Is Lego pure ABS or with additives?

[ks6349]

Does anyone know if Lego bricks have stabilizer, absorbers or blockers against degradation or color fading?

[JaBaCaDaBra]

Probably not, the chinese bricks however do not degrade.
I really hope tlg reads this

Edited September 2, 2021 by JaBaCaDaBra

[Lyichir]

3 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Probably not, the chinese bricks however do not degrade.
I really hope tlg reads this

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by chinese bricks not degrading? I'm certainly not aware of that (though since Lego has not been manufacturing in China for as long as they have in other countries, there's less data on long-term degradation available in general).

I know Lego used to use fire-retardant additives in bricks that was a cause of older bricks yellowing more easily. Lego has likely moved away from those specific compounds for standard ABS bricks (given that yellowing of older parts has become less prevalent over time) but I expect that there are other additives that have replaced them. And of course, Lego is more than just ABS—they use other plastic formulations for certain parts, many of which have their own particular additives, such as plasticizers that make parts more flexible, glitter, and phosphorescent dyes for glow-in-the-dark parts.

[Toastie]

48 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Probably not, the chinese bricks however do not degrade.

Huh? I have TLG bricks from 1965. Not degraded. Faded in color, yes, but structurally "degraded"? No way. That's 56 years.

And >no< sign of structural degradation - at all - for bricks I got after that, into 2021. Sure, bite marks, temperature too high, etc. but ABS does not degrade. It cannot. Not at ambient conditions, not exposed to UV etc. BTW, making plastic materials, which can possibly burn (and ABS can burn nicely), or promote such events and so on and so forth, brought into the market at the rate TLG does, forces them, per law, to retard any processes in a fire event. Of course there are fire retardants in ABS. Otherwise, they'd violate strict laws. As @Lyichir said: There are also more additive all over the ABS recipes. They need to be there. But one thing is for sure: LEGO bricks last forever, it is one of their major pitches. Folks will freak out when the Lambo or any other 300+ $/€ sets simply degrades into a hump of dust or water-soluble mess you can - without having a bad feeling - flush down the toilet.
With regard to the fire retardants: Science moves on -  the bromine containing retardants of the olden days (cheap, efficient, and "dangerous") have been replaced with other stuff. As efficient, less bad, and not so much affecting "white".
The Chinese ... I simply don't get this.

Best
Thorsten

[ks6349]

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Huh? I have TLG bricks from 1965. Not degraded. Faded in color, yes, but structurally "degraded"? No way. That's 56 years.

And >no< sign of structural degradation - at all - for bricks I got after that, into 2021. Sure, bite marks, temperature too high, etc. but ABS does not degrade. It cannot. Not at ambient conditions, not exposed to UV etc. BTW, making plastic materials, which can possibly burn (and ABS can burn nicely), or promote such events and so on and so forth, brought into the market at the rate TLG does, forces them, per law, to retard any processes in a fire event. Of course there are fire retardants in ABS. Otherwise, they'd violate strict laws. As @Lyichir said: There are also more additive all over the ABS recipes. They need to be there. But one thing is for sure: LEGO bricks last forever, it is one of their major pitches. Folks will freak out when the Lambo or any other 300+ $/€ sets simply degrades into a hump of dust or water-soluble mess you can - without having a bad feeling - flush down the toilet.
With regard to the fire retardants: Science moves on -  the bromine containing retardants of the olden days (cheap, efficient, and "dangerous") have been replaced with other stuff. As efficient, less bad, and not so much affecting "white".
The Chinese ... I simply don't get this.

Best
Thorsten

If you didn't once put the bricks under sunlight I think it wouldn't even fade in color after 56 years, but wow you have been into Lego for 56+ years???

But I do not agree with what you said about "Lego bricks last forever", I have a piece of small Lego base plates unconsciously left near my windows which get shined strongly in the summer, it became fragile and broke into half last night, it was put there for three years only :(

Edited September 2, 2021 by ks6349

[dr_spock]

Pure ABS is a translucent white in color.  Stabilizers are not  very enviro-friendly. They can slow down degradation of plastic waste in the environment. Depending on the types of stabilizer used, they can prevent oxidation reactions with air, UV light, heat, etc. 

[MAB]

Polymeric systems are rarely pure. Given how they are synthesised,  there will be variations in chain lengths and being a block copolymer, the blocks will vary slightly from chain to chain. And there is not one ABS, there are many variants changing the relative compositions. And LEGO uses different sources in different locations so will have a range of different ABS formulations in their products.

As dr_spock notes there will need to be dyes to give colour and most likely other surfactant like chemicals used to make the dyes both soluble and blendable in the polymer host.

Add to that not all LEGO parts are the same. Try dying torsos and hands using RIT dye. Torsos (and most other parts) dye easily, whereas hands barely change colour. No doubt a different formulation is used for them, as they are so thin but need to be more robust due to how they are used.

[Toastie]

8 hours ago, ks6349 said:

but wow you have been into Lego for 56+ years???

Yup, without the "+" though ...

Best
Thorsten

[Mylenium]

12 hours ago, ks6349 said:

Does anyone know if Lego bricks have stabilizer, absorbers or blockers against degradation or color fading?

Sure, and likely tons of it. ABS being based on three monomers alone is reason enough to necessitate extra substances to influence where those chains fuse and those would also act as overall stabilizers. Similarly, different colors may require different chemicals to integrate pigments. And then of course there's a whole host of intermediate auxiliary process chemicals. Point in case: While LEGO certainly go out of their way to keep things simple as well as customer and environmentally friendly even they can't avoid some of this...

Mylenium

[Peppermint_M]

10 hours ago, ks6349 said:

I have a piece of small Lego base plates unconsciously left near my windows which get shined strongly in the summer, it became fragile and broke into half last night, it was put there for three years only :(

Three years of direct sunlight is going to damage anything plastic. UV damage and heat damage would certainly affect any plastics no matter the quality/purity or price of the product.

The best way to ensure the longevity of the set is to keep it out of direct sunlight.

[Toastie]

11 hours ago, ks6349 said:

But I do not agree with what you said about "Lego bricks last forever"

Well I said "this is one of TLG's pitches" ;)

See, sunlight gets you a nice sun tan - provided, you are careful. When you are not, you get serious sun burns - and chances are you may develop skin cancer a couple of years down the road. At least for pale types like me. Now, that takes a couple of hours (the burn). 3 years "only" would have toasted me to char coal at best. Although there is less UV when the sun-light shines through a window (glass), there still is - Beer's Law and all that. So: residual UV light * exposure time = disintegrating bricks.

BTW if have found a very secure place for LEGO: We visited ASML in Holland yesterday, the folks that make these EUV scanners for the production of the latest generation chippies in 5 nm technology. They want us to take gas composition measurements at an EUV test rig, basically this 13.5 nm "lamp" ;) with a test vessel attached to it. Now, the thing is, half of the city of Veldhoven seems to be a "clean hall area". So in essence, I believe a good place for ABS bricks/plates and stuff would be a clean room/hall, @ 20°C +/- 0.2°C, with not too much of carefully filtered light (VIS only), and they will last forever. Getting into the cleanroom clothing sucks but other than that it will certainly work. 

I am kidding, of course.

Best
Thorsten       

[1963maniac]

I have Lego dating back to the late 1950s and the plastic is still in great condition!! And, I also still love 'em (for 58 years)!!! I am not worried that they will ever degrade.

[ks6349]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:24 PM, Peppermint_M said:

Three years of direct sunlight is going to damage anything plastic. UV damage and heat damage would certainly affect any plastics no matter the quality/purity or price of the product.

The best way to ensure the longevity of the set is to keep it out of direct sunlight.

How about "indirect" sunlight? I'm putting my Lego in a room without windows curtain, outside sun is strong but I'm not putting my Lego near the windows

[Mylenium]

You can't avoid some degradation, but the key point is to avoid high energy light types like UV. That's basically the same problem as when conserving paintings with synthetic pigments. Even "wrong" interior lighting can make them fade. Overall you should be fine, though, if you don't abuse your window sill as a shelf all the time. The most exposed item in my household, a custom black Technic frame construct used as a picture holder for photography, does not show any signs of wear that can be attributed to sun light despite being near a window all the time for a few years...

Mylenium

[Faefrost]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:30 PM, ks6349 said:

If you didn't once put the bricks under sunlight I think it wouldn't even fade in color after 56 years, but wow you have been into Lego for 56+ years???

But I do not agree with what you said about "Lego bricks last forever", I have a piece of small Lego base plates unconsciously left near my windows which get shined strongly in the summer, it became fragile and broke into half last night, it was put there for three years only :(

Is it a baseplate or simply a regular large plate? Actual baseplates are vacu formed styrene. Not ABS. 

Older bricks from the 60's should not yellow as they predate the requirements mandating the bromine based fire retardents be added to plastic used in toys and electronics. 

Any plastic will degrade and grow brittle over time. ABS just does this much more slowly than other common plastics such as polystyrene or polyvinylchloride (PVC). 

[ks6349]

4 hours ago, Mylenium said:

You can't avoid some degradation, but the key point is to avoid high energy light types like UV. That's basically the same problem as when conserving paintings with synthetic pigments. Even "wrong" interior lighting can make them fade. Overall you should be fine, though, if you don't abuse your window sill as a shelf all the time. The most exposed item in my household, a custom black Technic frame construct used as a picture holder for photography, does not show any signs of wear that can be attributed to sun light despite being near a window all the time for a few years...

Mylenium

Unfortunately I am not living in a big big house, space is really tight, I cannot avoid abusing my window sill as a shelf all the time. How about putting them in a black or opaque storage box near windows?

Edited September 6, 2021 by ks6349

[Toastie]

18 minutes ago, ks6349 said:

Unfortunately I am not living in a big big house, space is really tight, I cannot avoid abusing my window sill as a shelf all the time. How about putting them in a black or opaque storage box near windows?

That will certainly work. The storage boxes will probably degrade, but you will notice and can replace them.

Best
Thorsten

[dr_spock]

1 hour ago, ks6349 said:

Unfortunately I am not living in a big big house, space is really tight, I cannot avoid abusing my window sill as a shelf all the time. How about putting them in a black or opaque storage box near windows?

I had 1980s LEGO on a shelf that received sunset sunlight from 1990s to 2000s.  The whites aren't so white.  Some pieces don't have the same clutch power while others seem ok.  The stickers are ok.

If you like that chemistry stuff, here is a long read:  Photodegradation and photostabilization of polymers

[ks6349]

2 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

I had 1980s LEGO on a shelf that received sunset sunlight from 1990s to 2000s.  The whites aren't so white.  Some pieces don't have the same clutch power while others seem ok.  The stickers are ok.

If you like that chemistry stuff, here is a long read:  Photodegradation and photostabilization of polymers

In fact 20 years ago I was excellent in chemistry but didn't proceed in this path so now forget almost everything about chem

[Toastie]

20 hours ago, dr_spock said:

The stickers are ok.

Wow - that must be some nice stickers! The ones I had exposed to light and dry warm air (SoCal) literally fell apart. But I believe this is also dependent on sticker adhesive, sticker thickness (I believe they are now much "thinner" than they were back then) and coloring scheme.

20 hours ago, dr_spock said:

The whites aren't so white.

You know what? I have come to the conclusion that almost nothing "in real use" out there is really bright white. The weathering of white adds to the appearance. As does the fading of colors. It adds ... a bit (a tiny bit) of "reality". As if LEGO should be anywhere near reality - LEGO is always imagination - but it helps. 10016, the My own Train tanker car, looks so much nicer when seasoned a little - and the white quarter cylinders do season nicely.

20 hours ago, ks6349 said:

In fact 20 years ago I was excellent in chemistry but didn't proceed in this path so now forget almost everything about chem

It's never too late ;) begin with the document @dr_spock was pointing to, get a Chem1 text book, do the problems, and off you go again

Best
Thorsten