Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Class Development Discussion

[Waterbrick Down]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:37 PM, Duvors said:

So I've just gone and changed the syntax of the class document to represent the proposed name change for combat checks. I've also altered the Detective's action slightly and changed the effect of the Hacker's 'Vulnerable Circuitry' trait.

Also, inspired by the Berserker's role a a melee class and the Gunslinger's short range role, I've made provisional Soldier and Sniper classes as long range and artillery specialists specifically.

Good edits on Detective and Hacker.

I'm still not sold on Soldier and Sniper. Berserker and Gunslinger aren't primarily meant to be the a respective "weapon range" class, they're intended to represent a particular archtype and their traits/actions should do more to evoke that archtype than they do the mechanical "weapon range" playstyle. While one could argue that Soldier and Sniper are archtypes, I think they're better embodied by things like the Warrior/Guardian/Espater and the Assassin/Outlander respectively.

Mechanics wise, the Sniper I think has too many synergistic abilities. They're Lucky if they don't move, which is likely given their tendency to artillery weapons, 3's count as successes if they don't have anyone near them, which again is likely given their tendency to artillery weapons, and their action keeps enemies from getting near them in the first place, albeit with a lower chance of success.

Soldier is a little more balanced, I can see their action being used pretty often which might make it a bit too overpowered. Add onto that their first trait and their will probably be quite a few rounds where they essentially perform three actions (2 combat checks + 1 Defend) which is a bit much.

[Duvors]

6 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm still not sold on Soldier and Sniper. Berserker and Gunslinger aren't primarily meant to be the a respective "weapon range" class, they're intended to represent a particular archtype and their traits/actions should do more to evoke that archtype than they do the mechanical "weapon range" playstyle. While one could argue that Soldier and Sniper are archtypes, I think they're better embodied by things like the Warrior/Guardian/Espater and the Assassin/Outlander respectively.

As I've said before, I don't really think the Outlander embodies anything well at the moment (something you still haven't gotten back to me on). But the idea was prompted by the concept of single-proficiency classes Zepher mentioned.

12 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Mechanics wise, the Sniper I think has too many synergistic abilities. They're Lucky if they don't move, which is likely given their tendency to artillery weapons, 3's count as successes if they don't have anyone near them, which again is likely given their tendency to artillery weapons, and their action keeps enemies from getting near them in the first place, albeit with a lower chance of success.

That was intentional for the most part, though I'd argue it's relatively easy to set up a situation where they only get one or either of their bonuses, and their action is less efficient than outright attacking so it wouldn't be used most of the time. Always moving the target away would be problematic though, how do you feel about random directions?

17 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Soldier is a little more balanced, I can see their action being used pretty often which might make it a bit too overpowered. Add onto that their first trait and their will probably be quite a few rounds where they essentially perform three actions (2 combat checks + 1 Defend) which is a bit much.

Actually, no. They can't add their first trait to their action because it specifically triggers on the Attack action. Fusillade is an entirely separate action.

[Waterbrick Down]

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

As I've said before, I don't really think the Outlander embodies anything well at the moment (something you still haven't gotten back to me on). But the idea was prompted by the concept of single-proficiency classes Zepher mentioned.

You're right sorry about that. Point taken about single proficiency classes, if that's the case I'd still prefer to see a class with a more thematic archtype than just a soldier or sniper.

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

That was intentional for the most part, though I'd argue it's relatively easy to set up a situation where they only get one or either of their bonuses, and their action is less efficient than outright attacking so it wouldn't be used most of the time. Always moving the target away would be problematic though, how do you feel about random directions?

I guess my point is we don't have a lot of classes that are specifically geared for all of their attributes to synergistically work with one another. I guess my main concern is that I'd like to keep from having both a Lucky and a "3's become successes" trait in the same class as I think that'll swing the statistics too much in the player's favor. I feel if the movement action is random, it'll almost never get used as there is no predictability to it. How about something like a disabling shot that reduces a target's Velocity? It's not as powerful, but it still has some benefit.

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

Actually, no. They can't add their first trait to their action because it specifically triggers on the Attack action. Fusillade is an entirely separate action.

Ah I was reading the trait as just requiring an attack, not the Attack action. Still seems like a lot of extra-action attributes, perhaps just limit the class to one?

Regarding the Outlander Class

On 9/5/2021 at 9:40 PM, Duvors said:

A suggestion: switch around the Outlander's 'Tough' and the Courier's 'I Got This'. Rename the first to 'Haven't Gotten This Far' and the second to 'Resourceful'. As a possible further change, remove 'Focus', give it's effect to the Crusader's 'Smite' and replace it with the following;

 - Splint (Action) - Make a Survival Check on an adjacent ally (can target self). Target receives Vitality = # successes. Vitality gained this way disappears at the end of combat.

That might be a little too derivative of the Medic to follow through with, but you get the idea. Something that allows the Survival proficiency to contribute directly to your continued survival.

I'm OK with the Crusader's 'Smite' action as is, I do like the idea of swapping the 'Tough' for 'I Got this' though. I feel the 'Splint" action might be too similar to the Medic's, how's something like this?

- Marking the Quarry (Action) - Cause a target to become *Marked*, your Offensive Combat Checks vs. Marked Enemies ignore Optimal Range penalties.

[Duvors]

22 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

You're right sorry about that. Point taken about single proficiency classes, if that's the case I'd still prefer to see a class with a more thematic archtype than just a soldier or sniper.

I guess my point is we don't have a lot of classes that are specifically geared for all of their attributes to synergistically work with one another. I guess my main concern is that I'd like to keep from having both a Lucky and a "3's become successes" trait in the same class as I think that'll swing the statistics too much in the player's favor. I feel if the movement action is random, it'll almost never get used as there is no predictability to it. How about something like a disabling shot that reduces a target's Velocity? It's not as powerful, but it still has some benefit.

Ah I was reading the trait as just requiring an attack, not the Attack action. Still seems like a lot of extra-action attributes, perhaps just limit the class to one?

All of this is fine, Supporting Fire can be altered to simply defend someone in weapon range and snipers can be given a sort of stealth bonus for not moving. Ultimately however you're probably correct in that they're thematically weak.

 

26 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm OK with the Crusader's 'Smite' action as is, I do like the idea of swapping the 'Tough' for 'I Got this' though. I feel the 'Splint" action might be too similar to the Medic's, how's something like this?

- Marking the Quarry (Action) - Cause a target to become *Marked*, your Offensive Combat Checks vs. Marked Enemies ignore Optimal Range penalties.

The thing is this overlaps both thematically and mechanically with both of the Assassin's traits. At this point I'd just keep focus but make it more like the Scholar's action; it can be applied to any check but only a limited number of times.

On the subject of the Assassin, how does Mark interact with Blinded or 'hard' cover like concrete walls? It honestly seems kind of vague.

[Waterbrick Down]

19 minutes ago, Duvors said:

The thing is this overlaps both thematically and mechanically with both of the Assassin's traits. At this point I'd just keep focus but make it more like the Scholar's action; it can be applied to any check but only a limited number of times.

On the subject of the Assassin, how does Mark interact with Blinded or 'hard' cover like concrete walls? It honestly seems kind of vague.

Shoot, I forgot Assassin already had mark stuff. I guess I was thinking Assassin = Stealthy OHKO type character while Outlander = Hunter type character. The 'Mark' trait was to ignore things like cover. You can't shoot around corners, but you can definitely hit things behind Hard Cover and while Blinded.

Outlander thematically I still think probably fits best as the survival/tracker/hunter type archtype.

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down So Assassins can shoot through solid concrete then?

At this moment my thoughts are the following:

Outlander, switch Tough with I Got This, leave the rest untouched.

Assassin, Turn Ambush into a trait of some kind and make Mark their action, something like what you just proposed but with the effect of cancelling out obscurement rather than range.

[Waterbrick Down]

29 minutes ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down So Assassins can shoot through solid concrete then?

At this moment my thoughts are the following:

Outlander, switch Tough with I Got This, leave the rest untouched.

Assassin, Turn Ambush into a trait of some kind and make Mark their action, something like what you just proposed but with the effect of cancelling out obscurement rather than range.

 Part of me wants to say yes and the logical part says no. Perhaps they can pierce through Armor?

I'm good with the switching of the Outlander's trait.

Ambush could simply add Stealth proficiency to the first Offensive Combat Check in a fight. The limitation isn't bad, the intention was to make it such that they could hit their target even if they were trying to hide.

[Duvors]

14 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

 Part of me wants to say yes and the logical part says no. Perhaps they can pierce through Armor?

I'm good with the switching of the Outlander's trait.

Ambush could simply add Stealth proficiency to the first Offensive Combat Check in a fight. The limitation isn't bad, the intention was to make it such that they could hit their target even if they were trying to hide.

 I don't think it'll come up often enough to be an issue, but at some point we may have to distinguish between cover and obscurement.

I was thinking Ambush could add to initiative rolls in the manner of the gunslinger, but damage is good too.

Ambush could also be done as a damage bonus when attacking from a hidden position, with the side effect of revealing yourself.

[Waterbrick Down]

32 minutes ago, Duvors said:

 I don't think it'll come up often enough to be an issue, but at some point we may have to distinguish between cover and obscurement.

I was thinking Ambush could add to initiative rolls in the manner of the gunslinger, but damage is good too.

Ambush could also be done as a damage bonus when attacking from a hidden position, with the side effect of revealing yourself.

Yeah, I'd prefer not to just copy Gunslinger's schtick. Not a bad idea in a damage bonus from hiding though.

[Duvors]

4 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Yeah, I'd prefer not to just copy Gunslinger's schtick. Not a bad idea in a damage bonus from hiding though.

[Duvors]

Having looked it over, I think the blue classes are fully finalized and ready for release. I can't think of any further alterations to make to them without seeing them in action first.

[Waterbrick Down]

17 hours ago, Duvors said:

Having looked it over, I think the blue classes are fully finalized and ready for release. I can't think of any further alterations to make to them without seeing them in action first.

Agreed, I'm making slides for each similar to the library. I was thinking about trying to color categorize them by certain roles to help people who know they want to play a certain mechanical style without having to read every single class. Thoughts? I figure if people want to play a certain theme, like a nature magic user, it'll be easy to just find 'Druid', but if people want to play a high "DPS" or "defender" type role they may not know where to start.

[Duvors]

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Agreed, I'm making slides for each similar to the library. I was thinking about trying to color categorize them by certain roles to help people who know they want to play a certain mechanical style without having to read every single class. Thoughts? I figure if people want to play a certain theme, like a nature magic user, it'll be easy to just find 'Druid', but if people want to play a high "DPS" or "defender" type role they may not know where to start.

Not particularly keen on the idea, but I don't see the harm in it. I wish you'd stop saying 'DPS' though, that refers to damage per second and doesn't really fit with how maximizing damage works in-game.

[Waterbrick Down]

1 hour ago, Duvors said:

Not particularly keen on the idea, but I don't see the harm in it. I wish you'd stop saying 'DPS' though, that refers to damage per second and doesn't really fit with how maximizing damage works in-game.

Sorry, old habit of thinking of roles. But I agree, I think it'll be more help than clutter. While you and I and a few others are intimately aware of each class's niche, I don't think the general player will be, so whatever we can do to help folks not need to wade through a bunch of content unless they want to, the better.