Technic Pricing General Discussion

[Gray Gear]

 

12 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

Plus, I suspect requisitioning parts in loads of different colours adds to production and transport costs, which will then inflate the price of the set.

I don't think so. The weird colors you find inside have often be used in Sets from other themes, and I suspect part of why they do it is to make setting up production worth it by producing more and then dumping them inside other sets.

[Maaboo the Witch]

3 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

I don't think so. The weird colors you find inside have often be used in Sets from other themes, and I suspect part of why they do it is to make setting up production worth it by producing more and then dumping them inside other sets.

Hence the qualifier "I suspect". Admittedly it was a bit of a long shot.

[weavil]

What I think most people miss about the price is that there is a new mold piece and that CAT (most likely) has a higher license cost the others.

Electronics do play a part in cost, however it can be ignored when comparing two or more sets with electronics.

When evaluating the cost of a set, always look at these:

• How much electronics.
• How many "large" items. (panels, tires, buckets, etc)
• How many new molded parts and size.
• Is it a licensed set.
• Along with large parts, does it have an excessive amount of cross hole parts. Like 5x7 or 7x11 frames.

The rest of the parts can be made easier and quick either cause of their size (pins, bushings, 1x3 whatever's) or simple mold shapes (lift arms, axles).

[Lipko]

"Lego is for kids". Therefore we have these 18+ sets, so that you, as an adult, who don't give a crap about Lego so you don't see how inferior they actually are in comparison with "normal Lego for the kids", can have a cool model never meant to play with on your shelf and don't feel uncool (better keep the box so if you get some risen eyebrows from your frieds you can proove them you are not uncool, because the model will fail to proove it by itself).
It's just marketing. I started before Lego was cool. Now Lego is coming down the chimney.

Edit: the high prize can be attributed to that "feel cool" thing. One must be a cool person if one can spend 450 on a decoration.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Lipko

[syclone]

1 hour ago, Lipko said:

Edit: the high prize can be attributed to that "feel cool" thing. One must be a cool person if one can spend 450 on a decoration.

I know of a local guy who without having a bike driver's license bought a Ducati just because "there was empty space in his house that he wanted to occupy". A fully working Ducati sportsbike (that particular one was ~6-7 thousand euro). Simply to put on display. I wish he would pay my bills too, since I also seem to have empty space in my pockets... 

3 hours ago, weavil said:

What I think most people miss about the price is that there is a new mold piece and that CAT (most likely) has a higher license cost the others.

Electronics do play a part in cost, however it can be ignored when comparing two or more sets with electronics.

When evaluating the cost of a set, always look at these:

• How much electronics.
• How many "large" items. (panels, tires, buckets, etc)
• How many new molded parts and size.
• Is it a licensed set.
• Along with large parts, does it have an excessive amount of cross hole parts. Like 5x7 or 7x11 frames.

The rest of the parts can be made easier and quick either cause of their size (pins, bushings, 1x3 whatever's) or simple mold shapes (lift arms, axles).

So essentially, they chose to make this model unnecesarily large, make new parts for it due to that, slap an expensive license and charge a premium price. They missed out on re-introducing a Technic fig though, since it seems it's perfect scale... Could've added another 50-60 euro on that 

It does make sense what you're saing, but we can't know the exact costs behind each thing. What also has to be accounted for IMHO, is how many sets use the part before/afterwards - some of them might never get reused (buckets from Volvo&Liebherr  for example), others have already been used in various other sets (like the yellow variant of suspension arms). In this case it might take some time before we see the track pieces reused, as they're gigantic, and unless the LAs become permanently black they might even never appear again in that colour (same with yellow 5x7 frames, as it already happened with their other colour variations).

Edited September 14, 2021 by syclone

[weavil]

10 hours ago, syclone said:

It does make sense what you're saing, but we can't know the exact costs behind each thing. What also has to be accounted for IMHO, is how many sets use the part before/afterwards - some of them might never get reused (buckets from Volvo&Liebherr  for example), others have already been used in various other sets (like the yellow variant of suspension arms). In this case it might take some time before we see the track pieces reused, as they're gigantic, and unless the LAs become permanently black they might even never appear again in that colour (same with yellow 5x7 frames, as it already happened with their other colour variations).

The Liebherr bucket and the  new tracks may never see light again or if they do it will be at least 3-4 years later. The black LA's will be used more I think. The other color 5x7 frames were for that specific line, were the yellow can still be used even if it is hidden inside the model.

[brickless_kiwi]

12 hours ago, syclone said:

I know of a local guy who without having a bike driver's license bought a Ducati just because "there was empty space in his house that he wanted to occupy".

Nothing wrong with that. Though a Yamaha would have been better imo.

Now I have seen your gripe about cost. Fair perhaps. But heres a question. Could you build it via other sets and bricklink for cheaper. Perhaps you could run the numbers as I'm a bit busy making a living.

Third. If your date of birth is correct. I can see your a young guy starting out in the world and yep at that age I can honestly say I had to watch every dollar.

Off topic perhaps. Absolutely no offence intended. 

Kind regards matt 

[2GodBDGlory]

I've been working on the 2021 update of my Technic book, and as a part of that I decided to run some numbers on the CAT pricing. Here's a quote from my first draft: "The main complaint against this set has been its price, which is identical to the Liebherr, despite this set having about 300 pieces, a hub, and three motors fewer. If we say that the set’s 3845 pieces are worth $390 CAD, and we put the electronics at current Bricklink prices, so that the hub is worth $21, the L’s are worth 2x$19, and the large angular motors are worth 2x$17 (all prices taken before this set’s release), we get a total set value of $483 CAD to stack up against the set’s retail value of $549.99 CAD. We thus have a discrepancy of $66.99 CAD ($53 USD), which is definitely enough to classify the set as overpriced, but I think complaints have perhaps overstated the issue." Running the same numbers on the Liebherr, though, we see that it was worth $578, or $38.01 over its list value.

The takeaway for me is that the Liebherr was a rather good deal, the CAT is a poor (but not unusual) deal, but the sum difference between them overstates the CAT's deficiency.

[howitzer]

11 hours ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

I've been working on the 2021 update of my Technic book, and as a part of that I decided to run some numbers on the CAT pricing. Here's a quote from my first draft: "The main complaint against this set has been its price, which is identical to the Liebherr, despite this set having about 300 pieces, a hub, and three motors fewer. If we say that the set’s 3845 pieces are worth $390 CAD, and we put the electronics at current Bricklink prices, so that the hub is worth $21, the L’s are worth 2x$19, and the large angular motors are worth 2x$17 (all prices taken before this set’s release), we get a total set value of $483 CAD to stack up against the set’s retail value of $549.99 CAD. We thus have a discrepancy of $66.99 CAD ($53 USD), which is definitely enough to classify the set as overpriced, but I think complaints have perhaps overstated the issue." Running the same numbers on the Liebherr, though, we see that it was worth $578, or $38.01 over its list value.

The takeaway for me is that the Liebherr was a rather good deal, the CAT is a poor (but not unusual) deal, but the sum difference between them overstates the CAT's deficiency.

Did you make your calculations based on cheapest Bricklink offers, regardless of seller? I mean, the total parts list would probably be distributed over several different BL shops, which may or may not have the best prices, and the more sellers you include, the more delivery costs there will be, and those aren't negligible, I'm guessing you'd end up easily paying like 100 or more in of your currency of choice in just delivery costs. And then you won't have stickers, printed building instructions, unboxing experience, parts sorted by building stage, etc. I'm sure some people don't care about those, but others do, so it's not 1:1 comparison.

In the end it appears that the Liebherr indeed was a great deal (if you appreciate the PU parts) while the Cat is just average in TLG's lineup. I'm also willing to bet that some of the Cat's apparent overpricing can be attributed to the increased costs of production and logistics due to the pandemic, as it is known for example that the cost of shipping containers has increased drastically. It's hard to estimate if that makes up 10 or 100 currency units in the final cost, but it's something.

[2GodBDGlory]

6 hours ago, howitzer said:

Did you make your calculations based on cheapest Bricklink offers, regardless of seller? I mean, the total parts list would probably be distributed over several different BL shops, which may or may not have the best prices, and the more sellers you include, the more delivery costs there will be, and those aren't negligible, I'm guessing you'd end up easily paying like 100 or more in of your currency of choice in just delivery costs. And then you won't have stickers, printed building instructions, unboxing experience, parts sorted by building stage, etc. I'm sure some people don't care about those, but others do, so it's not 1:1 comparison.

In the end it appears that the Liebherr indeed was a great deal (if you appreciate the PU parts) while the Cat is just average in TLG's lineup. I'm also willing to bet that some of the Cat's apparent overpricing can be attributed to the increased costs of production and logistics due to the pandemic, as it is known for example that the cost of shipping containers has increased drastically. It's hard to estimate if that makes up 10 or 100 currency units in the final cost, but it's something.

Yeah, my calculations were based off of the cheapest offers of which there was significant quantity (no cheap outliers that will be gone tomorrow). You're right, though, a higher price might have been more meaningful; I was just too lazy to figure out what a reasonable one would be. The point wasn't how much replicating the set would cost, though, rather I just wanted to get an idea of whether the set was a good deal or not, despite the electronics that make it vaguer than usual.

[Bartybum]

7 hours ago, howitzer said:

while the Cat is just average in TLG's lineup.

No the CAT is definitely not average. It just isn’t. Check my comment at the start of page 3.

[howitzer]

16 hours ago, Bartybum said:

No the CAT is definitely not average. It just isn’t. Check my comment at the start of page 3.

At least the graph you posted shows it very close to average in terms of price per kg.

[Bartybum]

7 hours ago, howitzer said:

At least the graph you posted shows it very close to average in terms of price per kg.

I hadn’t noticed that, interesting :o

[Gray Gear]

LEGO will crank up prices even furter in Europe starting january 2022. Not only technic, but these technic sets have been confirmed:

• LEGO Technic 42110 Land Rover Defender 179,99€ NEU: 199,99€
• LEGO Technic 42115 Lamborghini Sián FKP 37 379,99€ NEU 399,99€
• LEGO Technic 42128 Schwerlast-Abschleppwagen 149,99€ NEU: 169,99€
• LEGO Technic 42114 Knickgelenkter Volvo-Dumper (6×6) 249,99€ NEU: 259,99€

You can check the whole list HERE.

[LvdH]

I don't speak much German, but from what I understand they're not exactly raising the prices. They're evening them out across Europe. It just so happens Germany is most negatively affected by this, because LEGO set have generally be a bit cheaper there. Prices have always been all over the place in Europe. For example, the Bugatti: 

• €400 in the Netherlands and Luxembourg
• €370 in Germany and Ireland
• €450 in Greece
• €380 in France and Slovenia
• €420 in Finland

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by LvdH

[Gray Gear]

@LvdH Yes, that's what the author of the article is guessing the reason is. I did not comment on the reason because I don't know for sure. Evening out prices by raising the prices for 30 seemingly random sets in Germany only doesn't make sense to me.

All I see is that the list contains a lot of sets that A) are popular/flagships and/or B) had prices that seemed not that bad compared to other LEGO sets (like the tow truck for example). But that's just me. I don't care either way, as don't buy any complete sets from denmark, period.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Gray Gear

[Tcm0]

We will probably have to wait until we get an official word from lego for anything relieable and I think that there must be a good reason to raise the prices while the sets are on sale (instead of only doing it for new sets) but I've also expected lego to get more expensive so for me it's kind of expected.

There is a shortage of basically all of the basic materials here in germany (and probably in europe as a whole). We don't have enough metal, plastic or wood. You don't see this as a normal customer, but companies have many problems. Everything gets more expensive and delivery times are unrelieable. The simplest pieces like plugs can have delivery times of half a year or more and who knows if you actually get them then.

There is also a problem with shipments from china. They are getting more expensive if you can actually get a container on a ship. I would suspect that this is even more relevant for imported bricks but there are also some parts that lego only makes in specific factories and the base materials often come from china so they would be affected.

And last not least the business is expecting new environmental regulations. Some of them are preparing and are already raising the prices so that there won't be a very steep raise at one point.

However, that are only my speculations. We'll have to wait on an official comment for actual information.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Tcm0

[Gray Gear]

Well despite the material shortages wichich have been going on since a goog while 2020 TLG made 19% more profit that year, so I think raising the prices is not really needed. TLG increased their profit due to covid, so raising the prices for that reason is kind of a joke

Edited September 20, 2021 by Gray Gear

[howitzer]

5 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

Well despite the material shortages wichich have been going on since a goog while 2020 TLG made 19% more profit that year, so I think raising the prices is not really needed. TLG increased their profit due to covid, so raising the prices for that reason is kind of a joke

Sorry, but large corporation economics doesn't work like that. They did indeed increase profits for 2020, but that probably came mostly from selling what they had in stock, meaning that they have a deficit in their inventory, all the while all kinds of cost increases are incoming. There's no guarantee that the increase in sales is going to last, rather it's probably just a fluke that's going to go away when the world opens again and spending habits return to normal. TLG, however, has to plan ahead and the cost increases won't go away any time soon as the economy is booming in many parts of the world and they have to plan ahead - this means that while the aforementioned profit can be reinvested to cover some of the cost increases, it might not be enough and something else has to be done also to make sure they don't run into severe shortage of inventory in the coming years. It's really bad for business if you don't have enough stuff to sell while the customers have other places to spend their money into.

Or maybe it's just the evening of prices across the Europe. Considering that online trade is increasing constantly, I'm sure TLG sees the need to even out the prices, and in this the Germans lose a bit while people in some other places gain a bit.

[Gray Gear]

@howitzer You're probably right in a few points.

If TLG really is evening out prices in Europe we'll have to expect raising prices for a lot of other LEGO sets, and in other coutries too. Otherwise this makes no sense.

1 hour ago, howitzer said:

It's really bad for business if you don't have enough stuff to sell while the customers have other places to spend their money into.

Yeah or people might start to pay rent or other unneccary expenses 

[Bartybum]

Another interesting point on the CAT. When people say that the CAT is fair/average cost, what I can't reconcile is when I look at the price of 4k piece sets in the PF days (~$400AUD). Without counting the weight of the electronics, the CAT weighs nearly half a kilogram less than the BWE and 42082, yet for some reason one smart hub, four motors and a license add $350AUD, nearly doubling the cost.

[howitzer]

4 hours ago, Bartybum said:

Another interesting point on the CAT. When people say that the CAT is fair/average cost, what I can't reconcile is when I look at the price of 4k piece sets in the PF days (~$400AUD). Without counting the weight of the electronics, the CAT weighs nearly half a kilogram less than the BWE and 42082, yet for some reason one smart hub, four motors and a license add $350AUD, nearly doubling the cost.

I'm sure the CAT has increased production cost, even disregarding the electronics. Current material shortages, increased shipping costs etc. play a part here, but it's impossible to say how much. (Of course there's also some normal inflation to take into the account but that shouldn't be very much after only 5 years.)

As for the BWE, it was a set with unprecedented amount of "heavy" parts, especially 5x7 frames, which might made it somewhat heavier than a typical Technic set (I haven't actually checked this though, so I might be wrong.) Another thing to consider is that the electronics were soon-to-be obsolete PF components, so TLG probably just emptied their warehouses of stockpiled XL (and for 42028 L) motors and thus they might have been sold for less money than otherwise. I think those two sets were also regarded as notoriously inexpensive even upon their release.

[Bartybum]

22 hours ago, howitzer said:

I'm sure the CAT has increased production cost, even disregarding the electronics. Current material shortages, increased shipping costs etc. play a part here, but it's impossible to say how much.

As I said before in my analysis of prices, I think there has been a 20% price increase for supply chain reasons and the current state of global trade, so I'm not so quick to think it's TLC being greedy. That being said, I don't think it's unreasonable to say the price is unfair regardless, because it's past what I would consider reasonable for what the set offers. Pandemic or not, it's simply not a viable product in my eyes. I think the claim that it's averagely priced is straight up BS when you realise that claim implies that the cost to the consumer of one smart hub and four motors is near $300AUD.

22 hours ago, howitzer said:

As for the BWE, it was a set with unprecedented amount of "heavy" parts, especially 5x7 frames, which might made it somewhat heavier than a typical Technic set

I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across here Price-per-kg is already a pretty good metric; regardless, most larger Technic sets come out to have similar pieces-per-kg amounts, at around 1100-1200 pcs/kg.

22 hours ago, howitzer said:

Another thing to consider is that the electronics were soon-to-be obsolete PF components, so TLG probably just emptied their warehouses of stockpiled XL (and for 42028 L) motors and thus they might have been sold for less money than otherwise.

Regardless, the cost of electronics here wouldn't have had any significant effect relative to the cost of the pieces, as they were limited to just one cheap battery box and an XL motor.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Bartybum

[brickless_kiwi]

This is quite a interesting conversation. As a company owner / manager and grunt on the floor most days. 

The cost of doing business has gone up. We have seen steel costs go up three times. Shortage of products has forced cost increases. Shipping costs for containers has tripled. 

Yes we have increases costs which unfortunately have been past on to the customer im sure this is the case with lego.

The costs realignment across Europe is interesting given that nz and au pay some of the highest set prices in the world and also being somewhat the furtherest away from Denmark.  I think costs are certainly going up for us.

[Bartybum]

4 hours ago, brickless_kiwi said:

The costs realignment across Europe is interesting given that nz and au pay some of the highest set prices in the world and also being somewhat the furtherest away from Denmark.  I think costs are certainly going up for us.

I can't speak to you Kiwis, or to themes beyond Technic, but I used to think that us Aussies had it worse than other countries but I'm not so sure anymore. When you factor in other currencies' GST counterparts, we end up having similar prices. Only Canada really gets crazy good deals for large sets. We also tend to have these sets listed for quite some amount below RRP in our department stores, especially the larger ones. When sales hit, you can get large sets for some serious savings off the listed RRP at S@H.