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Technic Pricing General Discussion

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LEGO electrical parts have always (even going back to the 60's) been very expensive for what they actually are. The motors are cheap mass-produced stuff but often housed in a studded enclosure. In my former job I've imported/sold thousands of similar motors and they often cost less than one euro when buying a decent amount

Same thing with controllers and lights. Very cheap electronics. The development costs for TLG have been minescule

 

2 minutes ago, jorgeopesi said:

I will use it like I want if you do not mind and I do not think lego is the mercedes of construction toys, Lego was the first to explode the business like ford but lego patented its wheels,

Then who do you think is the Mercedes of construction toys then?

You can use whatever you like, but you cannot call CADA "LEGO"

And to be strict TLG was not the first in the business anyway :wink:

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2 hours ago, syclone said:

I think I can partially agree @HectorMB, PU might be the reason why a set is "expensive" . However then I don't understand the reason for said system to be so expensive - silicon shortage or not, other comparable electronics (like Raspberry Pi)  are dirt cheap in comparison and are much more sophisticated when it comes to hardware specs (with even the 10€ Pi Zero being able to run an OS with monitor output) even factoring in a few motor drivers and other necessary electronic components still seems to leave quite a significant markup.

Then,  PF sets included a remote, which added to the cost, yet PU sets do not include one - so some savings should be seen there (surprise! there aren't any) 

I think that one big aspect of the price of electronic parts is security and tests. I've heard of chinese plugs melting and rechargeable batteries smoking. There is basically no official documentation (rpm etc) for chinese components. LEGO releases declarations and technical specifications for some/most of their hardware.

Also, the motors have pretty good rotation sensors. You can't compare them directly with normal DC motors.

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6 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

 

And then are sets that do not fit to their price-class anymore like the Zetros. The flagship range should be ~200-250€, if you leave that range it leaves a giant gap in the product list and it will not make much sense anymore. I mean you can make every small set larger and more expensive - but then there will be no cheap sets left :|

 

In last year and a half, LEGO whatever they put on shelfs for whatever price they put on it. During pandemic, people had too much time and a lot of money left over from all thing, which they were not able to do (like travel and other stuff). It loks to me that they became cocky and greedy. It will no last forever and then we will again see "suits" with tears in their eyes laying off people (with their bonuses resting peacefully on their accounts).

There are way too many expensive sets (not just in tecnih but in genral) for normal market situation. All this costs and will have consequences.

Regarding dozer: for me it's worth about 300-350 euro, so I will not buy it for anything more.

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LEGO is the same as Kleenex, JoJo etc.

Show a kid a 2x4 brick, it will ask whats this? The Kid will reply "a LEGO", not "a building block" or "a Klemmbaustein" :purrr:

When I shoot pictures of my MOCs (containing mostly GoBricks) outside its always "Wow mom look at that LEGO car!" "Is that made of Legos?" Ect.

TLG will tell you that LEGO is not used for a generic LEGO-style building block, but in the real world it is exactly that.

Edited by Gray Gear

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4 minutes ago, Cwetqo said:

There are way too many expensive sets (not just in tecnih but in genral) for normal market situation. All this costs and will have consequences.

 

Why is that a problem if you add(!) more expensive sets? Because of the feeling that there are more things you cannot pay for? I do not see the benefit of not releasing sets I won't buy anyway.

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23 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

I think that one big aspect of the price of electronic parts is security and tests. I've heard of chinese plugs melting and rechargeable batteries smoking. There is basically no official documentation (rpm etc) for chinese components. LEGO releases declarations and technical specifications for some/most of their hardware.

Also, the motors have pretty good rotation sensors. You can't compare them directly with normal DC motors.

That does not fly. The plugs TLG uses for the new electrical system are decades old, very standardized and available for pennies from very reputable mfgs

You can buy everything from China. A motor can cost a penny, but it's made by a three year old communist child working 28/hours a day or it can cost a dollar and come with every certification needed made by highly educated people in a top-notch factory. China have_everything_

Lol! "Rotation sensors", that is also decade old technology that also do not cost anything really

17 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

LEGO is the same as Kleenex, JoJo etc.

Show a kid a 2x4 brick, it will ask whats this? The Kid will reply "a LEGO", not "a building block" or "a Klemmbaustein" :purrr:

When I shoot pictures of my MOCs (containing mostly GoBricks) outside its always "Wow mom look at that LEGO car!" "Is that made of Legos?" Ect.

TLG will tell you that LEGO is not used for a generic LEGO-style building block, but in the real world it is exactly that.

It is? Please show me all the webshops that sell knock-offs and advertise it as "LEGO" (No links to chineese shops as you can buy eveything as knock-offs over there, including complete Apple shops and Tesla cars)

Luckily we have very little of that crap here, so children are not exposed to that. I do know Germany has somewhat of a beef going on with TLG at the moment

Edited by 1974

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@1974 it is called a "Gattungsbegriff" ("generic term" in english?) I think you get the concept. A company name gets so popular that it is used for all products of that kind, no matter the brand.

That has obviously happened with the LEGO name, People know nothing else. But LEGO obviously doesn't admit it, and it would take a good bit of cash to make surveys and court time to make the generic term "official", so companys could use them too. 

Still, as a private person you can do what you like.

Edited by Gray Gear

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I don't know exactly how it is in other countries, but in Russia the prices for Lego sets have nothing to do with the official ones. The real market price is ultimately determined by the demand for the set. Any set is almost always discounted, and this discount depends on demand. In this context, I don't understand the meaning of discussing official prices, if there is always an alternative to buying, including bricklink, etc.

Edited by Igor1

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Just now, 1974 said:

I speak german, I get it. but no "LEGO" is not the Kleenex of building toys

Not of Building Toys, no. Playmobil or wooden playing blocks are different.

But obviously LEGO is used by the public as a generic term for any construction toy that looks kind of like LEGO.

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Playmobil is not a construction toy. Meccano is

We allready had an interesting discussion here btw :

 

 

3 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

Not of Building Toys, no. Playmobil or wooden playing blocks are different.

But obviously LEGO is used by the public as a generic term for any construction toy that looks kind of like LEGO.

Sorry, I meant "construction" not "building" :blush:

4 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

But obviously LEGO is used by the public as a generic term for any construction toy that looks kind of like LEGO.

That is simply not my experience at all, Both amongst AFOLs and kids

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@Igor1 Same here in Germany. You'll get 30% on almost any set if you wait a bit, and 50% off is often seen for Vidiyo and other unpopular LEGO pruducts that will just collect dust in the stores and 50% is needed to make them move 

Edited by Gray Gear

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LEGO is quite often used as a loss leader here in the big supermarket chains

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@Gray Gear @1974

To be precise: The source of this discussion was that the reviewer pointed on a model of a different brand and said something like 'That's lego, too'. Which is 1. obviously a provocation 2. something you never do in reviews/tests. Not spoken and especially not written. Even if a brand name is established as generic term. If you do a reputable review: Give things their real name.

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@Gray Gear So I think that instead of going into a silly discussion of official prices, it is better to spend this time assembling Lego. :wink:

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4 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

@Gray Gear @1974

To be precise: The source of this discussion was that the reviewer pointed on a model of a different brand and said something like 'That's lego, too'. Which is 1. obviously a provocation 2. something you never do in reviews/tests. Not spoken and especially not written. Even if a brand name is established as generic term. If you do a reputable review: Give things their real name.

But people only watch the video if the title includes lego. I mean why does he review mostly lego if he doesn't like it ;)

36 minutes ago, 1974 said:

That does not fly. The plugs TLG uses for the new electrical system are decades old, very standardized and available for pennies from very reputable mfgs

You can buy everything from China. A motor can cost a penny, but it's made by a three year old communist child working 28/hours a day or it can cost a dollar and come with every certification needed made by highly educated people in a top-notch factory. China have_everything_

Lol! "Rotation sensors", that is also decade old technology that also do not cost anything really

Why do the chinese companies not make powered up compatible motors then? How can lego protect the plug if it is that old? But anyways. I don't see how it is an argument against what I've said. Even if it's that old: where is the problem?

Why are there no chinese companies making rotation sensors if they don't cost anything (or robotics sets in general)? They clone the design of boost but they don't clone the functionality. It shouldn't be a problem if china has everything.

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9 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

But people only watch the video if the title includes lego. I mean why does he review mostly lego if he doesn't like it ;)

Why do the chinese companies not make powered up compatible motors then? How can lego protect the plug if it is that old? But anyways. I don't see how it is an argument against what I've said. Even if it's that old: where is the problem?

Why are there no chinese companies making rotation sensors if they don't cost anything (or robotics sets in general)? They clone the design of boost but they don't clone the functionality. It shouldn't be a problem if china has everything.

Have you even done a modicum of searching?

Edit : I've done it for you ..

Chineese motors :

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000894592155.html

The plugs (which TLG cannot "protect" as it's not their design at all):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_jack_and_plug

Rotation sensors : Just search for Hall sensors on ebay, aliexpress etc

Very old and cheap technology :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor

Edited by 1974

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6 minutes ago, 1974 said:

Have you even done a modicum of searching?

I know that there are like 3 sellers on aliexpress selling powered up cables. But none of them have a "brandname" like cada or mould king and none of them make motors or something similar, just cables. No set that I know uses them. Yeah, I think that I'm informed about most of the stuff.

Yes, there is the KAZI EV5. That's one manufacturer. And an EV3 clone. There is a forum about them but that's pretty much dead. There are only like 6 videos about them on youtube and half of them are russian or smth.

Yes, there are a few MINT kits but they acutally do what you wrote. They throw the cheapest sensors they can find into one set and offer no documentation. (one example: 6923 by BanBao).

Is there anything that I'm missing?

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The Chinese generally don't bother to copy C+ / PU. Good decision IMO, developing further up PF was the better choice.

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38 minutes ago, 1974 said:

The plugs (which TLG cannot "protect" as it's not their design at all):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_jack_and_plug

Seems like you didn't do your research. That's not the "new" powered up plug.

38 minutes ago, 1974 said:

And none of them use the powered up plug. None of them have a rotation sensor. And some of them might not have proper protection which can result in melting plugs. Also, no documentation/specification on RPM etc.

38 minutes ago, 1974 said:

Rotation sensors : Just search for Hall sensors on ebay, aliexpress etc

Very old and cheap technology :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor

I know that it's not a new technology but no chinese motor contains rotation sensors (I'm not sure about KAZI EV5). Why if it's so easy and cheap? And still no word on precision of the sensors on aliexpress.

Edited by Tcm0

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14 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

I know that there are like 3 sellers on aliexpress selling powered up cables. But none of them have a "brandname" like cada or mould king and none of them make motors or something similar, just cables. No set that I know uses them. Yeah, I think that I'm informed about most of the stuff.

Yes, there is the KAZI EV5. That's one manufacturer. And an EV3 clone. There is a forum about them but that's pretty much dead. There are only like 6 videos about them on youtube and half of them are russian or smth.

Yes, there are a few MINT kits but they acutally do what you wrote. They throw the cheapest sensors they can find into one set and offer no documentation. (one example: 6923 by BanBao).

Is there anything that I'm missing?

Most likely, because the system isn't that popular. It's like asking why does no one make a 900$ monitor stand like Apple does? because no one except hipsters needs that. 
Right now, every "copy" company uses PF since hundreds of thousands (assumption, perhaps the number is even higher) of people own PF components, it is as simple as plug and play, and they're basically now the only companies making them - having no competition, and making sales to those people who don't want to throw out their perfectly good electrics because they've been "phased out".

The "brandnames" like CADa try making a better thing out of Lego's Technic system - not simply make a copy paste. MK is a pretty :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown: company due to all MOCers they screwed, but even they don't bother copying a system that is basically incompatible with anything and has quite severe limitations (honestly even basic arduino kits have much more options than a significantly more expensive C+/PU, and now many are compatible with Lego bricks...).

As far as "precision", "quality"... all is relative. The oh-so amazing lego motors have wires that disintegrate within 2 years, the servos are notorious for their bad design of the rotor, and PU has had the steering bug from the first day that has still not been addressed yet, and who's to say the problem with the wires won't affect these expensive pieces of plastic too, except now they also have sensors inside, meaning even more points for a fault. We also haven't had the system long enough so as to know whether their rotation sensors/encoders are good or not in the long run.
Certainy, people reported "melting plugs, exploding batteries"... on chinese stuff, but I'm pretty sure a significant number of those also bought those for ridiculously low prices with abysmal quality - though even my 5€ "dumb" servo is pretty good, only having some small visual defects on plastic surface, so I'm not sure what kind of garbage one has to buy... 

Now, don't get me wrong. Bad products do exist and are being sold. But we also cannot calssify a "premium" product as something good by default, since those have/can have defects too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, this is quite a quick derailment from price discussions already hahahh

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5 minutes ago, syclone said:

Most likely, because the system isn't that popular. It's like asking why does no one make a 900$ monitor stand like Apple does? because no one except hipsters needs that. 
Right now, every "copy" company uses PF since hundreds of thousands (assumption, perhaps the number is even higher) of people own PF components, it is as simple as plug and play, and they're basically now the only companies making them - having no competition, and making sales to those people who don't want to throw out their perfectly good electrics because they've been "phased out".

But I'm sure that there would be at least some kind of market for the new plug. New generations are coming. I really wonder about the actual market shares. Most of the "organized afols" seem to hate PUP but on the other side there must be some people buying C+ because otherwise lego would have discontinued it already. Or pump out less products.
Why not use both systems with all of their advantages? The stackabilty of PF and the sensors, speed control, more precise steering motors etc of PUP? You get even more remote channels if you use both systems in parallel (if you use a remote).
But is PF really a simple plug and play solution or is it only because people are used to PF? What about different remotes, battery boxes (some with speed control and some without), different receivers that can power different amounts of motors, the behaviour of the switches and extension wires etc?

10 minutes ago, syclone said:

The "brandnames" like CADa try making a better thing out of Lego's Technic system - not simply make a copy paste. MK is a pretty :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown: company due to all MOCers they screwed, but even they don't bother copying a system that is basically incompatible with anything and has quite severe limitations (honestly even basic arduino kits have much more options than a significantly more expensive C+/PU, and now many are compatible with Lego bricks...).

I bought 2 cada pro power system sets just recently. It's nice that they use their own shapes but it still has many issues. The servo has just 3 proper positions and the lights are way darker. The extension wire is missing the 9V adapter option. I haven't tested the other motors enough so far to give an objective opinion about them.
What do you mean by the limitations?

12 minutes ago, syclone said:

As far as "precision", "quality"... all is relative. The oh-so amazing lego motors have wires that disintegrate within 2 years, the servos are notorious for their bad design of the rotor, and PU has had the steering bug from the first day that has still not been addressed yet, and who's to say the problem with the wires won't affect these expensive pieces of plastic too, except now they also have sensors inside, meaning even more points for a fault. We also haven't had the system long enough so as to know whether their rotation sensors/encoders are good or not in the long run.

For me only the early power functions plug had a problem so far. They don't have a knobble that was added later. But the lego servo is one of the very few if not the only one that has more than 3 positions. Even that can't be copied properly by the chinese.
We don't have the chinese motors long enough so we don't know if they are good in the long run.

14 minutes ago, syclone said:

Certainy, people reported "melting plugs, exploding batteries"... on chinese stuff, but I'm pretty sure a significant number of those also bought those for ridiculously low prices with abysmal quality - though even my 5€ "dumb" servo is pretty good, only having some small visual defects on plastic surface, so I'm not sure what kind of garbage one has to buy... 

I think the 2 rechargeable battery boxed I heard of that smoked were by mould king and cada. The plug that melted was bluebrixx.

15 minutes ago, syclone said:

Now, don't get me wrong. Bad products do exist and are being sold. But we also cannot calssify a "premium" product as something good by default, since those have/can have defects too.

Sure. But there is guaranteed support for lego products. I'm not sure how long you'd get replacements on aliexpress etc. But yeah. Lego isn't perfect either.

16 minutes ago, syclone said:

Also, this is quite a quick derailment from price discussions already hahahh

Isn't the discussion of chinese and pf vs powered up also about the price in the end? ;)

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@Gray Gear Hm, sry looks like I'm incapable of seeing anything positive about his behavior. A few sentences (>> 1 year ago, I'm not up to date obviously) made me think about the line at which an "unfavorable" formulation or implication becomes a flat lie.

@Tcm0

I'm not sure if it's realy neccessary to know exactly the source of the price for each component :D If you realy want to dig into this: you can find images of the disassembled hubs and the prices of the chips for order sizes  > 10 000 can be found online, too ;) The manufacturer of the motors is a japanese company, but I forgot the name =( I do not know what the production of the sensor module inside the motor costs, but after very short but very intense googleling around x) it does not sound like 1 cent cheap if you want absolute positioning :D

And since even the price of the simple box is extremly high, I guess it's more about selling sets and not cannibalize mindstorms.

And in relation to the sets: There will be no "price war" with chinesen manufacturers (especially not mouldking of course and other companies are expensive, too), that would be a war they cannot win (and i think nobody ever won? :)). So did they become more expensive over time in relation to themselfs? I guess not, but the $200-noRC-set-with-functions-gap is very prominent since 2018, that's a long time - not very well thought I guess. That doesn't make published sets worse, it just makes them more unwanted :D

Edited by Gimmick

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4 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

I'm not sure if it's realy neccessary to know exactly the source of the price for each component :D If you realy want to dig into this: you can find images of the disassembled hubs and the prices of the chips for order sizes  > 10 000 can be found online, too ;) The manufacturer of the motors is a japanese company, but I forgot the name =( I do not know what the production of the sensor module inside the motor costs, but after very short but very intense googleling around x) it does not sound like 1 cent cheap if you want absolute positioning :D

It's also not just about the components that lego buys externally. The gears inside of the motors have to have limited play, development costs, microcontrollers and their programs etc.

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