LEGO Trains Powered Up vs. Power Functions

[sp1984]

Hello

My first post here.

Found some posts regarding the comparison of Powered Up (PU) and Power Functions (PF), but it was rather related to Technic. Couldn't find any similar for trains.

So I am considering to buy 60198 Lego Cargo Train which is powered by Powered Up.

However, I read here about PU system that it is inferior to PF system, as considering it in LEGO Technic. So how it is in the Trains department?

As far as I see:

PF for trains has remote IR intutitive controller with two knobs; for A channel and B channel with max. 8 trains to control (with 4 controllers).

Additionally battery box and seperated IR recevier is needed.

PU has bluetooth remote controller, so clunky smartphone control can be omitted? But is PU remote controller in any point inferior to older PF controller?

PU battery box has embedd bt receiver so less space is needed inside the locomotive, so it seems its better (less flexible though?)

 

Coming back to 60198 buying consideration; I saw some offers of used PF systems for trains (separated or with a locomotive), but they are quite pricey: 55 EU for control set, and 100EU with control+locomotive (from 60052 or 7939 set).

So is it better to buy this new set with PU or invest into older used (but better?) PF sets?

Kind regards

 

[Tcm0]

PUP remote works just fine as long as you stick to one train motor per train (or one motor per hub). You have the better bluetooth connection (but it has a timeout so the train stops if the signal is lost) and 10 speed steps per direction instead of 7.

It gets more complicated if you want to use other motors than the train motors because only the train motor has speed control in the default behaviour. You have to use the app or a selfmade pybricks program if you want to use 2 motors with 1 hub or other motor types. Also, you can't sync motors by plugging them in the same port because you can't stack the cables.

That brings us to another disadvantage: you can only use 2 motors OR 1 motor and 1 light OR 1 motor and 1 sensor with one hub because you can't stack the cables and the city hub has just 2 plugs.

On the other side you have sensors so automation is much easier than before.

The prices for PUP on bricklink are usually cheaper. Also, the city passenger train set gets down to 70-80 euros from time to time.

[JopieK]

It is comparing apples and oranges. In the PF times Train people were complaining about the IR line of sight. They had good reasons I did not misuse it but I made an Arduino-based IR 'floodlight' which could possibly reap havoc at large  layouts (just because I could ;)). Bluetooth low energy (Powered Up) is better if you use up to two actuators. But if you need more you could even use Spike to control your train though. Of course the PF XL motors were really, really powerful but for most trains they are overkill. The PF motor is according to tests from @Philo slightly more powerful than PU, but it is not that much I think. I like BLE advantages much better especially since people including @Lok24 are working on a system to rule them all using MicroPython (gives you direct control of the microcontroller so you can circumvent issues with timeouts etc like @Tcm0 mentioned).

[Tcm0]

5 minutes ago, JopieK said:

But if you need more you could even use Spike to control your train though.

That's not so easy :D I tried to fit a SPIKE Prime hub into a city passenger train with all of the fancy stuff (motor, lights, sensor and sound) and it worked but the middle car had to be made a bit bigger to fit the hub and there is like negative space left.

 

[Sunil766]

As someone who left to the dark ages during the 9v era and came back last year for PU (completely oversleeping PF) I found myself in a similar situation. 

I then bought the horizon express with a set of PF and later 60197 with PU. I must say that PU felt much sleaker, smoother and fresher. Automation is easier. More space and less hassle with cables. But only 2 ports is a shame of course. However even in my living room I seemingly had connection issues with PF and it felt like the HE wasn't really doing what I wanted it to do. 

Generally with all the battery waste (also I never really know how long and if it goes the fastest it can go - intransparency over charging level and effort to change batteries really puts new off) I am happy that I have my old 9v stuff. 

2 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

That's not so easy :D I tried to fit a SPIKE Prime hub into a city passenger train with all of the fancy stuff (motor, lights, sensor and sound) and it worked but the middle car had to be made a bit bigger to fit the hub and there is like negative space left.

 

Why does it sound like the train is almost derailing? Didn't have time to watch the video completely yet but good to hear a proper moin again - greetings from Oldenburg

[Ts__]

I was at a big Lego train exhibition in Germany last weekend and I can say PU was clearly easier to use than PF.
Yes, a loco with PU stops the train out of radio range. But this is not always a disadvantage. I have seen several PF users running after a loco, desperately trying to stop their PF loco before the crash. You have to get really close in the sunlight....

Although there were many PU users present, there was not really any interference or obstruction between users.

When building PU consumes less space. But there are also disadvantages: connectors e.g. not stackable.
Can therefore also be a problem.

I myself have 6 locomotives on display. 5 with PU and one with BuWizz. No real PF...

Thomas

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ts__

[Toastie]

All that above -

- and with PU [provided >currently< the right combinations of hub and motors are made (TLG needs to eliminate some bugs in e.g. the CityHub)] you can run your trains so smoothly as you will never be able with PF. Yes, sure, use 2 - 4 PF XL motors in your loco - it will run smoothly, because you bolted it down on power. And: You'll drain your batteries in no-time.

With smart control of the motors, they'll adjust to demand; I find that - hmm - more "appropriate" in the world we live in. Rather than do the power-overkill-and-apparent-"endless"-power-supply approach.

 

Best
Thorsten 

[TuffTuffTuff]

If you want versatile motor options but also advanced light and sound I would go for Power Functions + PFX brick. I only miss a physical control with that setup.

[dr_spock]

If you're starting new, PU would probably be the better way to go.  PF will only get more rare (and expensive) now that it is no longer in production.

I find PU to work better with our large layout at model train shows. We don't need to have line of sight with the PU Remote Control.  PF works perfectly fine for our small 2-4 table layout at outdoor picnic events.

If you already have an investment in PF train motors...reuse two PF train motors on a PU hub.

[Lok24]

Hi @sp1984

most of the things are already mentioned.

- PU offers the possibility to use motores which allow load control.
With PF trains you can't drive slowly without stopping in curves or switches.

- Trains don't stop necessarily when getting out of BT control, and they dont't have  only 10 steps to run.
this is a property of the hub firmware only and/or using the remote or Powered Up App.
It is not a property of Powered Up itself.

- Battery control is easy as well, because software can ask the hub about battery level.

- There are no extension cables with PU

- no limitation to 8 channels

What means: it depends on your neeeds and requirements.
PU offers a lot' more possibilities.

Find an idea of using Powered up here:

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Lok24

[Black Knight]

If you are open to 3rd parties, the future of PF might not look as dark as painted. There are currently at least 5 other manufacturers producing motors with PF-style connectors: I expect we sooner see the EOL of PU than we run out of 3rd party PF components.

TLG's patent on the PF connector ran out several years ago, so you now see motors and also battery+control systems from companies like BlueBrixx (German), Mould King, CADA and Kazi (Chinese). They more or less copy the TLG motors but all have a imho better battery box and controller (than TLG's PF). BlueBrixx has a NiMH-based rechargeable battery box (a little smaller than TLG) with a train-focused remote based on 2.4 GHz RC. Mould King and CADA use rechargeable Lithium battery boxes (also one brick smaller than TLG's box) with RC-based remotes, but at least MK can also connect via Bluetooth to your smartphone. All of those options are legal, no patents or other rights are infringed by these solutions.

So if you are invested in PF already, prefer rechargeable systems, need a smaller battery box or are a penny pincher, those might be an option for you. Just like PF and PU, none of those are 100% perfect either, they all have quirks of their own.

[Berthil]

11 hours ago, Ts__ said:

Yes, a loco with PU stops the train out of radio range

The PU Team at TLG is aware of this. In the future there might be an option what should happen if the signal is lost, either stop or keep going.

That said (was mentioned before but may be not clear enough), with Pybricks you can flash your program to the PU hub so the train can run stand alone (without device and bluetooth connection). With that the connection issue is not a problem.
It seems flashing to the hub will also be available in the near future from PU itself.

With Pybricks (Beta at  the moment) you can connect the PU controller directly to the hub and control the train with the controller. The controller can be programmed to let it behave the way you want (via the hub).
Already mentioned here is automation of the train with the color/distance sensor and colored tiles.

In the near future the PU App will have more customization build in to control PU devices.
TLG is working on improving the PU documentation from within the PU App.

The new Spike hub has a rechargeable battery build in and has similar size as the PU train hub, but unfortunately again only 2 ports.

So I would say with all those new developments going on, PU is the future and the way to go when compared to PF.
PF motors are discontinued by TLG but there are Chinese manufacturers with good quality clones (Mould King).

Edited August 19, 2021 by Berthil
typos

[Tcm0]

13 hours ago, Sunil766 said:

Why does it sound like the train is almost derailing? Didn't have time to watch the video completely yet but good to hear a proper moin again - greetings from Oldenburg

To quote the cars movies: "I am speed" :D Greetings from Hamburg.

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

TLG's patent on the PF connector ran out several years ago, so you now see motors and also battery+control systems from companies like BlueBrixx (German), Mould King, CADA and Kazi (Chinese). They more or less copy the TLG motors but all have a imho better battery box and controller (than TLG's PF). BlueBrixx has a NiMH-based rechargeable battery box (a little smaller than TLG) with a train-focused remote based on 2.4 GHz RC. Mould King and CADA use rechargeable Lithium battery boxes (also one brick smaller than TLG's box) with RC-based remotes, but at least MK can also connect via Bluetooth to your smartphone. All of those options are legal, no patents or other rights are infringed by these solutions.

You get what you pay for. The BB train motors have serveral issues (one of them beeing that often the holes for the axles aren't perfectly round). Also, the LEGO PF rechargeable battery lasts more than double the time of the BB one. And it has a timeout after 16mins which might be bad for a bigger layout. And the controller of BB fells like crap because it only detects every 4th turn.

A really good software for controlling serveral trains is https://lgauge.com/article.php?article=trains/gallery/articles/bap for windows. It supports more than 10 PUP hubs (or sbricks if you want to go that route) at once.

[JopieK]

17 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

That's not so easy :D I tried to fit a SPIKE Prime hub into a city passenger train with all of the fancy stuff (motor, lights, sensor and sound) and it worked but the middle car had to be made a bit bigger to fit the hub and there is like negative space left.

Ah, but probably the newest Spike for educational use (Luly, strange name I think but who cares about names), focusing on younger kids is much easier than the indeed bulky large Spike.

https://fllcasts.com/materials/1246-luly-small-lego-education-spike-prime-competition-robot-with-3d-building-instructions

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

You get what you pay for. [...] Also, the LEGO PF rechargeable battery lasts more than double the time of the BB one. And it has a timeout after 16mins which might be bad for a bigger layout. And the controller of BB fells like crap because it only detects every 4th turn.

That's like comparing apples to oranges. One is a premium-brand, out-of-production, 90+ EUR lithium power-source-only box; the other a NiMH-battery+RC-receiver-box that costs 15 EUR. The BB stuff is just fine if you are e.g. playing with your kids (bonus: No lithium!). If you are dead-serious railroader and don't mind the money, you are going 9V tracks + DCC anyway. Before getting the old PF rechargeable battery, I'd recommend a Buwizz for that kind of money.

[Lok24]

3 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

A really good software for controlling serveral trains is https://lgauge.com/article.php?article=trains/gallery/articles/bap for windows. It supports more than 10 PUP hubs (or sbricks if you want to go that route) at once.

Yes, but not on a big layout, or you have to take your WIN 10 laptop with you ....

[zephyr1934]

First off, on the original question, for someone starting into trains: PF or PU? Go with whatever is cheapest, so that would probably be PU unless you can find an old PF set complete. If you are just running the set as is, either system will work fine in your house. It is only when you get to large layouts or heavy trains that you start noticing differences in performance. For these latter points, ALMOST everything I can think of has been mentioned already in this thread.

Though there is one more point that hasn't been mentioned- wheels. Like the power system, for the sets, the wheels they come with should work fine (possible exceptions are the Maersk train and a pair of Horizon Express sets). I do not want to expand this thread even further with a discussion on wheels, there are already some lengthy (and informative) threads on those in this forum. Just two points to keep in mind: (1) wheels with technic axles cause a lot of friction so try to minimize their use (that's the source of the problem in the Maersk and HE sets), but they are unavoidable if you build steam. (2) If/when you get into large/heavy trains you will probably need to shift to ball bearing wheels from 3rd parties, but that need should not arise when building sets.

If/when you find yourself building trains that are larger/heavier than found in the sets then this thread will become invaluable.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, TuffTuffTuff said:

If you want versatile motor options but also advanced light and sound I would go for Power Functions + PFX brick. I only miss a physical control with that setup.

The PFx brick can be configured with an IR receiver to work with the PF controller

 

 

5 hours ago, Berthil said:

In the near future the PU App will have more customization build in to control PU devices.
TLG is working on improving the PU documentation from within the PU App. 

That's what I hate about TLG, they build this wildly powerful PU system and then only release minimal documentation for it. Hopefully you are right about the improved documentation.

[Lok24]

1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

Just two points to keep in mind: (1) wheels with technic axles cause a lot of friction so try to minimize their use (that's the source of the problem in the Maersk and HE sets), but they are unavoidable if you build steam. (2) If/when you get into large/heavy trains you will probably need to shift to ball bearing wheels from 3rd parties, but that need should not arise when building sets.

But using tacho motors you can run with rotations/sec and the load balancing does the rest.

1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

That's what I hate about TLG, they build this wildly powerful PU system and then only release minimal documentation for it. Hopefully you are right about the improved documentation.

They promised for this year.....

 

[sp1984]

Hey All of You

thank you for your valuable remarks regarding presented topic.

Another doubt about PU; is it prone to wi-fi interference?

I read one review of 60197 set (passenger train) on brickset:

Quote

So I bought two, because you kinda have to, to make it look right, which irritates me even more that I wasted my money. As an AFOL I do a lot of shows/events and simply put, the Powered Up system is worthless in this kind of public environment. I know that was put out as a warning, and they were spot on, way to many bluetooth and wifi signals in the air and it will never connect, so we converted it to the trusty PF system. I get it not working in the shows, but it doesn't work in my house either. Living in a city, where everyone pretty much lives on top of one another, way to many competing signals. Even in my own house, if I want to use the PU system, I have to go and start turning off everyones cell phones and believe it or not, our smart TV. go figure on that one. I find it to be a total pain and just not worth it. My advice if you want the train, wait for it to go on a deep discount, I know of two other people that returned them, because they just couldn't get them to work and they were not going to deal with the headache. BUT, if you live in the middle of no where, with not a lot of airwaves interference, than I would suspect it is a great system that eliminates the line of sight distance problem that PF has.

Is it really that bad? I live in flat in apartament where wifi net is strong but don't have any issues with bluetooth devices like wireless headphones and so.

Regards

[dr_spock]

1 hour ago, sp1984 said:

Hey All of You

thank you for your valuable remarks regarding presented topic.

Another doubt about PU; is it prone to wi-fi interference?

I read one review of 60197 set (passenger train) on brickset:

Is it really that bad? I live in flat in apartament where wifi net is strong but don't have any issues with bluetooth devices like wireless headphones and so.

Regards

If your other bluetooth stuff works, then I don't think it would be as bad as that reviewer's experience.  Performance can also depend on the bluetooth software/hardware of smart device used.  There is one way to find out.  Borrow someone's 60197 train set and try it in your location.  A spectrum analyzer is useful tool to diagnosis interference problems.

[zephyr1934]

17 hours ago, sp1984 said:

Is it really that bad? I live in flat in apartament where wifi net is strong but don't have any issues with bluetooth devices like wireless headphones and so. 

You should have no bluetooth problems at home. It is on large layouts at shows where the problems typically arise.

[Black Knight]

Bluetooth and WiFi both use the 2.4 GHz band, so they do use the same resource and will interfere. The question is, how severe is it? This depends on the existing traffic in your space: As being said, on public layouts with lots of visitors, everyone bringing his smartphone and Bluetooth headsets and using some public wifi: your packet loss can be spectacular. The good news is, that for commanding the trains, you need very little bandwidth, so you should not see any problems until the 2.4 GHz band is pretty used up already. If it's your kids streaming videos that cause the problems, you can configure your WiFi to use the 5 GHz band (if it's at least 802.11ac from 2013).

[sp1984]

Hey, one more question:

Does powered up remote controller (item no. 88010) is able to control train's speed in proportional way like potentiometer? It was possible in PF remote controller (two knobs), not sure it is possible with PU.

[dr_spock]

11 minutes ago, sp1984 said:

Hey, one more question:

Does powered up remote controller (item no. 88010) is able to control train's speed in proportional way like potentiometer? It was possible in PF remote controller (two knobs), not sure it is possible with PU.

Yes, you get proportional speed control with the PU remote when the PU train motor is connected to the PU hub.   With non-train PU motors connected to the PU hub, the PU remote is on/off like the old PF IR remote (no knobs).  You can also create your own control profile with the Powered UP app on your smart phone/tablet to read the PU remote and output to the non-train motors proportionally.

[Lok24]

13 hours ago, sp1984 said:

Does powered up remote controller (item no. 88010) is able to control train's speed in proportional way like potentiometer? It was possible in PF remote controller (two knobs), not sure it is possible with PU.

Only with the train Motor, you the can increase speed in 10 Steps. (with PF: 7 Steps)

Otherwise you shold use
- Powered Up App
- Brickcontroller 2
- BUWIZZ App
- Pybricks
- Microcontroller

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lok24