But... Their website is generally unreliable, and slow, and just... It just feels like various of the modern web-design problems, smushed together. It's just not good. They're wizards in ABS, but barbarians in silicon. And I can't really excuse it as "Well they're just a family-owned company" or anything; they're the biggest toymaker in the world, or close to it. I should expect from them a top-notch website.

Next, a mortal sin of malice: They are/were an IP troll, suing their competitors in un-meritorious ways, in order to try to be more of a monopoly. Like when their patent ran out for brick designs, and they sued under trademark! This is not a small thing! Apparently my affection for Lego runs deep enough that I have forgiven them for this, but, I do have to mention it! Being an IP troll is a serious offense! It's much worse than merely being bad at web design! Yes, it's much less evil than what many other huge companies get up to. But it's still pretty bad!

So, overall, a mixed grade. Oh, and I'll hit them with their own "Only the best is good enough" 'til the cows come home over color-consistency issues. But that's a waaay lesser offense than being an IP troll. And maybe that's even too product-oriented for this thread.

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11 hours ago, Vindicare said:

You must not like any collectible product much then...trading cards are blind bags. Hot Wheels does the Treasure Hunts, Funko! has exclusives in what feels like 80 different places, & many, many companies do con type exclusives. 

I don’t get the gambling argument...I guess it’s the chance aspect? I don’t get the “gotta get them all” bit either...what kid doesn’t want all of X figures? When I was a kid, G.I. Joe, He-Man, Thundercats, TMNT...I certainly wanted all of those. I even grew up with Trash Bag Bunch blind bag toys. 

Probably didn't explain it too well but yes the gambling aspect is the chance. The fact that for blind bags buying multiples you are likely to get doubles, or if you only want one particular item it is a low chance you will get it. The blind bags increase the cost to get them all (without trading or buying from third parties - not everyone kids especially can feel for what they want). It is designed to suck money from people. Yes they will pay but many would rather just get what they want without having to buy the extras due to chance (there would also be many I'm sure where the thrill of the hunt is the purpose though).

I don't have an issue with collecting them all except for the exclusivity of it. I would rather people be able to get what they want at a reasonable price. When it comes to something like (for example) a Joker minifigure - all the small sets have the same figure and the UCS will have an exclusive. This doesn't help a consumer (especially children) but does help the company - I expect companies to do this but I don't like it. Making the exclusive figure available in a cheap set also would do this, but would lessen the value of the UCS. I see this as profit over people.

Yep - I do feel the same way about all companies doing this including trading cards, con-exclusives etc. Not expecting it to change, if I ran a company I would do the same as it makes money. The big difference with Lego is that it seems quite hypocritical from a company that tries to appear to be socially responsible and I see this as a disconnect.

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6 minutes ago, timemail said:

I don't have an issue with collecting them all except for the exclusivity of it. I would rather people be able to get what they want at a reasonable price. When it comes to something like (for example) a Joker minifigure - all the small sets have the same figure and the UCS will have an exclusive. This doesn't help a consumer (especially children) but does help the company - I expect companies to do this but I don't like it. Making the exclusive figure available in a cheap set also would do this, but would lessen the value of the UCS. I see this as profit over people..

I don't mind this at all. In fact, I think it is a good idea. The large, adult aimed, collector sets get an exclusive figure which makes it more attractive than it would be without anything exclusive. But the kids also get a Joker minifig in cheap sets. An alternative is to only do a popular character such as Joker in the large set. That is far worse for kids. 

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2 minutes ago, MAB said:

I don't mind this at all. In fact, I think it is a good idea. The large, adult aimed, collector sets get an exclusive figure which makes it more attractive than it would be without anything exclusive. But the kids also get a Joker minifig in cheap sets. An alternative is to only do a popular character such as Joker in the large set. That is far worse for kids. 

Seriously? Granted, I never understood some of the craziness of collecting minifigs and UCS nor am I financially in a position to play the game, but I like to think that when you buy a 2500+ pieces set that minifigure only represents a fraction of the value even if it may be sold for 20 Euro on Bricklink. Even assuming I actually had the money and was into chasing down exclusive figs that would be the least of my considerations and my stance on the matter wouldn't be much different: It feels like a scammy ploy to get people to buy stuff. It's as shady as loot boxes in games, rare cards and whatever you can imagine along those lines.

Mylenium

4 hours ago, Flak Maniak said:

Next, a mortal sin of malice: They are/were an IP troll, suing their competitors in un-meritorious ways, in order to try to be more of a monopoly. Like when their patent ran out for brick designs, and they sued under trademark! This is not a small thing!

They absolutely are and continue to be. Just look how many designs they registered in recent months, including their much laughed-at attempt to do so for the five-studded plate some of their competitors had for years. A lot of it feels like they are merely doing it out of spite to force their competitors to invest extra effort and work around what otherwise would be straightforward "obvious" technical solutions.

Mylenium

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8 minutes ago, Mylenium said:

Seriously? Granted, I never understood some of the craziness of collecting minifigs and UCS nor am I financially in a position to play the game, but I like to think that when you buy a 2500+ pieces set that minifigure only represents a fraction of the value even if it may be sold for 20 Euro on Bricklink. Even assuming I actually had the money and was into chasing down exclusive figs that would be the least of my considerations and my stance on the matter wouldn't be much different: It feels like a scammy ploy to get people to buy stuff. It's as shady as loot boxes in games, rare cards and whatever you can imagine along those lines.

 

Yes. I am absolutely serious. I don't think a company putting an exclusive printed figure into an expensive set is that big a deal, when they make the same character with a different print widely available in cheap sets. I would have much more of an issue with it if a popular character was only available in an expensive set. 

Nobody needs to have all variants of all figures. And if a collector decides they want them all, they will need to realise some are more difficult to get hold of. 

If LEGO had to make sure all versions of all figures were available in cheap sets, then in this scenario they would probably just make one version of Joker. The big set would just get the common version. Customers / collectors miss out as there is no incentive for lego to make exclusive figures for adult targeted sets.

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14 hours ago, williejm said:

 

Oh okay, so you just want them to have the same politics as you. 

No Mr edge lord I clearly said no politics at all. I don't think a religious bakery should be forced to sell a product they don't offer, but if Lego was to sell a set outwardly in support of that view I would be very concerned by that.

Things aren't black and white. You can't just simplify the world to make people you don't agree with "the bad guy". Whilst you may disagree there's usually reasons behind their world view that you are unaware of. But Lego is predominantly a toy company with massive influence over children, and children just aren't yet equipped with enough worldly experience and logical reasoning skills to fully appreciate both sides of the story. You ever notice how younger people are more idealistic and left wing while older people tend to lean more to the right? To make political statements to them as a major and influential corporation is basically brainwashing, and I wouldn't want children to be brainwashed into even my own world views.

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1 hour ago, MAB said:

Nobody needs to have all variants of all figures. And if a collector decides they want them all, they will need to realise some are more difficult to get hold of.

I agree with this. One could argue that dispatching popular minifigs across expensive sets has progressively become a commercial tactic to raise customers' expenses, but it should be checked with statistics over a long period of time.

In any case, anyone starting a collection should understand what it means, and even what it could mean in the long run.

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As for my own (actual) opinion, I don't really have one. LEGO isn't my friend but at the same time I don't think they're egregiously badly behaved. I like some of the sets they produce, so I buy some of them. I don't like some of the other sets, so I don't buy those :def_shrug:. No need for a parasocial attachment to a large capitalist institution.

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7 hours ago, MAB said:

Yes. I am absolutely serious. I don't think a company putting an exclusive printed figure into an expensive set is that big a deal, when they make the same character with a different print widely available in cheap sets. I would have much more of an issue with it if a popular character was only available in an expensive set. 

An example of this taken to the extreme is Lando in the early years of the Star Wars line - in the first ten years of the theme he was only released in two sets, both expensive sets and one in which he was explicitly disguised. If Lego were to return to the practice of including fan favourites in recognisable form in only one $100 exclusive set over the course of the decade, they should rightly be criticised for it. That said, I've been out of the loop with Star Wars since about 2012 so I have no idea if there are any popular characters that are rarely featured in any form at all.

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12 hours ago, timemail said:

Probably didn't explain it too well but yes the gambling aspect is the chance. The fact that for blind bags buying multiples you are likely to get doubles, or if you only want one particular item it is a low chance you will get it. The blind bags increase the cost to get them all (without trading or buying from third parties - not everyone kids especially can feel for what they want). It is designed to suck money from people. Yes they will pay but many would rather just get what they want without having to buy the extras due to chance (there would also be many I'm sure where the thrill of the hunt is the purpose though).

I don't have an issue with collecting them all except for the exclusivity of it. I would rather people be able to get what they want at a reasonable price. When it comes to something like (for example) a Joker minifigure - all the small sets have the same figure and the UCS will have an exclusive. This doesn't help a consumer (especially children) but does help the company - I expect companies to do this but I don't like it. Making the exclusive figure available in a cheap set also would do this, but would lessen the value of the UCS. I see this as profit over people.

Yep - I do feel the same way about all companies doing this including trading cards, con-exclusives etc. Not expecting it to change, if I ran a company I would do the same as it makes money. The big difference with Lego is that it seems quite hypocritical from a company that tries to appear to be socially responsible and I see this as a disconnect.

That fair. I don’t quite see the issue with the blind bags, but I can see that frustrating a kid- only wanting X but never getting X. 

As someone who didn’t get Velma...and still doesn’t...I do kinda get the gripe there. But me not having her is more my unwillingness to buy a single minifig for what she’s going for. Overall, I don’t see it as a problem, it’s just incentive to buy that set. I’d love to get a Ledger Joker in a cheaper set but I get why we haven’t. Maybe it’ll be like the reindeer. Only 1 in a $99(which is still a more reasonable price)set, then is followed up a year later by 4 in a $36 set. 

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13 hours ago, Mylenium said:

They absolutely are and continue to be. Just look how many designs they registered in recent months, including their much laughed-at attempt to do so for the five-studded plate some of their competitors had for years. A lot of it feels like they are merely doing it out of spite to force their competitors to invest extra effort and work around what otherwise would be straightforward "obvious" technical solutions.

They weren't even the first to come up with the original stud/receptacle design. It was taken from another company (I forget the name now) whose IP they bought up in the 1950s. Nothing wrong with it necessarily, most successful companies are not the original innovators but take an existing idea and refine and scale it. They definitely do have a history of anti-competitive behavior though.

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On 9/20/2021 at 11:25 AM, allanp said:

I am mixed. I like that they listen to fans for their sets but I wish they would stay out of politics entirely.

How exactly do you stay out of politics? According to some peoples logic, Lego should not sell any sets with female figures - world wide. Cause you know in some middle eastern countries, they don't like em that way. Seriously, people make this argument all the time about the only 2 LGBTQIA+ sets so far.

"not being political", often just means to hide within the existing power structure, not do anything controversial. If Europe would be more influenced by chinese cinema instead of hollywood, we'd probably have some kind of "China-man", with chinese symbolisma and propaganda, while "Captain America" or "Captain britain" would cause controversy.

Everything is always political. Just if it's your own convenient politics and it didn't offend or exclude you, you never noticed this fact.

-_____________________________

Do I like the company? It's a company. They are too big to really be ethical. Many people probably are. But it's a big company. I don't judge anyone; it's a system. If I dislike something, I don't buy it. Don't hate the player, hate the system.
 

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On 9/20/2021 at 9:15 AM, williejm said:

Oh okay, so you just want them to have the same politics as you. 

 

14 minutes ago, Kim-Kwang-Seok said:

Everything is always political. Just if it's your own convenient politics and it didn't offend or exclude you, you never noticed this fact.

These. Times a thousand.

"Stay out of politics" has always, ALWAYS, meant "mirror my politics, which I assume is the default non-political point of view." People don't realize that everything is political.

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1 hour ago, danth said:

 

These. Times a thousand.

"Stay out of politics" has always, ALWAYS, meant "mirror my politics, which I assume is the default non-political point of view." People don't realize that everything is political.

No, like I have said already, I don't want them to mirror my politics or anyone elses. Whilst everything CAN be made political, such as "Omg they released a V8 Supercar, they support burning fossil fuels!" or even "they made a queer eye set omg!", these are not in themselves political statements, they are just popular things that happen to exist in reality. But sending money to BLM and releasing a clearly rainbow coloured set are outwardly political because they are based solely on political points of view, and only one side of their respective arguments, without having to be made political. How many black people have been hurt because of clashes caused by BLM? How many young black kids are discouraged from trying their best because they are constantly told that they as an individual have less chance to succeed purely because of the colour of their skin? And everyone is awesome except if your a straight white male, or a member of the Taliban, or a nazi, or....clearly no one (certainly not me) actually believes everyone is awesome. No one believes all cultures are awesome either. And if Lego really supported gay rights then why do business in Saudi Arabia? If they are so brave and bold why not sell the everyone is awesome set in Saudi Arabia? Do you believe big companies like Lego support such things because they believe in them or because they can make money from you?! And if Lego, in their greed for woke dollars, didn't play this political crap would we be arguing here on Eurobricks, or just enjoying our hobby?

Now it's important to know that I didn't say any of that in some sad attempt to spread my own views, it's just a tiny example of how there's more than one side to every story and to come down on only one divides that one from the rest. There is more that unites us than divides us but the more big companies play politics for cash the more we are turning on each other and I am sick to death of that shit, not only the companies that do it but the people that fall for it. Whilst it may be true that I only notice more when the political statement being made goes against my own, that does not invalidate what I'm saying. Keep politics out, all of it!

Edited by allanp

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53 minutes ago, allanp said:

No, like I have said already, I don't want them to mirror my politics or anyone elses. Whilst everything CAN be made political, such as "Omg they released a V8 Supercar, they support burning fossil fuels!" or even "they made a queer eye set omg!", these are not in themselves political statements, they are just popular things that happen to exist in reality. But sending money to BLM and releasing a clearly rainbow coloured set are outwardly political because they are based solely on political points of view, and only one side of their respective arguments, without having to be made political. How many black people have been hurt because of clashes caused by BLM? How many young black kids are discouraged from trying their best because they are constantly told that they as an individual have less chance to succeed purely because of the colour of their skin? And everyone is awesome except if your a straight white male, or a member of the Taliban, or a nazi, or....clearly no one (certainly not me) actually believes everyone is awesome. No one believes all cultures are awesome either. And if Lego really supported gay rights then why do business in Saudi Arabia? If they are so brave and bold why not sell the everyone is awesome set in Saudi Arabia? Do you believe big companies like Lego support such things because they believe in them or because they can make money from you?! And if Lego, in their greed for woke dollars, didn't play this political crap would we be arguing here on Eurobricks, or just enjoying our hobby?

Now it's important to know that I didn't say any of that in some sad attempt to spread my own views, it's just a tiny example of how there's more than one side to every story and to come down on only one divides that one from the rest. There is more that unites us than divides us but the more big companies play politics for cash the more we are turning on each other and I am sick to death of that shit, not only the companies that do it but the people that fall for it. Whilst it may be true that I only notice more when the political statement being made goes against my own, that does not invalidate what I'm saying. Keep politics out, all of it!

You managed to make a big point (that I'd like to adress some time) but without any response to my arguments?

What about clearly political captain america? What about pretty much equal women in sets since like 3-5 years? And surely there are and have been other occasions of TLG donating and promoting other companies, movements, brands or whatever which just were not on your radar. Btw some twitter or whatever interview of Lego is not that significant, compared to their products that are distributed in many countries. Among those products being many british and american symbols despite sometimes questionable cultural background. I'm not arguing against the products. I just try to deconstruct the argument that they are apolitical while other things are.


Now I'd like to counter argue like 500 things you wrote, having worked for years with people, who were enslaved then kind of enslaved, driven out, exploited, etc.

..then there was holocaust where they tried to kill them all by gas, shooting, burning, working to death, etc. - and these people never got any reparations, their history was never reflected and they are still discriminated against, driven out of their homes.

They are people like us with flaws and strenghts, but despite the described past - there's so many clever people among them and clever or not, we try to incourage them plenty times. I don't know if you make up your mind from afar without ever at least looking into the shoes of someone affected or if you are a social worker who is very close to those topics.
Anyway it can also be empowering to reflect WHY an incredibly smart woman does not have any chance ever to live decent but must give her poverty to her children, despite trying everything and working harder than most people you'd find in Germany (which in her situation I'd probably never do). Of course we would make events and reflect on how history has given some a better situation, some a harder situation and some an impossible one. Just to adress one of your points. Feel free to ask if something is unclear.

If anyone was discriminating you our any other white man I am sorry for that and obviously that's not OK. If anyone is abusing a movement for something like this, that's obviously even worse. Power is always a tool, no matter in who's hand it is. But the support for the movement, which is about the fact that Black lives, Romani lives and others matter and the fact that we HAVE to make this an issue, is not because we want it to be, but because we literally know people who are affected by violence and discrimination from the state and radical groups (which are not trailed by the state) and because we have scientific proof of that structural issue. But yeah, it's a complicated long topic.

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7 hours ago, Kim-Kwang-Seok said:

You managed to make a big point (that I'd like to adress some time) but without any response to my arguments?

What about clearly political captain america? What about pretty much equal women in sets since like 3-5 years? And surely there are and have been other occasions of TLG donating and promoting other companies, movements, brands or whatever which just were not on your radar. Btw some twitter or whatever interview of Lego is not that significant, compared to their products that are distributed in many countries. Among those products being many british and american symbols despite sometimes questionable cultural background. I'm not arguing against the products. I just try to deconstruct the argument that they are apolitical while other things are.


Now I'd like to counter argue like 500 things you wrote, having worked for years with people, who were enslaved then kind of enslaved, driven out, exploited, etc.

..then there was holocaust where they tried to kill them all by gas, shooting, burning, working to death, etc. - and these people never got any reparations, their history was never reflected and they are still discriminated against, driven out of their homes.

They are people like us with flaws and strenghts, but despite the described past - there's so many clever people among them and clever or not, we try to incourage them plenty times. I don't know if you make up your mind from afar without ever at least looking into the shoes of someone affected or if you are a social worker who is very close to those topics.
Anyway it can also be empowering to reflect WHY an incredibly smart woman does not have any chance ever to live decent but must give her poverty to her children, despite trying everything and working harder than most people you'd find in Germany (which in her situation I'd probably never do). Of course we would make events and reflect on how history has given some a better situation, some a harder situation and some an impossible one. Just to adress one of your points. Feel free to ask if something is unclear.

If anyone was discriminating you our any other white man I am sorry for that and obviously that's not OK. If anyone is abusing a movement for something like this, that's obviously even worse. Power is always a tool, no matter in who's hand it is. But the support for the movement, which is about the fact that Black lives, Romani lives and others matter and the fact that we HAVE to make this an issue, is not because we want it to be, but because we literally know people who are affected by violence and discrimination from the state and radical groups (which are not trailed by the state) and because we have scientific proof of that structural issue. But yeah, it's a complicated long topic.

Well I was mostly replying to Danth. But in response to your main point that everything is political I was trying to say that there is a difference between something that can be made political and something that is clearly and outwardly political. I don't think captain America is political but even if it was, there's a difference between merely depicting something, flaws and all, and coming down squarely on only one side of the argument. And just because I notice more when it's something on my radar that does not invalidate what I am saying.

And yes we could discuss back and forth our political differences but that's not my intention. I only wanted to point out that there are different points of view. You may support BLM because you believe they are a force for good, that's fine. But my non support of BLM doesn't come from some non existent hatred of another race. Quite the opposite as I believe BLM are doing far more harm than good. So we disagree on the issue of BLM but so what? I believe both our intentions are good, and to try to divide people even more than we already are along those lines to make profit is not good. 

 

Edited by allanp

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You're completely missing the point.

3 hours ago, allanp said:

I don't think captain America is political

Captain America was created in mid-WWII as anti-Nazi propaganda. You can acknowledge something is political while agreeing with the message. As @danth says, everything is political, always.

More specifically: the Cap cold-cocked Hitler before the USA even officially entered the war. Talk about controversial!

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2 hours ago, jimmynick said:

You're completely missing the point.

Captain America was created in mid-WWII as anti-Nazi propaganda. You can acknowledge something is political while agreeing with the message. As @danth says, everything is political, always.

More specifically: the Cap cold-cocked Hitler before the USA even officially entered the war. Talk about controversial!

I think you have explained what others are saying to me very well, and I do understand a little better now so thank you for that. But isn't it a false equivalence? Captain America may have started out as political propaganda but that was like 80 years ago! Now he's just a typical comic book superhero. You could also argue the same for the Volkswagen beetle or the Sopwith camel and Fokker plane sets. These generally aren't viewed as current political statements in the 21st century. 

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